Meta-Wiki - User contributions [en]

Wikivoyage/Logo

2015-11-16T12:13:18Z

JamesA: /* Word mark */ I had to look everywhere through the archives to find out the font of the current logo

{{info|For the 2013 logo selection process, ongoing, please see '''[[Wikivoyage/Logo_2013]]'''}}
{{divbox|blue||As many of you know, the community held a contest to design and decide upon the new logo that would come to represent Wikivoyage, the latest open and collaborative project to be hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. After review of quite a few fantastic entries and much debate, the logo below was decided upon by community consensus.

Unfortunately, both the Foundation and several members of the community discovered that the eventually chosen logo bore a striking resemblance to the World Trade Organization (“WTO”) logo: [[:File:Wto logo.svg]]

At that time, the Foundation reviewed the two logos and believed that, while some risk existed, there were significant enough differences between the designs and the markets the two organizations occupied for both logos to co-exist.

Since then, the Foundation has received a cease-and-desist letter from the WTO, requesting that we change the logo. While we wish that the WTO agreed with our assessment that the two logos contain substantial differences and could co-exist, we understand their concern.
We still believe that there are some significant differences between the Wikivoyage logo and the WTO, however, such arguments are not guaranteed to win if we were to legally oppose this request because there are also some substantial similarities. With this in mind, as well as the fact that the Wikivoyage logo is still relatively new and has not had a chance to build significant brand recognition yet, we believe the better solution is to hold a new community contest for a new logo.

We believe that the community is the best body to decide what logo should represent their hard work and hope that interested community members will take this opportunity to once again showcase their creativity and talent by submitting designs. The WTO has been very understanding of the Wikimedia movement’s values and need for community consensus and has agreed to grant us ample time to develop a new logo through community processes. (Please see the proposed [[Logo contest procedure]].) That said, we hope to begin the process of community consultation and input in the next few days so that the new logo can be in place by the end of July. With that, we look forward to seeing new designs!

 
[[User:Mpaulson (WMF)|Michelle Paulson]] 
Legal and Community Advocacy 
Wikimedia Foundation}}

Wikivoyage logo displayed on the sidebar color of Mediawiki's default Vector skin:
<div style="background-color:#F6F6F6">
[[File:Wikivoyage-logo.svg|16px]][[File:Wikivoyage-logo.svg|32px]]
[[File:Wikivoyage-logo.svg|100px]]
[[File:Wikivoyage-Logo-v3-en.svg|150px]]
[[File:Wikivoyage-Logo-v3-es.svg|150px]]
</div>

 
==2012 logo drive==
The above logo was selected by the Wikivoyage 2012 logo drive that took place November-December, 2012 to provide a new Wikivoyage logo for the official public announcement of our move to Wikimedia Foundation. The logo drive is archived in [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1]] and [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 2]].

==Word mark==
The font used in the current logo is Gill Sans Bold.

The word mark for the old logo is in Lenka font. Lenka, the Lenka font designer, is excited that we are using her font for our "Wikivoyage" word mark and has expressed willingness to work on further word mark requirements. She can be reached through [[User:Rogerhc|Roger]] <rogerchrisman@gmail.com> who has her email address and will forward word mark related emails to her, or on her [http://squirrelsinlondon.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/ll-scriptlenka-stabilo/ Squirrels in London blog].

The Lenka word mark was [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Word_mark_poll_results|chosen in a poll]]. Discussion of the word mark continues at the bottom of [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo]].

[[category:Wikivoyage]]
[[Category:Logos]]
[[Category:Legal]]
[[Category:Community Advocacy]]

Grants:IEG/Wikimedia Maps Rendering Improvements

2015-10-30T00:09:31Z

JamesA: /* Endorsements */ support

{{Probox

|grantee1=Pnorman

|contact=penorman{{@}}mac.com

|summary=Improve road labels and borders on Wikimedia Maps

|amount=15 000 USD

|target=Wikivoyage, any Wikimedia project that ends up using Wikimedia Maps

|goal=Improving Quality

|more_participants=NO

|image=File:IEG_key_blue.png



|status=under review
|theme=Tools


|round=round 2 2015
|year=2015
|project=Wikimedia Maps Rendering Improvements
|timestamp=21:34, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
|portal=IEG
|translations=Probox/IEG/Content
}}





==Project idea==
{{TOC_right}} 

===What is the problem you're trying to solve?===

The current road labeling for the Wikimedia Map style has defects that result in too many duplicate road labels and unclear road labeling. The lack of public transport information is a critical issue for acceptance on Wikivoyage.

The current toolchain for borders used does not capture the details of border disputes which are tagged in OpenStreetMap.

===What is your solution?===

# Reduce duplicate labels by name "glomming"
# Shorten labels by abbreviating road names
# Develop a new border toolchain which captures disputed borders

==Project goals==


Improve the quality of maps available for Wikimedia projects

==Project plan==

===Activities===


# Road glomming
## Derive test dataset: Developing the SQL will be easier against a test dataset, where different scenarios can be crafted
## Fix bugs in existing roads query: There are some bugs (e.g. misordering of labels) which should be fixed before developing a more complicated query
## Design query to glom roads: This will take a few days of thinking, drawing on the whiteboard, and testing with psql + qgis.
### Integrate sub-query: The sub-query will need integrating into the roads query. CTEs might be useful here, but care needs to be taken not to be an optimization fence
## Test query with tile boundaries: Label clipping at tile boundaries is a well-known issue. There are almost certain to be problems.
### Fix label clipping: This is expected to take a few days, based on experience with past label problems. Multiple iterations are likely
## Submit pull request for style
### Reply to feedback on changes
# Abbreviation
## Research existing abbreviation lists: Others have tackled this problem before
## Derive list based on existing lists
## Test list based on a multilingual list of names: Using English abbreviations in a German road name would be bad
## Publicize list for wider feedback: Both the Wikimedia and OSM communities may see problems with the abbreviations
# Borders
## Evaluate osm-borders tool: There's an existing tool for extracting border information an OpenStreetMap planet file, but it hasn't been updated in years and relies on depreciated software
### List OSM tags used to indicate a disputed or maritime border
## Identify if sufficient information is in the rendering database: It's not immediately obvious that there is enough information in the rendering DB to construct border linestrings and get disputed information from the ways
## Design test dataset: It's easier to test on something that isn't planet-sized
## Investigate SQL query to create admin lines table
## Investigate ways to update the admin lines table without regenerating all of it

===Budget===

The sums are before taxes. If the scope changes, costs will need to be revised

Developer: 15 000 USD

{| class="wikitable"
| || weeks||@||sum
|-
| Road glomming|| 2 || 2500 USD || 5000 USD
|-
| Abbreviation || 1 || 2500 USD || 2500 USD
|-
| Borders || 3 || 2500 USD || 7500 USD
|-
| Total ||||||15 000 USD
|}

===Community engagement===


The community will be engaged through the maps Talk page, and development will be in the open.

===Sustainability===

All work is expected to be in existing codebases maintained by Wikimedia. I will be making an effort to keep the code reusable by other projects.

===Measures of success===

[[m:Grants:Learning_patterns/Achievable_goals#Set_realistic_targets|Need target-setting tips?]] Note: in addition to your project-specific measures of success, you will also be asked to report on some [[m:Grants:Learning_%26_Evaluation/Global_Metrics|Global Metrics]] at the end of your final report. Please keep this in mind as you plan, and we'll [[Grants:Learning_patterns/Calculating_global_metrics|support you]] as you begin your project.

==Get involved==

===Participants===


====Paul Norman====

I am an OpenStreetMap community member and developer. I have done PostGIS, PostgreSQL, OpenStreetMap and Open Data consulting, with expertise in

* Extracting data from OpenStreetMap
* Raster-based tile rendering
* Vector-based tile rendering
* Map style design and implementation
* PostGIS optimization
* Transforming data to different schemas

All of these skills are relevant to the proposed project.

I am currently a maintainer of

* osm2pgsql: This is the data converter Wikimedia uses to load OSM data into a database, as well as nearly everyone else
* OpenStreetMap Carto: This is the Standard style on OpenStreetMap.org
* ogr2osm: This software is used for converting data '''to''' OSM format

I have also worked on the MapQuest style, MapQuest Open style, and a new style designed to replace it.

This summer I was a Google Summer of Code mentor for a student who successfully redesigned the OpenStreetMap Carto road colours. I am a past Google Summer of Code student, having worked on the OSM API.

===Community Notification===

Please paste links below to where relevant communities have been notified of your proposal, and to any other relevant community discussions. [[m:Grants:Learning_patterns/Let_the_community_know|Need notification tips?]]

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Maps
* https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage_talk:Mapmaking_Expedition
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps#Proposed_IEG_project
* Issues will be filed on Phabricator or other relevant issue trackers for ongoing communications



===Endorsements===

Do you think this project should be selected for an Individual Engagement Grant? Please add your name and rationale for ''endorsing'' this project in the list below. (Other constructive feedback is welcome on the [[Grants talk:{{PAGENAME}}|talk page]] of this proposal).
* ''Community member: add your name and rationale here.''
* [[User:Yurik (WMF)|Yurik (WMF)]]: 100% {{support}}. Any help with the [[phab:T113008|border dispute indicators]] and better labeling will be great. Also, Paul has already consulted us on a number of issues with the Maps, and having someone with Paul's expertise would be a major plus to the [[mw:Maps|Maps initiative]]
* it looks like a good idea. If you need some help with abbreviation in Italian, contact me.--[[User:Alexmar983|Alexmar983]] ([[User talk:Alexmar983|talk]]) 19:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
* I'd really love to see this happen [[User:Tfinc|Tfinc]] ([[User talk:Tfinc|talk]]) 23:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
* {{support}} [[User:Sturm|Sturm]] ([[User talk:Sturm|talk]]) 03:07, 16 October 2015 (UTC) Sounds a very desirable effort. If you need some help with abbreviation in Portuguese, contact me.
* {{support}} Many of the Wikimedia projects (most notably Wikipedia and Wikivoyage) will strongly benefit from having better maps. Useful developments in this direction should be supported. --[[User:Atsirlin|Alexander]] ([[User_talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 14:59, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
* {{support}} [[User:Csyogi|Csyogi]] ([[User talk:Csyogi|talk]]) 18:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
* {{support}} Wikivoyage would greatly appreciate better maps more suited to our guides. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 00:09, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/v/Wikivoyage-3en-Mmxx.png

2013-07-26T13:10:53Z

JamesA: +1 vote - eligible on metawiki with 1+ edits - Vote through Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery - Cutelect

<noinclude>{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/Votepage}}
== Votes ==
</noinclude>
# [[User:Jamesofur|Jamesofur]]
# [[User:INeverCry|INeverCry]]
# [[User:Digr|Digr]]
# [[User:Superbenjamin|Superbenjamin]]
# [[User:Kelson|Kelson]]
# [[User:Marcol-it|Marcol-it]]
# [[User:Pom445|Pom445]]
# [[User:Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry|Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry]]
# [[User:Dovi|Dovi]]
# [[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]]
# [[User:SteveR|SteveR]]
# [[User:RLuts|RLuts]]
# [[User:Ahonc|Ahonc]]
# [[User:Darkdadaah|Darkdadaah]]
# [[User:JamesA|JamesA]]

Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/v/Wv logo proposal flying plane.png

2013-07-26T13:07:02Z

JamesA: +1 vote - eligible on metawiki with 1+ edits - Vote through Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery - Cutelect

<noinclude>{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/Votepage}}
== Votes ==
</noinclude>
# [[User:Fractal|Fractal]]
# [[User:TCN7JM|TCN7JM]]
# [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]
# [[User:관인생략|관인생략]]
# [[User:Gorillazx1|Gorillazx1]]
# [[User:Slaporte|Slaporte]]
# [[User:YWelinder (WMF)|YWelinder (WMF)]]
# [[User:Torty3|Torty3]]
# [[User:Luna persa|Luna persa]]
# [[User:Heatherawalls|Heatherawalls]]
# [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]]
# [[User:Gorilla Jones|Gorilla Jones]]
# [[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]]
# [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]]
# [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]]
# [[User:Kwj2772|Kwj2772]]
# [[User:Arnaugir|Arnaugir]]
# [[User:Shev123|Shev123]]
# [[User:Garfieldairlines|Garfieldairlines]]
# [[User:Nicolas1981|Nicolas1981]]
# [[User:Planemad|Planemad]]
# [[User:JamesA|JamesA]]

Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/v/Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png

2013-07-26T13:06:01Z

JamesA: +1 vote - eligible on metawiki with 1+ edits - Vote through Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery - Cutelect

<noinclude>{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/Votepage}}
== Votes ==
</noinclude>
# [[User:Fractal|Fractal]]
# [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]
# [[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]]
# [[User:Odder|Odder]]
# [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]]
# [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]]
# [[User:Jcornelius|Jcornelius]]
# [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]]
# [[User:Gareth Aus|Gareth Aus]]
# [[User:Mey2008|Mey2008]]
# [[User:GMM|GMM]]
# [[User:Oxyman|Oxyman]]
# [[User:JamesA|JamesA]]

Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions

2013-07-21T12:02:01Z

JamesA: /* {{int:Talk}} */ re

{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/banner}}

{{LangSwitch
|en = This page is for organizing and discussing initial submissions for the [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013|2013 Wikivoyage logo selection]]. Please see that page for general information, including rules of participation.

All contributors are invited to submit potential logos for review, in accordance with [[Logo selection procedure|the rules set out there]] and at [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013]]. Please note that entering a submission constitutes your acceptance of those rules. Logo submissions should be listed and discussed here.

If you submit multiple different proposals, please indicate clearly which should be taken before the submission period ends. Otherwise ''all'' will be added to the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery|voting-gallery]]; but remember that voters have only 3 votes in total and adding lots of similar proposals may diminish the chances (this depends on how the voters behave, of course). Further information [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions#Multiple similar submissions (variants)|available at the talk page]].
}}

==Option 1 - ''Flowing Arrow''==
''I'm not quite sure how to format this, so please feel free to move it around a bit.''

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Proposed logo
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea 2.png|Proposed combination mark
</gallery>

Author: [[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]

This suggested logo has popped up previously, but here it is again; an abstract arrow. You can read a full (slightly tongue-in-cheek) explanation of my reasoning and see some implementations, other language versions and the SVG version that [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] very kindly made, [[:voy:User:Nicholasjf21/New_Logo_Concept|'''here''']]. Comments welcome! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
It's a really nice logo and I really like the baby blue colour, but in order to make it more in line with other Wikimedia projects, I would very much prefer for it to use the same colours as other recent logos, e.g. the Wikimedia logo itself.
I also agree with the comments previously voiced that making it somewhat more like both a compass needle and the Eiffel Tower at the same time would make it even more powerful. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments! :) I confess, I deliberately didn't use the WMF colours as none of the other 'consumer' (that's not the right word) wikis use the WMF colour scheme; if anything, blue is the more popular colour, but I used a brighter shade to differentiate ourselves; I know that some members of the community were not particularly keen on sharing colours with the 'meta' projects.
::I would personally be a little wary of making it look ''more'' like the Eiffel Tower and would prefer to keep the shape a little ambiguous in that respect: we don't want to be confused for the Parisian tourist board! I think it's nice that different people might see different things in the shape, but all of them are hopefully travel related. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. PrinceGloria, I really have no idea what you're thinking with your suggestions. Look at the logos for Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wiktionary, and Wikiversity. The only thing they have in common is that none of them use the colors of the Wikimedia logo! So why should Wikivoyage? I'm also not sure what's 'powerful' about looking like the Eiffel Tower; can you elaborate? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 23:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

::::I basically like this logo: color, form and thought. It works okay at a small size, but even in the gallery above I think that the version without the wordmark is too simple. I'm not sure what I'd add, but I think it needs ''something'' so that it's not a flat circle in bigger versions. Perhaps add continents to the globe (almost invisible at small sizes) or gradients. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Too ''simple''?? I'm guessing you don't have formal training in graphic design. One of ''the most basic'' precepts of design (graphic or otherwise) is ''simplicity''. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::Thanks for your thoughts //Shell! As LtPowers has said, I've aimed to keep this logo as simple as possible in order to make it more powerful: a strong, confident symbol for the project. Some of the most iconic logos in the world are composed of very simple elements. Hopefully this simplicity means that it works well at many different sizes, which is important for a project like this. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::I appreciate the goal to have a simple logo. I still feel that it needs something at the size it will be viewed in most (135px wide with wordmark) and I think this logo is simpler than all other Wikimedia projects'. The Github mark ([https://github.com/logos the silhouette]) is one that I like very much - it's simple, yet contains details that make it interesting when large. Nick, what would you consider an iconic logo? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 21:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Thanks for responding. I'd like to think it's about as simple as the Wikiquote and Wikidata emblems; not unusually so. The GitHub mark, whilst nice, doesn't seem that much more 'exciting' than the logo above and a cat-octopus hybrid might look a tad incongruous here. Personally, I like 'clean' design and that's what I've aimed for here. The use of a world map would, I fear, make the logo seem a little 'fussy', whilst gradients are rather losing their vogue at present - a flat icon can be timeless. Some examples of simple logos that I would deem iconic are: the [http://api.ning.com/files/Fd0Hyt-VB-mLJyE6xLYZ**QLu2VVQfvnaIEzyxSO11rwdkqRti2q4ra1ES1p8jr1BpSEJSaRTmqdCOv-6CXzMGxmhyl-gUex/applelogo.gif Apple logo], the [http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/pepsi-new-logo.jpg Pepsi logo], the [http://www.logodesignlove.com/images/evolution/mercedes-benz-symbol.jpg Mercedes-Benz logo], the [http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/zine2/misc/Bell_logo.png Bell System logo], the [http://s3.freefoto.com/images/24/56/24_56_7_web.jpg British Rail logo] and the [http://www.creativereview.co.uk/images/uploads/2011/01/nikelogo_1.gif Nike tick]. I believe that simplicity makes a mark memorable and stronger. In reality, it's likely that the image in the top left corner is the largest resolution at which this logo is going to be seen. As such, it is important that it can be reproduced faithfully at a range of much smaller sizes too - if small details were introduced, there's a chance that they could be compressed and unpleasant or lost entirely. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::I'll quote myself just once more as a general statement of support for this submission: it suggests a V for Voyage, flight, a compass, and even a bit of ocean waves, while being very simple and sleek. Nick also explained that part of his inspiration was the three step evolution of our project and community, first developing at Wikitravel, then migrating (i.e., fleeing) to Wikivoyage, and then happily under the umbrella of the WMF. Thinking of the icon this way, the "arrow" acts not just as a compass needle, but also a pointer forward, which could be read as an allegory for our project's forward movement, or movement in general (and travel is, of course, movement). To respond to PrinceGloria and //Shell above, I think that simplicity and distinctiveness should actually be primary goals in creating a new logo, as these qualities imbue the icon with more power and "catchiness."

::::::::::I certainly hope to have the opportunity to look at more submissions, which hopefully are on the way, but I can say I'd be happy with this one, as long as there are no legal obstacles this time. Great start to the submissions! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::I think that this is an attractive logo, I just feel that if I saw it without the Wikivoyage label at the bottom, I wouldn't know it was for Wikivoyage. [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 01:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: '''(edit conflict)''' Thanks for your comments! Personally, I don't think a logo should be used to try and convey exactly what a project's about; after a while, any logo would become synonymous with WV simply by association. Other WMF logos seem to have been made with this in mind as well: either that or Wikipedia's developing spherical jigsaw puzzles and Wikisource is building an iceberg!
:::::::::::: A logo should, to my mind, convey the abstract spirit of a project , rather than explicitly say what an organisation stands for. If you look at the selection of logos I posted for //Shell above, none of them states what the company in question does, but gives a pictorial representation which might be used to identify them. That's what I've tried to create for Wikivoyage here. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: I would reuse the font of the current logo. This would be a link with the current one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::::: In the context of travelling, the logo reminds me more of a paper plane than an arrow. And a paper plane looks strange in contrast to the massive pollution real aircrafts cause. --[[User:Nicor|Nicor]] ([[User talk:Nicor|talk]]) 09:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::@Nick: Wikiquote & Wikidata have simpler shapes, but the colors make them more interesting to me. My point about the Github silhouette was that the details in the tail make it interesting at high resolutions while lo-res versions are still clear. Those logos are rarely seen as simplified as the versions you linked: Apple's is often on their products, where the logo has some gloss/texture; Pepsi's on a can, also giving gloss; Mercedes-Benz's is chromium-plated and 3D; Nike's on shoes/clothes which give texture/interesting background (don't know about Bell/British Rail). Contrast that with the Wikivoyage logo, which will be viewed on a gray background with no more gloss/texture than it has from the start. I guess Microsoft's new icons are a better comparison, but even those are usually in a smaller format. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 12:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::I created a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|version showing my idea]]. To me the continents make it interesting at hi-res, while not taking anything away from the lo-res situations. (I'm not sure whether I can submit this version for Wikivoyage since it uses continents from [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|here]]) [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 14:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Shell, [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|your version]] with continent outlines in the blue disk is very interesting. I'd like to see what that looks like with the continents more prominently displayed, maybe like, or not like, a blue marble. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 19:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::Rogerhc, I don't understand what you mean by "blue marble". Would you like a version with a darker outline? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 19:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks for posting that //Shell! I'm still not completely sure of it myself: I still like plain and simple, but I do appreciate your input and it is interesting to see! :) Personally, I like bold, simple shapes and 'unfussy' design, even though it's not necessarily everyone's cup of tea. I'd like the logo to look the same at all resolutions if possible, but your opinion is just as valid as mine! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 12:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Under the terms of this process Shell can submit a derivative with those changes as an alternative proposal. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Absolutely! Shell's more than welcome to submit a derivative; the above is just my personal opinion. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 14:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Quite so, and for what it's worth I prefer the plainer version. If I can make a suggestion, the curves of the gaps in the arrow could be harmonized a little. This one is on my short list at present. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Thanks! I am, unfortunately, away from my computer for the next couple of weeks (doing this on my phone), but once I get back, I'll try and smooth out some of the logo's rougher edges. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Peter, Am I though? My version is a combination of [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Nick's idea]] and [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|a map]]. The map wasn't submitted here, so I don't believe I can submit my version without creating my own map or replacing it with one in the public domain. I'm not skilled enough to create my own, so either somebody else can create one or we'll have to find a better one. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::The shape of the earth is not copyrighted, just find a PD source and use that. You will want an svg anyway. cheers, · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Shell I like your improvement on Nick's idea. Give yourself a try and submit it. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I find Shell's version unnecessairly complicated. The power of Nick's version is its simplicity, relative uniqueness (it SUGGESTS a few things, but isn't one, so it has potential to become a universally recognized logo) and scalability (it works just as well as a thumb icon as it does as fullsize logo). [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::I made one more version, this time with a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - split color.svg|split color]]. I don't intend to submit either variant now, since that would just confuse voters, but some people like the idea, I'll do something for the final round if this submission makes it that far. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 20:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't like it. The arrow is broken for my POV. Though, I think, it is possible to see something like sail in this arrow and to rework/redraw logo in this direction. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a little reminiscent to the [http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/OOo_Website_v2_copy.png OpenOffice.org ball logo], but probably not too much. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Can we see what it would look like as a favicon? Maybe even with an actual page having it as a favicon, not just a small picture? Thanks! [[Special:Contributions/81.14.76.167|81.14.76.167]] 00:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

:Thanks very much for your comments everyone! I'm afraid I'm currently away from my PC and only have my phone, so I'm not going to be able to create a page to use the favicon; however, as soon as I return, I'd be happy to create one for you. Any more comments or questions would be welcome! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 02:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 2 - ''Info''==
<gallery>
WV logo v28.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

The "information desk" icon is used widely. The extra markers around the circle look like old maps. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
: Have you tried to reuse the current color palette? This maybe could fit better with some color choices that has been done in the past for maps & articles. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Digr]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think Option 11 - Compass Rose with Globe is better. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 3 - ''Plane 2''==
<gallery>
Plane2.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

It looks like both an open book and an airplane. It invites to open, read and write. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:I feel like you don't need to confine yourself to the Wikimedia shades. Was that your natural choice for both logos, or was it to reinforce brand identity? [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 23:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:: I remember this logo, and I really like the excellet idea that is behind it. Maybe (although I don't know how) I would graphically enforce these two concept, because without the explanation they don't arrive immediately. Once you know them, are clear, and are clear as well after several observation, but in my opinion a logo should be clear since the first glance. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::: To me it looks like neither an open book nor an aircraft, even when I am told it should. I can see the attempted resemblance, but for me it just does not gel. That which makes it look somewhat like an aircraft, detracts from the book-like aspects and vice versa. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I can see the book but no aircraft. Wikivoyage is not Wikibooks, I dont want confusion. --[[User:Pyfisch|Pyfisch]] ([[User talk:Pyfisch|talk]]) 10:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::Great idea. It was my first choice during the first round already and it will be my first choice. Really like it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 13:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Isatis78]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:[[User:Isatis78]] has now confirmed agreement to the logo submission rules [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMdennis_%28WMF%29&diff=100028523&oldid=92444490 here]. Restoring this one to discussion. I've retitled this section according to the creator's original title. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't see plane, I see only book. Good idea, bad realization. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 4 - ''Next Generation Compass ''==
<gallery>
WikivoyageNewLogo1.png
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

A simple compass logo. Known as Rbrown on Wikivoyage. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*Does not show up very well · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*:I cropped the image - now it's better visible. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
*::Thank you Shell. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
* Too simple. Unoriginal. Сolour match "salad green on white background" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a good idea but not very original, unfortunately. A lot of [[w:Garmin|GPS]] and navigation devices and software use compass icons. Even [[w:Safari (web browser)|web browsers]]. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 5 - ''The Old Logo''==

<gallery>
WikiVoyage-logo.svg
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

The logo is well known. And the WMF is already the owner. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 13:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by Hansm and Unger , but submitted by RolandUnger [[Special:Contributions/81.178.165.241|81.178.165.241]] 12:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: I think submission of the old logo is not a problem. It is created by Hansm and Unger, but the ownership is transferred to the wikivoyage community and if one of them wants it back that should not be made a big problem. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that might be stretching the point a bit, only one person can make an edit, or do you dispute that Unger and RolandUnger are the same person?· · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 12:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: Unger and RolandUnger are the same person. I had to change my name because of SUL. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 18:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The weak point of this logo and other logo's based on the latin script that wikivoyage is project that is not a latin only project. The Greek and the Hebrew language version would look very funny with this logo. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

[[:en:Virgin_America|Virgin Airlines]]? [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 6 - ''Plane(t)''==
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange2.png|'''6a.''' Two planets
Wv logo proposal two worlds 1.png|'''6b.''' One planet
Wv logo proposal two worlds blue.png|'''6c.''' One planet blue
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange.png|'''6d.''' Two planets alt
</gallery>
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal plane and planet.png|'''6e.''' Plane and planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane and planet.png|'''6f.''' Looping plane and planet
Wv logo proposal plane in front of planet.png|'''6g.''' Plane in front of planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane.png|'''6h.''' Looping plane
Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|'''6i.''' Flying plane
</gallery>
[[File:Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|250px|thumbnail|'''6i.''' Flying plane]]

This is my submission for the Wikivoyage logo selection process. The logo emphasizes that Wikivoyage is a free, world-wide travel guide. The airplane represents travel, and considering we're a world-wide travel guide, it is flying around the Earth. The "free" bit is only slightly hinted at, as the airplane is flying in a half-moon-shaped reversed "c", a nod to our copyleft license.

The logo shows not one, but two planets, because we are a project that's a coming together of two worlds (two communities), now operating together in union. That's why the airplane is flying around both planets as if they are one.

I chose orange because it's a unique color not used by any other WMF project. But we can make dozens of variations with many different colors. I'm open for your comments and suggestions. [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 16:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
Seems like the Death Star with a bigger hole. ~~[[User:ebe123|EBE123]]~~ [[User talk:Ebe123|talk]][[Special:Contributions/Ebe123|Contribs]] 21:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 
Very nice but it remind me the expedia logo. [[User:Inkey|Inkey]] ([[User talk:Inkey|talk]]) 11:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:I think it's a bit similar to Expedia's previous logo, but not their current. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:: Generally speaking I like the logo, but it doesn't makes me think to a WMF site (I don't recall at all the expedia's one, so I'm not referring to it). Try to use all the RGB colors just to see what comes out. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 21:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm a fan of this, but would like to see some other versions. The planets to me look more like an eyeball, which probably isn't what you're going for. I don't think the swooshed plane, which I like a lot, is too similar to the old Expedia logo (the whole look is very different). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::The two planets were no success, so I uploaded a couple of different versions of the logo. I thought it might be an idea to make the plane loop, as it makes the logo a bit more playful and shows how fun travel is (just like how making loops is fun). [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 03:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Upturned planes on 6f and 6h lead to [[:en:Fear of flying|aerophobia]]. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 15:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I don't like most of the alternative versions you made, but 6i is excellent, I like a lot! PS The above Alex comment cracks me up! :-D --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

These are by far my favorite logos here (enough to make me make my first edit on Meta). Simple but interesting, and (my pet peeve) actually has good typography. 6d, 6g, and 6i are my favorites.—[[User:Kelvinsong|Kelvinsong]] ([[User talk:Kelvinsong|talk]]) 18:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

:These are very intriguing. I really like 6i out of all the options, but would also like to see a version of 6e flipped vertically (so the plane flies forward to the right) and changed to blue. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::This is generally a very nice logo, very dynamic. Only it took me while to recognize the plane in it - it looked like a lizard to me at first :) And also I am not sure if a plane represents traveling very well, it doesn't work with me, anyway. --[[User:Danapit|Danapit]] ([[User talk:Danapit|talk]]) 13:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::You improved it greatly in the later variations, namely 6i. The use of orange and bright blue is really dynamic. On that note, is it possible for us to see 6i in orange? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 15:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::::What about some more color? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 11:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

::::6i is my favorite, and it seems like a few others agree with me. The problem with it is when it needs to be shown without the word Wikivoyage & small, i.e. a favicon. Frankly, it would make a terrible favicon. I like it a lot, though. Does anyone know if it's possible to have a slightly different favicon than full logo? 6g would make a nice favicon. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 06:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::No reason we can't, I guess. Wikipedia does it. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 7 - ''WV logo''==

<gallery>
WV logo 1.svg
WV logo 2.svg|Modified to show components more clearly
WV Logo 2 - 50% grey.png|Grey scale rendering
WV Logo 2 - B and W.png|Line art rendering
</gallery>
20 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|20px]], 16 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|16px]], 10 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|10px]]

Colour could be anything that provides sufficient contrast. I like blue or green, which are particularly suitable for the negative version (white on colour or transparent on colour). · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Text is optional and can be chosen by the language version. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 10:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reminds me of the [[:en:Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit|Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber]] too much. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 20:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::It actually does look a little like that, but I don't think many people would think of that when looking at this logo. It's a bit like the [[w:Rorschach test]]. ;) If other people agree with that, though, we might want to use a different logo. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 01:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::This invites a cease and desist from [http://www.vvv.nl/pagina/home/default.aspx the VVV]. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 10:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Their logo is three separate V's in a triangle in a square, this is a combined W and V in a circle. colours are different and can be changed, negative version differs even more. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::It is also different from the Mitsubishi logo, the Volkswagen logo, the Triangle health and fitness logo, Wyoming valley anthracite logo, West Virginia University logo, VVV Venlo logo and Anton May logo. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 11:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Modified logo it's definitely better that the original one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I thought the simplicity of the original would be better, but now I have got used to the change I think you are right. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Our current logo is far more different from the WTC logo than this one from VVV, but it still invited a cease and desist. And the new version bears even more similarity to the VVV, which was born basically of the same idea. I like it, but I would be mega-cautious. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Legal department will make that decision I guess. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't like it. Very similar with WC room signs or with [[:en:Volkswagen|Volkswagen]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:Which WC room signs would that be? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:: I didn't say, that it was WC room sign. It has similar design for me, I see in proposed logo [http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/sendmeamirror/Signs%20and%20Symbols/wccircle.jpg smth like this] with two changes - C on right transformed to V on bottom, or woman triangle ([http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/608653/104911997/stock-photo-toilet-sign-with-geometry-figure-set-104911997.jpg like here]) without head. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
While I like this, particularly some ideas that come to mind using the very simple and stylized version in the first thumb, I share some worries about its similarity to other logos. In particular, the versions with the components separated a bit remind ''a lot'' of the Volkswagen logo. The other issue is that the WV initials don't apply to many language versions both currently and going forward. But if the logo is sufficiently abstracted, that is less of an issue. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:My imediate first thought when seeing this one was [http://www.wvusports.com/ the sports teams of the University of West Virginia]. I'm not versed enough in the law to know if it is close enough to matter, though. (Aside, the problems mentioned elsewhere about this one not being logical for non-latin script projects holds here.) [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 03:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::I also had the VVV association immediately. --[[User:Danapit|Danapit]] ([[User talk:Danapit|talk]]) 13:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 8 - ''Get Escape''==

<gallery>
WV Get Escape.svg | 8.1 - The original version
WV Get Escape 2.svg | 8.2 - Alternative version with square shape
WV Get Escape 3.svg | 8.3 - Alternative version with spherical shape
WV Get Escape 4.svg | 8.4 - Alternative version with a bullseye and 2 arrows around a circle
WV Get Escape 5.svg | 8.5 - Alternative version (as #4, but with a full circle)
WV Get Escape 6.svg | 8.6 - Alternative version (as #5, but with a generic map of the Earth)
WV Get Escape 7.svg | 8.7 - Alternative version with a spiral of arrows and an empty circle
WV Get Escape 8.svg | 8.8 - Alternative version (as #7, but with a full circle)
WV Get Escape 9.svg | 8.9 - Alternative version (as #8, but with a map of the Earth)
</gallery>

'''16px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 6.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 7.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 8.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 9.svg|16px]]

'''20px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 6.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 7.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 8.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 9.svg|20px]]

'''24px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 6.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 7.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 8.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 9.svg|24px]]

I imagine a logo that could resemble a bird while spreading its wings and the letters "W" and "V" (WikiVoyage's initials) at the same time. Moreover, my logo wants to express the escape from the ordinary when someone takes a journey and the possibility to choose different paths before starting a trip. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 22:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like it! Uses the WMF color, it has the circle that recall the world and other WM logos, furthermore there's a W that recall Wikivoyage. Try to make some other alternatives on these theme, don't stop on the first idea. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Hey, did you maybe read on my mind? I just thought about a squared version this night (dropping out the circle), ''et voila''... --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Between the two I'd like more the first one. In the second one there's "too many angles", with the round shape is more balanced (IMO). --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Nice the third version, but I would let let arrows goes out from the circle to give more the idea of freedom. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any geo-themed object in this logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:As with some other submissions, I think it would be nice to get away from the WV initials, since they do not apply to many language versions--especially those with non-Latin writing systems. That said, this could be the starting point for a more abstracted logo focusing on the elements of motion out of one's individual sphere and into the rest of the globe. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::@Andyrom: OK, I'll try to adjust it as soon as possible. @Alex Spade: and so? What's the point? I don't think that some other submissions are strictly connected to a geographic theme. @Peter: it's true, you can see a WV at first sight on my logo, but I took into account non-Latin languages and I render it in order to be seen also as a route that from a starting point could take different directions around the world. Anyway, I thank you and Alex for the critics, maybe I'll create another version that might fit your needs. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 21:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Here we go! I revised the third version and added a new one featuring 2 arrows that look like the Tropics (in addition, it recalls in a different key WikiVoyage's current logo). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Update: I build another one from #4, using 4 crossed arrows that form a [[:en:Union Jack|Union Jack]]-like pattern. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 12:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, some other submissions are not connected to a geographic theme too. But they have another, more important weaknesses (important for my POV). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: #5 looks like a Xmas ball :-D ... but I think you can work on #4 Try to put a "world" on that sphere, and maybe try also to work on those arrows giving them a more "mellifluous" style. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Do you mean an abstract representation of Earth? I don't know, it would be too... ''messy''! XD I just want to use simple geometric shapes in order to have a clean work (above all on small icons). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 20:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Not abstract, just the map. Regarding the small icon, if you are not too convinced, it could be slightly different form the big one, I meant, with just the blue sphere. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 20:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Map as background? Hmmm... It can be interesting solution. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 21:57, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::: OK, as you wish. Here it is the 6th version, with a map of the Earth that I extracted from [[:File:Gnome-globe.svg|this]] (I specified into the file's description that it's a derivative work, but I don't know if there are copyright issues, I don't want to infringe anything). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 09:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: I don't think that anyone has the copyright on the world! (Just joking :-D .... in any case we can easily find a free globe map) I like a lot how is it coming out, but I would still work on the arrows. Initially I'll keep the two different colors and, like the current one, running into the different rotation direction of the world giving the idea of "roaming around". Secondly I'll change the shape of the arrows with a more gentle shape. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::: Believe me, I don't get how much "gentle" would be the arrows for you. Can you give me an example, please? Regarding the colors, I decided to use the dark red to both the arrows because there's already a lot of green for the lands and blue for the water, so I wanted to balance these 3 colors. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 14:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::: Maybe for the color you are right. Being not good at drawing I can't tell you in detail what to do. I've just describe my feeling looking at it. Try to enlarge the top for a better proportion. Then I don't know if shadow/3D effect can help. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 16:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::: I retouched the arrows. I hope you like them now. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Much more better! What about a third red line in the middle like a spiral? Try several version, like with just one arrow peak, another increasing the dimension from the tail to the head, or other ideas... --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 14:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::: What do you think about a spiral of 4 arrows? I build it with 3 different backgrounds. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 22:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: Arrows this time are perefect, very nice, but the latest tries gives me the idea of a dangerous typhoon so the willing of stay at home and not to travel :-D Coming back to 8.6, when I've said spiral, I was thinking on an third line parallel to the others two and positioned in between. So the spiral is something that is not over the globe, but it's all around. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::: Ah, I understand what you were thinking now. Well, I made a test with this third line, but looking all together it resembles too much either the WTO logo or the Java one (IMHO), so I prefered to give up this solution. Meanwhile, I discarded the versions #4 and #5 and I redrew them as different variations of #6. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 13:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
[a capo] I see a good potential in 8.4, but the arrows should be "fatter". --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 16:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 9 - ''sailboat'' ==
<gallery>
File:Travel boat rgb logo.svg
File:Travel_boat_blue_logo.svg
File:Community boat logo.svg
</gallery>
Created by {{user|Isarra}} in R1 of the original contest. I like it, so I think it deserves another shot. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reopened. Isarra has consented to the submission rules, [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Isarra&oldid=5653490 here]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 00:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:This is a nice design, and the colors work well together. It fits the theme of Wikivoyage of being free, etc., and it's a bonus that it depicts and actual voyage. Could I possibly see it with the word Wikivoyage under it? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::While pretty, and suggesting travel quite well, it is a bit cluttered and may not work as an icon or in greyscale.
::How does it look to the colourblind? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::I agree with Peter S. that this looks pretty, but a little cluttered. Maybe we could try it without the circles, just the boat? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::::This is far and beyond my favorite. [[User:The ed17|Ed]] [[User talk:The ed17|[talk]]] [[:en:User:The ed17|[en]]] 00:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 10 - ''signpost'' ==
{{collapse top|While nice, this logo is improperly submitted. Rule one states: ''Eligibility. You can submit logos for consideration only if (i) you are the original creator, or (ii) they are attributed modifications of other logos submitted through this process. By submitting, you implicitly acknowledge that you have read and agree to these rules.'' The original creator is encouraged to resubmit. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 06:14, 13 July 2013 (UTC)}}
<gallery>
File:GDJ-logotyp-propozycja-Reytana.svg
</gallery>
This one is nice too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 11 - ''Compass Rose with Globe''==
<gallery>
File:WV logo v25 v2.png|Version 0.4a [[File:WV logo v25 v2.png|20px]]
</gallery>

I liked this one too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


I liked it (second one). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I agree with Alex: the second one is better. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I like version 0.4a.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

While I like this a lot when considered independently, I think it's (much) too similar to the Meta logo. While that doesn't present trademark issues, since the WMF would own both, it still fails to give our project a unique look. (Actually, given Wikivoyage's greater visibility than Meta, it might be better to say that we'd be robbing Meta of ''its'' unique look!) At a minimum, I think the globe element would need to be completely rethought. The compass element in 0.4a is really nice, though. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like Version 0.4a even if it is similar to the Meta log: Meta's looks concentrating and stable, this one moving outward dynamically.--[[User:Miya|miya]] ([[User talk:Miya|talk]]) 05:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Second one really elegant. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 07:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have said, I liked it (0.4a), but image must be cleared (see full size on image description page). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Version 0.2 delete. We can change Globe. [[User:Digr|Digr]] ([[User talk:Digr|talk]]) 19:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 12 - ''Arrows''==
<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw.svg|Main logo
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (GS).svg|Same logo - greyscale version (ie for greyscale printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (BW).svg|Same logo - black version (ie for Fax / monochrome printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|only the arrows for special purposes (ie favicon)
</gallery>
:<s>[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Icon).svg|24x24px]] - Favicon proposal </s>
:[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x16px]] - [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x24px]] [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x32px]] - better favicon proposal in 16, 24 and 32px

My proposal for the new logo. The arrows represent the directions of travel, I took the colours from Wikimedia Design guidelines. Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 23:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Very nice. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 01:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. Very nice. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 04:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Very striking. The text can be translated while the logo remains recognizable for all languages. Works for me. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::I agree. Beautiful and versatile. Nice work. --[[User:Nanae|Nanae]] ([[User talk:Nanae|talk]]) 09:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Great. Simplicity is the best. Re the favicon: suggesting to remove either preferrably both letters (ie. as the last example is - some languages even don't use latin alphabet and ie. chinese/japanese characters probably wouldn't be legible, or consider azbuka, where the first letter is similar to latin B) or at least the "V" (mind translations, where "voyage" could be translated to the word beginning with the different letter). Favicons should be ''icons'' (preferably of the logotype) only. In any case, again, very nice work! Technical: What is the font and is it free? — [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 12:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Beautiful! I like a lot this one! In particular the first version (i.e. main logo)! It has all the feature that I was looking for (i.e. WMF logo & recall to the current one), furthermore, for future use it can be streched to the "only arrows version". Currently it's my favourite! Regarding the letters I don't consider it a problem, because we can have exactly the same approach of the wikipedia logo: an image with a text translated in each language. (e.g. [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ko/b/bc/Wiki.png ko], [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Wikipedia-logo-v2-it.png it], [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg/135px-Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg.png fa])--[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::It would work well with a wide variety of fonts, so that would be a separate issue. Each language could make their own decision on what best suits their name. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Thx for your feedback!
* I was not thinking about different character systems at the moment of creating the favicon, I think just the arrows will work better.
* If anyone here could translate wikivoyage to a language with different character systems (hebrew, any asian, kyrilic,...) I'd love to present them as demo.
* To clarify: the first three logo versions are the same logo for different purposes.
* The font I used was Gill Sans bold. The creator Eric Gill died in 1940, so it should be free in most countries. If there is any problem: I think most of the bold sanserif typeface would work as well.
Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 20:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (de).svg|most latin languages
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (el).svg|greek
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (es).svg|spanish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (he).svg|hebrew
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (pl).svg|polish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (ru).svg|russian
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (uk).svg|ukrain
</gallery>
Slightly new version using [[en:DejaVu fonts|DejaVu sans]], an open source font, the other languages for demo. Which version do you like more? Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 05:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

:There is one simple rule in typeface design and it is that Gill Sans always wins. Seriously though - drop the bold, it doesn't look good. Either Sans is fine to me, but not with bold. A very good design, I am only slightly worried it is not very travel-themed and could just as well be used by many other projects. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like concept "Three arrows". Four arrows are classic for geo-projects. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I confirm my appreciation for this logo, so I suggest you to invest part of your time in searching over the web if there's any similar registered logos that may arise legal issues. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:And I like the ''three'' arrows because it is ''different'' from the conventional four directions arrows and allows use of the three primary colours. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a very attractive, strong submission. The idea of an unconventional compass (which maybe I'm projecting onto the submission), is really cool. Working the name into the center of the logo is also a cool step. How would this work with a caption, if we choose to use one (we don't have to). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:I wasn't expecting to like anything better than Nick's arrow, but I like this submission best of all the ones that have been submitted so far. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like the plain 3 arrows (favicon) (also produces a closure illustion of a cube!) [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 11:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

::Very pretty. Simple and flexible. --[[User:Danapit|Danapit]] ([[User talk:Danapit|talk]]) 13:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a good looking logo, but why the hell does everyone want to use red, green, and blue?? Of all the content (as opposed to meta) projects, only Wikispecies uses this color scheme, and theirs is muted. If we use red, green, blue, we look like a meta project. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:I see a great potential on this logo. I was thinking on video where the 3 arrows goes out to show something in the middle, and/or to draw something on their trails as they pass by. Or, in static pages, the smallest ones (with no letter inside), could be used as bullet points on some institutional list or brochure. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 13 - ''W-route''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute.png|1
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute2.png|2
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute3.png|3
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute4.png|4
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute5.png|5 with plane
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute6.png|6 icon only
</gallery>
16 px favicon: [[File:Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute-favicon16p.png]]

My logo shows a dynamic route (in shape of a curved "W") on a globe. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). The structure is the same as in the Wikipedia- or the Wikimedia logo: A round sign at the top und the text at the bottom. —''The preceding [[w:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]] ([[User talk:Giweddah|{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}]] • [[Special:Contributions/Geweddah|{{int:Contribslink}}]]) .
:I suggest a more obvious "W" for the "route". · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]:
::first it is a route – and with a little fantasy it becomes a "W". I like logos with a slight "secret": for example the (bavarian) air-screw in the BMW logo or air/land/water in the Mercedes star. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::It has a vague similarity to the GE logo :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Maybe it is because of the color. Here are some variations:

I don't like "W" in this logo. It is very Arabic-like. Moreover, first logo (wroute2) is still [[w:GE|GE]]-like. <s>Second variant... (my proxy-server cutted out it).</s> Third one (wroute4) is similar to [[en:Eurovision 2012|Eurovision Baku (Azerbaijan)]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::"Baku" is over and what is wrong with arabic?
::: Proposed variant of "W" letter is similar with Arabic letters. Such imitation (accidental or intentional) is good for Arabic organization or for travel agency working with Arabic states. And it is not good for international, interlanguage project about all countries of the World. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I'm still conditioned from the first impression but I still see the GE logo. Have you consider to modify the "dynamic route"? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::Consider: yes. But I like the actual form. And I see no "vague similarity" to the GE logo in the later suggestions, yes there are white lines in a circle – but that is the only similarity. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::I like this conceptually and visually, particularly in the third thumb above using our soon-to-be discarded logo's colors. The path is stylized/abstracted enough where I don't think using a W is problematic for language versions that do not use a Latin W in their name. But I also share concerns about the similarity to the GE logo. I guess that will be a question for Legal. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:It probably doesn't help much but I like the very first one very much. A path around a globe that forms a W, all made with so less strokes. This is brilliant. I also like the dark blue color. Number 5 confuses me a bit. It's like the stroke is going the wrong direction, getting thinner from right to left. Maybe it's because the tip of the brush that forms the stroke is mirrored. You can't use a brush that way when you are right handed. Yea, I know, this is nitpicking. ;-) --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 19:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 14 - ''Lines and Arrow''==
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage_logo - arrow_prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2 no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype variant 1.png
</gallery>
Okay. This is the first of several designs I will be presenting. This one is an arrow formed with four lines, each one representing something. The grey line represents the roads, the green line the forests and national parks, the red line represents the attractions, and the blue line, the water. Together, they form an arrow, a symbol used to point directions across the globe, and well-known in the traveling world. The red semi-circle (which I originally planned to be blue, though) represents the land above which all those elements coexist; e.g. the earth. Any thoughts? — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 02:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Second version ===
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text (black).png
</gallery>
I have done this little tweak that I do like and adds a different meaning to the logo. Cheers. — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 08:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

: Generally speaking it doesn't inspire me, because the logo itself, doesn't give me the idea of the voyage, and with the wiki.label is applied below of it, they screech a little bit, because I don't perceive them as a whole thing. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::I like that this is very visually distinct, but share Andyrom75's concern that it's relation to travel is pretty hard to discern without an explanation. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like these. I see smth like "subway/railroad map" here (in both sections). It can be good for land transport system (subway or railroad company), but it is not good for WV. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that but the lines look like something is broken. They don't form something bigger, they are fighting each other. The second version is a bit better because it's more balanced. But it still reminds me [[:File:Garten Kabeltrommel 5751.jpg|of this]]. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 19:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 15 - ''Feet'' ==
<gallery>
Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|Version 1
Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|Version 5 (1 w/o disc)
Logo entry shyamal1.svg|Version 2
Logo entry shyamal2.svg|Version 3
Logo entry shyamal3.svg|Version 4
</gallery>

At 20px: [[File:Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|20px]][[File:Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|20px]][[File:Logo entry shyamal3.svg|20px]]

My logo is based on the <s>primitivity</s> primality (thanks [[en:User:AshLin]]) of feet in travel placed on a globe with some jut, here not accurately placed but could be designed with more geometrical accuracy and suggesting the same jigsaw theme of Wikipedia and using the same colour scheme (not adjusted exactly in the first version). Variants based on this can be considered. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 05:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like it. Give us an example without the grey disc. It might be a more powerful image. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
::Have added two other variants. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]])
:::Versions 2 and 3 are very much like a logo that I saw on a google search for "Footprints logo", so may be a Copyvio or TM issue. 4 is OK, but would still like to see a clean version of the first with ''only'' the footprints.
:::The original version is evocative of going out in various directions from a centre, it is fresh and dynamic, whereas the others all suggest a circularity of motion. I think an outward looking logo is most appropriate to our project. There is no need to dilute the message with any circular component.
:::The grey disc will reduce legibility in greyscale and B&W. A simple clean graphic works best as an icon. First version without circle has potential for all these things. Try icons at 16 or 20px to see what I mean. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Added simple version. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 07:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::I think it is the best of the variants. Crisp and clean and most clear at small sizes. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Very nice and original. My favourite is #4. That said, it doesn't recall me a "voyage". --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Good idea on the whole, but small icons is very muddy. May be, it is possible to use only one feet for small variant (heel is green, toes are red or smth like this). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like version 3, clean work.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

[[Category:Wikivoyage]]
[[Category:Logos]]

==Option 16 - ''Destination''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination.svg|1
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination2.svg|2
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination3.svg|3
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination4.svg|4
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination5.svg|5 w/o text
</gallery>

The logo shows a dotted route with a cross for the destination. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]

:The "Red Cross" is known worldwide as something very different. --[[User:AndreasPraefcke|AndreasPraefcke]] ([[User talk:AndreasPraefcke|talk]]) 11:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I think that there's a root for a good idea, but you have to try something different. The blue bubbles gives me the idea of "thinking", maybe the red cross it's not the best option. Try to think on somthing related to a voyage: an airplane? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The "Red Cross" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

(about the 2nd version)

This logo would be perfect for the Finnish version ;-) :-P --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I agree... just first we need the Finnish version... --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 23:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

My first reaction was that it looks like there is a Christian slant to our travel info ;) Maybe rotate the cross a little closer to an X, as in X marks the spot on a treasure map? I really like the thought bubble effect, though, which suggests dreaming of travel. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The third version is not going to work. In situations where the logo won't be with "Wikivoyage", it would be colorless. Otherwise, it's a good idea, you just need to fiddle around with the colors to find the best. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:I like the 4th option the best :) How will it look with languages that don't have a dotted letter? [[Special:Contributions/99.245.192.218|99.245.192.218]] 00:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::I know that you draw it with the idea of a path to a target, but in #5 has lost what I liked in the previous ones, the idea of thinking/dreaming on a travel. I repeat, from my point of view you should try to investigate something in that direction. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I cancel this submission. It's the weakest of my concepts. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]

==Option 17 - ''Take off''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff.svg|1
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff2b.svg|2
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff3.svg|3
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff4.svg|4 V3 icon only
</gallery>
16 px favicon: [[File:Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff-favicon16p.png]]

The logo shows an arrow (in Wikimedia colors) that starts to a voyage. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:I find version 1 more interesting. Version is is more like "come with me" while version 2 is "go that way". Try to make the gaps between the three colors a bit wider. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you. In version 3 the gaps are a little bit wider and the curve has a new form (a real ellipse). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:I have to say I like this one a lot (the curved one) - probably my favourite on this page! Nice and simple. However it is possible that I only think this way because of its resemblance to the previous logo? -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] ([[User talk:Chuq|talk]]) 23:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 18 - ''Simplified sailboat'' ==

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|[[File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|20px]] Sailboat 2.0
File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat 2 1.svg|[[File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat 2 1.svg|20px]] 2.1
File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat 2 2.svg|[[File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat 2 2.svg|20px]] 2.2
</gallery>
I liked [[#Option 9 - sailboat]] but found it to complicated. This is my first try to make it simpler. Please tell me what you think. I will try to add more versions depending on the input I get. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:Why aren't all of the sections of the outside the same color? I think it would be better just as one color.
:I'm slightly concerned about how a sailboat design will be when the logo has to be small, so can wee see it small? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::The green section is an island in the distance, blue is the water. The Wikimedia logo uses similar coloring. But you are right, I could try a single color. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::The wave below the boat can be stylized better. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Despite its name, Wikivoyage is not primarily about sailing (although coverage of sailing is most welcome!). That said, if you'd like to try simplifying the design even more, let's have a look. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:This is my favourite of the sailboat ones :) [[User:Ross Hill|Ross Hill]] ([[User talk:Ross Hill|talk]]) 17:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:I added two color variations. I also retouched the wave and made the sail a bit smaller in the new versions. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 19:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like version 2.2 best of all submissions in there. Wikivoyage is not about sailing but I think that sail boat says voyage like no other logos in here. Colour theme goes well with Wikimedia's other projects. I think it is working well in small size too. – [[user:linnea|linnea]] ([[user talk:linnea|talk]]) 10:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:: I agree that 2.2 it's the better version beacuse it's leaner. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 14:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 19 - ''Snake on a magic towel'' ==
[[File:Snake on magic towel.png|thumb|300px|Snake on a magic towel.]]
Ok guys, I admit it, I draw terribly, but damn all those logos look so ''boring'' for a fun, comunity-driven travelling site! I bring you a traveller snake, it still doesn't have name, it is up to the Wikivoyagers to decide how to call it. It flies on a towel and goes everywhere! That is why it is so happy. It could even have the tongue out like a dog enjoying a car ride with the windows down. The colors can be taken from the official scheme, and this snake likes to form a W, the magic word (how else could a magic towel fly?!). Sometimes it likes to pose sideways and then you have a stilized W with a towel underscoring it. Artists, designers... help! This snake is angry at me for such a poor rendition, it says it can look much better! Materials used: pen on post-it. --[[User:Micru|Micru]] ([[User talk:Micru|talk]]) 16:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:There is a big, big smile on my face :) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::As a general rule, logos should be as simple as possible, but I am definitely intrigued. If you get someone to "computerize" it, it could have potential. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage_magic_carpet.svg|thumb]]
:::It is such a cute "mascot" idea that I had to help out :) [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::A girly snake with long eyelashes ! Yeahhhh [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] ([[User talk:Anthere|talk]]) 05:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Oh! Really great, Shyamal and Micro. Just one thing bothers me about the new image - the tongue is a bit longue proportional to the body. (And forked on both ends?) –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  11:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Too complicated for a wiki logo that has to be instantly recognizable, even when it's very small. However, this could be Wikivoyage's unofficial (or even official) mascot, our version of Wikipe-tan. [[User:Simon Peter Hughes|Simon Peter Hughes]] ([[User talk:Simon Peter Hughes|talk]]) 13:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Not for the logo, but it could be a nice and funny mascot :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I like the sketch better ;)--[[User:Arnaugir|Arnaugir]] ([[User talk:Arnaugir|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I'd be happy to keep snakey as a mascot floating around the site either way, but I still think this could be made into an icon. It would just have to be simplified a good bit. Unfortunately, my icon generating skills are poor. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I don't think there's any potential as a logo, but it's fantastic as a mascot for the site, something we would significantly benefit from. Any reason it is a snake, though? They seem to have a negative, dangerous and poisonous connotation. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I just wanted to commend Micru for bringing up the tone aspect to our logo considerations. There are 3-4 extremely strong logo submissions above, but all are pretty masculine and "techy." The masculine, techy demographic is not one we Wikimedians have trouble attracting. Having something really fun, bright, and whimsical (like a snake on a flying carpet) could be a good way to make our project more approachable for other demographics that we need to fill out a well-rounded travel guide to the world with lively writing—I hope we see some more submissions in this vein. Despite not being all that good at it, I'm going to try and vectorize and scale down this idea. Hopefully I'll generate something useful. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 01:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:Thank you all for your positive feedback :) The new drawing looks so, so much better! And we even have some name proposals "Snakey" or "[http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/374302#374302 Hoopy]". I have a friend who is designer and said that he would also try to do a "logo-ified" version. So exciting! --[[User:Micru|Micru]] ([[User talk:Micru|talk]]) 14:15, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::I LOVE the Snakey! We need more fun in the projects! :D --[[User:Waithamai|Waithamai]] ([[User talk:Waithamai|talk]]) 02:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 20 - ''Suitcase'' ==
<gallery>
[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|100px]]
File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|20px]] Suitcase
</gallery>
You might recognize this logo from [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1#Option 8 Suitcase]]. It´s simple and recognizable, even in a small version, as a logo should be. Some logos are to generic, it could be a logo for just anything, or they make the viewer associate it to something else than travels. All people think of travelling when they see a suitcase, it couldnt be about anything else. / [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 13:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I've been spoiled by wheeled rollaboards, but I see a briefcase here, not a suitcase. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 17:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::Coming from someone that carries suitcases on a flight like a man ([[File:Face-grin.svg|18px]]), I like this concept. It's unique enough that I don't think there's going to be any issues this time around. [[User:Signalizing|Signalizing]] ([[User talk:Signalizing|talk]]) 19:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I respect the effort that went into creating and submitting this proposed logo, but I don't find it elegant. There's a lot more to travel than luggage. Travel, to me, is above all about flexibility, imagination, discovery, and people learning more about the rest of the human race. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Exactly! Travel is motion. Luggage is hand/legcuffs. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 21 - ''Compass Rose Variation'' ==
<gallery>
File:Proposed logo wikivoyages 1.svg|[[File:Proposed logo wikivoyages 1.svg|20px]] Version 1
File:Proposed logo wikivoyages 2.svg|[[File:Proposed logo wikivoyages 2.svg|20px]] Version 2
</gallery>

Two variations with the [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Compass_roses Compass rose]. [[User:Lionel Allorge|Lionel Allorge]] ([[User talk:Lionel Allorge|talk]]) 11:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:Although it's not my favourite, I can state that it's very nice, in particular the second one that recall me a dynamic "Catherine wheel" (I hope the word it's correct :-P). --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like number 2. Maybe bigger <big>Ⓦ</big>, and wider triangles would look better. [[User:Ross Hill|Ross Hill]] ([[User talk:Ross Hill|talk]]) 17:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
: Ugly. Version 2 it's swastika. [[User:Digr|Digr]] ([[User talk:Digr|talk]]) 19:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 22 - ''The dhow'' (II) ==
<gallery>
file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow (2012).png|[[file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow (2012).png|20px]] Old version
file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow (2nd version - 2013 contest).png|[[File:Logo wikiVoyage dhow (2nd version - 2013 contest).png|20px]] 2nd version
file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (3rd version).png|[[file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (3rd version).png|20px]] 3rd version
file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (4th version).png|[[file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (4th version).png|20px]] 4th version
file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (5th version).png|[[file:Logo wikiVoyage dhow - 2013 contest (5th version).png|20px]] 5th version
</gallery>
[[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Option_39_The_Dhow|Already proposed]] last October. This is a proposal which focuses on the [[w:en:Dhow|dhow]], a vessel used in the Red Sea and Indian Ocean region, imho an excellent example of crosscultural connector. I was unhappy with the old version, made for the last year contest, because it wasn't enough "rounded". I've tried to smooth it out. I'm just an amateur graphic designer, so please help me with suggestions and svg-ification. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 21:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:The red line needs a white border or something if you but it on a colored background. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 21:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you. I've put a white background. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 21:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I definitely prefer the old version, since the new one looks to have grabbed an element directly from the Meta logo. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Definitely true. But... don't you think that the old one is too less rounded? Maybe I can quit the grabbed elements and leave the new version with no borders? I perceive the new versione better centered. Thanks for your comment. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 11:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::There's a third option now. :) These are all sketches, bad realized in terms of graphic technique. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 16:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::And a fourth. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 16:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I don't see any need for a circle in the logo. The first option looks cleanest and simplest to me, and those are things to aim for! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 18:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Thank you for your suggestions. I've put a fifth attempt. --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 23:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 23 - ''W-Plane'' ==
Author : [[User:Hugo Salt]]
<gallery>
file:HugoWikiVoyage1.png| version A Blue
file:HugoWikiVoyage2.png| version A Classic
</gallery>
<gallery>
file:HugoWikiVoyage1B.png| version B Blue
file:HugoWikiVoyage2B.png| version B Classic
</gallery>
<gallery>
file:HugoWikiVoyage1C.png| version C Blue
file:HugoWikiVoyage2C.png| version C Classic
</gallery>
Here's my entry : A plane to symbolize "Voyage" with the "W" in the background for "Wiki". Two color schemes proposed.

As proposed by [[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] , the version B includes a thicker circle (looks much nicer I think). Version C is lighter as the "W" background was removed.
:21:11, 18 July 2013‎ [[User:Hugo Salt]]
::Maybe make another version with either are darker background, or W. [[Special:Contributions/99.245.192.218|99.245.192.218]] 23:07, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::: I like the plane. Less the background. I would increase also the thickness of the circle. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 06:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Road sign? [[Special:Contributions/81.178.175.163|81.178.175.163]] 19:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::While it has an attractive simplicity to it, I don't like the W for two reasons. The "crashed V" font looks very similar to Wikipedia's W icon, and as mentioned for other submissions, W is not used in non-Latin language versions. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::C are far and away better than the previous one. I like them. Although you would sacrifice their simplicity (that is one strong point of that version), try to think on versions with one or two elements more, just to enrich it a little bit. I don't have tremendous idea at the moment :-) make&post some try, for example with four compass triangles on the circle (with the peak versus the outside), or maybe just two arrows with the head pointing the line of the circle itself as if the circle is rotating (to give an idea of moving). Something like that. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I like the C blue (I don’t really like the colors of C classic). Maybe you could try to add a shape of mountain under the plane? [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] ([[User talk:Fractal|talk]]) 10:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Here is something like what I have in mind: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HugoWikiVoyage1C-bis.png. Feel free to do whatever you want with it. [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] ([[User talk:Fractal|talk]]) 10:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I'm not feeling very good about the width of the circle. The first proposal is so skinny that it's kind of hard to see, but I prefer it over the wider circle, which is clunky and too obvious. Can I see it with a circle with a width in between the two? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 06:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::With the red circle, it looks like a "no airplanes taking off" or perhaps "no airplane traffic allowed" traffic-sign-style sign to European eyes. Amusing, but not really good for a Wikivoyage logo, I believe. In terms of logos comprising airplanes (slightly questionable - as if travel was only by airplane), I prefer Globe-trotter's submission by far. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 06:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 24 - ''Circle and arrows'' ==
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Ross Hill 1.png
File:Wikivoyage Ross Hill 2.png
</gallery>
Meant to look similar to Meta logo, with arrows like on a compass rose. I don't know why it turned out so small. [[User:Ross Hill|Ross Hill]] ([[User talk:Ross Hill|talk]]) 00:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:Why in the world would we want a logo similar to Meta-Wiki's?? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::I agree--we want a distinctive and unique logo. Given that Meta and Wikivoyage are incredibly different projects, why would Wikivoyage inspire a similar design? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 25 - ''White-blue world'' ==
<gallery>
File:wv_logo.png
Wv logo colored.png
</gallery>
I prefere the white-blue logo. Which one do you prefere? let me know because I would like to use only one of them. Thank you in advance.
Ah, Is the meaning of the image understandable? Horizon, mountains, route and W of Wikivoyage...
:It's a very good idea and has a lot of potential. The problem is that W. You cannot integrate the latin alphabet into the design, because not all countries covered by Wikipedia use it. Try to replace the W with something else and put the word Wikivoyage on the bottom.
:By the way, I like the first one far better. Try keeping it one solid color. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 15:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 26 - ''Travel modes'' ==
<gallery>
File:Submission A.png
</gallery>
My first submission. Don't know if it is to be my last. 
After going over the other submissions, I'm surprised none have use the plane and boat together yet! As per advice from other people, I've been gathering some details needed, and this is end result #1. I need some room for improvisation, though, like the square version. 
As for the font, I have no idea of it yet. 
I'm also planning to add a tagline, but just like the main one, I'm not sure of the font here, too... [[User:NJKFalcon|NJKFalcon]] ([[User talk:NJKFalcon|talk]]) 18:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC) 
:...Why two couple of brackets?
::It's a "wiki" reference. Don't know exactly how to put it in a way... [[User:NJKFalcon|NJKFalcon]] ([[User talk:NJKFalcon|talk]]) 18:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Similar idea to the [[mw:|MediaWiki]] logo. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 18:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::It's an In joke is it not? That's not helpful when reaching out to the public [[Special:Contributions/81.178.175.163|81.178.175.163]] 19:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Honestly I don't like it, but I'm writing you for a general suggestion. Wiki-brackets works for an internal logo, where all the audience knows exactly what they are (like the MediaWiki one). Wikivoyage has a different target, a much more wider one, that potentially they don't know how to write a wiki-article and they will never do, so for them the brackets will remain meaningless. Try something different. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::I don't mind the brackets themselves, but they need to go. They're making the central part of the design way too small. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 15:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 27 - ''Top-Plane'' ==
Author : [[User:Hugo Salt]]
<gallery>
file:HugoWikiVoyageTop1.png| Version 1
file:HugoWikiVoyageTop2.png| Version 2
</gallery>
Here's a second entry : A plane seen from top. We can find this kind of plane top-view representation in airports. Here are two variations.
:Looks like a road sign [[Special:Contributions/81.178.175.163|81.178.175.163]] 19:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::As with some other submissions above, this is very similar to the Meta logo, and I think we should be going for something unique, and more inspired by Wikivoyage itself. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 28 - ''V for voyage''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-V-for-voyage.svg|1
Wikivoyage-giweddah-V-for-voyage2.svg|2
</gallery>

The logo shows 3 colored pieces that forms a globe and a "V" for voyage. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:I really like this one! --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 14:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::The problem is that the V is not used in all of the languages that Wikivoyage covers. Therefore, in half the world, it will just be two lines and a circle... [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 15:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I know, but this is still nice. --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 16:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I think, it is not a big problem. VW, Mazda or Lexus sell cars in China and no one there can read the letters (VW, M, L) in the logos. A logo has to be unique and simple but not necessarily readable. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
::::I share Nick's concern, though--I think we should be an assertively multilingual project. Also, would you mind experimenting a bit with the colors. It's a little sad to see the Meta logo colors used in so many submissions! But yes, otherwise a nice, clean logo ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 18:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Clean and nice as a logo should be. I don't see as a problem the presence of latin characters, an infinity of global successful logo have. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 21:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: As a sidenote, I believe that Japanese pupils learn the Latin alphabet at school, so it is not true to say "no one there can read the letters". There is a fair amount of Latin characters and whole words and phrases written out using them in Japanese everyday life. That said, I am with Peter and Nick. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 06:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::The same for chinese pupils, AFAIK. :) --[[User:Pequod76|Pequod76]](''[[user talk:Pequod76|talk]]'') 09:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions

2013-07-20T12:11:22Z

JamesA: /* Colors */ re

{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/banner}}

==Upload image==
How should I upload a logo image? To Commons? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 17:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
: Yes.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 17:41, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

==Selective aplication of rules==
Option 9.10. and 11. have been removed as "While nice, this logo is improperly submitted. Rule one states: Eligibility. You can submit logos for consideration only if (i) you are the original creator, or (ii) they are attributed modifications of other logos submitted through this process. By submitting, you implicitly acknowledge that you have read and agree to these rules. The original creator is encouraged to resubmit." yet this also applies to option 2, 3 and 5. which have not been removed. this appears to be selective application of the rules. [[Special:Contributions/81.178.165.241|81.178.165.241]] 11:59, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:I think probably it was just not realized that there was more than one when those were closed down. I will check with the original submitters of those logos to see if they consent to their submission here. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::Asked them all. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

== Logo information page ==
Each proposed logo will have a logo-information page, a comment page and a vote page. The content of the information page will retrieved by the voting application if the voter/visitor wishes more information and will be also shown at the comment page and the vote page. If you would like to specify custom content for the information page, please create <code><nowiki>Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/i/filename.ext</nowiki></code> (without the File: prefix; Example: [[Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/i/Wikivoyage-logo.svg]]) with a very short text (images and excessive markup will be removed). Otherwise I will take it from the heading (for the first proposal this would be ''Flowing Arrow''), the first comment by the submitter and add the author. If you uploaded variants, for example for demonstrating print versions, favicons or the word mark, I will (possibly) add them to the comment and voting page.

Please note that after voting started, it will be impossible making changes to the logo, the information page and the voting page.

Thank you. -- [[User:Rillke|Rillke]] ([[User talk:Rillke|talk]]) 11:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

== Multiple similar submissions (variants) ==
I see multiple similar submissions. Since voters will have only 3 votes in total for R1, it might be better to finally submit only a small number of variants. The final voting gallery will not support captions or grouping the variants because the voter should decide based on the logo and not based on the text and they should vote for one concrete proposal.

If a logo with and without word mark is submitted, I will take the one with the first occurrence.

This results in [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Voting]] which I will regularly update with the latest proposals. Feel free to correct. -- [[User:Rillke|Rillke]] ([[User talk:Rillke|talk]]) 11:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

== Program ==

Whats the best program for OSX to design logos? [[User:Ross Hill|Ross Hill]] ([[User talk:Ross Hill|talk]]) 18:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:I use [[w:Inkscape|Inkscape]]. It's an open source vector drawer. Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 18:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::I can also recommend it. Also good for windows and linux. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 19:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

== Colors ==

Can we ban red/green/blue color schemes? Instantly discard any logo that uses it? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:No. Why? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::There seems to be this strange attraction towards the "meta" colour scheme. I have no idea why, as the WMF have no guidelines stating that new logos should preferably match colours. I mean, the most famous WMF project does not use the colours whatsoever! Pretty much the only projects which use the red/green/blue colour scheme are the "back-end" projects, of which Wikivoyage is not one and should not be one. I see this as another example of Meta/Wikipedia-bias in the process... [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 14:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::It is used by the content projects Wikidata, Wikispecies, and Incubator. Anyway, don't Wikivoyagers already have more sway in the vote? If you don't like those logos, don't vote for them. I see no reason to disqualify all logos with red, green, and blue. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 17:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::I'm surprised Wikidata and Incubator are described as content projects, is it just me? I think these colours have become a safe bet, they won't object to this....[[Special:Contributions/81.178.175.163|81.178.175.163]] 19:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Its people at Wikivoyage that would be objecting. There are an unknown number of them quite strongly opposed to the WMF colour scheme which they feel was imposed on them by outsiders in the last logo vote. I have no strong objection to them myself, and I don't see a problem with haggling over the colour scheme after the shape has been chosen. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 20:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|81.178.175.163}} Incubator is a content project, but in languages that currently don't have a project. Like Wikivoyage in Esperanto, or Wikipedia in small languages. Wikidata is content which can be used by external apps or by WIkipedias, e.g. in infoboxes. See [[Wikimedia projects]], although "backstage" is subjective. Anyway, {{ping|Pbsouthwood}} it's a good idea to judge based on shape/idea first, and then discuss what color would be best. Anyway, I'll ask someone involved in the logo selection to comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 20:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::While I like the idea of just outright banning stuff, it might be more workable to add a few recommendations to the top of the logo submissions page? I think the whole of Wikivoyage agrees that our new logo should 1) be distinct from other logos, something unique, 2) with a clear tie to the project's mission and culture. We can also recommend ''creativity'' 3) with the color scheme, and to be wary of simply rehashing schemes from other WMF projects. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
:Why not just submit alternative colours for each color scheme you don't like? That ''is'' permitted.· · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 21:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
::Because users seem to automatically gravitate towards the meta colours without understanding the goals and uniqueness of our project. I too would hesitate for a total ban, but a note in the recommendations that can be called upon in discussions/voting would be good. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:11, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions

2013-07-19T14:16:44Z

JamesA: /* Colors */ cmt

Talk:Wikimedia budget

2013-07-19T10:39:58Z

JamesA: /* Cost of Wikivoyage */

[[/Archive/]]

== 2012-13 ==
Tilman writes:
: The Wikimedia Foundation's 2012-13 Annual Plan has just been [https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf published], accompanied by a Q&A ([[wmf:2012-2013 Annual Plan Questions and Answers|2012-2013 Annual Plan Questions and Answers]])

Comments and suggestions are welcome; some were begun in a wikimedia-l [[mailing list]] thread this week. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  06:13, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Issues raised on Wikimedia-L mailing list:
*Total budget of $42.1 million US or (depending on page reviewed) $46 million US, seems high (Users Geni and Beria Lima)
*When adding together total income from previous year ($39.2 million), this is about an 18.2% increase in budget, small in comparison with previous years (User Tango/Tom Dalton)
*Increased budget tracks closely with [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/WMF_StrategicPlan2011_spreads.pdf strategic plan] (User Philippe WMF)
*Where will the 9.9 million in revenue come from in Q4? (User Risker) [See [[#April-June 2013 revenue]]]
*Wikimania travel is $255,000 for board, staff, volunteers; previous year (2011-12) was $96,000. Interested in further breakdown, including scholarships. (User Aude)
*Engineering core positions appear to include those positions supporting non-core activity. (User Risker)
*Many elements of strategic plan are non-core, puts the strategic plan at risk. (User Risker)
*Concerns that no community discussion page had been set up in conjunction with the announcement. (Multiple users)
===Cannot update data===
*It should be noted that, until this section was added within the last 12 hours, neither this talk page nor the main page had been edited since 2009. There are no updates to any financial activities in the interim, and the main page is protected so that no updated information can be added by anyone other than a Meta administrator. I still believe that a separate page would have been more appropriate to discuss this year's annual plan. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 09:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
**It appears the protection was added quite a while ago, before page protections were logged. [[User:Nemo bis|Nemo]] removed the protection earlier this morning, so all feel free to be bold and update the page. [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']] [[User talk:Thehelpfulone| '''Helpful''']] [[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone| '''One''']] 15:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

===Typos and misc===
* Note (g) at p. 59 is actually (f), see p. 60.
* At p. 41, for pt.wiki, "hosted" means "visited" and "Portuguese Wikipedia’s top contributors" means "Brazilian contributors who attended the meetups".[https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/03/22/brazil-meetups-march/]
* ...
* ...

===April-June 2013 revenue===
I see a surprising 9,9 M$ cash revenues in the plan for April-June 2013, p. 65 [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=65]: is this the so called spring fundraising? Does this mean that it becomes a regular thing to add up to the winter fundraising? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 05:55, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
::Nemo: This is when the Wikimedia Foundation expects to receive funding from the payment processing chapters for money collected during the annual fundraiser per the fundraising agreements and the FDC process.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 20:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Thank you, this explains it. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

===Shop===
311 k$ planned for the "merchandise" section, of which 197 are expenses to buy the materials I suppose, given that we have no more fees and they're not wages etc. (p. 69). There's no corresponding revenues entry, so I don't understand: is this at a loss? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 06:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Nemo, I'll get you a guaranteed answer about the break down (which is not very clear in the presentation) tomorrow (Thursday) I'm just verifying my numbers with Tony and Garfield. I do no however know that our net revenue is included in the revenue numbers. Our revenue and costs of goods sold ends up not being fully shown in the report it looks like (other then in the meta revenue number) but I'll break it down for you tomorrow. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 08:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::Hey Nemo, Sorry for the enormous delay on this but I'll try to break it down and am happy to answer more questions etc. (I promise faster this time ;) ).
::* Net revenue after Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) of $195k is included in the overall revenue (it's just not separated out).
::** This number is the difference between our budged revenue of $540k and the budgeted cost of sold merchandise of around $345k.
::** The COGS is calculated using our current average cost of about 64%. This is obviously an estimate/average (the bags on sale right now are actually sold at cost) but I actually expect this is likely to decrease if we continue growing as hoped because of a relatively large economy of scale for most of our products and obviously the cost of goods goes up and down based on actual revenue as well.
::* We are running a bit at a loss overall when all is said and done.
::**The $311k is actually the whole cost of operations (except for COGS which is just accounted for above in the net revenue) and includes my salary/cost, bank fees, design help, giveaways etc.
::** After accounting for the $195 revenue the shop currently is budgeted to 'cost' $116k. Much of this is $75k in community giveaways/merch grants that are covered for in the budget (which is a fair bit more then I originally expected because I thought most of it would be in the grants budget) as well as some other additions like our current shipping subsidy (20k budgeted).
::I'm hopeful that this will end up being lower for many reasons. We budged almost 20k for some some tax services that, more recently, we decided we could do better in house and so won't be spending most of that. I'm also hopeful that as we expand we will be able to find opportunities to reduce costs as we learn more and expand. We're thinking of looking at international fulfillment and production spots for example that could greatly help reduce not only customer cost (especially with unexpected customs fees) but our shipping subsidy etc . [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 01:56, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

==="the WMF annual plan covers the entire movement"===
From [[wmf:2012-2013_Annual_Plan_Questions_and_Answers#How_is_this_plan_different_from_previous_year.E2.80.99s_plans.3F]]. This is a contradiction in terms, see [[Wikimedia movement]], and very offensive. Please understand that the Wikimedia movement is made by the many people (first of all projects' contributors) with their individual efforts, not all labeled and categorized by the WMF or Wikimedia in general, and by several organizations. They are ''not'' covered at all by the WMF's budget, nor by the WMF's plans. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:04, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
:so that next year, WMF will be able to claim that they "made" WLM... [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] ([[User talk:Anthere|talk]])
:: Hello, I agree with the above (as do many people who contributed to the report). You don't need to convince the choir - just suggest better answers, or update the language so it is accurate :-) The annual plan, now that it includes grant and FDC funding, includes funding for the entire movement; roughly 1/3 of what is budgeted in the plan will go to non-WMF projects. That's what is intended.
:: And of course you are right that most of the work that really moves us forward -- makes us a movement, say -- is done without budget, without central infrastructure of any kind, other than a few shared platforms. It would be great to start describing and including this in our annual summaries of what the Projects are doing. *Some* annual overview needs to include highly important projects like WLM. My view is, the best solution would be a community-produced annual report. I'd like to hear better options. In the absence of anything like this, we are left with those linked from [[reports]]... of which the WMF report is becoming more global. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  00:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:: Anthere: thanks for the constructive feedback :( SJ: sounds like an interesting proposition, how to find the right balance is going to be a challenge, but it will be interesting to see how we can make that happen...[[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 09:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::: It seems very simple to me, you only have to replace that sentence with "covers all the income from the WMF sites fundraising and related expenditure", or something like that. It would make immediately clear that you're only talking about money and that even speaking of money, organized activities and budget of the Wikimedia movement much is left out. Thanks, [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::: That's good: precise and informative. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  19:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
::::: I made the change -- Nemo, if it doesn't resolve the issue, just say so :-) Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:20, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::Thank you, Sj and Sue. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 17:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

== FDC costs ==

Which budget does the FDC's costs come out of? There will be staff, travel and accommodation at face-to-face meetings, training and maybe a few other items. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 15:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

::Tango: On page 59 of the Annual Plan document it list $11,476,000 in funding for the FDC. This budget is what is designated to cover FDC operating expenses and annual plan funding.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 17:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Thank you. It says elsewhere that the money the FDC will be allocating is $11.2m, so the expected cost is $276k? Is there a breakdown of that? I was able to come up with some plausible guesses that came to that number with a roughly 50/50 split between staff and travel/accommodation (with other costs being minimal). Is that about right? --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 20:44, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
::::Going from memory, yes, Tango, your breakdown is roughly correct. It's staff+travel: there are no other significant FDC costs. [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 19:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

== COI with GAC budget ==

I see the GAC budget is going to be part of the WMF's FDC application. However, the GAC is managed by Anasuya, who is part of the FDC staff. Isn't that a massive conflict of interest? How can Anasuya impartially support the FDC in making decisions about whether people that report to her should get funding or not? --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 15:21, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
:The [[Grant Advisory Committee]] (GAC) is not managed by Anasuya; it is a group of ''volunteers'' regularly asked to review proposals submitted to the [[Grants:Index|Wikimedia Grants]] program. They don't report to anyone at all.
:There is indeed an obvious COI in having FDC staff be employed by and working at the Foundation. This has been discussed extensively during the drafting of the FDC proposal on-wiki, as well as in the advisory group. As far as I can tell, the conclusion was that the benefits outweigh the risk posed by COI, and some countermeasures were adopted, and the Board has sanctioned this arrangement. One of those countermeasures is already evident, in that the FDC eligibility criteria are all fact-based and do not rely on FDC staff's subjective judgment. Once again: the COI exists, but everyone is to do their best to mitigate the risk it poses. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 20:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
::Apologies, I should have said "Wikimedia Grants Programme" (it's become common to refer to it as the GAC, even thought the GAC is just part of it). Specifically, she manages you. I agree that the general COI of having the FDC staff employed by the WMF is manageable and worth it, but the specific COI of having part of the WMF's application fund a programme managed by a member of the FDC staff is another matter entirely. I don't think that COI can be managed. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 22:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Can you offer a specific scenario that demonstrates how this particular COI plays out? I mean, like other programs in the WMF's non-core budget, the Grants program is being included in the WMF's FDC proposal, and the WMF will need to convince the ''FDC members'' (not FDC staff) that its spending on it is justified and high-impact, as part of its general argumentation and support of its larger FDC proposal. How do you envision the fact Anasuya manages me affecting the FDC's decision? [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 22:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
::::Anasuya has a very clear interest in you getting your funding, since you are part of her team. The FDC staff have significant influence on the FDC, since they give advice. That advice may be based on pre-determined criteria, but there is plenty of room for interpretation in assessing those criteria. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 22:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::Yes, the interest is obvious. We can all be assumed to have an "inertia" interest, i.e. to be interested in keeping on doing what we do, on the assumption that we generally consider what we're doing effective. The FDC's role is to assess and balance competing proposals, and I very much doubt there is much the FDC ''staff'' can say to actually bias the FDC's perception of the Grants program (which is exceptionally open to outside observation and assessment), so again, while I acknowledge the COI, I'm not sure how much of a threat it is that the FDC staff would subvert the FDC members' perceptions and judgments in its assessments of the proposals.
:::::If there's nothing more specific you have in mind, perhaps we can leave it at that and see if there are other points of view on this. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 23:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::I think you are seriously underestimating the role of the FDC staff. If it were as you describe, why was someone with Anasuya's extensive experience hired? How would that experience be of any value if she had no influence? If all that was required was basic administration, they would have just hired someone straight out of high school. I have asked Stu to comment here, in his capacity as Chair of the WMF Audit Committee. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 00:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::::So lets look at the alternatives. There are two options. First: The WGP (RIP GAC) gets its funding outside of the FDC process = no COI. Second: The GAC gets its financing through the FDC, potential for a COI. But if we assume that this was the choice that was to be made, isn't a good sign that the foundation wanted to move the GAC budget through the FDC, to ensure that this is also something that is looked at critically by the FDC? I was a big supporter of having the WGP (and other (micro)grants programs) apply to the FDC.... And what application to the FDC is going to be looked at most closely by EVERYONE? Yes the one that the Foundation makes... I think that the transparancy that is applied throughout the process alongside an extensive evaluation is enough of a safeguard and I think that the advantages of this outweigh the disadvantages... [[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 09:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::You are missing an option: have the FDC staff be as independant of the rest of the WMF as possible, which was what we discussed (there was talk of having them completely external, but it was decided they should be part of the WMF to keep things simple and so they would have a better understanding of the movement, they weren't supposed to be part of the WMF so that they could also do other WMF work). My problem isn't with the WGP being funded via the FDC. My problem is with Anasuya being involved in both. If you are on the FDC staff then that should be all you do. That's what I understood to be the proposal when it was discussed and it was on that understanding that I supported having the FDC staff employed by the WMF. There is a COI inherent in working in the same office and people you are involved in funding decisions for, but it is a small and manageable one. There is a much bigger COI inherent with being involved with funding decisions for people you actually work closely with and that report to you. I don't think that COI is manageable. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 11:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::: This is where we simply disagree. I don't think you can ever separate the FDC staff support from the rest of the foundation. Not only does it give you a superficial solution to the COI (these people are still colleagues who still share the same employer?) but it also misses out from the benefits that this kind of cooperation could have. The expertise needed in one area (and lessons learned) are very useful in the other... That aside from the fact that a separate office (with support etc) is simply a lot of overhead. And again: its a transparent proces, everyone, including you, will be watching... how about seeing where this goes, what incredible risk are we running for this specific case?[[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 11:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::Come on, Jan-Bart... you're making a habit of this. Please read what I write more carefully before you respond. I very clearly said that I support having the FDC staff work out of the WMF office and that I think the COI inherent in that is small and manageable. What I have a problem with is the FDC staff working very closely with (in this case, managing) specific WMF staff whose work is funded by the FDC. That is entirely avoidable. The WGP can still benefit from Anasuya's experience (I hope the FDC staff will provide advice and guidance to all FDC applicants on how to improve their programmes), but it doesn't need to be managed by her. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 12:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::No I was making the general statement with regards to a stict or a loose seperation. Both the strict version and the loose one are just superficial solutions to the COI problem (again: they are colleagues and they work together) . Having the same manager has many advantages and giving them a different manager and resulting inefficiency in overhead and communications is a cost which I think is not worth it. And for the third time: what are you afraid of? It will be a public process and everyone will be able to watch this, and the WGP will undoubtedly be a very public process (it has been so far, with public presentations showing the failures/successes etc. Do you think the budget will suddenly double and no one will be the wiser? The foundation has much to lose if we were to manipulate the system, and if we wanted to do that we wouldn't have changed the system...[[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 12:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::I completely disagree. COIs are always matters of degree. It is rarely possible to eliminate them entirely, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and minimise them. The interest someone has in a person they manage is obviously far greater than the interest they have in some random person employed by the same organisation and working in the same office. The FDC cannot work efficiently if it has to be constantly second guessing the advice it recieves from its support staff because they are so heavily conflicted. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 14:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::Then we agree to disagree. I think it is worthwhile to minimize any COI, but one has to look at the costs, benefits and risks of every measure. In this case I think that the benefits of the situation outweigh the disadvantages (risks). One of the reasons is that this is a one time decision (before we evaluate it again next year I assume that there will be just one grant request) in a transparent process which results in another process (the grant making itself) which is also a completely transparent process. And after having having talked to Anasuya I am have no fears that this will be done in the most transparent weight. But then again: thats just my opinion :) [[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 15:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Many Wikimedia bodies (the WMF, chapters) are becoming grant-makers. We should be developing experience and expertise in making grants of varying sizes. So regardless of what happens with the FDC and GAC this coming year, the Foundation needs someone like Anasuya, and the movement needs participation from more people with similar backgrounds. Making grants to others is one of the significant ways we can support projects; I would say that the WMF has traditionally erred on the side of 'hiring contractors' rather than 'making grants' out of a lack of familiarity with all of the ways grants can be a helpful channel. I am glad that this is changing. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  00:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course the simple solution to avoiding COI is not have WMF apply for money which it raised in the first place from one of its own committee. That has seem convoluted and crazy to me from the start. [[User:KTC|KTC]] ([[User talk:KTC|talk]]) 09:02, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:The argument is that there activities that the Foundation performs which are "non-core". These activities should be weighed against other activities performed by other movement parties. EG: Why would de UK Grants program have to apply through the FDC (as part of the chapter budget) and the Foundation wouldn't? Arguably they do the same thing and I can imagine that each program has its own (geographic or otherwise) advantages or disadvantages.[[User:Jan-Bart|Jan-Bart]] ([[User talk:Jan-Bart|talk]]) 09:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:: NB: the FDC is a community committee, not a Board committee: it is chaired by a community member and composed of community members. It is supported by the WMF just as the movement as a whole is. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  04:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

==Financial risks - one off donations==

For a charitable movement Wikimedia is heavily dependent on one off donations, but that doesn't seem to be acknowledged as a risk, nor do I see a plan to reduce that. I realise that it takes time to build up more predictable longterm revenue streams, but I would suggest that the Foundation acknowledge this as a risk and set some targets for reducing that risk by raising enough by other means to fund the core services for the foreseeable future. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 16:21, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
: Yes. This was an intentional focus for a few years, but now it would make sense to diversify again. Encouraging recurring donations, or to a notion of recurring non-voting membership in the movement, are both options to consider. And we seem to be doing increasingly well at finding a variety of foundations to support our work, something I would like to see accelerate. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  00:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:: Introduction of a recurring donations system has been considered one of the major successes of last fundraising by some WMF staff, but incongrously the monthly revenue graph seems not to expect any revenue from it. It would be interesting to see if the bigger focus on this by WMUK has paid off. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 19:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::It is difficult to know how to judge the success of WMUK's effort with recurring donations, but the monthly reports [[wmuk:Reports|here]] include a fundraising section that specifies how much was raised each month. For example, the June report says "there were 6,328 successful direct debits this month, bringing in a total of £26,061.87" (direct debits are the way WMUK does its recurring donations - it's the standard method charities use in the UK). There is certainly a steady stream of money coming in from them. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 20:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::WereSpielChequers: I would appreciate seeing your source data for your comments that the current revenue plan consisting of the Wikimedia Foundation portion of the annual fundraiser, the payment processing chapters portion of the annual fundraiser and Wikimedia Foundation grants and gifts creates a higher than normal risk profile for a not for profit organization. There is some discussion in the the charitable press [http://philanthropy.com/blogs/money-and-mission/shattering-the-myth-about-diversified-revenue/26652] in the United States that greater diversification may not lead to greater financial stability.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 18:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::I don't think WSC was proposing diversification, particularly. If you emphasise recurring donations, it will generally be the same people making them as were making the one-off donations, they just make them more reliably. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 20:41, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::@Gbyrd, There is a risk of a medium sized charity spreading its fundraising too thin and not getting economies of scale. I've had some dealings with a smaller charity than the WMF which was raising money through a mix of merchandising, legacies, charity shops, one off small donations, recurring small donations (including payroll giving), charity fun runs, large donations and corporate sponsorship. I'm not going to name them partly because I suspect they'd be miffed if I pointed out that they'd spread themselves too thin to be efficient, and at the end of that they were extremely diverse in fundraising methods but necessarily focussed on a catchment area less in population than the average US state - and inextricably bound to that area's economy. Considering our total size, the WMF and its chapters are, as I understand it, unusually diverse in the geography from which we receive donations. But we are heavily dependent on one off small donations, and have very little revenue from longterm commitments such as Payroll giving and direct debit. We may have some medium term commitments from large grant giving bodies, and I'd hope we have a donors list which we've started to Email an appeal to each year. I'm pretty sure that merchandising is still more a reward to volunteers than a useful fundraising stream, and even with the greying of the pedia and the average Wikipedian ageing by more than a year per year I doubt that legacies will be more than a few percent of our funds for the next decade or so. So my understanding is that the WMF and its chapters have a high diversity of geography, and of donors, but a low diversity of fundraising methods. The only real weak point that I see is that it is overly focussed on short term one off donations. Aside from these being usually less cost effective than building up a longterm relationship with a donor, this leaves us very vulnerable to fashion and the fickleness of public opinion. A scandal sufficient to dissuade many new donors from giving us money would be likely to have far less effect on direct debit income. There are charities that I've supported for more than twenty years by direct debit, but there've certainly been years I'd have skipped if instead I had to remember to release a payment to them each year. I'd also make the point that your fundraising needs to be attuned to your support base, and the profile of your fundraising needs to be synchronised with your spending needs. If we were a disaster relief charity focussed on one particular natural disaster then there would be little point developing longterm revenue streams such as direct debits or legacies, better to focus on asking people to give money today. But as a charity writing encyclopaedias, dictionaries and so forth that we hope to make permanently available it would be better if we had predictable revenue for decades to come. Once we have some confidence in future revenues we can make commitments to our GLAM partners that digital media released to us will be around for the longterm. And of course our supporters skew towards childlessness means that in the longterm we should be developing a legacy team in our fundraising department.
:::::Sorry that was so long. The shorter version is don't be too hung up about diversity of how we raise funds, we easily mitigate that by the incredible and improving diversity of where in the world we collect those funds from. But do be concerned that we are using short term fundraising programs whilst our needs are longterm. I'd suggest a strategy for the rest of this decade of shifting from one off donations to direct debit or at least repeat donors, and for the longer term look to legacies to build an endowment fund. [http://philanthropy.com/blogs/money-and-mission/shattering-the-myth-about-diversified-revenue/26652 Philanthropy.com] is right to caution organisations of our size from spreading themselves too thin by going for too diverse a fundraising mix, but even they'd concede that two channels are better than one, and I don't know the time-scale they used to conclude that two were better than three. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 19:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

==Financial risks of globalisation==
The plan seems to assume that much of the financial risk is with the four remaining payment processing chapters. But globalisation itself incurs risks, including that in some countries it isn't a local registered charity that is collecting the money. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 16:21, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

==Exchange rates==
Wikimedia moves quite a bit of money between different exchange rates, but I don't see exchange rate fluctuation on the risk list. there are ways to mitigate this, most obviously by keeping some donations in the donor country currency. But it should be acknowledged as a risk. I gather that some of the risk has been offloaded to chapters and other grant recipients outside the US. But a strategy of evaluating and paying all such grants in dollars has two downsides, if the dollar is strong the recipient gets more money than they actually asked for, if the dollar is weak then they get less money than was intended or may be necessary. Financially it makes the accountancy easier if everything is measured in dollars, but when currencies fluctuate it is a wasteful strategy. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 16:21, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
:It doesn't seem to be spelt out in the FDC framework, but I think the conclusion from the discussions about currencies was that applicants should apply in their local currency and the WMF would take on the currency risk (since it is exposed to a large number of foreign currencies, there is some diversification of that risk - if a chapter takes on the risk, it has no diversification at all). The application form asks for the amount in both USD and local currency. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 16:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
::Well if so I'm glad we got that concession, when I gave up on the FDC stuff things weren't looking very hopeful. But it does expose the WMF to exchange rate risks and it would be sensible to recognise this and make allowances for it in the plan. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 17:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
:::The currency risk only exists for the short time between the FDC making its recommendations and the grants getting paid (about 2 months). There is a risk, but it isn't particularly large. There will be money held in GBP, EUR and CHF by the fundraising chapters, which will hedge the risk quite a bit. It is certainly a risk that needs to be monitored, but I'm not sure it's one of the top risks the WMF is facing (there are a lot more risks that you could ever include in a summary plan like this one). --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 17:27, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
::::If they've moved from paying grants in dollars to paying them in the local currency then yes I suppose it is no longer one of the biggest risks. In absolute terms a currency fluctuation could cost quite a bit, but unlike say a fraud it has less reputational effect per dollar lost. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 10:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
:::::If grants are all denominated in dollars (it doesn't matter what they are actually paid in, that's just a technicality) then there is no risk to the WMF. The risk to the WMF only exists if they are denominating grants in local currency. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 11:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
::::::The risk of not following the budget would be minimised if the grants were all denominated in dollars. But in exchange you'd be risking having some programs underfunded due to exchange rate fluctuations and others funded more generously than you'd intended. Neither being a good situation for a charity. I'm happy that the overall risk to the WMF is lower if they pay in local currencies, and the WMF has sufficient reserves it can take the risk, though presumably if there was a really bad run on the dollar they'd have to respond. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 15:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Grants budget ==

Q: From [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-July/121457.html] -- "how much money the WMF plans on distributing through the GAC,
whether it is significantly different than last year"

A: The Wikimedia Grants program budget for this fiscal year (2012-13) is '''$400,000'''. This does not include the [[Participation:Support|the Participation Support]], [[Wikimania/Scholarships|Wikimania scholarships]] (please help fix them!), and the very large contribution toward Wikimania's costs we make each year, which are all budgeted for separately. That is, up to $400,000 are reserved solely for distribution as Wikimedia Grants. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 00:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

:So is the Wikimania stuff included in the "Funding through GAC" on page 55, because that is a different number than above. If there is some obvious math that I am missing to account for this, please correct me! I have a real problem with keeping numbers straight, especially when switching between different presentation formats. If there is something math related that seems too obvious to be pointed out, it probably isn't in my case. But as far as I can tell slide 55 must have be a different accounting than the Wikimedia grants program budget.--[[User:BirgitteSB|BirgitteSB]] ([[User talk:BirgitteSB|talk]]) 01:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::''The above question was clarified In the subsection below. The figures on the slide were not just chapter grants as I was assuming, but all grants and Wikimania scholarships, etc.''

::One more question, what is the apples to apples number for last fiscal year that correlates with the $400,000 budget for 2012-13?--[[User:BirgitteSB|BirgitteSB]] ([[User talk:BirgitteSB|talk]]) 18:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::I don't think there is one. A lot of the grants the GAC paid out last year will be done by the FDC this year, but the FDC will also pay out other grants (eg. to the WMF and fundraising chapters). Since we don't know what the FDC will pay out to who, it is difficult to compare. I guess you can assume the FDC gives the WMF its requested amount, and then compare last year's GAC budget plus the funds retained by fundraising chapters to this year's GAC budget, plus the FDC budget, minus the WMF request. That gives you the total amount from the fundraiser not being spent directly by the WMF for each year. Neither of those numbers is the $400k, though. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 18:52, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
===Note on "grants"===
Confusingly, the word '''grants''' is used in at least two senses and at least three contexts in the annual plan document. Here's my unauthorized stab at disambiguating it:
* '''grants''' on [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=45 page 45] and [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=49 page 49] means [[Grants:Index|the Wikimedia Grants program]] (as well as [[Participation:Support|the Participation Support]] program WMF co-funds with [[Wikimedia Deutschland]])
* '''Grants''' on [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=55 page 55], ''super confusingly'' under "'''Spending'''", refers to WMF's spending of a '''grant''' it ''received'' from the Stanton Foundation, i.e. has nothing to do with WMF's own grant-making.
* '''Grants''' and Fellowships" on [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=59 page 59] are bundled together (maybe to fit on the slide? I really don't know.). For the Grants program budget itself, see the previous section.
* "Awards and '''grants'''" in [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=69 page 69] is a category used by our finance dept., and I think it would be best if Garfield can speak to it, but it clearly includes much more than the Grants program. Let's wait for further clarification on that.

I hope this disperses at least some of the fog. :) [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 00:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

:How about the top of page 55. "Funding through GAC"? Is that the full accounting of what GAC did/will fund or are there funds from GAC that are not tied to chapters?--[[User:BirgitteSB|BirgitteSB]] ([[User talk:BirgitteSB|talk]]) 01:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::Good catch! That, of course, should read "Wikimedia Grants program". ''None'' of the Wikimedia Grants budget is "tied to chapters". It's all available for absolutely any individual, group, or organization that cares to submit a proposal. While the majority of recipients have historically been chapters, we have [[Grants:Index/Requests|already supported a number of individuals, unincorporated groups, and non-movement organizations]] through the Grants program in the past year.
::That ''is'' the full accounting, though the more precise figure is the one I gave above -- $400K -- the figure on page 55 includes Participation Support and Wikimania Scholarships. [[User:Ijon|Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants)]] [[User_talk:Ijon|talk]] 01:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
:::I just asked that above as you answered! I had skimmed the heading labeled "Chapters and others" as "Chapters . . .", so I was thinking everything in the grey box was just about chapters. Which accounts for a good deal of my confusion on this line. Thanks for clearing this up.--[[User:BirgitteSB|BirgitteSB]] ([[User talk:BirgitteSB|talk]]) 02:02, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
::::"Award and Grants" is the funding designated for the FDC. The Wikimedia Foundation, as part of it's funding request to the FDC, will be requesting funding for the Wikimedia Grants Program, Wikimania support, Wikimania scholarships and Fellowships.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 18:38, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimania travel question ==

So, I got some answers about Wikimania travel from [[wmf:User:Tle|Tony]] in WMF's finance department. The comparisons I got from him:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! !!Haifa (2011) !! D.C. (2012) !! Notes
|-
|Total costs|| $103K || $225K budgeted ||
|-
| Attendees || ~50 || 108 || (staff, contractors, board, advisory board)
|-
| Hotel costs||~$135/night || ~$215/night ||
|}
He also mentioned that on average, the duration of stay for DC was longer as other events were tagged on to Wikimania (e.g., AdaCamp, Education Program). Hope that helps! [[User:Jwild|Jwild]] ([[User talk:Jwild|talk]]) 19:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
* Jeepers, where were the staff staying for that amount of money per night?! WMUK staff and trustees were staying in a hotel that cost $149/night, and I thought that was expensive! [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 04:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
*:$149/night ''plus tax''. You're forgetting the ridiculous US custom of quoting pre-tax prices. There were some WMF staff in the same hotel as the WMUK staff and trustees. There was another hotel that was a bit more expensive (and further from the venue and, apparently, not as nice...) that some other WMF staff and, I think, the WMF board stayed in. The high price of the hotels was a concern raised well before the conference, but apparently there was nothing to be done about it. I'm sure future juries will pay more attention to hotel prices when assessing bids, having learned from this year (it was probably the biggest problem with the whole conference, with the possible exception of late invite letters to visa applicants). --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 11:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
*:: Actually, I was making the assumption that the $215 was the pre-tax price ... I think I've been in the US for too long now! ;-) But given what you say, perhaps it did include tax, or else the other hotel must have been a fair bit more expensive... Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 14:55, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
*:::The other hotel was $216.41/night with tax [http://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Accommodation#The_Dupont_Circle_Hotel]. So actually, I expect the WMF's average costs were a little lower than $215, since they weren't all in the most expensive hotel. -[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 17:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
*:::: I'm afraid that I'm really struggling to get my head around this. We're talking nearly a quarter of a million dollars here - and there seems to be no public report regarding how this money was effectively spent to further Wikimedia's global mission. What charitable activities did this money end up funding, and where is the report on that expenditure? [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
*:::::We never get proper reports on Wikimanias - it is a big problem. I understand that the local team is always exhausted afterwards, but it still needs to be done. It makes it impossible to hold people to account and it also makes it very difficult for subsequent Wikimania organisers to plan. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 21:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
*:::::: In this case, I'm more interested in the WMF providing such a report, rather than the Wikimania local team... [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
*:::::::Indeed, it's very weird that the WMF never provides any report about Wikimania spending. In the past, I had to dig financial reports and forms 990 and I got very little even from them (not even number, let alone justifications). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 22:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
*Outdenting. Why is it strange that the WMF doesn't report in detail on Wikimania? I don't think it's strange. $225K is not a large amount of money in a budget of 29MM, and I think it would be odd for the Wikimedia Foundation to report in an extremely high level of detail for that 225K relative to other similar-sized expenditures. I do think that the local teams should report on Wikimania, and their report would and should account for the amount of funding that came from the WMF. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner|talk]]) 00:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
*:Perhaps the WMF should be giving more detailed reports on other similar sized spending as well - the reports we get from the WMF aren't really in enough detail for volunteers and donors to hold it to account (they are a similar level of detail as other charities give, but we generally hold ourselves to high standards of transparency than other charities). That said, I think the level of detail above is sufficient for that particular line item (although that was only supplied because someone asked) - for travel and accommodation, the number of people and the total spend is enough, we don't need to be able to micromanage the WMF's individual choices of who to send and what hotel to put them in. The WMF's total spend on Wikimania is substantially larger than $225k, and a full report on that would be appreciated. I don't see any need for separate WMF and local team reports, but the reports probably need to be jointly written in order to be sufficiently complete. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 11:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
*::I didn't ask details, we don't even know the totals. Here we do, but only for a subset of the expense. And yes, of course I'd like to see more breakdowns of expenditure also for other kinds of activities (i.e. the total for each program, rather than super-generic headlines like "technology" etc.), but Wikimania is the most obscure, also because it has a mixed source of income (WMF, organizers, attendees, sponsors) and for instance we have no idea of what's the share. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 12:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

**Hi Sue, Just for the sake of comparison, I'd like you to consider the past budgets for Wikimania, and how much was spent on the scholarship grants for wikimedians? It wouldn't surprise me if either or both of those were less than just the travel budget to cover travel expense for staff members across the same country this year. The entire conference might and have been funded in the past for less than that amount. Just because the budget keeps rising at a high rate does not justify these expenses being sidelined. More donor funds should mean, more responsibility and transparency, not less. More responsibility to manage those funds well, at quarter of a million dollars to fund travel and 3 day stay @ $215/night for staff doesn't seem very efficient. Anyway, my concern is this could have been managed much better, you may recall the alternative hotel recommendations, or the ideas I suggested a couple of months ago for bulk-bookings. Regards. [[User:Theo10011|Theo10011]] ([[User talk:Theo10011|talk]]) 04:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
***I wouldn't say that it was a matter of "better" or "more efficient" simply very different. I see at least five different groups of Wikimania attendees. Staff, subsidised Wikimedians, subsidised non or potential Wikimedians, unsubsidised Wikimedians and unsubsidised others. For the staff this is an important event, and an important opportunity to interact with each other and the rest of the community. But it is a very expensive way to enable staff to socialise with each other. It is also an extremely inefficient way to recruit new Wikimedians, except possibly those who were in town anyway. So my preference would be for an event that aimed to maximise the number of active Wikimedians who attended, and only brought in staff where there was a strong reason. In some cases it may even be appropriate for staff who need to participate in one session to do so by video. However it is important when handling costs to get the right budget headings. If our fundraising team continues to use Wikimania to recruit the Wikimedians who they use in fundraising appeals then their attendance is welcome, but should be considered a fundraising cost, not a Wikimania cost. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 15:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Coming to Wikimania and explaining what it is they are doing is a key part of making the staff accountable to the community. Having more staff coming to Wikimania goes some way towards opening up the black box that the WMF can sometimes be. You could do that by video link, I suppose, but it isn't the same. You can't catch someone in the corridor after their talk to ask them about it if they gave their talk from SF. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 21:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::I don't dispute that we need quite a few staff to attend. But beyond a certain point it makes them less accountable as the staff become a clique within Wikimania who mix less than if there were fewer of them there. It is also expensive to send staff, hence my suggestion that the WMF send fewer of them. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 21:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Now that the WMF is narrowing its focus, I hope to see us start spending significantly less on Wikimania - both in staff overhead to help with planning (something I have never been a fan of, since the time I was a 'mania organizer myself) and in funds spent on flights and hotels. I think we can do a better job of combining our hotel choices with those of other attendees, and we should definitely be investing in good solutions for global videoconferencing. (That's both good for the budget and good for limiting our carbon footprint - both for large meetings such as Wikimania and for small 8-person gatherings.) –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  04:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
:Sj, very pleased to see your thoughts on this, including a rare mention on WMF sites of the carbon intensity involved in some offline activities. For some time it's struck me as odd that an organisation as quintessentially online as ours is funding carbon-intensive, not to mention financially expensive, physical stuff to the extent that we appear to have done over the past few years. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 11:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

== Reserves ==

In 2011-12, the reserve was projected to stay above 5.2 months of expenses.

In 2012-13, it is projected to stay above [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2012-13_Wikimedia_Foundation_Plan_FINAL_FOR_WEBSITE.pdf&page=39 6 months] of expenses (actually: 6.3 months at the low point). This is measured in terms of cash budget [tracking the cash that passes through the WMF's hands]. For the first time in 2012, this cash budget is different from the non-cash budget. The $2.65M of funds allocated by the FDC to payment-processing chapters dont pass through the WMF, but stay with the chapter. So the non-cash budget is $42.1M, but the cash budget is $39.4M.
: For example: the $19.7M projected reserve for October 2012 was set to be exactly 6 months of the year's cash budget. The actual cash reserve ended up being $20.8M. This was noted in a monthly report as "[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF_Revenue_%26_Expenses_October_2012_-_Actual_vs_Plan.png 5.92 months] of [non-cash] expenses", but it is 6.32 months of cash expenses, the measure used for the reserve.
: This difference is confusing; we should switch to tracking everything in terms of a single measure next year.

The projected reserve is the minimum reserve through the year: in practice this is reached in the month before the fundraiser begins. In future years fundraising will be more spread out over the entire year and we may see much smaller fluctuations.)

=== Endowment ===
An [[endowment]] for technical hosting/bandwidth support has been discussed for some years. It was agreed that this should be messaged specifically, and perhaps separately from the rest of the annual fundraiser. This has been on the back burner over the past year, but is ripe for development. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 

== 2012-13 Fundraising targets ==
The 2012-13 annual plan fundraising goal was set at $46.1 million, in line with the five-year plan and projected expenses; as well as a slight increase in the reserve.

The fundraiser this year is split into two parts: one in November-December in some countries (with a target of $25M), and one in March-April in the rest of the world. The majority of funds is expected to be raised in the first part of the fundraiser.

== Remove nonessential functions ==

Remove nonessential functions

I request that
* Wikimedia Foundation only pay for server administration and coding and therefore remove the functions [Community Advocacy, Communications, Fellowships, Mobile partnerships, Learning and Grantmaking, Global Education, Internationalization, Research and Development](http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors?showall=1)
* I'm given the option to disable fundraising messages on Wikimedia Foundation sites until this request is granted
*: ''posted without signing''

:You may find [[wmf:Vote:Narrowing Focus]] interesting. It doesn't go as far as you ask, but it's a step in that direction. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 20:35, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

== Proposal: Sharing future forecasts and annual plans ==

Currently, the WMF publishes internally a midyear "[[wmf:File:2012-13_Year-to-Date_and_Lookahead_to_Planning_for_2013-14.pdf|lookahead]]" projection about the next annual plan, each January.

This is not made public until the minutes of the Q3 board meeting come out -- usually along with the midyear financial report. For the past two years, this has been in early March, ~6 weeks after the initial projection is shared internally. The current lookahead includes targets for the budget and staff growth, but no further financials.

Starting in the next fiscal year, I propose that we:
# Publish the lookahead (or a summary of it; whatever is convenient, no need to be [[wmf:File:2012-13_Year-to-Date_and_Lookahead_to_Planning_for_2013-14.pdf|100 slides long]]) to the community soon after it is shared internally - before the first Board meeting of the year.
#* This allows other community planners to benefit from the forecast
#* Any discussion around it does not need to involve staff; this publication can be for information porpoises only.
# Publish the final draft of the plan when it is submitted to the Board for approval, rather than after the fiscal year starts.
#* This is not for feedback; simply for transparency. At this point the plan is fixed.

=== Related ideas ===
* Include a brief second year's forecast in the annual plan (just as we included a 5-year forecast in the 5-year strategic plan, each annual plan can include an equally brief forecast of the next year. So far we have matched very closely to the initial forecasts in the 5-year plan, but in general that may change.)
** Include a mid-year update to this in the lookahead, in the same format. This largely exists already, though it might be a bit more nuanced/distilled. (For instance, in the past we have discussed such things as the projected evolution of the % of the budget given to overhead or reserves).

* Ask for FDC feedback on the full WMF annual plan.
** This should not require a special format - the format we normally use for our plans should be fine. It seems this past year there was a lot of overhead involved in carving out the part of our plan that was for FDC review; then making our existing plan align with the FDC system. Since we designed both systems, we could instead make the FDC process flexible enough to support what we already do.
** We should change our shared expectation of that review: the FDC is not directly determining the WMF budget (at least not the core elements), but their input will be welcome and respected in the process.
** If the timing doesn't work out, this could be later than the current FDC deadline; but ideally we would time our planning to match that of other entities.
** This sort of feedback could serve as a more direct model for chapters and other movement entities. And it would simplify the work of both the staff (who only need to produce one plan) and the FDC (who no longer need two different criteria for evaluating the WMF plan and chapter plans).

–[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  20:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

== 2013-14 ==

* [[wmf:File:2013-2014 WMF Plan As Published.pdf|2013-2014 '''WMF Plan As Published'''.pdf]] ([[Wikimedia Foundation Plan 2013-14]]).
* [[wmf:2013-2014 Annual Plan Questions and Answers|2013-2014 Annual Plan '''Questions and Answers''']]

Further comments and questions about the plan:

==="This was very successful; it enabled us to reduce annoyance to readers by showing them fewer banners"===
[citation needed] 
[[Talk:Fundraising 2012/Report]]: "we're working on getting the impression numbers to compare from year to year. That data is not ready yet, but I'll let you know when it's up. Meganhernandez (talk) 10:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)".
--[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 05:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

:I think the above claim is not based on impression numbers, but rather the length of fundraiser. See:
<blockquote>We showed banners for nine days and then experimented with a new feature: showing banners only to users who hadn’t seen them before, and only for a limited number of views (usually one or two). By comparison, in 2011 the fundraiser showed banners to all readers in nearly every country in the world for 46 days.</blockquote>
:That clearly suggests we showed banners to fewer people, or least fewer repeat views. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 19:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

::Steven, I don't know what you meant to say here. I'm asking stats for the "fewer benners" claim, period. I'm not interested in guesswork. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

:::The fundraiser went from 46 days long to 9 days long. At the same time, the fundraising team worked to not show banners more than than once or twice to a person. Less time + fewer repeat views logically equals fewer banners served. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 20:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

::::Your logic is broken, read the link above. Thanks, [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: His logic is sound, even though it doesn't include absolute numbers of impressions. <s>In 2011, there were roughly 20% as many impressions.</s> I'm also interested to see comprehensive numbers, but the claim you cite is correct. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 
:::::: No, his premises are incorrect. The fundraising lasted 54 days, more than in the past; they were not all "full days" but it's impossible to infer anything on the impressions without direct stats. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 07:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::: I see what you mean. I look forward to the data. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  05:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

===Engineering staff hiring===
"Even so, we feel like we're in a pretty good position to hire technology staff right now": not in contradiction with "lower than planned hiring in Product and Engineering"? Something changed? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 05:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:While engineering recruiting is challenging in general, our internal recruiting team coalesced in 1st quarter this year including a dedicated tech recruiter, and we've seen improvements in sourcing and time to hire. There is still work to do, but yes, there has been a change. [[User:Gyoung|Gyoung]] ([[User talk:Gyoung|talk]]) 14:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
::Very nice to hear, thanks. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

==="strengthening the trademark portfolio"===
("$2.5 million one time projects, such as"; "one-time expenditures including $700K to upgrade the trademark portfolio", p. 11 [iii]) Details? Headlines? Are you going to recover some of the worst squatted domains? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 06:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
: I believe this is for registration of our most popular trademarks in secondary global markets not covered by our current registrations. A few variations on a few marks in many countries. I agree that extra clarification of what this entails would be welcome -- among other reasons, other parts of our movement, or fellow travellers, may need to consider register their own marks globally one day; so we should share what we have learned.
::The stewardship of the Wikimedia trademarks is one of the main mandates of the Wikimedia Foundation, given their value exceeding millions and millions of dollars. Over the last couple of years, we have registered our core trademarks to build up a solid trademark portfolio. Registration of the marks has allowed us to recover domain names from cybersquatters and pursue abuses of the marks to protect the reputation of the Wikimedia projects. Given our global community and consistent with other major web properties, we have an ongoing strategy to register our marks globally. This is a continual project, for which we have allocated funds in this year's budget. [[User:Geoffbrigham|Geoffbrigham]] ([[User talk:Geoffbrigham|talk]]) 21:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

===Copyediting===
*Time mismatches (would be useful to write somewhere in what time the text was written):
**"Fiscal year 2012-13 results won't be final until end of July 2013, but we are projecting to spend": we're already in July, so it's not a projection on something future, it's in the past. Intended: we esteem to have spended.
**: Better: "we are projecting to have spent". It is still a projection: it's not yet the "end of July" so we don't have the final reports.
**"We expect development on Flow will kick off before the end of the fiscal year" (p. 6).
**...
** Tons more mentioning end of fiscal year or March.
*"serving as liaison with various community [[Talk:Keywords#leaders.3F|leaders]] and groups (such as ArbCom and Ombudsmen Commission)" (p. 5): intended "English Wikipedia ArbCom".
*: I would guess the intention was "ArbComs".
*«As of March, there are more than 4.5 million items in Wikidata, and it is now used to provide interlanguage links and structured data to all Wikipedias»: broken coordination, "and it" -> "which".
*: The original usage is ok, but "which" is better.
*Hyphen instead of dash: "when appropriate - a program".
*"Wikimania UK governance review", typo (p. 15).
*: Good catch!
*"privacy and trademark portfolios" (p. 17): unclear what a privacy portfolio is.
*"focused interventions": wrong lowercase after period (should probably be fixed in previous bullet too, or preceding period changed to comma or semicolon).
*"ad-hoc" (p. 17): some  always correct this hyphen, worth checking.
*"increase in the [...] metric [...] by 2.4K per month": this is probably meant as annual increase rather than per month (which would be +2.4*12 k on annual basis); probably clearer as "monthly [...] metric [...] <s>per month</s>".
*"Wikimedia’s projects" (p. 23): we say [[Wikimedia projects]].
*: Good catch.

*"Community translators now have much-improved tools to work with, including the Translate extension on Meta." — should use the singular form of ''tool'' instead of plural. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
*: There are other improved tools as well. Unless you find only that extension useful...
*:: As a translator myself, I've never worked with a tool other than the Translate extension, so I guess that's a bit vague… [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 00:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
* Spending table on p. 15 is a pasted raster image instead of a text-based table. Which makes it impossible to copy the numbers anywhere, requiring people to type them instead. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
*: Good catch.
* Same problem for the "2013-14 Plan Finances and Staffing" table on page 11. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
*: Good catch.
* Sentence with curious series of hendiadys: «develop and facilitate a strong and effective learning and evaluation framework and strategy for grants and grantee partners with both quantitative and qualitative elements of understanding and measuring [...]» (p. 19).
*: Unusual usage example, but fine without correction. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  00:42, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
*: I'm (er) glad to have provided the unusual usage example, but I'll watch those 'ands' in the future. :-)--[[User:ASengupta (WMF)|ASengupta (WMF)]] ([[User talk:ASengupta (WMF)|talk]]) 01:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==== "Targets" heading level ====
[https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2013-2014_WMF_Plan_As_Published.pdf&page=20 On page 20]
"Targets" appears to be a subheading of "Program Development".
But it applies to the foundation as a whole.
Also possibly as a result of this in the TOC on page 2, there's no entry for "Targets". -- [[User:S Page (WMF)|S Page (WMF)]] ([[User talk:S Page (WMF)|talk]]) 01:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Revenue, Expenses, and Staffing ===
<blockquote>
"This plan adds no money to the reserve, as an additional $5 million in funding to the reserve was added in the current fiscal year. To achieve the revenue target, we will continue to innovate to increase the effectiveness of our messaging, and we will improve translations and localizations of the banners, enable mobile donations, and use video better."
</blockquote>
# Why not contributing more money to the reserve? What were the factors that contributed to that decision? Are there any plans for moving money that will not be spent in fiscal 2013-14 to the reserve, should that situation occur?
#:Given that more money than planned was added to the reserve in fiscal year 2012-13 and that our goal is to keep the fundraiser as short a practical, our budget revenue target is a good match to the funding needs for fiscal year 2013-14 and setting an achievable revenue target.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 20:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
#::Having witnessed the long discussion on creating an endowment and increasing reserve on Wikimedia-l, the fact that the Foundation has a reserve that covers just around 9-10 months of expenses and ''does not plan on increasing it'' is still a bit worrying to me. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
#::: We are discussing an endowment plan; this would be separate from the plan of record for the reserve. So for example we might run an endowment campaign to raise part of a $100M endowment, which would be held in a separate board-designated reserve fund -- that would be kept separate from our reserves, which should remain available to cover unexpected changes in our short-term fundraising & expenses. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 
#:::: I understand the difference between an endowment and a reserve, but I assumed that both come from the same assumption (to protect the Foundation in unforeseen situations) and are therefore related. I also understand that the decision was caused by the required amount being collected one year ahead of the plan, but still: the funds only allow the Foundation to operate for less 10 months (though I'm not sure what's the usual size of a US NGO's reserve). [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 01:53, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
# What does ''using video better'' mean in the context of donation banners? Surely not using videos ''inside'' the banners..? [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 14:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
#:On #2: yes. We've already experimented with this. Check out the banners from the [[Research:Donor engagement/Thank You campaign|Thank You campaign]] post-fundraiser for examples. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 19:55, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
#::I disable all banners by default, so I had no idea about this. That's absolutely terrifying information, especially as you seem to prefer YouTube over Commons, therefore giving our readers' private information to Google. I do see the text: "This 4-minute video is hosted by YouTube under its Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. If you prefer, watch on Wikimedia Commons." but please, please — if you're ever going to use videos in fundraising banners, make sure to load Commons videos and use proprietary services as backup options, not the other way round. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 20:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
# Why does the table at p. 22, [//wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=File%3A2013-2014_WMF_Plan_As_Published.pdf&page=22 Quarterly Breakdown of the Annual Plan], contain a 42 M$ revenue in Oct.-Dec. and basically nothing for the rest of the year (assuming [[#April-June 2013 revenue]] is still current), despite other parts of the plan voiching for an across-the-year fundraising? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 23:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
# The biggest doubt I have on the annual plan as whole is that I can't find any explanation on why WMF's own spending is expected to increase by about 30 % (+10 M$), while head-count staff increase is "only" 15 %. Even after detracting a few millions for one-time and/or non-wage expenses mentioned here and there, I'm unable to understand the gap. Some GAAP numbers for the spending breakdown could help understanding with less guesswork. My current best guess here is that we'll see a major outsourcing to other entities as in India, for the [[Talk:Global_South#New_countries_included|new Global South countries]] the WMF says to be going to work on; or that there's some major undetected operating expense somewhere (perhaps Tampa decommissioning?); I'm too tired to conduct a cross-checking of the various sections. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 23:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
#:Perhaps that is the result of basing salaries on the tech sector instead of the nonprofit sector? [[Special:Contributions/71.212.227.127|71.212.227.127]] 21:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

=== "reasonable compensation near the mid-point of the tech sector" ===

Page 26 of the 2013-4 Annual Plan says that the foundation has "optimized Wikimedia's value proposition [with] reasonable compensation near the mid-point of the tech sector". How much of a change to previous compensation scales pegged to the nonprofit sector does that represent in percentage terms? [[Special:Contributions/97.124.175.227|97.124.175.227]] 20:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
: I haven't done the number crunching on the %, but what we know is that we've been doing a good job of bringing in people closer to the midpoint of salary ranges as benchmarked by Radford against for-profit tech companies base salaries and then making sure people we brought in earlier aren't falling behind through appropriate adjustments to get to a baseline of internal equity so that we can go forward with ongoing merit adjustments for performance. [[User:Gyoung|Gyoung]] ([[User talk:Gyoung|talk]]) 15:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:: Good, especially the internal equity: does it apply internationally too, or does it apply only to SF/USA staff? (I've no idea if Radford has data on all countries.) Is this the reason for #4 in the section above? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

=== "# of experiments: Done"===

I don't understand the counting method for the [[E3]] experiments (which leads to «a total of 12 A/B tests and 4 cohort analyses across a total of six projects»), is it defined somewhere? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 20:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

:I counted it this way:
* Cohort studies: two as part of the [[R:OB|onboarding]] project, one for [[R:Donor engagement|donor engagement]], one for the [[Research:Community portal redesign|community portal redesign]].
* A/B tests: five for onboarding, three for [[R:ACUX|account creation]], two for [[R:PEF|post-edit feedback]], two for donor engagement.
:So a total of 16. An A/B test was something with a control group ran during a fixed time period. A cohort study was any time we did data analysis on a select group of editors who were impacted by an experiment like onboarding, but we didn't have a control group. We counted both these types of analysis toward the goal because they all are based on interventions by the team aimed at bringing in active editors. So for an example, a survey would not be counted, but an experiemnt with emails to donors inviting them to edit is, even if it wasn't a test with a control group. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 21:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Number of uploaders and unexplained correlations ===

«During March 2013, a total of 20,176 contributors made a least one upload to Commons. It is possible the target of 25,000 contributors by June 2013 will be reached» (p. 7): I don't see said growth on [[stats:wikispecial/EN/TablesWikipediaCOMMONS.htm#uploader_activity_levels]] and number don't match, explanations? There's a slight increase in March compared to February, but it's same number as January, less than October and basically negligible compared to the September increase provided by Wiki Loves Monuments. Additionally, it's not explained how the supposed growth correlates to "incremental usability improvements" rather than e.g. WLM itself (which could be partly verified by checking how many of the uploaders of each month have taken part into WLM), or other chapter programs. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
: The "It is possible" phrase could be dropped - it didn't happen, as you mention, and was within the fiscal year, so it's no longer a question of possible/not possible (as of the time of publication), it simply didn't happen. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 
:: Sure, the annual plan is a 4+ months old document in all its parts, see "Time mismatches" above; but the stats don't show the "20,176 contributors" figure either, it's not a matter of future. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Blogs ===

«We pushed out more information about the projects to more people than ever before, increasing our number of blog posts by roughly 10%»: non sequitur or misleading, there are no stats on blog visits AFAIK. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:13, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:Actually there are. While it's true that the blog's earlier stats function was deactivated, and that the blog has not yet been plugged into the general WMF Analytics infrastructure, we have had [[mw:EventLogging|EventLogging]]-based pageview stats for several months now (as may have been inferred from the presence of [https://blog.wikimedia.org/wp-content/themes/WP-Victor.git/jquery.eventlogging.js] in the blog's HTML). However, they are not accessible in a user-friendly way yet - eventually, the information should make its way into Limn somehow. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 00:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
::Very good, I heard something was moving but didn't understand it had been implemented. When does data start, and does it confirm/provide the claim above on increased readership? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Cost of Wikivoyage ===

Legal etc. etc. is said to have spent 914 k$ «Over budget due to unforeseen one-time legal costs related to Internet Brands and the start-up of Wikivoyage, as well as the Wikim[edia] UK governance review». Assuming the governance review didn't cost almost a million dollars, this would mean that the legal costs for Wikivoyage amounted to hundreds thousands dollars. Wikivoyage is also mentioned as a big cost for the Engineering department. Can we get an approximate figure of how much Wikivoyage cost the WMF? --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
: I would like to see that split out also. I'm not sure that "notable as a self-contained project" is the same as "a big cost", but an estimate would be handy for the next time we're thinking about whether and how to adopt or launch a new sister project. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 
:: Thanks, let's wait for figures.
:: As for engineering, I meant this passage: «supporting a complex migration of existing heterogeneously configured wikis onto Wikimedia servers» which to me translates as "big cost" (big effort), as confirmed by the numerous monthly engineering reports mentioning this and that staffer being absorbed by Wikivoyage migration. (Now by the way Wikidata team is also being absorbed by Wikivoyage stuff despite other existing Wikimedia projects being equally easy to support, but that's offtopic.) Not all prospective projects have so many extensions and hacks and project versions to adapt, but yes it's a matter of 1) knowing what we did and the consequences of our choices (someone thought it was going to be a zero-dollar initiative; I was pessimist but I surely never thought of one million figures), 2) learning and not being scared to make more choices in the future. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::The legal fees in the cases involving Internet Brands were just short of $350,000. This involved the costs for the defense of two Wikimedians, and the law suit against Internet Brands by WMF in San Francisco. That representation resulted in a favorable settlement for WMF. Details may be found [http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/02/15/a-victory-for-wikivoyage-and-free-knowledge/ here]. [[User:Geoffbrigham|Geoffbrigham]] ([[User talk:Geoffbrigham|talk]]) 21:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Just for clarification, the $914,000 variance from budget was a projection that at this point is overstated, as is was mitigated by cost savings. The current variance from budget for Legal & Community Advocacy, Communications, Human Resources, Finance and Administration is $296,661 as of May 31, 2013. The Internet Brands litigation was tracked as a special cost item which Geoff has shared as just under $350,000 and is part of the variance from budget that was mitigated by cost savings. We do not have cost for Engineering for the Wikivoyage integration, as it was not tracked as a special cost item in Engineering.--[[User:Gbyrd|Gbyrd]] ([[User talk:Gbyrd|talk]]) 23:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Gentlemen, we ''were'' expecting that the responses to our questions on this by private email for the ''Signpost'', about to be published, wouldn't be broadcast on-wiki beforehand. I'm ditching it from our coverage now, that's for sure. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 12:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thank you both. For the sake of completeness I hope engineering can make an estimate of the cost for them (in terms of FTE or whatever, not necessarily dollars) too, even though it has no relevance for the official financial statements and reports of course. Hopefully future (hypothetical) cases will be less legal-intensive and engineering costs will be more relevant. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::It would be interesting and potentially useful to know what the estimated/budgeted costs were, and where the actual costs differed. This could help with future decisions. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 06:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:Just a thank you to all involved here, I read this information with high interest. Not that I had a certain need or use for it, just being curious, especially I was very much in favour in setting up Wikivoyage as a Wikimedia project. Hence I think I should know about the consequences my (among many others) support / request in this matter had. Thank you for Nemo and SJ coming up with these questions and Geoff and Garfield for responding promptly with relevant data and links. --[[de:User:80686|Manuel Schneider]][[de:User Talk:80686|(bla)]] [[de:User:80686/Bewertung|(+/-)]] 10:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::Whew, that's hard to hear. An enormous thank you to the WMF on my part and on behalf of all Wikivoyagers, and hopefully on behalf of all those who seek to explore the world, and those who support free culture and the basic human right to freedom of speech. That goes too for all the Wikimedians who supported the decision to integrate Wikivoyage into this incredible movement. We obviously have a debt to repay, and I hope we'll live up to that promise both in terms of making this project the best it can be, and helping out with fundraising ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 18:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::: Ditto what Peter said. It's horribly disheartening that there was litigation over the formation of Wikivoyage, and even more discouraging that it was as costly as it was. That said, I'll be grateful for the remainder of my days for WMF's support - I admired the WMF before going through that ordeal, but having experienced firsthand their commitment to their core principles I'm a lifelong supporter. Wikivoyage has advanced tremendously since launching as a WMF project, and hopefully it will soon reach a point that more than justifies the initial investment. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 20:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Oy. Lets be really frank here. What's done is done, the money is spent. But let this PLEASE inform us about how not to allocate donated dollars in the future. As to the legal fees: this was all entirely voluntary on the part of the Foundation's board. WM did not have to defend itself against *anything*. It was never sued. It spent this money to defend a pair (?) of people who were not even wiki yet. Voluntarily. Then it spent more donated dollars to get a judge to say that it had a right to make a travel wiki, which NOBODY had ever even tried to dispute. This was a vast overreach and overreaction by the WMF that cost us real dollars. And as to the project itself, I'm sure its users are grateful. But what we have bought is a duplicate of an existing wiki that would have (and as far as I can tell, is) gone on chugging away with or without us. Am I missing anything? How many people are even using Wikivoyage? And, does it matter to anyone?[[User:WMtreasury|WMtreasury]] ([[User talk:WMtreasury|talk]]) 23:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:While we are being so frank, I note that this appears to be [[user:WMtreasury]]'s first and so far [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth&target=WMtreasury only] edit on any WMF project. Interesting choice of name too. Not exactly calculated to have a neutral effect. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 06:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
::This account should be blocked as not appropriate. [[User:Yann|Yann]] ([[User talk:Yann|talk]]) 14:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I truly can't even believe iBobi and his thugs are still at it. Aren't we past this yet? And about the cost, that is really surprising and unfortunate, but hopefully the Wikivoyage project will be able to repay it in success. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 10:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Other budget shifts during the year ===

On [[mw:Wikimedia Language engineering]], same page says that it's intentionally 35 % or 372 k$ «Below budget due to headcount being shifted to a different Engineering sub-department». Is a rationale available for this decision, and is there a process for communicating (intentional) shifts from the annual plan during the year? I don't remember hearing about such a decision and the annual plan is rather useless to the world if it can be intentionally disregarded without notice. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Other 2012-13 achievements ===
<blockquote>
We identified and developed closer relationships with dozens of active, highly-credible non-English Wikimedians around the world: people who have been involved with the projects for a long time, who have not been traditionally recognized, but who regularly contribute large amounts of quality content.</blockquote>
This either needs clarification or I need to be pointed in the right direction, because I have absolutely no idea what this means. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:I think it's the storytellers' work (to find stories useful for usage in fundraising etc.). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 22:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::No, actually, it's my team. LCA has done a great deal of work in figuring out who some of the "star" content providers are on certain wikis. We're just beginning, but we've had great results so far. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 01:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Wiki Loves Monuments & Flickr ===
<blockquote>We supported the Wiki Loves Monuments launch[''','''] with improvements to Upload Wizard[''';'''] and
integrated Flickr import functionality into Upload Wizard.</blockquote>
The Flickr import functionality was not part of support for Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 launch. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 21:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:The quoted sentence does not claim that it was. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 22:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::How does it not claim that? "''We supported Wiki Loves Monuments with (...) and integrated Flick import (...)''" is clear enough, I would say. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 22:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:::More precise punctuation as above may convey the intended meaning. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 22:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: The second comma helps here, not the first. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  00:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: It does indeed, makes me realize ''integrated'' is used a verb in that sentence, not as an adjective. Thanks, Nemo and Sj. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 01:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Arabic Wikipedia ===
«In the Arabic Wikipedia alone, during the most active months of the terms, Education Program students now make up around 10% of the active and very active editors on the project» (p. 23): number is unclear and doesn't match previous stats provided (which only mentioned very active editors), see [[Talk:Metrics and activities meetings/Quarterly reviews/Wikipedia Education Program/May 2013]]. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 23:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
:Hi Nemo, sorry I missed your earlier question -- replied on the talk page where you first asked it. -- [[User:Ldavis (WMF)|LiAnna Davis (WMF)]] ([[User_talk:Ldavis (WMF)|talk]]) 00:15, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you very much, I read briefly a couple days ago (I now see the stats also in [[:File:WMF_Monthly_Metrics_Meeting_July_11,_2013.webm|monthly meeting]]) and will get back to it soon. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

=== "VP of Product" spending? ===
The spending table on p.15 shows WMF spending 90% more on its "VP of Product" than on its "VP of Engineering". Since WMF only has one "VP of Engineering and Product Development", the spending category names are misleading. If these are categories for expenses outside the listed subcategories of Product and Engineering then I think they should be renamed and moved to the bottom of each set. -- [[User:S Page (WMF)|S Page (WMF)]] ([[User talk:S Page (WMF)|talk]]) 01:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:Yeah, I was confused by this, as it makes it seem like individuals are pulling down $270k and $550k. It would be nice to see the FTEs. I wrote up a comment on salaries, but I'll refrain from commenting right now (though [http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/10/17/six-figure-developers-google-and-facebook-nearly-tie-by-paying-tgheir-engineers-around-125000-a-year/ I'll note that Google and Facebook pay average $125k]). [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|ImperfectlyInformed]] ([[User talk:ImperfectlyInformed|talk]]) 02:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::Nothing on the tables suggests that the figures in question are just about salaries, they may include e.g. the "personal budget" managers can spend rather freely for emergencies or whatever (probably not codified anywhere – the actual internal budget of WMF is not public AFAIK –, but cf. [[wmf:Delegation_of_authority_policy#Sub_Delegation_of_Authority]]). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

=== non-en-WP communities ===
Every time you use this term, Brion kills a server kitty. Please, think of the server kitties. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 23:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:You meant that Brion kills a non-en-WP server kitty. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 23:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
::Hm, that would mean that only [https://noc.wikimedia.org/dbtree/ a dozen s1 servers' kitties] are exempt? :( --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 08:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::: +1.000 [[image:computer-kitten-sm.png|50px]] [[image:computer-kitten-sm.png|50px]] [[image:computer-kitten-sm.png|50px]] –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  06:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

=== 2012 Editor Survey ===
The Annual Plan says "The 2012 Editor Survey found the community believes the WMF is doing a good job; when asked about seven specific activity areas of the Foundation, its general performance and the direction in which it is going, the overwhelming majority of opinions given by our users were positive. Reactions to the release of prototype versions of Visual Editor have been positive, suggesting that many community members appreciate such editor retention initiatives."

However over at [[Research_talk:Wikipedia_Editor_Survey_2012#How_long]], we're still waiting for results to be published? [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 11:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Mangled? ===

This is hard to understand: "Wikipedia Zero: Done. We have signed up five major mobile carriers (Orange, Telenor, Saudi Telecom, Vimpelcom, and Axiata) for our Wikipedia Zero program, giving free access to Wikipedia to 410 million mobile subscribers in 37 Global South countries. The program has launched in 13 of those countries, with free access available to 125 million subscribers."

Should "a potential" be inserted before 410? Otherwise it seems to say the same thing twice with different numbers. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 14:35, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
: Good catch. Ideally we would also estimate how many subscribers have actually taken advantage of WP Zero, since that is a key factor in its impact. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  20:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Memo for next year: this word "onboarding" seems to be HR-speak. There are simple alternatives (see thesaurus) that will avoid quizzical expressions by native-speakers, and recourse to dictionaries by translators. To make matters worse, it's used in two quite different contexts in the document. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 14:37, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
: I am a fan of 'induction' myself. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 

=== Development centers in other places outside US ===
If it is difficult to attract developers to the WMF headquarters in SF at a reasonable price, why not to open other locations in cheaper areas with tech staff available at lower costs? I'm thinking of countries like Estonia, Poland, India, etc. which have an educated work force and lower standards of living. Or if it has to be in highly developed areas, it could also be somewhere in the Central Europe. For Wikidata is already working that way, could that concept be scaled? --[[User:Micru|Micru]] ([[User talk:Micru|talk]]) 19:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

== What would raising a perpetuity endowment with sustained traditional fundraising look like? ==

[Moved to [[Talk:Endowment#What would raising a perpetuity endowment with sustained traditional fundraising look like?]]] [[Special:Contributions/71.212.227.127|71.212.227.127]] 21:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

== Graphs are cc-by-sa? ==

Is it permitted to copy them onto en.WP and use in WP space, please? There's no copyright info on the description pages. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 15:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions

2013-07-18T07:53:42Z

JamesA: /* {{int:Talk}} */

{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/banner}}

{{LangSwitch
|en = This page is for organizing and discussing initial submissions for the [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013|2013 Wikivoyage logo selection]]. Please see that page for general information, including rules of participation.

All contributors are invited to submit potential logos for review, in accordance with [[Logo selection procedure|the rules set out there]] and at [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013]]. Please note that entering a submission constitutes your acceptance of those rules. Logo submissions should be listed and discussed here.

If you submit multiple different proposals, please indicate clearly which should be taken before the submission period ends. Otherwise ''all'' will be added to the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery|voting-gallery]]; but remember that voters have only 3 votes in total and adding lots of similar proposals may diminish the chances (this depends on how the voters behave, of course). Further information [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions#Multiple similar submissions (variants)|available at the talk page]].
}}

==Option 1 - ''Flowing Arrow''==
''I'm not quite sure how to format this, so please feel free to move it around a bit.''

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Proposed logo
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea 2.png|Proposed combination mark
</gallery>

Author: [[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]

This suggested logo has popped up previously, but here it is again; an abstract arrow. You can read a full (slightly tongue-in-cheek) explanation of my reasoning and see some implementations, other language versions and the SVG version that [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] very kindly made, [[:voy:User:Nicholasjf21/New_Logo_Concept|'''here''']]. Comments welcome! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
It's a really nice logo and I really like the baby blue colour, but in order to make it more in line with other Wikimedia projects, I would very much prefer for it to use the same colours as other recent logos, e.g. the Wikimedia logo itself.
I also agree with the comments previously voiced that making it somewhat more like both a compass needle and the Eiffel Tower at the same time would make it even more powerful. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments! :) I confess, I deliberately didn't use the WMF colours as none of the other 'consumer' (that's not the right word) wikis use the WMF colour scheme; if anything, blue is the more popular colour, but I used a brighter shade to differentiate ourselves; I know that some members of the community were not particularly keen on sharing colours with the 'meta' projects.
::I would personally be a little wary of making it look ''more'' like the Eiffel Tower and would prefer to keep the shape a little ambiguous in that respect: we don't want to be confused for the Parisian tourist board! I think it's nice that different people might see different things in the shape, but all of them are hopefully travel related. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. PrinceGloria, I really have no idea what you're thinking with your suggestions. Look at the logos for Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wiktionary, and Wikiversity. The only thing they have in common is that none of them use the colors of the Wikimedia logo! So why should Wikivoyage? I'm also not sure what's 'powerful' about looking like the Eiffel Tower; can you elaborate? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 23:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

::::I basically like this logo: color, form and thought. It works okay at a small size, but even in the gallery above I think that the version without the wordmark is too simple. I'm not sure what I'd add, but I think it needs ''something'' so that it's not a flat circle in bigger versions. Perhaps add continents to the globe (almost invisible at small sizes) or gradients. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Too ''simple''?? I'm guessing you don't have formal training in graphic design. One of ''the most basic'' precepts of design (graphic or otherwise) is ''simplicity''. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::Thanks for your thoughts //Shell! As LtPowers has said, I've aimed to keep this logo as simple as possible in order to make it more powerful: a strong, confident symbol for the project. Some of the most iconic logos in the world are composed of very simple elements. Hopefully this simplicity means that it works well at many different sizes, which is important for a project like this. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::I appreciate the goal to have a simple logo. I still feel that it needs something at the size it will be viewed in most (135px wide with wordmark) and I think this logo is simpler than all other Wikimedia projects'. The Github mark ([https://github.com/logos the silhouette]) is one that I like very much - it's simple, yet contains details that make it interesting when large. Nick, what would you consider an iconic logo? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 21:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Thanks for responding. I'd like to think it's about as simple as the Wikiquote and Wikidata emblems; not unusually so. The GitHub mark, whilst nice, doesn't seem that much more 'exciting' than the logo above and a cat-octopus hybrid might look a tad incongruous here. Personally, I like 'clean' design and that's what I've aimed for here. The use of a world map would, I fear, make the logo seem a little 'fussy', whilst gradients are rather losing their vogue at present - a flat icon can be timeless. Some examples of simple logos that I would deem iconic are: the [http://api.ning.com/files/Fd0Hyt-VB-mLJyE6xLYZ**QLu2VVQfvnaIEzyxSO11rwdkqRti2q4ra1ES1p8jr1BpSEJSaRTmqdCOv-6CXzMGxmhyl-gUex/applelogo.gif Apple logo], the [http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/pepsi-new-logo.jpg Pepsi logo], the [http://www.logodesignlove.com/images/evolution/mercedes-benz-symbol.jpg Mercedes-Benz logo], the [http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/zine2/misc/Bell_logo.png Bell System logo], the [http://s3.freefoto.com/images/24/56/24_56_7_web.jpg British Rail logo] and the [http://www.creativereview.co.uk/images/uploads/2011/01/nikelogo_1.gif Nike tick]. I believe that simplicity makes a mark memorable and stronger. In reality, it's likely that the image in the top left corner is the largest resolution at which this logo is going to be seen. As such, it is important that it can be reproduced faithfully at a range of much smaller sizes too - if small details were introduced, there's a chance that they could be compressed and unpleasant or lost entirely. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::I'll quote myself just once more as a general statement of support for this submission: it suggests a V for Voyage, flight, a compass, and even a bit of ocean waves, while being very simple and sleek. Nick also explained that part of his inspiration was the three step evolution of our project and community, first developing at Wikitravel, then migrating (i.e., fleeing) to Wikivoyage, and then happily under the umbrella of the WMF. Thinking of the icon this way, the "arrow" acts not just as a compass needle, but also a pointer forward, which could be read as an allegory for our project's forward movement, or movement in general (and travel is, of course, movement). To respond to PrinceGloria and //Shell above, I think that simplicity and distinctiveness should actually be primary goals in creating a new logo, as these qualities imbue the icon with more power and "catchiness."

::::::::::I certainly hope to have the opportunity to look at more submissions, which hopefully are on the way, but I can say I'd be happy with this one, as long as there are no legal obstacles this time. Great start to the submissions! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::I think that this is an attractive logo, I just feel that if I saw it without the Wikivoyage label at the bottom, I wouldn't know it was for Wikivoyage. [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 01:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: '''(edit conflict)''' Thanks for your comments! Personally, I don't think a logo should be used to try and convey exactly what a project's about; after a while, any logo would become synonymous with WV simply by association. Other WMF logos seem to have been made with this in mind as well: either that or Wikipedia's developing spherical jigsaw puzzles and Wikisource is building an iceberg!
:::::::::::: A logo should, to my mind, convey the abstract spirit of a project , rather than explicitly say what an organisation stands for. If you look at the selection of logos I posted for //Shell above, none of them states what the company in question does, but gives a pictorial representation which might be used to identify them. That's what I've tried to create for Wikivoyage here. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: I would reuse the font of the current logo. This would be a link with the current one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::::: In the context of travelling, the logo reminds me more of a paper plane than an arrow. And a paper plane looks strange in contrast to the massive pollution real aircrafts cause. --[[User:Nicor|Nicor]] ([[User talk:Nicor|talk]]) 09:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::@Nick: Wikiquote & Wikidata have simpler shapes, but the colors make them more interesting to me. My point about the Github silhouette was that the details in the tail make it interesting at high resolutions while lo-res versions are still clear. Those logos are rarely seen as simplified as the versions you linked: Apple's is often on their products, where the logo has some gloss/texture; Pepsi's on a can, also giving gloss; Mercedes-Benz's is chromium-plated and 3D; Nike's on shoes/clothes which give texture/interesting background (don't know about Bell/British Rail). Contrast that with the Wikivoyage logo, which will be viewed on a gray background with no more gloss/texture than it has from the start. I guess Microsoft's new icons are a better comparison, but even those are usually in a smaller format. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 12:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::I created a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|version showing my idea]]. To me the continents make it interesting at hi-res, while not taking anything away from the lo-res situations. (I'm not sure whether I can submit this version for Wikivoyage since it uses continents from [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|here]]) [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 14:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Shell, [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|your version]] with continent outlines in the blue disk is very interesting. I'd like to see what that looks like with the continents more prominently displayed, maybe like, or not like, a blue marble. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 19:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::Rogerhc, I don't understand what you mean by "blue marble". Would you like a version with a darker outline? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 19:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks for posting that //Shell! I'm still not completely sure of it myself: I still like plain and simple, but I do appreciate your input and it is interesting to see! :) Personally, I like bold, simple shapes and 'unfussy' design, even though it's not necessarily everyone's cup of tea. I'd like the logo to look the same at all resolutions if possible, but your opinion is just as valid as mine! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 12:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Under the terms of this process Shell can submit a derivative with those changes as an alternative proposal. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Absolutely! Shell's more than welcome to submit a derivative; the above is just my personal opinion. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 14:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Quite so, and for what it's worth I prefer the plainer version. If I can make a suggestion, the curves of the gaps in the arrow could be harmonized a little. This one is on my short list at present. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Thanks! I am, unfortunately, away from my computer for the next couple of weeks (doing this on my phone), but once I get back, I'll try and smooth out some of the logo's rougher edges. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Peter, Am I though? My version is a combination of [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Nick's idea]] and [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|a map]]. The map wasn't submitted here, so I don't believe I can submit my version without creating my own map or replacing it with one in the public domain. I'm not skilled enough to create my own, so either somebody else can create one or we'll have to find a better one. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::The shape of the earth is not copyrighted, just find a PD source and use that. You will want an svg anyway. cheers, · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Shell I like your improvement on Nick's idea. Give yourself a try and submit it. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I find Shell's version unnecessairly complicated. The power of Nick's version is its simplicity, relative uniqueness (it SUGGESTS a few things, but isn't one, so it has potential to become a universally recognized logo) and scalability (it works just as well as a thumb icon as it does as fullsize logo). [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::I made one more version, this time with a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - split color.svg|split color]]. I don't intend to submit either variant now, since that would just confuse voters, but some people like the idea, I'll do something for the final round if this submission makes it that far. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 20:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't like it. The arrow is broken for my POV. Though, I think, it is possible to see something like sail in this arrow and to rework/redraw logo in this direction. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a little reminiscent to the [http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/OOo_Website_v2_copy.png OpenOffice.org ball logo], but probably not too much. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 2 - ''Info''==
<gallery>
WV logo v28.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

The "information desk" icon is used widely. The extra markers around the circle look like old maps. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
: Have you tried to reuse the current color palette? This maybe could fit better with some color choices that has been done in the past for maps & articles. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Digr]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think Option 11 - Compass Rose with Globe is better. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 3 - ''Plane 2''==
<gallery>
Plane2.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

It looks like both an open book and an airplane. It invites to open, read and write. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:I feel like you don't need to confine yourself to the Wikimedia shades. Was that your natural choice for both logos, or was it to reinforce brand identity? [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 23:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:: I remember this logo, and I really like the excellet idea that is behind it. Maybe (although I don't know how) I would graphically enforce these two concept, because without the explanation they don't arrive immediately. Once you know them, are clear, and are clear as well after several observation, but in my opinion a logo should be clear since the first glance. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::: To me it looks like neither an open book nor an aircraft, even when I am told it should. I can see the attempted resemblance, but for me it just does not gel. That which makes it look somewhat like an aircraft, detracts from the book-like aspects and vice versa. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I can see the book but no aircraft. Wikivoyage is not Wikibooks, I dont want confusion. --[[User:Pyfisch|Pyfisch]] ([[User talk:Pyfisch|talk]]) 10:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::Great idea. It was my first choice during the first round already and it will be my first choice. Really like it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 13:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Isatis78]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:[[User:Isatis78]] has now confirmed agreement to the logo submission rules [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMdennis_%28WMF%29&diff=100028523&oldid=92444490 here]. Restoring this one to discussion. I've retitled this section according to the creator's original title. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't see plane, I see only book. Good idea, bad realization. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 4 - ''Next Generation Compass ''==
<gallery>
WikivoyageNewLogo1.png
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

A simple compass logo. Known as Rbrown on Wikivoyage. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*Does not show up very well · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*:I cropped the image - now it's better visible. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
*::Thank you Shell. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
* Too simple. Unoriginal. Сolour match "salad green on white background" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a good idea but not very original, unfortunately. A lot of [[w:Garmin|GPS]] and navigation devices and software use compass icons. Even [[w:Safari (web browser)|web browsers]]. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 5 - ''The Old Logo''==

<gallery>
WikiVoyage-logo.svg
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

The logo is well known. And the WMF is already the owner. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 13:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by Hansm and Unger , but submitted by RolandUnger [[Special:Contributions/81.178.165.241|81.178.165.241]] 12:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: I think submission of the old logo is not a problem. It is created by Hansm and Unger, but the ownership is transferred to the wikivoyage community and if one of them wants it back that should not be made a big problem. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that might be stretching the point a bit, only one person can make an edit, or do you dispute that Unger and RolandUnger are the same person?· · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 12:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: Unger and RolandUnger are the same person. I had to change my name because of SUL. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 18:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The weak point of this logo and other logo's based on the latin script that wikivoyage is project that is not a latin only project. The Greek and the Hebrew language version would look very funny with this logo. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

[[:en:Virgin_America|Virgin Airlines]]? [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 6 - ''Plane(t)''==
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange2.png|'''6a.''' Two planets
Wv logo proposal two worlds 1.png|'''6b.''' One planet
Wv logo proposal two worlds blue.png|'''6c.''' One planet blue
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange.png|'''6d.''' Two planets alt
</gallery>
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal plane and planet.png|'''6e.''' Plane and planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane and planet.png|'''6f.''' Looping plane and planet
Wv logo proposal plane in front of planet.png|'''6g.''' Plane in front of planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane.png|'''6h.''' Looping plane
Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|'''6i.''' Flying plane
</gallery>
[[File:Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|250px|thumbnail|'''6i.''' Flying plane]]

This is my submission for the Wikivoyage logo selection process. The logo emphasizes that Wikivoyage is a free, world-wide travel guide. The airplane represents travel, and considering we're a world-wide travel guide, it is flying around the Earth. The "free" bit is only slightly hinted at, as the airplane is flying in a half-moon-shaped reversed "c", a nod to our copyleft license.

The logo shows not one, but two planets, because we are a project that's a coming together of two worlds (two communities), now operating together in union. That's why the airplane is flying around both planets as if they are one.

I chose orange because it's a unique color not used by any other WMF project. But we can make dozens of variations with many different colors. I'm open for your comments and suggestions. [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 16:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
Seems like the Death Star with a bigger hole. ~~[[User:ebe123|EBE123]]~~ [[User talk:Ebe123|talk]][[Special:Contributions/Ebe123|Contribs]] 21:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 
Very nice but it remind me the expedia logo. [[User:Inkey|Inkey]] ([[User talk:Inkey|talk]]) 11:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:I think it's a bit similar to Expedia's previous logo, but not their current. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:: Generally speaking I like the logo, but it doesn't makes me think to a WMF site (I don't recall at all the expedia's one, so I'm not referring to it). Try to use all the RGB colors just to see what comes out. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 21:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm a fan of this, but would like to see some other versions. The planets to me look more like an eyeball, which probably isn't what you're going for. I don't think the swooshed plane, which I like a lot, is too similar to the old Expedia logo (the whole look is very different). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::The two planets were no success, so I uploaded a couple of different versions of the logo. I thought it might be an idea to make the plane loop, as it makes the logo a bit more playful and shows how fun travel is (just like how making loops is fun). [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 03:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Upturned planes on 6f and 6h lead to [[:en:Fear of flying|aerophobia]]. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 15:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I don't like most of the alternative versions you made, but 6i is excellent, I like a lot! PS The above Alex comment cracks me up! :-D --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

These are by far my favorite logos here (enough to make me make my first edit on Meta). Simple but interesting, and (my pet peeve) actually has good typography. 6d, 6g, and 6i are my favorites.—[[User:Kelvinsong|Kelvinsong]] ([[User talk:Kelvinsong|talk]]) 18:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

:These are very intriguing. I really like 6i out of all the options, but would also like to see a version of 6e flipped vertically (so the plane flies forward to the right) and changed to blue. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 7 - ''WV logo''==

<gallery>
WV logo 1.svg
WV logo 2.svg|Modified to show components more clearly
WV Logo 2 - 50% grey.png|Grey scale rendering
WV Logo 2 - B and W.png|Line art rendering
</gallery>
20 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|20px]], 16 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|16px]], 10 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|10px]]

Colour could be anything that provides sufficient contrast. I like blue or green, which are particularly suitable for the negative version (white on colour or transparent on colour). · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Text is optional and can be chosen by the language version. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 10:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reminds me of the [[:en:Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit|Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber]] too much. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 20:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::It actually does look a little like that, but I don't think many people would think of that when looking at this logo. It's a bit like the [[w:Rorschach test]]. ;) If other people agree with that, though, we might want to use a different logo. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 01:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::This invites a cease and desist from [http://www.vvv.nl/pagina/home/default.aspx the VVV]. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 10:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Their logo is three separate V's in a triangle in a square, this is a combined W and V in a circle. colours are different and can be changed, negative version differs even more. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::It is also different from the Mitsubishi logo, the Volkswagen logo, the Triangle health and fitness logo, Wyoming valley anthracite logo, West Virginia University logo, VVV Venlo logo and Anton May logo. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 11:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Modified logo it's definitely better that the original one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I thought the simplicity of the original would be better, but now I have got used to the change I think you are right. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Our current logo is far more different from the WTC logo than this one from VVV, but it still invited a cease and desist. And the new version bears even more similarity to the VVV, which was born basically of the same idea. I like it, but I would be mega-cautious. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Legal department will make that decision I guess. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't like it. Very similar with WC room signs or with [[:en:Volkswagen|Volkswagen]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:Which WC room signs would that be? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:: I didn't say, that it was WC room sign. It has similar design for me, I see in proposed logo [http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/sendmeamirror/Signs%20and%20Symbols/wccircle.jpg smth like this] with two changes - C on right transformed to V on bottom, or woman triangle ([http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/608653/104911997/stock-photo-toilet-sign-with-geometry-figure-set-104911997.jpg like here]) without head. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
While I like this, particularly some ideas that come to mind using the very simple and stylized version in the first thumb, I share some worries about its similarity to other logos. In particular, the versions with the components separated a bit remind ''a lot'' of the Volkswagen logo. The other issue is that the WV initials don't apply to many language versions both currently and going forward. But if the logo is sufficiently abstracted, that is less of an issue. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:My imediate first thought when seeing this one was [http://www.wvusports.com/ the sports teams of the University of West Virginia]. I'm not versed enough in the law to know if it is close enough to matter, though. (Aside, the problems mentioned elsewhere about this one not being logical for non-latin script projects holds here.) [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 03:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 8 - ''Get Escape''==

<gallery>
WV Get Escape.svg | 1 - The original version
WV Get Escape 2.svg | 2 - Alternative version with square shape
WV Get Escape 3.svg | 3 - Alternative version with spherical shape
WV Get Escape 4.svg | 4 - Alternative version with 2 arrows wrapping a sphere
WV Get Escape 5.svg | 5 - Alternative version (as #4, but with 4 crossed arrows)
</gallery>

'''16px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|16px]]
'''20px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|20px]]
'''24px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|24px]]

I imagine a logo that could resemble a bird while spreading its wings and the letters "W" and "V" (WikiVoyage's initials) at the same time. Moreover, my logo wants to express the escape from the ordinary when someone takes a journey and the possibility to choose different paths before starting a trip. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 22:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like it! Uses the WMF color, it has the circle that recall the world and other WM logos, furthermore there's a W that recall Wikivoyage. Try to make some other alternatives on these theme, don't stop on the first idea. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Hey, did you maybe read on my mind? I just thought about a squared version this night (dropping out the circle), ''et voila''... --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Between the two I'd like more the first one. In the second one there's "too many angles", with the round shape is more balanced (IMO). --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Nice the third version, but I would let let arrows goes out from the circle to give more the idea of freedom. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any geo-themed object in this logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:As with some other submissions, I think it would be nice to get away from the WV initials, since they do not apply to many language versions--especially those with non-Latin writing systems. That said, this could be the starting point for a more abstracted logo focusing on the elements of motion out of one's individual sphere and into the rest of the globe. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::@Andyrom: OK, I'll try to adjust it as soon as possible. @Alex Spade: and so? What's the point? I don't think that some other submissions are strictly connected to a geographic theme. @Peter: it's true, you can see a WV at first sight on my logo, but I took into account non-Latin languages and I render it in order to be seen also as a route that from a starting point could take different directions around the world. Anyway, I thank you and Alex for the critics, maybe I'll create another version that might fit your needs. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 21:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Here we go! I revised the third version and added a new one featuring 2 arrows that look like the Tropics (in addition, it recalls in a different key WikiVoyage's current logo). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Update: I build another one from #4, using 4 crossed arrows that form a [[:en:Union Jack|Union Jack]]-like pattern. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 12:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, some other submissions are not connected to a geographic theme too. But they have another, more important weaknesses (important for my POV). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: #5 looks like a Xmas ball :-D ... but I think you can work on #4 Try to put a "world" on that sphere, and maybe try also to work on those arrows giving them a more "mellifluous" style. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Do you mean an abstract representation of Earth? I don't know, it would be too... ''messy''! XD I just want to use simple geometric shapes in order to have a clean work (above all on small icons). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 20:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Not abstract, just the map. Regarding the small icon, if you are not too convinced, it could be slightly different form the big one, I meant, with just the blue sphere. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 20:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Map as background? Hmmm... It can be interesting solution. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 21:57, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 9 - ''sailboat'' ==
<gallery>
File:Travel boat rgb logo.svg
File:Travel_boat_blue_logo.svg
File:Community boat logo.svg
</gallery>
Created by {{user|Isarra}} in R1 of the original contest. I like it, so I think it deserves another shot. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reopened. Isarra has consented to the submission rules, [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Isarra&oldid=5653490 here]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 00:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:This is a nice design, and the colors work well together. It fits the theme of Wikivoyage of being free, etc., and it's a bonus that it depicts and actual voyage. Could I possibly see it with the word Wikivoyage under it? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::While pretty, and suggesting travel quite well, it is a bit cluttered and may not work as an icon or in greyscale.
::How does it look to the colourblind? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::I agree with Peter S. that this looks pretty, but a little cluttered. Maybe we could try it without the circles, just the boat? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::::This is far and beyond my favorite. [[User:The ed17|Ed]] [[User talk:The ed17|[talk]]] [[:en:User:The ed17|[en]]] 00:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 10 - ''signpost'' ==
{{collapse top|While nice, this logo is improperly submitted. Rule one states: ''Eligibility. You can submit logos for consideration only if (i) you are the original creator, or (ii) they are attributed modifications of other logos submitted through this process. By submitting, you implicitly acknowledge that you have read and agree to these rules.'' The original creator is encouraged to resubmit. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 06:14, 13 July 2013 (UTC)}}
<gallery>
File:GDJ-logotyp-propozycja-Reytana.svg
</gallery>
This one is nice too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 11 - ''Compass Rose with Globe''==
<gallery>
File:WV logo v27.png|Version 0.2a [[File:WV logo v27.png|20px]]
File:WV logo v25 v2.png|Version 0.4a [[File:WV logo v25 v2.png|20px]]
</gallery>

I liked this one too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


I liked it (second one). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I agree with Alex: the second one is better. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I like version 0.4a.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

While I like this a lot when considered independently, I think it's (much) too similar to the Meta logo. While that doesn't present trademark issues, since the WMF would own both, it still fails to give our project a unique look. (Actually, given Wikivoyage's greater visibility than Meta, it might be better to say that we'd be robbing Meta of ''its'' unique look!) At a minimum, I think the globe element would need to be completely rethought. The compass element in 0.4a is really nice, though. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like Version 0.4a even if it is similar to the Meta log: Meta's looks concentrating and stable, this one moving outward dynamically.--[[User:Miya|miya]] ([[User talk:Miya|talk]]) 05:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Second one really elegant. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 07:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have said, I liked it (0.4a), but image must be cleared (see full size on image description page). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 12 - ''Arrows''==
<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw.svg|Main logo
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (GS).svg|Same logo - greyscale version (ie for greyscale printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (BW).svg|Same logo - black version (ie for Fax / monochrome printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|only the arrows for special purposes (ie favicon)
</gallery>
:<s>[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Icon).svg|24x24px]] - Favicon proposal </s>
:[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x16px]] - [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x24px]] [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x32px]] - better favicon proposal in 16, 24 and 32px

My proposal for the new logo. The arrows represent the directions of travel, I took the colours from Wikimedia Design guidelines. Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 23:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Very nice. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 01:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. Very nice. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 04:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Very striking. The text can be translated while the logo remains recognizable for all languages. Works for me. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::I agree. Beautiful and versatile. Nice work. --[[User:Nanae|Nanae]] ([[User talk:Nanae|talk]]) 09:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Great. Simplicity is the best. Re the favicon: suggesting to remove either preferrably both letters (ie. as the last example is - some languages even don't use latin alphabet and ie. chinese/japanese characters probably wouldn't be legible, or consider azbuka, where the first letter is similar to latin B) or at least the "V" (mind translations, where "voyage" could be translated to the word beginning with the different letter). Favicons should be ''icons'' (preferably of the logotype) only. In any case, again, very nice work! Technical: What is the font and is it free? — [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 12:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Beautiful! I like a lot this one! In particular the first version (i.e. main logo)! It has all the feature that I was looking for (i.e. WMF logo & recall to the current one), furthermore, for future use it can be streched to the "only arrows version". Currently it's my favourite! Regarding the letters I don't consider it a problem, because we can have exactly the same approach of the wikipedia logo: an image with a text translated in each language. (e.g. [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ko/b/bc/Wiki.png ko], [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Wikipedia-logo-v2-it.png it], [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg/135px-Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg.png fa])--[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::It would work well with a wide variety of fonts, so that would be a separate issue. Each language could make their own decision on what best suits their name. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Thx for your feedback!
* I was not thinking about different character systems at the moment of creating the favicon, I think just the arrows will work better.
* If anyone here could translate wikivoyage to a language with different character systems (hebrew, any asian, kyrilic,...) I'd love to present them as demo.
* To clarify: the first three logo versions are the same logo for different purposes.
* The font I used was Gill Sans bold. The creator Eric Gill died in 1940, so it should be free in most countries. If there is any problem: I think most of the bold sanserif typeface would work as well.
Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 20:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (de).svg|most latin languages
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (el).svg|greek
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (es).svg|spanish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (he).svg|hebrew
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (pl).svg|polish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (ru).svg|russian
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (uk).svg|ukrain
</gallery>
Slightly new version using [[en:DejaVu fonts|DejaVu sans]], an open source font, the other languages for demo. Which version do you like more? Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 05:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

:There is one simple rule in typeface design and it is that Gill Sans always wins. Seriously though - drop the bold, it doesn't look good. Either Sans is fine to me, but not with bold. A very good design, I am only slightly worried it is not very travel-themed and could just as well be used by many other projects. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like concept "Three arrows". Four arrows are classic for geo-projects. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I confirm my appreciation for this logo, so I suggest you to invest part of your time in searching over the web if there's any similar registered logos that may arise legal issues. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:And I like the ''three'' arrows because it is ''different'' from the conventional four directions arrows and allows use of the three primary colours. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a very attractive, strong submission. The idea of an unconventional compass (which maybe I'm projecting onto the submission), is really cool. Working the name into the center of the logo is also a cool step. How would this work with a caption, if we choose to use one (we don't have to). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:I wasn't expecting to like anything better than Nick's arrow, but I like this submission best of all the ones that have been submitted so far. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 13 - ''W-route''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute.png
</gallery>

My logo shows a dynamic route (in shape of a curved "W") on a globe. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). The structure is the same as in the Wikipedia- or the Wikimedia logo: A round sign at the top und the text at the bottom. —''The preceding [[w:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]] ([[User talk:Giweddah|{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}]] • [[Special:Contributions/Geweddah|{{int:Contribslink}}]]) .
:I suggest a more obvious "W" for the "route". · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]:
::first it is a route – and with a little fantasy it becomes a "W". I like logos with a slight "secret": for example the (bavarian) air-screw in the BMW logo or air/land/water in the Mercedes star. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::It has a vague similarity to the GE logo :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Maybe it is because of the color. Here are some variations:

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute2.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute3.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute4.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute5.png
</gallery>
I don't like "W" in this logo. It is very Arabic-like. Moreover, first logo (wroute2) is still [[w:GE|GE]]-like. <s>Second variant... (my proxy-server cutted out it).</s> Third one (wroute4) is similar to [[en:Eurovision 2012|Eurovision Baku (Azerbaijan)]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::"Baku" is over and what is wrong with arabic?
::: Proposed variant of "W" letter is similar with Arabic letters. Such imitation (accidental or intentional) is good for Arabic organization or for travel agency working with Arabic states. And it is not good for international, interlanguage project about all countries of the World. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I'm still conditioned from the first impression but I still see the GE logo. Have you consider to modify the "dynamic route"? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::Consider: yes. But I like the actual form. And I see no "vague similarity" to the GE logo in the later suggestions, yes there are white lines in a circle – but that is the only similarity. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::I like this conceptually and visually, particularly in the third thumb above using our soon-to-be discarded logo's colors. The path is stylized/abstracted enough where I don't think using a W is problematic for language versions that do not use a Latin W in their name. But I also share concerns about the similarity to the GE logo. I guess that will be a question for Legal. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 14 - ''Lines and Arrow''==
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage_logo - arrow_prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2 no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype variant 1.png
</gallery>
Okay. This is the first of several designs I will be presenting. This one is an arrow formed with four lines, each one representing something. The grey line represents the roads, the green line the forests and national parks, the red line represents the attractions, and the blue line, the water. Together, they form an arrow, a symbol used to point directions across the globe, and well-known in the traveling world. The red semi-circle (which I originally planned to be blue, though) represents the land above which all those elements coexist; e.g. the earth. Any thoughts? — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 02:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Second version ===
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text (black).png
</gallery>
I have done this little tweak that I do like and adds a different meaning to the logo. Cheers. — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 08:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

: Generally speaking it doesn't inspire me, because the logo itself, doesn't give me the idea of the voyage, and with the wiki.label is applied below of it, they screech a little bit, because I don't perceive them as a whole thing. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::I like that this is very visually distinct, but share Andyrom75's concern that it's relation to travel is pretty hard to discern without an explanation. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like these. I see smth like "subway/railroad map" here (in both sections). It can be good for land transport system (subway or railroad company), but it is not good for WV. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 15 - ''Feet'' ==
<gallery>
Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|Version 1
Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|Version 5 (1 w/o disc)
Logo entry shyamal1.svg|Version 2
Logo entry shyamal2.svg|Version 3
Logo entry shyamal3.svg|Version 4
</gallery>

At 20px: [[File:Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|20px]][[File:Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|20px]][[File:Logo entry shyamal3.svg|20px]]

My logo is based on the <s>primitivity</s> primality (thanks [[en:User:AshLin]]) of feet in travel placed on a globe with some jut, here not accurately placed but could be designed with more geometrical accuracy and suggesting the same jigsaw theme of Wikipedia and using the same colour scheme (not adjusted exactly in the first version). Variants based on this can be considered. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 05:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like it. Give us an example without the grey disc. It might be a more powerful image. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
::Have added two other variants. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]])
:::Versions 2 and 3 are very much like a logo that I saw on a google search for "Footprints logo", so may be a Copyvio or TM issue. 4 is OK, but would still like to see a clean version of the first with ''only'' the footprints.
:::The original version is evocative of going out in various directions from a centre, it is fresh and dynamic, whereas the others all suggest a circularity of motion. I think an outward looking logo is most appropriate to our project. There is no need to dilute the message with any circular component.
:::The grey disc will reduce legibility in greyscale and B&W. A simple clean graphic works best as an icon. First version without circle has potential for all these things. Try icons at 16 or 20px to see what I mean. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Added simple version. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 07:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::I think it is the best of the variants. Crisp and clean and most clear at small sizes. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Very nice and original. My favourite is #4. That said, it doesn't recall me a "voyage". --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Good idea on the whole, but small icons is very muddy. May be, it is possible to use only one feet for small variant (heel is green, toes are red or smth like this). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like version 3, clean work.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

[[Category:Wikivoyage]]
[[Category:Logos]]

==Option 16 - ''Destination''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination.svg
</gallery>

The logo shows a dotted route with a cross for the destination. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]

:The "Red Cross" is known worldwide as something very different. --[[User:AndreasPraefcke|AndreasPraefcke]] ([[User talk:AndreasPraefcke|talk]]) 11:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I think that there's a root for a good idea, but you have to try something different. The blue bubbles gives me the idea of "thinking", maybe the red cross it's not the best option. Try to think on somthing related to a voyage: an airplane? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The "Red Cross" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination2.svg
</gallery>

:: This logo would be perfect for the Finnish version ;-) :-P --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree... just first we need the Finnish version... --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 23:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination3.svg
</gallery>

My first reaction was that it looks like there is a Christian slant to our travel info ;) Maybe rotate the cross a little closer to an X, as in X marks the spot on a treasure map? I really like the thought bubble effect, though, which suggests dreaming of travel. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The third version is not going to work. In situations where the logo won't be with "Wikivoyage", it would be colorless. Otherwise, it's a good idea, you just need to fiddle around with the colors to find the best. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 17 - ''Take off''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff.svg
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff2.svg
</gallery>

The logo shows an arrow (in Wikimedia colors) that starts to a voyage. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:I find version 1 more interesting. Version is is more like "come with me" while version 2 is "go that way". Try to make the gaps between the three colors a bit wider. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I have to say I like this one a lot (the curved one) - probably my favourite on this page! Nice and simple. However it is possible that I only think this way because of its resemblance to the previous logo? -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] ([[User talk:Chuq|talk]]) 23:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 18 - ''Simplified sailboat'' ==

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|[[File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|20px]] Sailboat 2.0
</gallery>
I liked [[#Option 9 - sailboat]] but found it to complicated. This is my first try to make it simpler. Please tell me what you think. I will try to add more versions depending on the input I get. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:Why aren't all of the sections of the outside the same color? I think it would be better just as one color.
:I'm slightly concerned about how a sailboat design will be when the logo has to be small, so can wee see it small? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::The green section is an island in the distance, blue is the water. The Wikimedia logo uses similar coloring. But you are right, I could try a single color. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::The wave below the boat can be stylized better. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Despite its name, Wikivoyage is not primarily about sailing (although coverage of sailing is most welcome!). That said, if you'd like to try simplifying the design even more, let's have a look. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 19 - ''Snake on a magic towel'' ==
[[File:Snake on magic towel.png|thumb|300px|Snake on a magic towel.]]
Ok guys, I admit it, I draw terribly, but damn all those logos look so ''boring'' for a fun, comunity-driven travelling site! I bring you a traveller snake, it still doesn't have name, it is up to the Wikivoyagers to decide how to call it. It flies on a towel and goes everywhere! That is why it is so happy. It could even have the tongue out like a dog enjoying a car ride with the windows down. The colors can be taken from the official scheme, and this snake likes to form a W, the magic word (how else could a magic towel fly?!). Sometimes it likes to pose sideways and then you have a stilized W with a towel underscoring it. Artists, designers... help! This snake is angry at me for such a poor rendition, it says it can look much better! Materials used: pen on post-it. --[[User:Micru|Micru]] ([[User talk:Micru|talk]]) 16:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:There is a big, big smile on my face :) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::As a general rule, logos should be as simple as possible, but I am definitely intrigued. If you get someone to "computerize" it, it could have potential. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage_magic_carpet.svg|thumb]]
:::It is such a cute "mascot" idea that I had to help out :) [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::A girly snake with long eyelashes ! Yeahhhh [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] ([[User talk:Anthere|talk]]) 05:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Oh! Really great, Shyamal and Micro. Just one thing bothers me about the new image - the tongue is a bit longue proportional to the body. (And forked on both ends?) –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  11:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Too complicated for a wiki logo that has to be instantly recognizable, even when it's very small. However, this could be Wikivoyage's unofficial (or even official) mascot, our version of Wikipe-tan. [[User:Simon Peter Hughes|Simon Peter Hughes]] ([[User talk:Simon Peter Hughes|talk]]) 13:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Not for the logo, but it could be a nice and funny mascot :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I like the sketch better ;)--[[User:Arnaugir|Arnaugir]] ([[User talk:Arnaugir|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I'd be happy to keep snakey as a mascot floating around the site either way, but I still think this could be made into an icon. It would just have to be simplified a good bit. Unfortunately, my icon generating skills are poor. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I don't think there's any potential as a logo, but it's fantastic as a mascot for the site, something we would significantly benefit from. Any reason it is a snake, though? They seem to have a negative, dangerous and poisonous connotation. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I just wanted to commend Micru for bringing up the tone aspect to our logo considerations. There are 3-4 extremely strong logo submissions above, but all are pretty masculine and "techy." The masculine, techy demographic is not one we Wikimedians have trouble attracting. Having something really fun, bright, and whimsical (like a snake on a flying carpet) could be a good way to make our project more approachable for other demographics that we need to fill out a well-rounded travel guide to the world with lively writing—I hope we see some more submissions in this vein. Despite not being all that good at it, I'm going to try and vectorize and scale down this idea. Hopefully I'll generate something useful. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 01:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 20 - ''Suitcase'' ==
<gallery>
[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|100px]]
File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|20px]] Suitcase
</gallery>
You might recognize this logo from [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1#Option 8 Suitcase]]. It´s simple and recognizable, even in a small version, as a logo should be. Some logos are to generic, it could be a logo for just anything, or they make the viewer associate it to something else than travels. All people think of travelling when they see a suitcase, it couldnt be about anything else. / [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 13:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I've been spoiled by wheeled rollaboards, but I see a briefcase here, not a suitcase. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 17:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::Coming from someone that carries suitcases on a flight like a man ([[File:Face-grin.svg|18px]]), I like this concept. It's unique enough that I don't think there's going to be any issues this time around. [[User:Signalizing|Signalizing]] ([[User talk:Signalizing|talk]]) 19:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I respect the effort that went into creating and submitting this proposed logo, but I don't find it elegant. There's a lot more to travel than luggage. Travel, to me, is above all about flexibility, imagination, discovery, and people learning more about the rest of the human race. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Exactly! Travel is motion. Luggage is hand/legcuffs. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions

2013-07-18T07:48:26Z

JamesA: /* Option 19 - Snake on a magic towel */ re

{{Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/banner}}

{{LangSwitch
|en = This page is for organizing and discussing initial submissions for the [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013|2013 Wikivoyage logo selection]]. Please see that page for general information, including rules of participation.

All contributors are invited to submit potential logos for review, in accordance with [[Logo selection procedure|the rules set out there]] and at [[Wikivoyage/Logo 2013]]. Please note that entering a submission constitutes your acceptance of those rules. Logo submissions should be listed and discussed here.

If you submit multiple different proposals, please indicate clearly which should be taken before the submission period ends. Otherwise ''all'' will be added to the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R1/Gallery|voting-gallery]]; but remember that voters have only 3 votes in total and adding lots of similar proposals may diminish the chances (this depends on how the voters behave, of course). Further information [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Submissions#Multiple similar submissions (variants)|available at the talk page]].
}}

==Option 1 - ''Flowing Arrow''==
''I'm not quite sure how to format this, so please feel free to move it around a bit.''

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Proposed logo
File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea 2.png|Proposed combination mark
</gallery>

Author: [[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]

This suggested logo has popped up previously, but here it is again; an abstract arrow. You can read a full (slightly tongue-in-cheek) explanation of my reasoning and see some implementations, other language versions and the SVG version that [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] very kindly made, [[:voy:User:Nicholasjf21/New_Logo_Concept|'''here''']]. Comments welcome! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
It's a really nice logo and I really like the baby blue colour, but in order to make it more in line with other Wikimedia projects, I would very much prefer for it to use the same colours as other recent logos, e.g. the Wikimedia logo itself.
I also agree with the comments previously voiced that making it somewhat more like both a compass needle and the Eiffel Tower at the same time would make it even more powerful. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments! :) I confess, I deliberately didn't use the WMF colours as none of the other 'consumer' (that's not the right word) wikis use the WMF colour scheme; if anything, blue is the more popular colour, but I used a brighter shade to differentiate ourselves; I know that some members of the community were not particularly keen on sharing colours with the 'meta' projects.
::I would personally be a little wary of making it look ''more'' like the Eiffel Tower and would prefer to keep the shape a little ambiguous in that respect: we don't want to be confused for the Parisian tourist board! I think it's nice that different people might see different things in the shape, but all of them are hopefully travel related. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. PrinceGloria, I really have no idea what you're thinking with your suggestions. Look at the logos for Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wiktionary, and Wikiversity. The only thing they have in common is that none of them use the colors of the Wikimedia logo! So why should Wikivoyage? I'm also not sure what's 'powerful' about looking like the Eiffel Tower; can you elaborate? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 23:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

::::I basically like this logo: color, form and thought. It works okay at a small size, but even in the gallery above I think that the version without the wordmark is too simple. I'm not sure what I'd add, but I think it needs ''something'' so that it's not a flat circle in bigger versions. Perhaps add continents to the globe (almost invisible at small sizes) or gradients. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::Too ''simple''?? I'm guessing you don't have formal training in graphic design. One of ''the most basic'' precepts of design (graphic or otherwise) is ''simplicity''. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::Thanks for your thoughts //Shell! As LtPowers has said, I've aimed to keep this logo as simple as possible in order to make it more powerful: a strong, confident symbol for the project. Some of the most iconic logos in the world are composed of very simple elements. Hopefully this simplicity means that it works well at many different sizes, which is important for a project like this. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::I appreciate the goal to have a simple logo. I still feel that it needs something at the size it will be viewed in most (135px wide with wordmark) and I think this logo is simpler than all other Wikimedia projects'. The Github mark ([https://github.com/logos the silhouette]) is one that I like very much - it's simple, yet contains details that make it interesting when large. Nick, what would you consider an iconic logo? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 21:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Thanks for responding. I'd like to think it's about as simple as the Wikiquote and Wikidata emblems; not unusually so. The GitHub mark, whilst nice, doesn't seem that much more 'exciting' than the logo above and a cat-octopus hybrid might look a tad incongruous here. Personally, I like 'clean' design and that's what I've aimed for here. The use of a world map would, I fear, make the logo seem a little 'fussy', whilst gradients are rather losing their vogue at present - a flat icon can be timeless. Some examples of simple logos that I would deem iconic are: the [http://api.ning.com/files/Fd0Hyt-VB-mLJyE6xLYZ**QLu2VVQfvnaIEzyxSO11rwdkqRti2q4ra1ES1p8jr1BpSEJSaRTmqdCOv-6CXzMGxmhyl-gUex/applelogo.gif Apple logo], the [http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/pepsi-new-logo.jpg Pepsi logo], the [http://www.logodesignlove.com/images/evolution/mercedes-benz-symbol.jpg Mercedes-Benz logo], the [http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/zine2/misc/Bell_logo.png Bell System logo], the [http://s3.freefoto.com/images/24/56/24_56_7_web.jpg British Rail logo] and the [http://www.creativereview.co.uk/images/uploads/2011/01/nikelogo_1.gif Nike tick]. I believe that simplicity makes a mark memorable and stronger. In reality, it's likely that the image in the top left corner is the largest resolution at which this logo is going to be seen. As such, it is important that it can be reproduced faithfully at a range of much smaller sizes too - if small details were introduced, there's a chance that they could be compressed and unpleasant or lost entirely. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::I'll quote myself just once more as a general statement of support for this submission: it suggests a V for Voyage, flight, a compass, and even a bit of ocean waves, while being very simple and sleek. Nick also explained that part of his inspiration was the three step evolution of our project and community, first developing at Wikitravel, then migrating (i.e., fleeing) to Wikivoyage, and then happily under the umbrella of the WMF. Thinking of the icon this way, the "arrow" acts not just as a compass needle, but also a pointer forward, which could be read as an allegory for our project's forward movement, or movement in general (and travel is, of course, movement). To respond to PrinceGloria and //Shell above, I think that simplicity and distinctiveness should actually be primary goals in creating a new logo, as these qualities imbue the icon with more power and "catchiness."

::::::::::I certainly hope to have the opportunity to look at more submissions, which hopefully are on the way, but I can say I'd be happy with this one, as long as there are no legal obstacles this time. Great start to the submissions! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::I think that this is an attractive logo, I just feel that if I saw it without the Wikivoyage label at the bottom, I wouldn't know it was for Wikivoyage. [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 01:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: '''(edit conflict)''' Thanks for your comments! Personally, I don't think a logo should be used to try and convey exactly what a project's about; after a while, any logo would become synonymous with WV simply by association. Other WMF logos seem to have been made with this in mind as well: either that or Wikipedia's developing spherical jigsaw puzzles and Wikisource is building an iceberg!
:::::::::::: A logo should, to my mind, convey the abstract spirit of a project , rather than explicitly say what an organisation stands for. If you look at the selection of logos I posted for //Shell above, none of them states what the company in question does, but gives a pictorial representation which might be used to identify them. That's what I've tried to create for Wikivoyage here. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 07:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::: I would reuse the font of the current logo. This would be a link with the current one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::::: In the context of travelling, the logo reminds me more of a paper plane than an arrow. And a paper plane looks strange in contrast to the massive pollution real aircrafts cause. --[[User:Nicor|Nicor]] ([[User talk:Nicor|talk]]) 09:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::@Nick: Wikiquote & Wikidata have simpler shapes, but the colors make them more interesting to me. My point about the Github silhouette was that the details in the tail make it interesting at high resolutions while lo-res versions are still clear. Those logos are rarely seen as simplified as the versions you linked: Apple's is often on their products, where the logo has some gloss/texture; Pepsi's on a can, also giving gloss; Mercedes-Benz's is chromium-plated and 3D; Nike's on shoes/clothes which give texture/interesting background (don't know about Bell/British Rail). Contrast that with the Wikivoyage logo, which will be viewed on a gray background with no more gloss/texture than it has from the start. I guess Microsoft's new icons are a better comparison, but even those are usually in a smaller format. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 12:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::I created a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|version showing my idea]]. To me the continents make it interesting at hi-res, while not taking anything away from the lo-res situations. (I'm not sure whether I can submit this version for Wikivoyage since it uses continents from [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|here]]) [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 14:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Shell, [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - continent contour and gradient.png|your version]] with continent outlines in the blue disk is very interesting. I'd like to see what that looks like with the continents more prominently displayed, maybe like, or not like, a blue marble. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 19:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::Rogerhc, I don't understand what you mean by "blue marble". Would you like a version with a darker outline? [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 19:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks for posting that //Shell! I'm still not completely sure of it myself: I still like plain and simple, but I do appreciate your input and it is interesting to see! :) Personally, I like bold, simple shapes and 'unfussy' design, even though it's not necessarily everyone's cup of tea. I'd like the logo to look the same at all resolutions if possible, but your opinion is just as valid as mine! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 12:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Under the terms of this process Shell can submit a derivative with those changes as an alternative proposal. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Absolutely! Shell's more than welcome to submit a derivative; the above is just my personal opinion. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 14:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::Quite so, and for what it's worth I prefer the plainer version. If I can make a suggestion, the curves of the gaps in the arrow could be harmonized a little. This one is on my short list at present. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Thanks! I am, unfortunately, away from my computer for the next couple of weeks (doing this on my phone), but once I get back, I'll try and smooth out some of the logo's rougher edges. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Peter, Am I though? My version is a combination of [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|Nick's idea]] and [[:File:Southern Hemisphere LamAz.png|a map]]. The map wasn't submitted here, so I don't believe I can submit my version without creating my own map or replacing it with one in the public domain. I'm not skilled enough to create my own, so either somebody else can create one or we'll have to find a better one. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::The shape of the earth is not copyrighted, just find a PD source and use that. You will want an svg anyway. cheers, · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Shell I like your improvement on Nick's idea. Give yourself a try and submit it. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I find Shell's version unnecessairly complicated. The power of Nick's version is its simplicity, relative uniqueness (it SUGGESTS a few things, but isn't one, so it has potential to become a universally recognized logo) and scalability (it works just as well as a thumb icon as it does as fullsize logo). [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::I made one more version, this time with a [[:File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea - split color.svg|split color]]. I don't intend to submit either variant now, since that would just confuse voters, but some people like the idea, I'll do something for the final round if this submission makes it that far. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 20:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't like it. The arrow is broken for my POV. Though, I think, it is possible to see something like sail in this arrow and to rework/redraw logo in this direction. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a little reminiscent to the [http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/OOo_Website_v2_copy.png OpenOffice.org ball logo], but probably not too much. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 23:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 2 - ''Info''==
<gallery>
WV logo v28.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

The "information desk" icon is used widely. The extra markers around the circle look like old maps. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
: Have you tried to reuse the current color palette? This maybe could fit better with some color choices that has been done in the past for maps & articles. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Digr]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think Option 11 - Compass Rose with Globe is better. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 3 - ''Plane 2''==
<gallery>
Plane2.png
</gallery>

==={{int:Talk}}===

It looks like both an open book and an airplane. It invites to open, read and write. --[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 22:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:I feel like you don't need to confine yourself to the Wikimedia shades. Was that your natural choice for both logos, or was it to reinforce brand identity? [[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 23:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

:: I remember this logo, and I really like the excellet idea that is behind it. Maybe (although I don't know how) I would graphically enforce these two concept, because without the explanation they don't arrive immediately. Once you know them, are clear, and are clear as well after several observation, but in my opinion a logo should be clear since the first glance. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

::: To me it looks like neither an open book nor an aircraft, even when I am told it should. I can see the attempted resemblance, but for me it just does not gel. That which makes it look somewhat like an aircraft, detracts from the book-like aspects and vice versa. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I can see the book but no aircraft. Wikivoyage is not Wikibooks, I dont want confusion. --[[User:Pyfisch|Pyfisch]] ([[User talk:Pyfisch|talk]]) 10:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::Great idea. It was my first choice during the first round already and it will be my first choice. Really like it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 13:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by [[User:Isatis78]] while [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Logo_2013/Submissions&diff=5644326&oldid=5644319 submitted] by [[User:NaBUru38]]. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 07:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:[[User:Isatis78]] has now confirmed agreement to the logo submission rules [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMdennis_%28WMF%29&diff=100028523&oldid=92444490 here]. Restoring this one to discussion. I've retitled this section according to the creator's original title. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

* I don't see plane, I see only book. Good idea, bad realization. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 4 - ''Next Generation Compass ''==
<gallery>
WikivoyageNewLogo1.png
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

A simple compass logo. Known as Rbrown on Wikivoyage. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*Does not show up very well · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 09:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*:I cropped the image - now it's better visible. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 09:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
*::Thank you Shell. [[User:Youtube2000|Youtube2000]] ([[User talk:Youtube2000|talk]]) 05:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
* Too simple. Unoriginal. Сolour match "salad green on white background" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
* It's a good idea but not very original, unfortunately. A lot of [[w:Garmin|GPS]] and navigation devices and software use compass icons. Even [[w:Safari (web browser)|web browsers]]. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 5 - ''The Old Logo''==

<gallery>
WikiVoyage-logo.svg
</gallery>
==={{int:Talk}}===

The logo is well known. And the WMF is already the owner. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 13:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that this submission breaks the rules: it was created by Hansm and Unger , but submitted by RolandUnger [[Special:Contributions/81.178.165.241|81.178.165.241]] 12:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: I think submission of the old logo is not a problem. It is created by Hansm and Unger, but the ownership is transferred to the wikivoyage community and if one of them wants it back that should not be made a big problem. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that might be stretching the point a bit, only one person can make an edit, or do you dispute that Unger and RolandUnger are the same person?· · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 12:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
: Unger and RolandUnger are the same person. I had to change my name because of SUL. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 18:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The weak point of this logo and other logo's based on the latin script that wikivoyage is project that is not a latin only project. The Greek and the Hebrew language version would look very funny with this logo. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 17:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

[[:en:Virgin_America|Virgin Airlines]]? [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 6 - ''Plane(t)''==
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange2.png|'''6a.''' Two planets
Wv logo proposal two worlds 1.png|'''6b.''' One planet
Wv logo proposal two worlds blue.png|'''6c.''' One planet blue
Wv logo proposal two worlds orange.png|'''6d.''' Two planets alt
</gallery>
<gallery>
Wv logo proposal plane and planet.png|'''6e.''' Plane and planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane and planet.png|'''6f.''' Looping plane and planet
Wv logo proposal plane in front of planet.png|'''6g.''' Plane in front of planet
Wv logo proposal looping plane.png|'''6h.''' Looping plane
Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|'''6i.''' Flying plane
</gallery>
[[File:Wv logo proposal flying plane.png|250px|thumbnail|'''6i.''' Flying plane]]

This is my submission for the Wikivoyage logo selection process. The logo emphasizes that Wikivoyage is a free, world-wide travel guide. The airplane represents travel, and considering we're a world-wide travel guide, it is flying around the Earth. The "free" bit is only slightly hinted at, as the airplane is flying in a half-moon-shaped reversed "c", a nod to our copyleft license.

The logo shows not one, but two planets, because we are a project that's a coming together of two worlds (two communities), now operating together in union. That's why the airplane is flying around both planets as if they are one.

I chose orange because it's a unique color not used by any other WMF project. But we can make dozens of variations with many different colors. I'm open for your comments and suggestions. [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 16:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

==={{int:Talk}}===
Seems like the Death Star with a bigger hole. ~~[[User:ebe123|EBE123]]~~ [[User talk:Ebe123|talk]][[Special:Contributions/Ebe123|Contribs]] 21:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 
Very nice but it remind me the expedia logo. [[User:Inkey|Inkey]] ([[User talk:Inkey|talk]]) 11:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:I think it's a bit similar to Expedia's previous logo, but not their current. [[User:Skalman|//Shell]] 18:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:: Generally speaking I like the logo, but it doesn't makes me think to a WMF site (I don't recall at all the expedia's one, so I'm not referring to it). Try to use all the RGB colors just to see what comes out. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 21:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm a fan of this, but would like to see some other versions. The planets to me look more like an eyeball, which probably isn't what you're going for. I don't think the swooshed plane, which I like a lot, is too similar to the old Expedia logo (the whole look is very different). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::The two planets were no success, so I uploaded a couple of different versions of the logo. I thought it might be an idea to make the plane loop, as it makes the logo a bit more playful and shows how fun travel is (just like how making loops is fun). [[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 03:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Upturned planes on 6f and 6h lead to [[:en:Fear of flying|aerophobia]]. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 15:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: I don't like most of the alternative versions you made, but 6i is excellent, I like a lot! PS The above Alex comment cracks me up! :-D --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

These are by far my favorite logos here (enough to make me make my first edit on Meta). Simple but interesting, and (my pet peeve) actually has good typography. 6d, 6g, and 6i are my favorites.—[[User:Kelvinsong|Kelvinsong]] ([[User talk:Kelvinsong|talk]]) 18:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 7 - ''WV logo''==

<gallery>
WV logo 1.svg
WV logo 2.svg|Modified to show components more clearly
WV Logo 2 - 50% grey.png|Grey scale rendering
WV Logo 2 - B and W.png|Line art rendering
</gallery>
20 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|20px]], 16 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|16px]], 10 px rendering [[File:WV logo 2.svg|10px]]

Colour could be anything that provides sufficient contrast. I like blue or green, which are particularly suitable for the negative version (white on colour or transparent on colour). · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 18:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Text is optional and can be chosen by the language version. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 10:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reminds me of the [[:en:Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit|Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber]] too much. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 20:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
::It actually does look a little like that, but I don't think many people would think of that when looking at this logo. It's a bit like the [[w:Rorschach test]]. ;) If other people agree with that, though, we might want to use a different logo. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 01:49, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::This invites a cease and desist from [http://www.vvv.nl/pagina/home/default.aspx the VVV]. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 10:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Their logo is three separate V's in a triangle in a square, this is a combined W and V in a circle. colours are different and can be changed, negative version differs even more. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::It is also different from the Mitsubishi logo, the Volkswagen logo, the Triangle health and fitness logo, Wyoming valley anthracite logo, West Virginia University logo, VVV Venlo logo and Anton May logo. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 11:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Modified logo it's definitely better that the original one. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I thought the simplicity of the original would be better, but now I have got used to the change I think you are right. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Our current logo is far more different from the WTC logo than this one from VVV, but it still invited a cease and desist. And the new version bears even more similarity to the VVV, which was born basically of the same idea. I like it, but I would be mega-cautious. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Legal department will make that decision I guess. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't like it. Very similar with WC room signs or with [[:en:Volkswagen|Volkswagen]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:Which WC room signs would that be? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 14:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:: I didn't say, that it was WC room sign. It has similar design for me, I see in proposed logo [http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/sendmeamirror/Signs%20and%20Symbols/wccircle.jpg smth like this] with two changes - C on right transformed to V on bottom, or woman triangle ([http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/608653/104911997/stock-photo-toilet-sign-with-geometry-figure-set-104911997.jpg like here]) without head. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
While I like this, particularly some ideas that come to mind using the very simple and stylized version in the first thumb, I share some worries about its similarity to other logos. In particular, the versions with the components separated a bit remind ''a lot'' of the Volkswagen logo. The other issue is that the WV initials don't apply to many language versions both currently and going forward. But if the logo is sufficiently abstracted, that is less of an issue. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:My imediate first thought when seeing this one was [http://www.wvusports.com/ the sports teams of the University of West Virginia]. I'm not versed enough in the law to know if it is close enough to matter, though. (Aside, the problems mentioned elsewhere about this one not being logical for non-latin script projects holds here.) [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 03:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 8 - ''Get Escape''==

<gallery>
WV Get Escape.svg | 1 - The original version
WV Get Escape 2.svg | 2 - Alternative version with square shape
WV Get Escape 3.svg | 3 - Alternative version with spherical shape
WV Get Escape 4.svg | 4 - Alternative version with 2 arrows wrapping a sphere
WV Get Escape 5.svg | 5 - Alternative version (as #4, but with 4 crossed arrows)
</gallery>

'''16px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|16px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|16px]]
'''20px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|20px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|20px]]
'''24px rendering:''' [[File:WV Get Escape.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 2.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 3.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 4.svg|24px]] [[File:WV Get Escape 5.svg|24px]]

I imagine a logo that could resemble a bird while spreading its wings and the letters "W" and "V" (WikiVoyage's initials) at the same time. Moreover, my logo wants to express the escape from the ordinary when someone takes a journey and the possibility to choose different paths before starting a trip. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 22:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like it! Uses the WMF color, it has the circle that recall the world and other WM logos, furthermore there's a W that recall Wikivoyage. Try to make some other alternatives on these theme, don't stop on the first idea. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 23:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Hey, did you maybe read on my mind? I just thought about a squared version this night (dropping out the circle), ''et voila''... --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Between the two I'd like more the first one. In the second one there's "too many angles", with the round shape is more balanced (IMO). --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Nice the third version, but I would let let arrows goes out from the circle to give more the idea of freedom. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't see any geo-themed object in this logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:As with some other submissions, I think it would be nice to get away from the WV initials, since they do not apply to many language versions--especially those with non-Latin writing systems. That said, this could be the starting point for a more abstracted logo focusing on the elements of motion out of one's individual sphere and into the rest of the globe. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::@Andyrom: OK, I'll try to adjust it as soon as possible. @Alex Spade: and so? What's the point? I don't think that some other submissions are strictly connected to a geographic theme. @Peter: it's true, you can see a WV at first sight on my logo, but I took into account non-Latin languages and I render it in order to be seen also as a route that from a starting point could take different directions around the world. Anyway, I thank you and Alex for the critics, maybe I'll create another version that might fit your needs. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 21:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Here we go! I revised the third version and added a new one featuring 2 arrows that look like the Tropics (in addition, it recalls in a different key WikiVoyage's current logo). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 08:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Update: I build another one from #4, using 4 crossed arrows that form a [[:en:Union Jack|Union Jack]]-like pattern. --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 12:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, some other submissions are not connected to a geographic theme too. But they have another, more important weaknesses (important for my POV). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: #5 looks like a Xmas ball :-D ... but I think you can work on #4 Try to put a "world" on that sphere, and maybe try also to work on those arrows giving them a more "mellifluous" style. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Do you mean an abstract representation of Earth? I don't know, it would be too... ''messy''! XD I just want to use simple geometric shapes in order to have a clean work (above all on small icons). --[[User:Mess|Mess]] ([[User talk:Mess|talk]]) 20:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Not abstract, just the map. Regarding the small icon, if you are not too convinced, it could be slightly different form the big one, I meant, with just the blue sphere. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 20:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Map as background? Hmmm... It can be interesting solution. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 21:57, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 9 - ''sailboat'' ==
<gallery>
File:Travel boat rgb logo.svg
File:Travel_boat_blue_logo.svg
File:Community boat logo.svg
</gallery>
Created by {{user|Isarra}} in R1 of the original contest. I like it, so I think it deserves another shot. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

:Reopened. Isarra has consented to the submission rules, [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Isarra&oldid=5653490 here]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 00:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:This is a nice design, and the colors work well together. It fits the theme of Wikivoyage of being free, etc., and it's a bonus that it depicts and actual voyage. Could I possibly see it with the word Wikivoyage under it? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::While pretty, and suggesting travel quite well, it is a bit cluttered and may not work as an icon or in greyscale.
::How does it look to the colourblind? · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:::I agree with Peter S. that this looks pretty, but a little cluttered. Maybe we could try it without the circles, just the boat? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::::This is far and beyond my favorite. [[User:The ed17|Ed]] [[User talk:The ed17|[talk]]] [[:en:User:The ed17|[en]]] 00:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 10 - ''signpost'' ==
{{collapse top|While nice, this logo is improperly submitted. Rule one states: ''Eligibility. You can submit logos for consideration only if (i) you are the original creator, or (ii) they are attributed modifications of other logos submitted through this process. By submitting, you implicitly acknowledge that you have read and agree to these rules.'' The original creator is encouraged to resubmit. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 06:14, 13 July 2013 (UTC)}}
<gallery>
File:GDJ-logotyp-propozycja-Reytana.svg
</gallery>
This one is nice too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}

==Option 11 - ''Compass Rose with Globe''==
<gallery>
File:WV logo v27.png|Version 0.2a [[File:WV logo v27.png|20px]]
File:WV logo v25 v2.png|Version 0.4a [[File:WV logo v25 v2.png|20px]]
</gallery>

I liked this one too. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 05:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


I liked it (second one). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I agree with Alex: the second one is better. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I like version 0.4a.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

While I like this a lot when considered independently, I think it's (much) too similar to the Meta logo. While that doesn't present trademark issues, since the WMF would own both, it still fails to give our project a unique look. (Actually, given Wikivoyage's greater visibility than Meta, it might be better to say that we'd be robbing Meta of ''its'' unique look!) At a minimum, I think the globe element would need to be completely rethought. The compass element in 0.4a is really nice, though. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
: I like Version 0.4a even if it is similar to the Meta log: Meta's looks concentrating and stable, this one moving outward dynamically.--[[User:Miya|miya]] ([[User talk:Miya|talk]]) 05:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Second one really elegant. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 07:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have said, I liked it (0.4a), but image must be cleared (see full size on image description page). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 12 - ''Arrows''==
<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw.svg|Main logo
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (GS).svg|Same logo - greyscale version (ie for greyscale printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (BW).svg|Same logo - black version (ie for Fax / monochrome printing)
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|only the arrows for special purposes (ie favicon)
</gallery>
:<s>[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Icon).svg|24x24px]] - Favicon proposal </s>
:[[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x16px]] - [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x24px]] [[File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw (Elements).svg|x32px]] - better favicon proposal in 16, 24 and 32px

My proposal for the new logo. The arrows represent the directions of travel, I took the colours from Wikimedia Design guidelines. Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 23:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::Very nice. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 01:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree. Very nice. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 04:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Very striking. The text can be translated while the logo remains recognizable for all languages. Works for me. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::I agree. Beautiful and versatile. Nice work. --[[User:Nanae|Nanae]] ([[User talk:Nanae|talk]]) 09:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Great. Simplicity is the best. Re the favicon: suggesting to remove either preferrably both letters (ie. as the last example is - some languages even don't use latin alphabet and ie. chinese/japanese characters probably wouldn't be legible, or consider azbuka, where the first letter is similar to latin B) or at least the "V" (mind translations, where "voyage" could be translated to the word beginning with the different letter). Favicons should be ''icons'' (preferably of the logotype) only. In any case, again, very nice work! Technical: What is the font and is it free? — [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 12:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Beautiful! I like a lot this one! In particular the first version (i.e. main logo)! It has all the feature that I was looking for (i.e. WMF logo & recall to the current one), furthermore, for future use it can be streched to the "only arrows version". Currently it's my favourite! Regarding the letters I don't consider it a problem, because we can have exactly the same approach of the wikipedia logo: an image with a text translated in each language. (e.g. [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ko/b/bc/Wiki.png ko], [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Wikipedia-logo-v2-it.png it], [//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg/135px-Wikipedia-logo-v2-fa.svg.png fa])--[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::It would work well with a wide variety of fonts, so that would be a separate issue. Each language could make their own decision on what best suits their name. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Thx for your feedback!
* I was not thinking about different character systems at the moment of creating the favicon, I think just the arrows will work better.
* If anyone here could translate wikivoyage to a language with different character systems (hebrew, any asian, kyrilic,...) I'd love to present them as demo.
* To clarify: the first three logo versions are the same logo for different purposes.
* The font I used was Gill Sans bold. The creator Eric Gill died in 1940, so it should be free in most countries. If there is any problem: I think most of the bold sanserif typeface would work as well.
Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 20:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (de).svg|most latin languages
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (el).svg|greek
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (es).svg|spanish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (he).svg|hebrew
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (pl).svg|polish
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (ru).svg|russian
WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw 2 (uk).svg|ukrain
</gallery>
Slightly new version using [[en:DejaVu fonts|DejaVu sans]], an open source font, the other languages for demo. Which version do you like more? Best --[[User:AleXXw|AleXXw]] ([[User talk:AleXXw|talk]]) 05:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

:There is one simple rule in typeface design and it is that Gill Sans always wins. Seriously though - drop the bold, it doesn't look good. Either Sans is fine to me, but not with bold. A very good design, I am only slightly worried it is not very travel-themed and could just as well be used by many other projects. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 19:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like concept "Three arrows". Four arrows are classic for geo-projects. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I confirm my appreciation for this logo, so I suggest you to invest part of your time in searching over the web if there's any similar registered logos that may arise legal issues. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:And I like the ''three'' arrows because it is ''different'' from the conventional four directions arrows and allows use of the three primary colours. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 13:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a very attractive, strong submission. The idea of an unconventional compass (which maybe I'm projecting onto the submission), is really cool. Working the name into the center of the logo is also a cool step. How would this work with a caption, if we choose to use one (we don't have to). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:I wasn't expecting to like anything better than Nick's arrow, but I like this submission best of all the ones that have been submitted so far. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 13 - ''W-route''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute.png
</gallery>

My logo shows a dynamic route (in shape of a curved "W") on a globe. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). The structure is the same as in the Wikipedia- or the Wikimedia logo: A round sign at the top und the text at the bottom. —''The preceding [[w:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]] ([[User talk:Giweddah|{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}]] • [[Special:Contributions/Geweddah|{{int:Contribslink}}]]) .
:I suggest a more obvious "W" for the "route". · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]:
::first it is a route – and with a little fantasy it becomes a "W". I like logos with a slight "secret": for example the (bavarian) air-screw in the BMW logo or air/land/water in the Mercedes star. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::It has a vague similarity to the GE logo :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Maybe it is because of the color. Here are some variations:

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute2.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute3.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute4.png
Wikivoyage-giweddah-wroute5.png
</gallery>
I don't like "W" in this logo. It is very Arabic-like. Moreover, first logo (wroute2) is still [[w:GE|GE]]-like. <s>Second variant... (my proxy-server cutted out it).</s> Third one (wroute4) is similar to [[en:Eurovision 2012|Eurovision Baku (Azerbaijan)]] logo. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::"Baku" is over and what is wrong with arabic?
::: Proposed variant of "W" letter is similar with Arabic letters. Such imitation (accidental or intentional) is good for Arabic organization or for travel agency working with Arabic states. And it is not good for international, interlanguage project about all countries of the World. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I'm still conditioned from the first impression but I still see the GE logo. Have you consider to modify the "dynamic route"? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::Consider: yes. But I like the actual form. And I see no "vague similarity" to the GE logo in the later suggestions, yes there are white lines in a circle – but that is the only similarity. [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:::I like this conceptually and visually, particularly in the third thumb above using our soon-to-be discarded logo's colors. The path is stylized/abstracted enough where I don't think using a W is problematic for language versions that do not use a Latin W in their name. But I also share concerns about the similarity to the GE logo. I guess that will be a question for Legal. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 14 - ''Lines and Arrow''==
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage_logo - arrow_prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype 2 no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - arrow prototype variant 1.png
</gallery>
Okay. This is the first of several designs I will be presenting. This one is an arrow formed with four lines, each one representing something. The grey line represents the roads, the green line the forests and national parks, the red line represents the attractions, and the blue line, the water. Together, they form an arrow, a symbol used to point directions across the globe, and well-known in the traveling world. The red semi-circle (which I originally planned to be blue, though) represents the land above which all those elements coexist; e.g. the earth. Any thoughts? — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 02:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

=== Second version ===
<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text.png
File:Wikivoyage logo - highway prototype no text (black).png
</gallery>
I have done this little tweak that I do like and adds a different meaning to the logo. Cheers. — [[User:Hahc21|'''ΛΧΣ''']][[User_talk:Hahc21|'''21''']] 08:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

: Generally speaking it doesn't inspire me, because the logo itself, doesn't give me the idea of the voyage, and with the wiki.label is applied below of it, they screech a little bit, because I don't perceive them as a whole thing. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

::I like that this is very visually distinct, but share Andyrom75's concern that it's relation to travel is pretty hard to discern without an explanation. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like these. I see smth like "subway/railroad map" here (in both sections). It can be good for land transport system (subway or railroad company), but it is not good for WV. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 15 - ''Feet'' ==
<gallery>
Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|Version 1
Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|Version 5 (1 w/o disc)
Logo entry shyamal1.svg|Version 2
Logo entry shyamal2.svg|Version 3
Logo entry shyamal3.svg|Version 4
</gallery>

At 20px: [[File:Logo_entry_shyamal4.svg|20px]][[File:Logo_entry_shyamal.svg|20px]][[File:Logo entry shyamal3.svg|20px]]

My logo is based on the <s>primitivity</s> primality (thanks [[en:User:AshLin]]) of feet in travel placed on a globe with some jut, here not accurately placed but could be designed with more geometrical accuracy and suggesting the same jigsaw theme of Wikipedia and using the same colour scheme (not adjusted exactly in the first version). Variants based on this can be considered. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 05:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like it. Give us an example without the grey disc. It might be a more powerful image. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 15:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
::Have added two other variants. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]])
:::Versions 2 and 3 are very much like a logo that I saw on a google search for "Footprints logo", so may be a Copyvio or TM issue. 4 is OK, but would still like to see a clean version of the first with ''only'' the footprints.
:::The original version is evocative of going out in various directions from a centre, it is fresh and dynamic, whereas the others all suggest a circularity of motion. I think an outward looking logo is most appropriate to our project. There is no need to dilute the message with any circular component.
:::The grey disc will reduce legibility in greyscale and B&W. A simple clean graphic works best as an icon. First version without circle has potential for all these things. Try icons at 16 or 20px to see what I mean. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 07:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Added simple version. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 07:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::I think it is the best of the variants. Crisp and clean and most clear at small sizes. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 08:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Very nice and original. My favourite is #4. That said, it doesn't recall me a "voyage". --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Good idea on the whole, but small icons is very muddy. May be, it is possible to use only one feet for small variant (heel is green, toes are red or smth like this). [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I like version 3, clean work.--[[User:Patafisik|Patafisik]] ([[User talk:Patafisik|talk]]) 15:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

[[Category:Wikivoyage]]
[[Category:Logos]]

==Option 16 - ''Destination''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination.svg
</gallery>

The logo shows a dotted route with a cross for the destination. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]

:The "Red Cross" is known worldwide as something very different. --[[User:AndreasPraefcke|AndreasPraefcke]] ([[User talk:AndreasPraefcke|talk]]) 11:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::I think that there's a root for a good idea, but you have to try something different. The blue bubbles gives me the idea of "thinking", maybe the red cross it's not the best option. Try to think on somthing related to a voyage: an airplane? --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 12:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The "Red Cross" is unacceptable. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 12:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination2.svg
</gallery>

:: This logo would be perfect for the Finnish version ;-) :-P --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 13:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree... just first we need the Finnish version... --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 23:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-destination3.svg
</gallery>

My first reaction was that it looks like there is a Christian slant to our travel info ;) Maybe rotate the cross a little closer to an X, as in X marks the spot on a treasure map? I really like the thought bubble effect, though, which suggests dreaming of travel. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:The third version is not going to work. In situations where the logo won't be with "Wikivoyage", it would be colorless. Otherwise, it's a good idea, you just need to fiddle around with the colors to find the best. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

==Option 17 - ''Take off''==

<gallery>
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff.svg
Wikivoyage-giweddah-takeoff2.svg
</gallery>

The logo shows an arrow (in Wikimedia colors) that starts to a voyage. The text uses the same font as the original logo (with new kerning). [[User:Giweddah|Giweddah]]
:I find version 1 more interesting. Version is is more like "come with me" while version 2 is "go that way". Try to make the gaps between the three colors a bit wider. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:I have to say I like this one a lot (the curved one) - probably my favourite on this page! Nice and simple. However it is possible that I only think this way because of its resemblance to the previous logo? -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] ([[User talk:Chuq|talk]]) 23:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 18 - ''Simplified sailboat'' ==

<gallery>
File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|[[File:Wikivoyage Logo TMg Sailboat.svg|20px]] Sailboat 2.0
</gallery>
I liked [[#Option 9 - sailboat]] but found it to complicated. This is my first try to make it simpler. Please tell me what you think. I will try to add more versions depending on the input I get. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

:Why aren't all of the sections of the outside the same color? I think it would be better just as one color.
:I'm slightly concerned about how a sailboat design will be when the logo has to be small, so can wee see it small? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::The green section is an island in the distance, blue is the water. The Wikimedia logo uses similar coloring. But you are right, I could try a single color. --[[User:TMg|TMg]] 23:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:::The wave below the boat can be stylized better. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Despite its name, Wikivoyage is not primarily about sailing (although coverage of sailing is most welcome!). That said, if you'd like to try simplifying the design even more, let's have a look. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 19 - ''Snake on a magic towel'' ==
[[File:Snake on magic towel.png|thumb|300px|Snake on a magic towel.]]
Ok guys, I admit it, I draw terribly, but damn all those logos look so ''boring'' for a fun, comunity-driven travelling site! I bring you a traveller snake, it still doesn't have name, it is up to the Wikivoyagers to decide how to call it. It flies on a towel and goes everywhere! That is why it is so happy. It could even have the tongue out like a dog enjoying a car ride with the windows down. The colors can be taken from the official scheme, and this snake likes to form a W, the magic word (how else could a magic towel fly?!). Sometimes it likes to pose sideways and then you have a stilized W with a towel underscoring it. Artists, designers... help! This snake is angry at me for such a poor rendition, it says it can look much better! Materials used: pen on post-it. --[[User:Micru|Micru]] ([[User talk:Micru|talk]]) 16:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
:There is a big, big smile on my face :) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
::As a general rule, logos should be as simple as possible, but I am definitely intrigued. If you get someone to "computerize" it, it could have potential. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage_magic_carpet.svg|thumb]]
:::It is such a cute "mascot" idea that I had to help out :) [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 01:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::A girly snake with long eyelashes ! Yeahhhh [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] ([[User talk:Anthere|talk]]) 05:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: Oh! Really great, Shyamal and Micro. Just one thing bothers me about the new image - the tongue is a bit longue proportional to the body. (And forked on both ends?) –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  11:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Too complicated for a wiki logo that has to be instantly recognizable, even when it's very small. However, this could be Wikivoyage's unofficial (or even official) mascot, our version of Wikipe-tan. [[User:Simon Peter Hughes|Simon Peter Hughes]] ([[User talk:Simon Peter Hughes|talk]]) 13:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Not for the logo, but it could be a nice and funny mascot :-) --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 17:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I like the sketch better ;)--[[User:Arnaugir|Arnaugir]] ([[User talk:Arnaugir|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::I'd be happy to keep snakey as a mascot floating around the site either way, but I still think this could be made into an icon. It would just have to be simplified a good bit. Unfortunately, my icon generating skills are poor. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I don't think there's any potential as a logo, but it's fantastic as a mascot for the site, something we would significantly benefit from. Any reason it is a snake, though? They seem to have a negative, dangerous and poisonous connotation. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I just wanted to commend Micru for bringing up the tone aspect to our logo considerations. There are 3-4 extremely strong logo submissions above, but all are pretty masculine and "techy." The masculine, techy demographic is not one we Wikimedians have trouble attracting. Having something really fun, bright, and whimsical (like a snake on a flying carpet) could be a good way to make our project more approachable for other demographics that we need to fill out a well-rounded travel guide to the world with lively writing—I hope we see some more submissions in this vein. Despite not being all that good at it, I'm going to try and vectorize and scale down this idea. Hopefully I'll generate something useful. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 01:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

== Option 20 - ''Suitcase'' ==
<gallery>
[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|100px]]
File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|[[File:Suitcase icon blue green red jpg to svg v1.svg|20px]] Suitcase
</gallery>
You might recognize this logo from [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1#Option 8 Suitcase]]. It´s simple and recognizable, even in a small version, as a logo should be. Some logos are to generic, it could be a logo for just anything, or they make the viewer associate it to something else than travels. All people think of travelling when they see a suitcase, it couldnt be about anything else. / [[User:Elinnea|Elinnea]] ([[User talk:Elinnea|talk]]) 13:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe I've been spoiled by wheeled rollaboards, but I see a briefcase here, not a suitcase. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 17:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::Coming from someone that carries suitcases on a flight like a man ([[File:Face-grin.svg|18px]]), I like this concept. It's unique enough that I don't think there's going to be any issues this time around. [[User:Signalizing|Signalizing]] ([[User talk:Signalizing|talk]]) 19:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
:::I respect the effort that went into creating and submitting this proposed logo, but I don't find it elegant. There's a lot more to travel than luggage. Travel, to me, is above all about flexibility, imagination, discovery, and people learning more about the rest of the human race. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 20:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Exactly! Travel is motion. Luggage is hand/legcuffs. [[User:Alex Spade|Alex Spade]] ([[User talk:Alex Spade|talk]]) 22:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

WeRelate/supporters

2013-07-14T07:36:27Z

JamesA: /* Supporters */

== Supporters ==
* –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]] 
* [[User:Ypnypn|Ypnypn]] ([[User talk:Ypnypn|talk]])
*--[[User:Giaccai|Giaccai]] ([[User talk:Giaccai|talk]]) 13:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
*--[[User:Qardys|Qardys]] ([[User talk:Qardys|talk]]) 13:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
* --[[User:DixonD|DixonD]] ([[User talk:DixonD|talk]]) 10:14, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
*[[User:Czech is Cyrillized|Czech is Cyrillized]] ([[User talk:Czech is Cyrillized|talk]])
* [[User:JakobSteenberg|JakobSteenberg]] ([[User talk:JakobSteenberg|talk]]) 21:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
* Makes more sense than OmegaWiki; it's role is not (yet) duplicated by any WMF projects. May change my mind if Wikidata comes up with a thing like this.--[[User:Seonookim|Seonookim]] ([[User talk:Seonookim|talk]]) 01:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
* Has potential, though there are a few lingering questions that should be answered in an RfC. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage/Lounge

2013-07-14T03:52:11Z

JamesA: /* Phrasebooks */ cmt

[[File:Zrh lx swiss lounge bar area.jpg|400px|thumb|The Zürich Airport Lounge Bar]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__ [[Category:Wikivoyage]]

<div style="font-size:larger;">
This is the '''Wikivoyage Lounge on Meta''' where we discuss the Wikivoyage project in general and issues related to more than one language version. Old discussions are [[Wikivoyage/Lounge/Archive|archived]].

<div style="border:none; padding:2%; margin-bottom:2%; margin-top:2%; text-align:center; font-weight:bold; font-size:larger;">'''[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Lounge&action=edit&section=new Please click here to begin a new discussion]'''
</div>
</div>

__TOC__

== Start a new language version ==

What needs to happen to get other language versions up?
Out main page currently lists seven, while the sidbar
on the WT en main page gives:

ar: الصفحة الرئيسية
ca: Pàgina principal
de: Hauptseite
eo: Ĉefpaĝo
es: Portada
fi: Etusivu
fr: Accueil
he: עמוד ראשי
hi: मुखपृष्ठ
hu: Kezdőlap
it: Pagina principale
ja: メインページ
ko: 대문
nl: Hoofdpagina
pl: Strona główna
pt: Página principal
ro: Portal
ru: Заглавная страница
sv: Huvudsida
zh: 首页

I saw discussion somewhere of problems bringing up the
Portuguese version. What of the rest? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 11:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
: You have to import the XML dumps into Wikimedia Incubator to start a new language version. Please see [[:voy:de:Wikivoyage:Lounge#Wikivoyage_im_Incubator]].--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 15:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Good start! ==
Hello, This place looks nice. I like the picture. That's a good start! [[User:Yann|Yann]] ([[User talk:Yann|talk]]) 12:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks! It's the traditional picture of Wikivoyage Lounges. On the continent, we prefer the Lounge to the Pub. ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 15:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Travel photo of the month ==

In German Wikivoyage each month we select a travel destination of the month that is featured on the wiki's main page. I would like to suggest to have the Travel photo of the month in the banner of the [[Wikivoyage]] portal on Meta picked by a different language community every month. What do you think about it? (Thx to Rogerhc for bringing up the issue on my user discussion page!) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Update on Internet Brands v. Holliday ==
Cf. http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/19/update-on-internet-brands-v-holliday/ --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 08:25, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
:See also: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/28/update-to-internet-brands-travel-site-lawsuit/ --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 22:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

== Wikivoyage in French ==
They're a problem with the linking to wikipedia article in french wikivoyage. The template WikiPedia:article always link us to the english wikipedia. I've made some changes and i must use WikiPedia:fr:article to go the french side. This will become problematic as most user will not use the :fr to go to the french version. I've not seen how i can change that in french:wikivoyage and i'm not a very good at using template and programmation. How can we fix this thing. Maybe colleague from the nederland or sverige wikivoyage have answer to this problem.
,
On a more content side i will say that things are starting slowly. Theres a lack of old participants that know the guideline and policies of wikivoyage. So the content part is starting slowly. Not a lot of participant, much less than the english version. But already they are some interesting addition in article. Some wikipedians from the french wikipedia come by and some old wikitravellers also. I will stay in touch here. Excuse my english, hope you're able to understand me. -- [[User:ChristianT|ChristianT]] ([[User talk:ChristianT|talk]]) 12:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

:The w: and wikipedia: links are [[talk:interwiki map|interwiki prefixes]], not templates (modèle). As the list of these prefixes is shared between all Wikimedia projects, it is not possible to fix this by editing a template. The only likely solution is to use some sort of robot script that replaces [[WikiPedia: in every article with something else, such as [[wikipedia:fr: or a template link. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 12:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
: Indeed, <nowiki>[[:wikipedia:fr:xxx]]</nowiki> for the time being seems to be the only option.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
::[[voy:fr:w:]] points at French Wikipedia whereas [[voy:fr:wikipedia:]] points at English Wikipedia. Can't you just use "w:" instead of "wikipedia:" everywhere? --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 16:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
:::wikipedia: links are moved to the sidebar on article pages, w: links are not - this isn't the same as the convention on Wikipédia itself (where articles have a == Liens externes == section for external links) but is the Wikivoyage convention. That creates a problem for all of our existing non-English articles with sidebar links to what should have been the same-language Wikipedia, but instead is w:en: [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 16:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI: We have a new template [[voy:de:Vorlage:Wikipedia]] in Germany WV for linking to Wikipedia in the sidebar, and we use the w: prefix in other places.

I've already realised that French WV is starting very slowly, and I can say for German WV that we are rather busy at the moment. However, I expect the project to take another half year or so at least to fix all the redlinks and to adapt to Wikimedia standards.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 17:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

BTW, Wikivoyage does not seem to be that popular amongst French-speaking Wikipedians: [[fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/11 novembre 2012#Wikivoyage]] --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:That doesn't surprise me; there are 3000 <nowiki>{{wikitravel}}</nowiki> templates (and its aliases) on en: pages awaiting robotic disposal (template was voted for deletion as Wikivoyage has the same content locally), on fr: it was 30 pages instead of 3000 and they were all replaced with <nowiki>{{autres projets}}</nowiki> manually. Maybe, because fr: is a smaller community, they're more likely to focus on just one project (Wikipédia) instead of dividing their efforts among multiple siblings? [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 01:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

==Official launch==
When should we launch officially? Have been looking around WV and it appears that about half the images are working. What percentage should be fixed before we begin advertising the site? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 05:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:The German one looks quite good. Features and all templates are working, als well as maps and coordinates and all infoboxes. Mostly the interwiki stuff is to be done and adapting some templates to WMF standards. We would say: Around Christmas. What do you think? -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:: Russian Wikivoyage has most of the images redlinks. If the images are done before Christmas, I guess we should be fine, the rest of the work will probably be completed by then.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::What is the best time to launch with respect to a media campaign? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 14:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

::::Let me think. Ymblanter's message is showing a problem to us. It seems, the transfer bots focus on the main uploaders first. So the images of en: and de: will be uploaded first. OK other language version use these images as well. But the other language versions will be fall behind. Sounds a bit uncomfortable to me. But have no idea, what to do. Just checking the situation again in two weeks? Would love to see all language version starting here with the same level. Have prepared a bottle of a nice drink here... Any chance to help? Should we upload images from the smaller language version by hand? Is help needed with templates interwiki or something? -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 21:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::Please do not start early. We should have more redlinks fixed in de.voy before leaving beta officially.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 22:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::: We are definitely unable to start before Christmas. Since holidays may be bad time for any media campaign, we should think about first part of January or any later date, which is suitable for advertising the site. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 22:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::experience suggests thats its best not to think in terms of media campaigns. The reality is that due to copyright issues there are going to be quite a lot of redlinks around whatever. Best approach is probably to work out what the most viewed pages are and fix the redlinks on those. Currently you are tending towards letting perfect be the enemy of good and that never ends well in the context of wikis.[[User:Geni|Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 08:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::: We (on Russian Wikivoyage) can get rid of redlinks in a couple of days just replacing them with valid images from Commons. I just do not think this is fair to contributors who previously spent time to search for appropriate images, sometimes to upload them, and now they would suddenly find that their images are gone from the WV pages just because we screwed up the process and wanted to open soon.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::@Aschmidt: Just suggested a recheck intwoo weeks. Not leaving beta. We should do it just to get informed about the situation on all the language versions. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 13:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:I'd suspect that the timing of media attention to the case isn't something which can be tightly controlled. It's going to be on the radar at whatever moment the last of the IB litigation (and any counterclaims) reaches final judgement... whether we are ready with images for launch at that time or not. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 14:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

== Logo round 2 ==

Voting in Round 2 of the Wikivoyage logo contest is underway at [[Wikivoyage/Logo]]. Have your say by supporting one or more choices, and/or participating in the discussion! [[User:This, that and the other|This, that and the other]] ([[User talk:This, that and the other|talk]]) 08:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

== Interwiki bots ==

Several days ago, Russian Wikivoyage became the first Wikivoyage project adopting [[Bot_policy/Implementation|The standart bot policy]]. We are now ready to host interwiki bots, who do not require any additional authorization. Is anybody interested in running an interwiki bot between different Wikivoyage versions? --[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 14:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

== Odd spot ==

[http://translate.google.com.au/#auto/en/DerFussi This] is really weird. Translating Stefan F's name into Ryan's... [[User:This, that and the other|This, that and the other]] ([[User talk:This, that and the other|talk]]) 10:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
:Very strange. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 18:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::hi hi: really strange. But I can confirm Stefan and Ryan are different persons. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

==Beta versus full launch==
WikiVoyage could potential launch in beta Nov 6th, 2012 on WMF servers. We have an issue surrounding moving images over to Commons (ie they will not all be their for a least a few weeks and thus some/most images will be red links). We are having a straw poll on if we should deal with images before a "beta" opening or defer any opening until after the images have been moved. Please weight in here [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Travel_Guide/Launch] [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 05:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

:I've noticed that the "it could be a bit bumpy while we're still in Beta" messages at the top of the English language version of Wikivoyage have now been removed recently. Does that mean that version is now out of Beta, please? --singapore[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|Alice]] 03:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
::The message has not been removed, although it's possible you dismissed it. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
:::You're right - I suppose it will be January now before the launch --singapore[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|Alice]] 18:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

== Translation ==

Will "Wikivoyage" be translated for other languages? [[User:Gálaniitoluodda|Gálaniitoluodda]] ([[User talk:Gálaniitoluodda|talk]]) 16:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
* Depends on the language version. For Russian Wikivoyage, we are [[Talk:Wikivoyage/ru|running the poll]] right now. For the languages using the Latin alphabet is probably the most reasonable to leave it untranslated, but it is up to these communities.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
*: My instinct would be to transliterate the English/French term to the target language, rather than translate -- if only because we may end up with conflicts in languages that don't have different words for "Travel" and "Voyage". [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
*:: In Russian, transliteration does not really sound nicely.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

== Project lists ==

Hi, why scrapping the Project lists? It's the same for all pages with the name of a Wikimedia project. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 23:49, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
:I removed the page top banner box with the links to the other MWF Projects ([[template:project lists]]) because this page ([[Wikivoyage]]) is not about those. Meta's [[Main Page]] is a more appropriate place for those links and they do look quite nice there; anyone can get there from here with one click on the big WM logo at top left of every page. Meta [[Wikivoyage]] is the place for us to focus on Wikivoyage which is rather complex enough already. However, thanks for the warm welcome! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::I don't get it. :-) Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. have this template too, so what's the problem? By the way, on the Meta Wiki main page in German there is no Wikivoyage. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 22:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
:::The problem is we have enough distractions already, quite a bit of work to do and there is a place for focus, clarity and simplicity in our lives. Regarding links to Wikivoyage, Wikivoyage on WMF is still in '''beta''' and not ripe for publicity yet; we are missing thousands of essential images that must all be imported by hand apparently, and there are lots of details that require our focus. What is "Meta Wiki main page in German" by the way? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::::Please see [[Main Page/de]]. Remember that Meta is multiligual. WV should be added there, of course. And if a template is used on other projects' sites, it should also be on the Wikivoyage page on Meta. I am going to add it again in a moment.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::::I've added Wikivoyage to the English and to the German main page template of WM projects.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
::::It's been reverted because it's still beta and hence not fit for the main page...--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:18, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:No need to be afraid that this link will reach a lot of people - it's even on the main page of WP. :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 19:57, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
::Dewiki only. ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 21:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:::You mean de.WP? :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 17:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
::::dewiki/enwiki normally means de/en.wikipedia, Yes. It's a bad habit, but it's the way it looks on wmf-sites, no matter we like it or not. -- [[User:Lavallen|Lavallen]] 14:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Does it? And even if, bad habits are to be changed. "Wiki" as an abbreviation for "Wikipedia" is one of the poorest of them all. :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 14:43, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
::::wp.de = de.wp = dewiki, with dewiki more often being used on the more technical platforms, I'm afraid… sorry for causing the confusion… ;) but dewiki still seems to be the only platform to have put devoy ;) on its main page.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC) …except for dewikiversity, of course… ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

== Finnish ==

Could someone create subdomain for Finnish language? There is quite many Finnish articles in Wikitravel, which could be imported to Wikivoyage. --[[User:Olli|Olli]] ([[User talk:Olli|talk]]) 10:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:There is already a [[Incubator:Incubator:Wikis#Wikivoyage|Finnish version on incubator]]. It will be available under wikivoyage.org as soon as the community is strong enough to be viable as a language version of its own.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 18:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
: If the former WT Finnish community is still around, I guess a request could be filed directly to Langcom, without having the Incubator version first. If there is no community, I think it is better indeed to go through the incubator.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
:: It's probably better to import the Finnish version of Wikitravel instead of restarting from scratch. Also, Finnish was one of the languages which got enough votes on the Wikivoyage e.V. site to allow the project to be opened there, although a few of the language versions with enough votes (e.g. Finnish) never opened, for some unknown reason. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 23:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
::: The reason is as follows. These votes appeared after the migration of en: in the end of August. At that time only four other languages had got sufficient support, while others were left for the future. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 23:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
::::At the end there was now time, because we started the migration to the WMF. But the finish content is available. Maybe the WMF should be asked whether they can import it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::See also [[incubator:Incubator:Wikivoyage import]]. It seems that there are plans to import more languages and that the first ones will be imported on 1 December. I hope that Finnish and the other languages will follow later. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 12:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
::So, will the Finnish Wikivoyage be published in near future or not? Is there really a need to configure the Incubator or something? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 15:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
:::The [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Spanish|Spanish]] and [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Portuguese|Portuguese]] Wikivoyages are being created right now. I think [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Romanian|Romanian]] will be next, and hopefully the others will be created soon after. It might be helpful to create a request for Finnish [[Language committee/Handbook (requesters)|here]] and fill in the correct settings. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 16:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Thanks for a tip. Now I have created the [[Requests_for_new_languages/Wikivoyage_Finnish|request for Finnish WV]]. --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 18:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::: As I understand the 8 language editions have long been "Approved" for import (-> [[Requests for new languages#Wikivoyage]] or earlier in [[Wikivoyage/New language versions]]) but nobody feels responsible, and except talk nothing productive happens. Or who can finally import it? --[[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 18:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::The developers are working on creating the Spanish [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42933] and Portuguese [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42934] versions right now. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 18:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::: And what is the status or where is the problem with all the other approved language versions? What are we waiting for? --[[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 19:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::::As I just said, the developers are working on Spanish and Portuguese first (those versions got the most support on their request pages), and the others will be next. Also, the remaining versions (besides Romanian and Finnish) don't have a request page yet with the needed settings. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 22:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::::: OK, now I've created also a polish request page with the settings -> [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Polish]] -- [[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 01:24, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::There are already the Spanish and Porguguese versions visible. When the Finnish version Wikivoyage is expected to be started? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 08:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not sure what the delay is now. You could try asking [[User:MF-Warburg]]. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 21:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

:Should something still be done before the Finnish version will be started? ([http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikivoyage_Finnish Request] exists.) --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 12:33, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
:: It should be approved by the Language Committee, then a bugzilla request should be filed.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Now the request status has been ''verified'' for 10 days. How long should it take before the Finnish Wikivoyage actually starts? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 15:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
::::Normally not long after the Bugzilla request. So now we are waiting the Language Committee's decision to accept it... and then Bugzilla request will be made. --[[User:Stryn|Stryn]] ([[User talk:Stryn|talk]]) 20:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::[[Requests for new languages#Wikivoyage]] tells that the Finnish version has been approved, but the request page doesn't mention anything about this. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 22:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::How the status ''approved'' should be shown in request page? Should the ''verification'' be changed into ''final decision''? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 11:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

== Italian Wikivoyage ==
:''See also [[stats:wikivoyage/EN/TablesWikipediaIT.htm]]
At this time voyage/it has only two active contributors assiduously I think it is better to move it on incubator until there is an adequate number of contributors [[Special:Contributions/82.51.127.28|82.51.127.28]] 21:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
:Why is it better? The project is more active than most small wikis. And as far I can see there's also not much vandalism/spam. Greetings, [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 21:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
::Because two contributors is not yet a community but a personal site for a wikimedia major project in the near future and if I'm not mistaken wikimedia requires more than three users for a project[[Special:Contributions/82.51.127.28|82.51.127.28]] 21:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
::: To get out of the incubator, there should be five active users. But here we talk about an existing project, with a lot of content to be maintained. Nobody closes existing projects just because some active users have left.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 01:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::::It's probably safe to say that wv/it will gain contributors once we leave Beta and put up a notice, send out the press release, etc. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 01:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::::: Absolutely.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 02:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
:Regardless, it will not be closed with two active contributors and an existing body of content for sure. The solution at most would be to get involved with it, rather than asking for it to be moved back to the incubator. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 05:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

==Legacy admin rights==
Where do we request legacy admin rights for "new" language versions? es and pt both currently have no admins! Texugo needs bureaucrat rights for :es and :pt, I need them for :es only. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
* I would normally expect elections running for a week, and if the result is successfull, request the rights on Meta.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
:Rather than do that every time, couldn't we have a discussion here demonstrating that there is support for legacy rights? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 05:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
::'''Support''' -- Peter and Texugo for admin and bureaucrat rights per Peter's above request. ''Please'' make it so before January 15 public launch. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
:::I'd argue that getting legacy rights (so if a user had adminship on the old equivalent Wikivoyage language version) shouldn't require any particular votes/discussion but rather could be just granted as "part of the migration". [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 18:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
::::The users active in es.wy are currently holding sysop elections at [[:es:voy:Wikiviajes:Elección de administradores temporales]]. I'd think everyone who wants to be an admin there should candidate there as well. If a user previously was an active contributor and sysop already on Wikitravel, his request for adminship will probably met with approval by the community. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 19:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 18:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' I think that people who had a sysop or bureaucrat flag at Wikitravel should have the same flag here, unless the person is employed by Internet Brands. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 21:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I´m still wondering how I can get the burocrat/admin rights on pt:/es:. Can anyone help me out here? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 16:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
:You can make a request at [[Steward requests/Permissions]]. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 21:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
::I personally would disagree the fact that these five users reflect community consensus. To me, in the cases of the Spanish and Portuguese communities, this wikis were not set up from wikitravel, but from various wikis that had, on their turn, used Wikitravel's contents. They are as such, in my eyes, new projects, and in the case of the Spanish Wikivoyage already have a far bigger involved community. I disagree, thus, that these users are granted adminship over there without any local process, as a kind of back-door deal. There is a big difference between Wikitravel and here, where Global Sysops and stewards can act in emergencies, and it is therefore IMO unnecesary to flag users who don't speak the language fluently, even if they did help build the content that is now on Wikivoyage. And for the record, I {{oppose}} this general rule, going through an RfA on two projects is no big deal, and this would show that the user has the trust of the community, which IMO an admin should have at all moments. [[User:Savh|'''S'''a]][[User talk:Savh|vh]][[:es:User:Savh|ñ]] 16:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks for joining the discussion, Savh. I think the :es community made it clear that they want a clean break from the history of the project pre:WMF move. That's a little bit of a surprise for the people who worked to make that move possible, but the :es community on WT wasn't very big or active for the past several years.
:::I hope you will follow developments on this page, so you can relay them back to the rest of the :es community that might not be following Meta discussions regarding Wikivoyage. In particular, we are working on potential major feature development, and I'm a little worried that the :es version has been diverging from the rest of our project to make it so different from the rest of Wikivoyage that it won't be able to benefit from new proposed features. But if you join such discussions (which are about to start here), then you should be able to preserve some integration with the rest of Wikivoyage. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 00:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
:::: Btw generally do we have all communities involved? I had contacts at different stages with representatives of German, English, Dutch, Russian and Swedish Wikivoyage, but I do not think I have ever seen anybody from French, Italian, Portuguese or Spanish Wikivoyage, at least not I know of (obviously I know that Particio Lorente was elected an es.wv admin and that he is a Board member, but this is about it).--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 09:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

== Spanish and Portuguese language versions ==

They are up! See [[voy:es:Página_principal]] and [[voy:pt:Página_principal]].Welcome to the family! :-) --[[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 21:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

== Social media ==

I notice the twitter account http://twitter.com/wikivoyage still uses the old logo and description?

Also there are several Wikivoyage facebook pages - and I'm not sure which is the official one - http://www.facebook.com/wikivoyage goes to a German language one (again, with the old logo). -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] ([[User talk:Chuq|talk]]) 06:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

:Yeah. I've noticed it last weekend. This reminds me to my duties. Thanks. I will change it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

:I have renamed our old wikivoyage facebook site to the "Wikivoyage - deutsch" because its related to the German content. After getting some likes I have grabbed an other Facebook page: [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wikivoyage/458314297538270]. This one can be used for the whole project. Anybody interested in admin it? I suffer from lack of time. You can contact/add me on facebook ([https://www.facebook.com/DerFussi]). -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

::It may be best to have just one per language; I'm not sure how a multi-language page would work. I created and admin'ed the Wikitravel FB page until I handed it over to IBobi; I've been thinking about setting one up for English Wikivoyage too. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Sounds good. I've just grabbed the other one just because of somebody use the like button. Facebook seems to display pages even when somebody did not created it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

::::You guys may be interested in a discussion I started a few days ago [http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Facebook_page here]. I wasn't even aware of this discussion. We're planning on making one Wikivoyage English Facebook page with the name "Wikivoyage", and preferably the domain facebook.com/wikivoyage, although that leads to the de page right now. As English is generally the lingua franca of the internet, I think cross-wiki issues are best broadcast through that page. Also, there are methods on Facebook to claim ownership of the various pages and create one, unified page through merging, something we'd want to look into. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:22, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

*'''Notice''' - In case anyone missed it, Wikivoyage English now has an official, regularly-updated Facebook page at [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wikivoyage/499207033469099]. Please go ahead and like us! :) [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

== New feature developments ==

It appears this page can sometimes be neglected, but I thought other language versions may benefit from discussions at [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap#Long_term_goals]] and [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#News_from_the_German_WV_guys]]. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

== wikivoyage.eu ==

Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere, but is there a plan to update [http://wikivoyage.eu] to the new website location? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 02:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

:The move of the domain from the WV association to the WMF is still in process. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 06:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

:: I guess the ownership isn't as important as the IP. Can't it just be made a CNAME? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 00:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:::I don't think one can CNAME the base domain name, just the individual subdomains. Redirecting it (HTTP error 302) should work, maybe they could do that? Changing the domain name server to point at a Wikimedia IPv4/IPv6 address only works if the Wikimedia servers are configured to return a sensible response to a request for the domain. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 00:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:::: If we're going to the effort of redirects, then it is only the portal page that responds to the .eu address. Every link from there goes to wikivoyage-old.org. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 05:02, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

== Interlingual Portal ==

On EN we're currently attempting to overhaul our main pages for both desktop computers and mobile devices and I thought it might also be nice to have a look at what we could do with the Interlingual Portal as it was earmarked for improvement on the [[Wikivoyage:Roadmap#Improve_Main_Page|Roadmap]]. I assume it's made in pure HTML, so is probably harder to edit collaboratively. What sort of things would we like to see? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
: When you write "the Interlingual Portal", do you mean [[Www.wikivoyage.org template]] or [[Wikivoyage]]? --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 12:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
::I mean the [[www.wikivoyage.org template]] in this case. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 14:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

==Style pages on Meta==

I just noticed there are a bunch of style "policy" pages on Meta/Wikivoyage (see [[special:allpages/Wikivoyage]]). What is their purpose, given that language versions have autonomy to develop their own style policies? I note that they are quite out-of-step with :en's policies. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 00:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
: What exactly style policy pages do you mean? Most of the pages listed there are old service pages needed for different activities during the transition period, and are now historical.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

== New Interlingual Portal ==
:''A related discussion on the English WV is archived at [http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub/2013#New_Interlingual_Portal Travellers' pub/2013#New Interlingual Portal].''
Hi! A while ago I saw that one of the goals on the English [[Wikivoyage:Roadmap|Roadmap]] was to improve WV's interlingual portal. So, with that in mind, I tried my hand at making a new one. Unfortunately the page is made in HTML; not Wiki-markup so can't be viewed as yet, however, you can find the code [[voy:User:Nicholasjf21/Portal|here]] and a screenshot of the proposed design below. The background image is only 50kb so shouldn't cause any loading issues. I'm sure lots of the translations are very poor, so please let me know what they should be! The reason the Romanian link is separate is that it had the lowest number of articles and there's only room for 10 links around the logo. It would be joined by any new version that commenced now. Any thoughts would be much appreciated! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 02:26, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage 20130318-021257.png|thumb|The proposed portal]]

:That looks really cool! (And about 1,000,000 times cooler than what we have right now.) There's a sort of telescope effect to the focus, like you are a voyager on the bow of a ship, searching for some destination ahead. It also harmonizes with our color scheme well. The transition from beautiful ocean to whaBAM gray box is pretty rough, though. Could they somehow be integrated into the image, or be placed into a different sort of graphic, with a frame? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 04:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks very much! I will try to smooth the transition a bit! In reality it shouldn't be quite as distressing on the eyes, as most users will have to scroll down to view the other links. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 09:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

:::I suspect that it may be difficult for some people to read dark blue text written on a light blue background. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 10:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

::::Right- I've changed it a little in order to reflect some of the above opinions; I'll take a look at font colours later on. You can view it 'live' [http://njf1.webs.com/Wikivoyage%20Portal.html here]. Please ignore the chinese characters at the bottom - they are not part of the design, but something either inflicted upon me by the host or an internal WM script that won't work on that host. Any thoughts? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 15:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

'''Where and how''' are our and other WMF portal pages actually implemented? What pages, templates, etc. are involved? What roll does [[Www.wikivoyage.org portal]] play in this? --[[user:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[user talk:rogerhc|talk]]) 23:32, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:[[Www.wikipedia.org template]], [[Www.wikivoyage.org template]], [[Www.wikibooks.org template]], etc. Only Meta admins (and stewards) can edit these. See [[Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_template]] and [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org_template]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
::I see those templates take HTML. Good. That opens up possibilities. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:::There are instructions to request changes on [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org template]], on the box at the top. I replied to your question on [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org portal]] too. If you have any other questions about Meta-related stuff, feel free to ask and I'll try to help. ;) [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

===Mock 1===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org Mock 1.png|thumb|upright=2|right|Mock 1 version of proposal as of March 20, 2013]]
'''Mock 1: [[Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp sky background]]''' ''(It's HTML; to preview it, select "Preview HTML" from the drop down menu next to the Search box on that page.)'' I darkened the links, fit all 11 languages around the logo, removed the pedantic "Search" translations (so unlike us to pester travelers, who come first, with stuff they don't need), and removed the white background from Other Projects so that they show on the sky. How does it look? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 05:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

:Thanks for coming up with this new idea about the design. I like it. How about chaning backgrounud images? Just a handfull of images, randomly choosen. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 06:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Like it. [[User:Gusta|Gusta]] ([[User talk:Gusta|talk]]) 16:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::I think the sky image only works because it is more a background gradient that an image. But anyone is welcome to prove me wrong. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

'''Please everyone who cares, speak up'''--shall we go like with '''[[Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp sky background|Mock 1]]''' for now? Dose it have any issues in various browsers or other issues you would like fixed first? Do you support going live with it? Got other versions to consider? Please pipe up. It would be great to have views from all WV language version communities. Thx! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:Should you advertise this on the various language editions of Wikivoyage or does everyone watch this page? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::Right, I will go advertise at each individual language version's community page... gotta run now though... so in a couple hours... when I'm back. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::So nobody can say this wasn't advertised: [[Meta:Babel#Change_Www.wikivoyage.org_template]], [[Wikimedia_Forum#Again_www.wikimedia.org_hasty_changes]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Just noticed it was already spammed on all the local community discussion pages. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Yes, sorry! I did that yesterday but forgot to tell everyone! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 00:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for notifying the communities. ;) I meant "spammed" in a good way, for what it's worth. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 02:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::To down a beer at each of 11 Pubs is to be smashed. Nick, you outdid me with the translations. I drank and ran before the locals could beat me up, I think. ;~] [[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Haha, I'm feeling a bit ill! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:44, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
====Comments on m1====
[[www.wikivoyage.org template/temp sky background]] is pretty. Eleven languages surrounding the Wikivoyage icon is a little awkward though. And it isn't totally obvious what the grid of (sister projects) icons is. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:True. The current [//www.wikivoyage.org www.wikivoyage.org] has these same defects and I haven't thought of any way to solve them. Suggestions? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not a designer, so I don't have any good suggestions on how to improve the page, but there are several things that I really dislike:
* The colored background image is opposite to the style of Wikivoyage and Wikimedia projects in general. They always use simple graphics and mild colors that look much better to my taste. It is kind of ridiculous to have this fancy image on the title page and lots of plain text in individual articles.
* Why do we need the words "Travel guide" written under each language? They look excessive.
* What shall we do with the 12th, 13th, etc. languages that will imminently appear?
* The links to sister projects are not well readable on this background. They take as much space as links to Wikivoyage itself and distract the reader.
--[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 06:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
: Few comments.
: - No issue neither with Chrome, Firefox nor IE with both the version of the main pages.
: - Comparing just the two versions I would say that the "fullscreen" image (second version) it's better than the first one, but from the first version I'll keep the number of articles because it give at the first glance an idea of the completeness of the project and a stimulus for the writer to do more (e.g. it.wikipeda.org has recently celebrate 1M articles).
: - Comparing these two voy home page versions with the other wiki's home pages, I agree with the first comment of Atsirlin, where he says that this style it's not coherent with the others and it's the only fullscreen image in the whole site. I don't say that's it's necessary a bad/wrong thing; it's just something to think of if it worths and/or make sense. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I think (if the words "Travel guide" are kept) for the Russian language the second line should be "Путеводитель" (travel guide), rather than "Туристический" (travellers') as it is now. --[[User:Л.П. Джепко|Л.П. Джепко]] ([[User talk:Л.П. Джепко|talk]]) 09:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:I see "Travel Guide" is a tricky translation in Russian. Could a few more Russian speakers comment please? Meanwhile, I have changed Mock 1 Russian tag line to "Путеводитель" and left the link title (hover text) as "Russkiy — wikivoyage — Туристический путеводитель". Is it right? Easy for me to cut and paste changes into the Mock; just let me know what the tag line and link title (hover text) should be in Russian. Same goes for other WV languages, too. I can only read and write English, myself. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 16:47, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:: Yes, "Путеводитель" seems to be the best option. It is a straightforward translation of Travel guide.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:: The hover text should be "Русский - Викигид - Путеводитель", all written in Cyrillic letters. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 19:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I also am not satisfied with Mock 1. I feel it
* is too dark, and
* has too much info pulling the user in too many directions.
I will try lightening it in a Mock 1.1 later today. As for simplifying the page, something like what Google.com looks like might work but may require a fresh start I. I personally feel we could skip the "portal" thing altogether and go direct to English, with a prominent Language switching element on page and a cookie to remember the users preferred language. However, if we are going to use a "portal" I am thinking making it primarily a Search box with everything else standing off in the wings like Google.com does it might work. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 17:09, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:1. Hi everyone! I like the general idea of Mock 1 but I also think that it looks a little too dark. It has no proper contrast between text and pictures and the bottom lines in Chinese look like the sort of mandatory information that has to be placed accordingly to local laws but that no one wants them to be read. However, this is my opinion on taking a look at the screenshot above and at the [http://njf1.webs.com/Wikivoyage%20Portal.html "live version"], since the command "preview html" is not working in my browser (Win 7 Pro / Firefox 19.0.2 / Adblock Plus deactivated).
:2. I think it would be a good idea to rotate pictures, which could be on a regular basis determined by whatever (season, country, time) but still should be using pictures which can make a good contrast with all the text around.
:3. I also like the distribution of text around the logo as a circle, since it could appear to be a telescope or a tire. But a distribution as wings could also be interesting. Wouldn't it? I also like having more languages around the logo, since a few ones (like the current 8 in the "live" version) make the whole image look like empty, as if something was missing or incomplete.
:4. Considering the current tag line, one better option for the Spanish title could be ''"La guía de viaje gratuita"'' (the free travel guide) instead ''"guía para viajar"'' (guide to travel), which is not a correct expression in Spanish.
:I guess that's all for the moment on this subject. Cheers from the es-wikivoyage! [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

===v2===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v2.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v2 as of March 21, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v2]], same as Mock 1 but with plain white background. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v2====
The Other Projects links have been let out of the coral and need to be wrangled back in again. I'll work on that. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:This one is more like the other portals (www.wikipedia.org, www.wiktionary.org, etc.). This could be considered good (branding, similarities) or bad (just the same idea with a different logo, etc.). [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 21:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Just go with eight or ten languages around the logo and start a "smaller projects" list. The current model isn't scalable. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 22:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:Lol! I just posted my comments on Mock 1... Anyway, I like this design as well but it looks somehow a little boring. I agree it looks more wiki-alike but I have the feeling that there's something missing that could give this general page a better sense of movement or fun. [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

: I like this version. Its idea is apparently copied from Wikipedia, but it looks nice and it is better than the previous version with colored background. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 18:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:This version is fine, but if I'm honest, probably no more than that - as [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] it's lacking a certain something. Personally I prefer the coloured background of the earlier prototype. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 19:16, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

===v3===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v3.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v3 as of March 22, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v3]], same as v2 but with Other Projects in the wings at page top. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v3====
Very nice indeed! That top bar looks great! I'd still like to see a return of the coloured background potentially, but this is really good! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 00:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I like this one a lot! --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 08:46, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I like it, but it still feels like something is missing.> [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 17:28, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

 

===v5===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v5.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v5 as of March 23, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v5]], same as v3 but with sky background.

v4? I did no submitted [[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v4|v4]], in which I experimented switching the emphasis in the language links, because having tried it I found it did not communicate well. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v5====

 

===v6===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v6.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v6 as of March 24, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v6]], same as v5 but with drop shadow highlighting on language links around logo. I will do same for "Wikivoyage"... no time right now... gotta run. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:14, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v6====
I really like this one. No further comments now. [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 00:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Very nice indeed - I like this a lot! I'm not completely sure about the shadows, but it is looking really good. The only thing is, there's a blue bar to the right hand side on the html preview - could we lose it? But really, great work Roger! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
:I don't know what is causing the bottom scroll bar to think there is something to scroll right to see. Alas. However, I have now covered that mysterious space with background-size: 102% 100% -- hides the mysterious blue line to right of background which showed when background was width 100% 100% and you scroll right. I think I've used up about all my design momentum now. Hope it has helped. Think I will focus on getting the [[#Universal Language Selector]] extension configured for us and installed, next. I think that could make the portal obsolete anyway. Okay with me if we use portal v6 or any other meanwhile. Guess I like v6 best. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
::I think this is great, and, I think I've changed my mind about the shadows too! Now we need to see if we can attract a consensus! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 23:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
:This looks really great and original. I could see this being used on [//www.wikivoyage.org]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
::: I would just modify the Italian lable "Guida" into "Guida turistica", because the first one is very generic, while the second one is the exact translation of "Travel guide". I tried to ask comment in the it:lounge but no one reply since now. The rest is fine. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 19:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::::{{Done}} [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp_v6&diff=5355270&oldid=5342322 diff] [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::The only issue now is that another language ([http://uk.wikivoyage.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0 Ukrainian]) has now been launched - we may need to move some links to the bottom again. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 22:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Also [[he:voy:|Hebrew]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Okay, added those to v6. Will refine the spacing after dinner. '''Please check''' the Hebrew and Ukrainian translations for me... --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
::::::::{{Done}}! '''Could an admin please take v6 live now?''' It is more up to date than the current live version (which lacks Hebrew and Ukrainian) and has consensus support above. Thanks! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 02:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::You can add a request on [[RFH]] or [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org template]] (use {{tl|editprotected}}). BTW, the translations look fine to me, but I can have some users who can speak those languages check, if you'd like. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 03:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::I've just put the 'other project' links in a table so they spread across the page equally. Hopefully we can get this implemented soon! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 15:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Undecided, but not opposed. I'm fine with the v6 if others want it. My misgivings with v6 are that it is too dark, too busy, and finally simply distracting. What does it mean, asks the viewer. Why am I looking at a sunset here? A plain white background is simpler too look at and does not leave the user wondering about these things. Hence, v7. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

===v7===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v7.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v7 as of April 1, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v7]], same as v6 but with plain white background.

====Comments on v7====
How is this different from v3? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
:v7 has:
:*Bigger "Wikivoyage" wordmark
:*All 13 languages around logo (v3 has only 11)
:*Sister projects list at top that stretches when window is very wide.
:*White text-shadows on wordmark and languages. This of course does not show on white background but would show if, for example, a light blue background were experimented with. It's a carry over from the sunset background code and could be refactored out if consensus moves to a white background.
:--[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

 

===v8===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v8.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v8 as of April 2, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v8]], same as v6 but with '''lighter sunset image''' and relocated WIKIMEDIA badge. Work in progress -- gotta go to bed now... --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 06:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

+ photo credit (below MEDIAWIKI badge), and switched to a version of the MEDIAWIKI badge that has a opacity 0.25 (25%) background so that it does not pop off the page so much. This version of the badge needs some fine tuning as the text is getting lost. Where can I get an SVG of the MEDIAWIKI badge from which to work? I've contacted [[User talk:Philippe (WMF)#Transparent WIKIMEDIA badge]] for guidance on that. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

+ links to "Terms of Use" and "Privacy Policy" at bottom. Just noticed those two links at page bottom on the current portal, [//www.vikivoyage.org www.vikivoyage.org]. Guess we should keep those. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 06:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v8====
*{{support}} Very very nice! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 10:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
*{{support}} [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 17:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC

*{{support}} I have put the request in at [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org_template#Proposal]] for an admin to take us live with v8. The lighter background has resolved my former doubts. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 17:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
*It would be nice to get rid of the horizontal scroll bar. It seems to be related to the "other projects" bar across the top. [[User:Nurg|Nurg]] ([[User talk:Nurg|talk]]) 04:46, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
:I agree - is this do-able? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 17:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

==Tagline==
(Copied from [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Tagline]])

From the comments above it looks like we're going to need a new tagline. If possible, can we try and make it short and it would probably would help if it weren't idiomatic. Here's a couple of thoughts: 'Liberating travel'; 'Set travel free'; 'Travel Freedom'. Any more ideas? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 18:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:Travellers helping travellers. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 18:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
::My vote goes with the above. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 18:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:(edit conflict) There was some discussion earlier at [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Tagline issue]], but it didn't go anywhere. The other languages should probably have some input; maybe we can talk about it at [[Wikivoyage/Lounge]]? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Links to Meta fixed. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::Why don't we ask Legal if using "The free travel guide" is likely to cause legal trouble? If it is not, then I think we may want to just go ahead and use the tag line _we_ always have. It describes _us_. _We_ made it (or, um, who did?). _Who_ owns it? Peter or Powers, would one of you ask WMF Legal please? I don't feel quite entitled to do so myself; am I being too modest? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:26, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:::When proposals were being made for WV logos, legal removed "The Free Travel Guide" from all of them out of legal concerns. Anyway, why should we insist on having the same tagline as our nemesis, who has incorporated into the logo on every page of their site? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 11:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
::::I do like 'Travellers helping travellers' - I think it's very clear and effective, but also gives as slight hint at this project's history. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 12:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::@Rogerhd: I am in contact with the General Counsel of the WMF. Should I ask him? I absolutely agree. The "Free travel guide" is fine to me as well. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 07:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::: User K7L commented in the English Wikivoyage pub that Wikipedia's tagline is "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", so Wikimedia clearly has an established right to that branding, and thus it seems that legally we would have as much (and probably more) right to the "the free worldwide travel guide that anyone can edit" tagline than any other site would. It would be great to get a legal opinion on the matter, but it doesn't seem like we're the site that should have to change, and thus I'd prefer to keep the existing tagline. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 16:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::: We should come up with another tagline that is in line with the other wikimedia projects. Instead of copying the tagline of a project that like very like wikivoyage. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: We editors and maintainers are the living project. The host is just a shell. Our former host owns a trademark and a domain name, that's it. We replace those with new, but not the rest. I say our tag line is part of what we keep. It always has and still does described what we are doing. No one has a trademark on "The Free /anything/". It's just a description. We have a moral obligation to stand up for our rights. We have a right to use "The Free Travel Guide," as does anyone else I would think. All the same, on www.wikivoyage.org Mock 1 I used just "Travel Guide" in its 11 translations because I like it better and find it less cluttered there, for that particularly repetitive page's purposes. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:47, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::How about 'The Open Travel Guide'? - most people assume everything on the web these days is free, so I think 'open' is a more important description. Plus it highlights a quality that another wiki-based online travel guide does not always espouse! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 14:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Quite good idea. I would support it, if its not too similar to the "Free Travel Guide" one. Is suppose "The free travel guide" is not an option, although i would love it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:47, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::Or how about 'The Traveller's Travel Guide'? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 13:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

== No portal ==

I have a sinking feeling that a Web portal, any Web portal, is annoying useless anti-user Web design. Why do we have one? Politics of the meek? Here's the solution:

#Default www.wikivoyage.org to the most common language--English, or the language we have most articles in--English, or if we can, detect the browser's default language and serve that language version.
#If the user choses a different language, take them to it and save the choice in a cookie for ever.

It is that simple. That's what we should be working on.

Any portal is going to be an embarrassment that no designing can fix, because it is just in the way. So remove it (as soon as we get a persistent language choice cookie working). A portal just doesn't do anything remotely useful enough to warrant serving it to everyone who goes to our main domain name, ever. I'm quite serious and I'm only saying this because it is a simple fact that no amount of designing can "fix" or change. Portals are an embarrassingly annoying waste of users' attention, every time they type our primary domain name into their browser. No, we cannot expect anyone to type a language code first. We should remove the portal, plain and simple, provide language choices in left sidebar, remember user's choice with a cookie, and let everyone in all languages use www.wikivoyage.org to go directly to the language version they were most recently on. That's simple. That's smart interface design that just works. No fuss. Who can help us do the auto browser language detection and persistent language choice cookie? (We already have a cookie in the current portal that remembers the Search language choice, but only for a lame 24 hours; so I know we can do a cookie, although I don't know how and it should be long term, not a lame 24 hours.)

Maybe I'm wrong; maybe it is best the way Wikipedia is doing it. But I don't think so. We never had a Web portal at WT and didn't need one. Why do we need this suddenly? What does it do for our users that they want done and are not simply annoyed by? '''Please comment. Thanks!''' --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:Sorry, but I do not wish to direct international people to only the English Wikivoyage, but let them decide which language they want to visit if I direct them to www.wikivoyage.org. This portal is working fine, and if you do not see any use for it: please do not use it, but let others do as it is useful for the worldwide human beings which also may be not experienced with English as language. [[User:Romaine|Romaine]] ([[User talk:Romaine|talk]]) 00:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::I think that use case is imaginary. How many websites do that? Are they all broken? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:07, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:Do you have any idea how that could be implemented? I suppose it should be filed as a bug on [[Bugzilla]] so the developers can implement this (if/when there is sufficient consensus). Not everyone uses cookies, so it might be inconvenient for them. I think Commons has a script to get the browser's language setting, which may be helpful if you decide to do that kind of thing. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 02:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::I think that redirecting people to one single project could look like some sort of an obligatory step for them (it makes me think on airport controls), which I think is not necessarily the best perception one wants to have for a new project. Does one? [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:::I really can understand your points Roger that this practice seems outdated and anti-user: there are very few websites outside of the WMF sphere that use such a system and it can slow things down. I do know however that, were the default page set to something other than English I'd probably find that annoying and I can imagine that this would be the case for speakers of other languages. The only alternative I can think of is having 1 main page - ie one page with content in many different languages (with an emphasis on the most popular) although that would also no doubt come with a series of problems! I might have a go at it later and show you the results. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:43, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

: I understand your argument, Roger, but I think that a redirect to English Wikivoyage is unfair. Let's choose a simple, unobtrusive layout for the portal page, and leave it in peace. Some people may use it, others will go directly to individual languages. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 18:43, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::Unfair? Is that why we did this? Does throwing up multilingual "portals" in front of Wikimedia sites ''make'' it fair that English is the common language on the Internet? Hm. Does it make us look like politically correct geese and add an extra page to figure out and click on to get to our site? Well, it does at the moment. I was ''annoyed'' the first time, more than a year ago, when I found a "portal" in front of Wikipedia.org. But Wikipedia is "not my wiki." I let it go. It is still there and annoying. But on Wikivoyage? Hm, ''who'' did this, anyway? What WV community consensus was achieved before throwing a "portal" up in front of our site? We ''are'' a travel guide in 11 languages, ''not'' an apology for the common language on the Internet. Our left sidebar ''links'' to our multiplicity of languages already, and our new Main Page bottom ''has'' an "Other Projects" icon tray already. People really don't want an extra page to digest. Fair doesn't enter the equation, they just want a travel guide already. Awesome, it has language links in the sidebar. How easy is that? Awesome, it remembered my language choice (wait.. we haven't implemented that yet, have we? Let's do--who can do this language cookie?). (See next section.) --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

'''I have changed my mind.''' I went to [//wikitravel.org/zh/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 Chinese WT] and asked myself if a newcomer who does not read Chinese could easily find the language links down page in the left sidebar. No, he couldn't. If the language links were at top right, where people will look for them on such a page, yes. But they are alas not there. We should fix ''that'' on WV first—see [[#Universal Language Selector]], below. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:02, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

As a disclaimer, I am a native English speaker however I do understand why we should not want to give undue prominence to the English language. Nevertheless, I believe the existing wikitravel portal page is a much more compelling entrance to the site than the wikivoyage portal that (frankly) looks like a low quality intranet site. Since we are trying to establish this site as the leading travel resource on the internet, can we please use the Wikipedia convention of English as the default? As an IT professional, I do see this as a big issue (although not a critical issue) for site adoption. --[[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 14:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

:If doing away with a portal, which I'm not convinced is the right solution, we would need a much more prominent notice on the individual main pages showing that we provide travel information in many languages. Our defining goal is to provide an open-content travel guide to the world ''in your own language''. English is our biggest language version, in no small part because it is the so-called global lingua franca, but it should be as obvious as possible to German speakers (just one example) that they can get (and contribute!) great information in their own language too. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

== Language cookie ==

I'd like to build consensus for a Bug request to have a '''"language cookie"''' implemented on wikivoyage.org that would remember, for both anonymous and logged in users, the language version of Wikivoyage they were last on and redirect them to it instead of displaying the "portal" the next time they go to wikivoyage.org or www.wikivoyage.org. The portal has no functionality that the Main Pages lack and is therefore irrelevant (see section above). This cookie would make it easier for repeat visitors to Wikivoyage to got to the language version of their choice, by anticipating that it is most often the one they were on last time and taking them to it. Simple, really. '''Please comment.''' Thx --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:It could be very simple if for registered and logged in users that cookie is linked to his/her preferences. However, for an anonymous visitor can be very annoying if the cookie recognises a region and redirects or uses the language of that geographical region instead of the preferred or wished language. I think of Google as example. If I'm logged in, the system shows a search engine in Spanish according to my account preferences but the text on it is shown in German and the results are mostly located through the German search engine when I am located in Germany. So, I still have to make a couple clicks here and there to get to the English version and its results (even if the menus and other texts are still shown in German or Spanish)! If there was a portal where I could choose my preferred search engine, that'd be simply great! And yes, I know there are some tricks to get to the version I want a little more directly, but the same idea applies there: I still have to find a way to go around the (for me) annoying mix of languages to get to my preferred search engine instead of having a simple page with all accurate options. Cheers! [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 23:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::You are right. Let's '''not''' do this cookie. At least not unless we get the language selection links into an ''obvious'' place at page top right where people will look for it. The language links down the left sidebar are just not obvious enough when you are on a Wikivoygae page in a language you don't know. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
::: The language drop down from the top on meta works great, I think. Why can't we use something like that? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 09:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
::::That's brilliant! Why didn't I think of that. Yes, that is what we should do instead of a portal. Of course, it would not offer to change the site's navigational language in our case, it would offer to take you to whatever language version of Wikivoyage you want (we have 11 to choose from at the moment). And it's a page top right interface item right where anyone can easily find it. Excellent! Checking [[Special:Version]] I see that it is, I think, [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector]]. I want it yesterday already! Do any of us have any experience configuring this? It should be on all language versions of Wikivoyage so that no user gets stranded on a language version lacking it. Once we have UniversalLanguageSelector working, then we can revisit loosing the portal. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:59, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

== [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector|Universal Language Selector]] ==

Extension [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector|Universal Language Selector]], if configured wisely, may be the language version switcher that simply works for Wikivoyage in any language, no "portal" needed. Who knows more about this? Who can help us figure out how to configure it? I'd like to have a test area in which to install and configure this, and let everyone kick the tires and make suggestions, before we push it out to all Wikivoyage language versions. Do we have a Wikivoyage test wiki we could install it on? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

:I want an easy to find languages switching icon at page top where most people will look for it, (like at top of this Meta page) that would do the following:
:* Offer language choices of all the Wikivoyage language versions, and take you to that language version when you click on that choice.
:Useful additional information might be shown on this Universal Language Selector language choices drop down pagelet, such as:
:* How many articles exist in that language version.
:* A link to that versions Main Page.
:* If the equivalent page to the one you are currently on _exists_ in a given language version, a link to that page. That page wont necessarily have the same name, eg Rome (en.voy) -> Roma (it.voy). If it _does not exist,_ a note indicating that.
:Those would be the core functions we want for WV I think. Universal Language Selector has other functionality that I think we would '''not''' want, such as changing the interface language. On Meta that functionality makes sense because Meta tries to be one multilingual wiki. But at WV (and WP) we use separate wikis for each language. So we would keep that functionality turned off, I think, on WV wikis. Keep it simple so people can use it without thinking about it.
:Might Stephan's new locdb (new "Page information" link, in Tools, in left sidebar on WV) be useful as part of extension Universal Language Selector, to provide the page counts and equivalent page names?
:Could we do that with Universal Language Selector? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 19:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
::I don't think that's what the Universal Language Selector is for. I think that the ULS is intended for multilingual projects, where people would like to switch languages (e.g., Wikidata and Meta-Wiki). You might be able to get it to do something like that. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 16:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

== New script : Semi-automatic merging of recent changes from WT to Wikivoyage ==

WT still gets good edits, mostly by Wikivoyage-unaware IPs. We should merge these good edits into WikiVoyage. I wrote a Linux script that makes it semi-automatic: 
https://github.com/nicolas-raoul/MergeFromWt

For each article recently modified on WT, it shows the differences between WT&WV in a diff editor, and give you a link to easily upload the merged wikicode if there are edits worth taking. You can easily choose what changes to take in the diff editor. To make it perfectly legal, the script also gives you the list of attributions to paste as an edit summary.

The script is pre-configured for English, but for another language just change the LANGUAGE setting at the top of the *run.sh* file. 
Please use it :-) Waiting for your feedback! [[User:Nicolas1981|Nicolas1981]] ([[User talk:Nicolas1981|talk]]) 07:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
:That's very cool. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  03:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Wikivoyage Logo ==

[[File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea.png|100px|frameless|right]]
Hi everyone!

I was just messing around a bit and thought I'd have a go at making a Wikivoyage logo. I've created a new symbol (right) and wordmark. You can see the full selection, with (rather pretentious!) explanation [[:voy:User:Nicholasjf21/New_Logo_Concept|here]]. There's also a mock-up of the site's portal using the logo [http://njf1.webs.com/Wikivoyage%20Portal.html here]. Any comments or suggestions would be very welcome! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 23:11, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
:I like it a lot but would prefer a slightly more subdued blue color. This one is a little too bright. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 23:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
::Fantastic! I think it would also make a great north arrow for our maps, with the point turned up (though I guess then it would also gain a passing resemblance to the Eiffel Tower, but then that might be a good thing for a travel guide). [[User:PerryPlanet|PerryPlanet]] ([[User talk:PerryPlanet|talk]]) 23:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
:::To quote myself... I'll happily say I'm a big fan of this! It suggests a V for Voyage, flight, a compass, and even a bit of ocean waves, while being very simple and sleek. Regarding the font, I think a little blue in it would be nice, but I like the font style itself. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 23:44, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

::::Thanks for your comments! I've darkened the blue slightly to make it a little less 'sharp'. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 23:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

:::::What's the purpose of this logo? Would this be limited to certain uses? Replace the current Wikivoyage logo? [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] ([[User talk:AHeneen|talk]]) 23:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

::::::It is a really nice work, and I agree with Peter's comments above. That said, I do not think we should focus on changing the logo right now in view of so many pressing / unresolved issues that, IMHO, should take precedence in occupying our limited time and attention. [[User:PrinceGloria|PrinceGloria]] ([[User talk:PrinceGloria|talk]]) 23:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

::::::: The idea would be to replace the current logo, yes. Hopefully, this won't take too much time or organisation from everyone. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 00:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I hear there may be an extenuating motive to change the logo. If so it would be nice if someone could give us a little info on that. Is there some legal issue? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]]] 01:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I myself like the current logo better which I have by now used to create this [[:File:Wikivoyage in the palm of your hands.jpg|neat derivative promotional image]], [[:File:Wikignome Wikivoyage.jpg|this Wikignome derivative image]], and to create the [[:File:Wikivoyage-logo-he.png|Hebrew Wikivoyage logo]]. I know that by now a lot of other derivative versions of the Wikivoyage logo have been made and that it would take a lot of time to redo them all (why didn't you hand in your suggestion in the [[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Logo#2012_logo_drive|2012 Wikivoyage logo drive]] held half a year ago?) [[User:ויקיג'אנקי|ויקיג'אנקי]] ([[User talk:ויקיג'אנקי|talk]]) 02:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

: I appreciate your work and thought behind it, but honestly speaking I prefer much more the current logo because, without any explanation it gives me the idea of the globe traveled in any direction, furthermore it's seems a 3D globe. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 06:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

:: About a quarter of a year there was a comprehensive [[Wikivoyage/Logo|2-round logo discussion and poll]]. I think we do not need a new discussion at this time. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 07:07, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

::: I agree with the previous speakers. After all, the new logo is already established. Therefore I see no reason to change it now. --[[User:NatiSythen|NatiSythen]] ([[User talk:NatiSythen|talk]]) 07:17, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

::::I also like better the previous one who is relatively new so if there is no legal reasons to change it, I'll rater keep the previous one--[[User:Adehertogh|Adehertogh]] ([[User talk:Adehertogh|talk]]) 08:02, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

{{oppose}} Current logo is quite good and better than proposed one. Current was selected in a long voting and discussion just a few months ago - do you want to change a logo each half a year? I don't see any reasons for it. --[[User:Base|Base]] ([[User talk:Base|talk]]) 13:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

:It is my understanding that there is a legal reason why we will have to change, but I would prefer to let the WMF make this known themselves on their own timeframe.

:Also, many Wikivoyagers were pretty unhappy with the last process--in particular, we felt overwhelmed by votes from users who are not Wikivoyage contributors. We actually don't allow voting on most versions of Wikivoyage! Our culture emphasizes discussion and consensus, and even that was ignored when setting up the last process. (And I have to be frank, the sort of knee jerk comments with pretty careless non-arguments like "we already have one," "I like the other one," contrasted with the serious thought Nick has put into designing a logo that would complement our culture and mission, reinforce concerns I have about the negative effect on consideration and discussion that voting produces.)

:Within the Wikivoyage community, we have been pretty clear since the migration that we will have another look at our graphics. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 16:37, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

::The '''[[Wikivoyage/Logo announcement|official announcement]]''' has been made. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 16:48, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry, but what is the legal reason? --[[User:Ralgis|Ralgis]] ([[User talk:Ralgis|talk]]) 16:55, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::Please click the link immediately above your comment... --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 16:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::I see. Thank you. --[[User:Ralgis|Ralgis]] ([[User talk:Ralgis|talk]]) 17:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::{{oppose}} The current logo is beautiful. [[User:Chocolate con galleta|Chocolate con galleta]] ([[User talk:Chocolate con galleta|talk]]) 23:10, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::'''''We cannot keep the current logo.''''' That is not up for debate. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 00:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

===Comments about this logo===
[[File:Logos2 blue.png|right|thumb|Blue text]]
[[File:Logo3 cyrillic.png|right|frameless]]
[[File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea 3 ES.png|right|frameless]]
[[File:Logos2 Greek.png|right|frameless]]
[[File:Logo2 Hebrew.png|right|frameless]]
[[File:Logos2 Polish.png|right|frameless]]
[[File:Logos2 Ukrainian.png|right|frameless]]
So, this discussion was quickly derailed, and it would be nice to get back to thoughts and suggestions about Nick's idea. I wanted to share the version with a suggested font to the right too. There are more mockups '''[[:voy:User:Nicholasjf21/New_Logo_Concept|here]]''' along with an explanation from Nick of his thinking. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:Here are versions for :ru and :es too. With Wikiviajes in a gray (I think the blue looks more Wikivoyagey, and complements the icon color). --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:43, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks Peter! If anyone would like to see another language version, just let me know what text you want and I'll sort it out. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 17:57, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::: Looks good.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::: From what I see, we need Greek, Hebrew, Polish, and Ukrainian.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:28, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::Thanks! I'll get on it! [[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 20:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Does the grey or the blue look better on the text? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 20:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:Gray; this particular blue, aside from being very similar to that used by a certain other travel site, has much more green in it than the rest of the logo. They seem to clash to me. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 20:18, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::Having looked a bit closer, I think you're probably right. It does look a little close to another site's logo and is a little clashing. I'll change it back. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 20:23, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::This is probably a stupid question, but shouldn't the image be on the right side for the Hebrew version? (RTL) [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I think the text will actually go underneath the icon, eventually. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 05:47, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage Logo Idea 2.png|right|frameless]]
:::::Yes, Peter's right - the plan would be for them ultimately to look like this:
:::::Sorry for putting it on the wrong side though! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 10:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::I've added the final two versions and flipped the Hebrew one round, though ultimately it shouldn't matter! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

==Re: legal issues==
If there are legal issues with current one why dont we just change it's colors? As i can remember there was choosing color discussion when it was elected. I think its better idea than use something extremely different. And there was other proposals during the last vote - why we look only on one? Sure voting by nonvoycommunity is bad but im not sure we can change it. E.g. current name of voy:uk: have been choosen mostly by ones that are not contributing in it, wy/uk editors supported mostly other variant. --[[User:Base|Base]] ([[User talk:Base|talk]]) 10:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:While using different colors may have prevented the WTO from complaining, now that they have filed a cease and desist, changing the colors would be similar to plagiarizing text, but changing the word order. In any rate, how to respond to legal issues is the one thing that is not community-decided; WMF legal makes this decision. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::I was explicitly told that we must start from scratch and cannot use a derivative of the current logo. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 20:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Originally current logo was created as some portal's logo, as I can remember, and the font was created before choosing logo and there were no problems with them in that time so I don't understand why we cant just create a new one that will only have different colors. I see no similarities to plagiarizing text here because the problem is only in appearance. WTO cant usurpate all logos that have horizontal strokes in it. I think it's too trivial picture and here only colors have some value. I think we should rollback to [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_2]] but not create new from scratch. It will be not derivative from current, it will be derivative from the same material, IMO. --[[User:Base|Base]] ([[User talk:Base|talk]]) 16:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::I'm afraid your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. WMF insists. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 20:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

If we must choose a new logo then I believe that it would only be fair that we held a new contest [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikivoyage/Logo#2012_logo_drive|similar to the old one]. [[User:ויקיג'אנקי|ויקיג'אנקי]] ([[User talk:ויקיג'אנקי|talk]]) 05:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:We're working on it; please see [[Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]] and [[Logo selection procedure]] and their associated talk pages. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

== Interwiki map ==

Can anyone help me adjust the interwiki map on pt:? We don't know how to do it. When we put the wikipedia interwiki <nowiki>[[wikipedia:Pagename]]</nowiki> at the bottom of articles to create the sidebar links, those automatically go to English wikipedia unless we put "pt:" before the page name every time. I'd like to set it to go to the corresponding WP:pt: page every time ''without'' having to specify the language every time. Does anyone know how to do that? Is it something we have to open a bugzilla request for? Any help would be greatly appreciated... [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 02:13, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
:Try <nowiki>[[w:Foo]]</nowiki>. wikipedia: -> enwiki, w: -> xx.wikipedia.org. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:34, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
::Sorry if I wasn't clear. I know that w: works, but that creates an in-line link in the article, not the sidebar interwiki link I'm trying to fix. Any other ideas? [[Special:Contributions/187.70.115.113|187.70.115.113]] 17:06, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Have a look at [[#Wikivoyage_in_French]] above. Looks like the Germans created a new template. -- [[User:Torty3|Torty3]] ([[User talk:Torty3|talk]]) 14:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

== Pagebanners ==

Hello, en.wikivoyage is looking at implementing pagebanners (example [[en:voy:Garibaldi_Provincial_Park]]) throughout the site, and a few other language versions have copied over their own. Concerns have come up over the duplication of titles, and we've been informed that we need to set $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false in InitialSettings.php in order to remove the duplication. We were in the middle of requesting this for en alone, before expanding it to all of Wikivoyage ([https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49015 bugzilla report]).

The decision to use pagebanners will still need to be made on each individual Wikivoyage, and this is a global technical change as a proactive step in any future usage of pagebanners for all Wikivoyages, removing the need for individual site requests. There will not be a visible change on sites that do not use pagebanners, but do note that this setting will allow [[mw:/Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle|the title to be displayed/renamed without restrictions]].

===Comments===
* I have found discussion about pagebanners in en, fr, it and uk among others and will need further comments about using pagebanners or about the configuration request. Firm support for pagebanners would be great. -- [[User:Torty3|Torty3]] ([[User talk:Torty3|talk]]) 14:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

: Question: setting $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false in InitialSettings.php, will vanish the title in ALL the pages, or it can be configured to hide it only in the ones equipped with topbanner? --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 15:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

:: It allows changing the title arbitrarily, while the default is to allow only minor changes (capitalisation, accents, dashes etcetera?). The setting seems not to change how the title is displayed by default. There might of course be security issues with being able to make the title of one page be that of another, but I cannot think of any exploits. --[[User:LPfi|LPfi]] ([[User talk:LPfi|talk]]) 18:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

* es: is [[:es:La posada#Propuesta para cambio de configuración global de restricciones de título de página|fully behind it so far]], and pt: [[:pt:Bar dos viajantes#Page banners|has no objection]] so far (and I doubt any is forthcoming). [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 04:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

* Looks nice at the first glance. As long as it does not look as ugly as your main page on my screen ([[:voy:en:File:WV new main page at 1920px.PNG|here]]). Be sure to use a minimum of 1920px image. But i suppose there wont be not that many suitable pictures on commons. Hopefully I am not right. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 05:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

::: I renew my doubt stated above, because I'm not sure that I've properly highlighted the main point.
::: If the $wgRestrictDisplayTitle it's not able to automatically show/hide the title according to the presence of the topbanner (consequently it's a global setting), maybe, regardless of it's current value, it would be better/easier to manage it through JS.
::: Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 08:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

:::: What this setting does is allows free use of the magic word DISPLAYTITLE. The pagebanner template uses this and CSS to hide the title, ie only pages with the pagebanner will be affected. Other pages without the banner (or the magic word) will look the same as always.
:::: If there is a solution with JS, that would be nice too, but I think a basic config is simpler (though tedious to request). -- [[User:Torty3|Torty3]] ([[User talk:Torty3|talk]]) 08:58, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
::::: Got it. I've understood the purpose and that it will work only for the article with the pagebanner. Now, since I haven't seen the desired layout (if you have a screenshot, it would be fine), I can only make some guess with the JS. Try to test these two patch and let me know how they works:
::::: 1) $(".topbanner").closest(".mw-body").children(".firstHeading").hide(); ... this will hide both the page title and the line below it
::::: 2) $(".topbanner").closest(".mw-body").children(".firstHeading").children("span").children("span").text(""); ... this will hide just the title, leaving the line below of it.
::::: In both cases the world icone should be relocated, but if I'm not wrong the final position of it should be inside the pagebanner (topright corner) as in [[en:voy:Garibaldi Provincial Park]], right?
::::: Let me know, --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 11:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Works great Andy, so question is what do we do now? I feel like this is technically against the rules of changing page titles, or maybe it just shows how easy it is to break MediaWiki. -- [[User:Torty3|Torty3]] ([[User talk:Torty3|talk]]) 01:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Doesn't really break MediaWiki--in fact, it only works with JavaScript enabled. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:05, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

* Setting $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false is not a problem, quite the contrary: we can display completely different titles for instance for sites and subsites containing for instance slashes. But I am not really sure if it is useful to suppress the display of the article title. Because users of the mediawiki software expect the title at this place. Another problem is the breadcrumb trail which is not shown any longer or flying in the nonentity. --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 08:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

* ru: is still undecided about page banners, but we certainly do not object this request. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 12:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

==Interlingual liaisons==

I and others have worried that we haven't had very good interlingual communication and coordination in our first year as a WMF project, and I've been thinking of how to change this. Long, long ago we had liaisons for each language version who would write up a little report now and then of anything interesting going on in their particular language version, to share with the broader community. We could start this again, just to check in and mention what major projects are being developed (like the table of contents banners, dynamic maps, etc.), what technical difficulties have been experienced, what project goals have been reached, or even just to let others know that great work has been done recently on a particular guide.

Would anyone be interested in this? I don't think it would need to be very formal—we could just use [[Wikivoyage/Summit]] and have a new section by the month. It would give us all a good reason to look at Meta/Wikivoyage more often. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 05:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
: We can try this. We need some coordination anyway, because different versions slowly become technically incompatible.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::Technically incompatible how? Can you give an example? Personally, I never paid much attention to the other language versions before the move to WMF; is there any particular reason we all have to remain in sync? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 13:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::: [[:wikivoyage:ru:Лукка]], for example: If you click on the only link in the citybar template, you get to a map with various signs. Clicking then on (almost) any sign produces a name and a picture. All this is done by templates which are I believe not supported by any other language version. Well, no, there is no particular reason we should stay in sync, but it would be nice since then we could easily translate articles or collectively solve technical problems.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::: Ideally, we should be able to copy content from one language to another and only translate the text. Smaller language versions could also benefit from technical developments introduced on en: and de: --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 20:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

:I would be very much interested in such a project because I strongly believe in overall positive effects of interlanguage cooperation (sadly this has failed as far Wikipedia is concerned). Monthly reports with several sections (tech, featured articles, policies etc) would be sufficient I think. It seems that model adapted by [[Tech/News|Tech News]] team would be the best way to go for us. [[User:Kpjas|Kpjas]] ([[User talk:Kpjas|talk]]) 14:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

::I have created a very basic version and an initial [en] report, just to see if we can get this started. It's at [[Wikivoyage/Summit]]. We will need volunteer "ambassadors" from different language versions. I don't think we need to think of that as a designated responsibility—anyone should feel welcome to contribute, and no one should feel obligated to do so. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 18:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
::: Thank you, Peter! We would be happy to join. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 20:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

== Multilingual statistics report ==

Way back in the day, we had a page, updated weekly, of multilingual statistics (old Wt page [http://wikitravel.org/shared/Multilingual_statistics here]), showing article and edit counts, numbers of new pages and new users, edits per article and per user, etc., plus a nice article count chart showing which versions grew or shrank, by how much, etc. I assume it must have been something updated by a bot. Personally, I think it would be great if we could get something like that set up here. What do others think? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 13:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:this page looks pretty sufficient as far as statistics goes. :[[User:Kpjas|Kpjas]] ([[User talk:Kpjas|talk]]) 15:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:: The problem is it is Wikitravel page, not ours.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 15:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::It would be great to resurrect this feature. I won't be of much help, though ;) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
::::: sorry, my mistake - the link got missing somehow → http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikivoyage/EN/Sitemap.htm [[User:Kpjas|Kpjas]] ([[User talk:Kpjas|talk]]) 20:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
::::::Those are very helpful! --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::en:voy's average bytes-per-article stat took a 20% jump from April to May. I wonder what could cause that. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 23:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: The updated current picture is shown in [[voy:it:Wikivoyage:Statistiche|this page]] that I've created few days ago. Clearly to have an historic situation, other tool are needed. de:voy made a great work on this field (server side). You should contact them. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 10:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

== Pagebanner nomenclature ==

According to the discussion started [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Pagebanner nomenclature|in en:voy]], I suggest that someone from en:voy should write a brief (and agreed) rule on the Pagebanner nomenclature and spread a message on the various wiki-bar/lounges (in particular the ones that are using the Pagebanner) in order to let them know what's going on behind this renaming activity.

Personally, I've received several user's questions via talk/IRC, and maybe the same story is happening on other wikis.

Furthermore, once the policy has been written, it can be spread all over the other wikis to avoid further rework. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 10:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

== Phrasebooks ==

I've noticed that on the phrasebooks there are differences between the various wikis that should be harmonized.

At the first glance this group of articles have been placed under different namespaces (NS:x)
* The various phrasebooks have been placed:
** by it:voy under Tematica NS
** by de:voy under Thema NS
** all the other in the main namespace (NS:0)
* The phrasebooks list has been placed:
** by it:voy under Tematica NS
** by de:voy under Thema NS
** by fr:voy, ru:voy, sv:voy under Wikivoyage NS
** by ro:voy under Project NS
** all the other in the main namespace (NS:0)

I think that we should select a common way to store them.

Possible solution are the followings:
# main namespce
# Tematica/Thema .... translated in all the languages
# Phrasebook/Frasario .... translated in all the languages
# Other proposals .... to be translated for each language
# Wikivoyage .... the same for each language
# Other proposals .... with a common name for all the languages

At the moment my favour goes to #3 because:
* I see it as a parallel project inside wikivoyage (I don't like to mix "place articles" with "support articles");
* each wiki felt naturally the need to specify this words in the title of each article of this group;
* furthermore it's the same choice made by Lonely Planet, so maybe it's not so extravagant :-)

However, I'd like to listen to your opinions.

Please share your ideas. --[[User:Andyrom75|'''Andyrom75''']] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 16:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:In the german Wikivoyage only places are stored in the main namespace. I don't think that the community will change this. The "Thema" namespace is for all other content for travellers. The phrasebooks are no Voy-Internals, so the should in my oppinion not in the Project namespace. I don't think we need an extra namespace for only a couple of pages. Wy do we need to move the pages in all wikis to the same namespace? --[[User:Pyfisch|Pyfisch]] ([[User talk:Pyfisch|talk]]) 18:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:: I am somehow confused. Do all Wikivoyages use the same set of namespaces, to start with?--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 20:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
::: It would seem that they do not. As in en: we have no namespace equivalent to Thema/Thematica and have all articles intended for public view in main space. Remember that de: and it: went their own way for several years, and developed differently. I think that some compelling reason would be necessary to get consensus for a change either way. Does a compelling reason exist? I think en: would argue that we have not noticed one yet. If we were to change, Phrasebook or is to me the obvious choice, with translated equivalents with the same namespace identity number in the other languages.· · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter (Southwood)]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|(talk)]]: 20:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
:::: en:voy's community would most likely oppose moving it to any other namespace except the mainspace. We have decided that ''all'' content articles, regardless of whether they are destinations, travel topics, lists of star articles, or phrasebooks, belong in the mainspace. We don't have separate namespaces for different types of reader content, and I don't think we should. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 03:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage/List of Wikivoyagers by location

2013-07-10T13:41:58Z

JamesA: /* Australia */ me

Wikivoyagers may sign this page to help arrange meetings in real life.

To sign, add your location and next to that add your user name by adding three tildes, like this <nowiki>~~~</nowiki>, if you are already [[Special:Userlogin|registered]] and have a user page here.

To link to your user page on your language versioen, just type in: <code><nowiki>[[:<language version>:User:<Loginname>|<Your preferred name>]]</nowiki></code>,

For contact persons for specific travel destinations, see [[Wikivoyage/List of Wikivoyagers by destination]].

== Africa ==

== Amerika ==

== Asia ==
===South East Asia===
====Vietnam====
*'''Ho Chi Minh City''': [[:vi:user:Voyageditor|Voyageditor]]

== Australia ==
*'''Melbourne:''' [[User:JamesA|JamesA]]

== Europe ==

=== Austria ===

=== Tyrol ===

* '''Schlitters:''' [[:de:Benutzer:uptojoe|uptojoe]]

=== Belgium ===
* '''Brussels:''' [[User:Mulleflupp|Mulleflupp]]

=== France ===

=== Germany ===

==== Baden-Württemberg ====
* '''Kraichgau''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Bgabel|Berthold]]
* '''Rudersberg''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Fleckvieh|Fleckvieh]]

==== Bavaria ====
* '''Aschaffenburg''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Monie|Monie]]
* '''Augsburg''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Groovehunter|Groovehunter]]
* '''Bodenmais''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Menz|Menz]]
* '''Kulmbach''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Benreis|Benreis]]
* '''München''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Bbb|Bbb]]
* '''Regensburg''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Mikesc|Mikesc]]

==== Berlin ====

==== Brandenburg ====
* '''Cottbus''': [[:de:Benutzer:DerFussi|DerFussi]], [[:de:Benutzer:Jr72|Jr72]]

==== Bremen ====

==== Hamburg ====

==== Hesse ====
*'''Frankfurt am Main:''' [[:de:Benutzer:Thomas|Thomas]], [[:de:Benutzer:Uli|Uli]]
*'''Gelnhausen''': [[:de:Benutzer:jensre|jensre]]
*'''Kassel''': [[:de:Benutzer:Celsius|celsius]]
*'''Neu-Isenburg''': [[:de:User:schneeschmelze|schneeschmelze]]
*'''Wiesbaden''': [[:de:Benutzer:Pedelecs|Pedelecs]]

==== Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania ====

==== Lower Saxony ====

==== North Rhine-Westphalia ====
* '''Eifel''': [[:de:Benutzer:Eifelyeti|Eifelyeti]]
* '''Wuppertal''': [[:de:Benutzer:MichaelR|MichaelR]]
* '''Cologne''': [[:de:Benutzer:Elelicht|Klaus]]

==== Rhineland-Palatinate ====
* '''Trier''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Hauki|Hauki]]

==== Saarland ====
* '''Dudweiler:''' - [[:de:Benutzer:Lieven|Lieven]]

==== Saxony ====
* '''Dresden''': [[:de:Benutzer:naplee12|naplee12]]

==== Saxony-Anhalt ====
* '''Halle (Saale)''': [[:de:Benutzer:Unger|Roland]]

==== Schleswig-Holstein ====

==== Thuringia ====

=== Italy ===
* '''Padova:''' [[User:Airin|Airin]]
* '''Padova:''' [[User:Stipy|Stipy]]
* '''Roma:''' [[User:Gobbler|Gobbler]]

=== Switzerland ===

==== Aargau ====
* [[:de:Benutzer:Bobo11|Bobo11]]
* [[:de:Benutzer:Rudolfvonrheinfelden|rudolf]]

==== Zürich ====
* '''Uster''': [[:de:Benutzer:Putschli|Daniel]]
* '''Zürich''': [[:de:Benutzer:Roger|Roger]]

==== Zug ====
* '''Steinhausen ZG''': [[:de:Benutzer:Mistoffeles|Mistoffeles]]

==== Schwyz ====
* '''Schwyz''': [[:de:Benutzer:Srml|Srml]]
* '''Einsiedeln''': [[:de:Benutzer:Apache|Apache]]

==== Bern ====
* '''Grindelwald''': [[:de:Benutzer:Elb|Elb]]

=== Netherlands ===

=== Poland ===
* '''Częstochowa''': [[User:Kpjas|Kpjas]] ([[User talk:Kpjas|talk]])

== See also ==
*[[voy:de:Wikivoyage:Liste der Wikivoyager nach Wohnort|Liste der Wikivoyager nach Wohnort]]
*[[voy:it:Wikivoyage:Lista dei Wikivoyager per locazione|Lista dei Wikivoyager per locazione]]

[[Category:Wikivoyage]]

Requests for comment/X!'s Edit Counter

2013-06-23T10:10:05Z

JamesA: /* Remove opt-in completely */ +1

{{rfc subpage}}
{{languages|Requests for comment/X!'s Edit Counter/Summary}}
([//meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Translate?group=page-Requests+for+comment%2FX%21%27s+Edit+Counter%2FSummary Translate!]){{:Requests for comment/X!'s Edit Counter/Summary/en}}

=== Keep opt-in ===
# It makes a difference whether detailed edit statistics can be theoretically derived from the available data or if they are easily presented without effort including graphs that display working periods. These graphs can reveal a lot about an editor and many editors would not feel comfortable with that. It could even have the consequence that editors are leaving. At the end, this is not just a legal question but also a question about what is important, i.e. to move forward to fulfill the [[:wmf:Mission statement|misson]] of the WMF projects or to turn WMF into something like some other well known Internet sites that recklessly make accumulated user data available to third parties. The WMF takes a grand stand in regard to [[PRISM]] which states: ''Freedom of speech and access to information are core Wikimedia values. These values can be compromised by surveillance: editors and readers understandably are less willing to write and inform themselves as honestly and freely. Put simply, "rights of privacy are necessary for intellectual freedom."'' Please keep these core values alive and heed them. This was an opt-in for very good reasons, not just legal ones. --[[User:AFBorchert|AFBorchert]] ([[User talk:AFBorchert|talk]]) 06:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#* PRISM is about access to private information. User contributions isn't private information, it's public information. Comparing the deriving of true facts about a person's public activities from simple statistical analysis of public information with the widespread surveillance of private communications information is rather rhetorically excessive, no? —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 09:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:J. Patrick Fischer|J. Patrick Fischer]] ([[User talk:J. Patrick Fischer|talk]]) 07:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Nach den Erfahrungen mit US-Amerikanischen Behörden und dem fehlenden Respekt vor der Privatsphäre der Menschen sollte jegliche Weitergabe von Informationen auf Freiwilligkeit beruhen. --[[User:Steschke|ST]] [[:de:Benutzer_Diskussion:Steschke|○]] 07:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# While the information is all public it is still very difficult to gather easily for the normal person and can give an awful ot away about a person. It is good practice to give someone the option to show that. I'M .... 'kinda' ok with an opt out but would prefer an opt-in. [[User:Jamesofur|Jamesofur]] ([[User talk:Jamesofur|talk]]) 07:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# There is no need for having detailed edit statistics. But, if someone want these information about himselfe or herselfe, he or she should say so. --[[User:Goldzahn|Goldzahn]] ([[User talk:Goldzahn|talk]]) 08:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:NordNordWest|NNW]] ([[User talk:NordNordWest|talk]]) 09:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Keep opt-in. - Yes, the data is already available. But there is indeed a difference between that and analysis of the data supported by WikiMedia. Plus, people are too interested in this often (but not always) trivial data. See the numerous edit counters. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 09:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Kolossos|Kolossos]] ([[User talk:Kolossos|talk]]) 09:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Heiko|Heiko]] ([[User talk:Heiko|talk]]) 09:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Orci|Orci]] ([[User talk:Orci|talk]]) 10:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Polarlys|Polarlys]] ([[User talk:Polarlys|talk]]) 10:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Millbart|Millbart]] ([[User talk:Millbart|talk]]) 10:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC) I see no reason to abandon opt-in and agree with AFBorchert's statement above.
# --[[User:Ephraim33|Ephraim33]] ([[User talk:Ephraim33|talk]]) 10:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Atamari|Atamari]] ([[User talk:Atamari|talk]]) 10:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Bubo bubo|Bubo]] [[User_Talk:Bubo bubo|容]] 10:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# There are people who take these statistics and try to turn them against you to fuel their personal attacks, it's a shame but it's like that. No need to make it easier for them. Plus, it's a big difference if somebody is spying on you in secret or if your profile is on open display for everybody. -- [[User:HvW|HvW]] ([[User talk:HvW|talk]]) 10:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# We should respect those contributors who do not wish to reveal too much information about themselves. Per AFBorchert above, it does make a difference whether information can be theoretically derived or whether information is readily analyzed in detail and publicly presented. --[[User:UV|UV]] ([[User talk:UV|talk]]) 10:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:PigeonIP|PigeonIP]] ([[User talk:PigeonIP|talk]]) 11:44, 22 June 2013 (UTC) I am with all previous editors.
# Like #7 --[[User:Morten Haan|Morten Haan]] ([[User talk:Morten Haan|talk]]) 12:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[user:Steef389|Steef]] [[de:BD:Steef389|389]] 12:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Tim.landscheidt|Tim Landscheidt]] ([[User talk:Tim.landscheidt|talk]]) 12:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Varina|Varina]] ([[User talk:Varina|talk]]) 13:06, 22 June 2013 (UTC) like AFBorchert
# [[User:XenonX3|XenonX3]] ([[User talk:XenonX3|talk]]) 13:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:PerfektesChaos|PerfektesChaos]] ([[User talk:PerfektesChaos|talk]]) 13:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#* It is a legitimated interest to know whether a user is experienced or newcomer, and focussing on main space like encyclopedic articles, or on project issues, talk, files or template programming.
#* It is none of any users business at which time of the day someone is working, in which month higher or lower efforts occur. Is he unemployed? Is he ill, cannot sleep? Easy to be misused for judgement over users, who are human beings.
#* If you want to get an impression what an unknown user is dealing with, take a glance on recent 500 contributions and retrieve a manual glimpse on edit summaries, topics, minor edits, changes with thousands of bytes, reverts, recently inactive? It is okay to get such a feeling if you are going to elect a user, but you don’t need a detailed statistical analysis.
#* It is unjustified nosiness to achieve on simple click an exhaustive personal dissection, and tools provided by wmflabs shall not support snoopery.
#* Supporters of dropping opt-in haven’t been able yet to tell us any single reason for which good purpose they ''need'' such analysis of other peoples behaviour. With regard to contents and POV a monthly schedule and (as the tool has been able a couple of years ago) evaluation by time of the day gives no insight at all.
# AFBorchert has exactly the same stance on this issue as i have. --[[User:Gnu1742|Gnu1742]] ([[User talk:Gnu1742|talk]]) 13:37, 22 June 2013 (UTC)#:
# -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 13:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# or an opt-out option. --[[User:Túrelio|Túrelio]] ([[User talk:Túrelio|talk]]) 13:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Raymond|Raymond]] ([[User talk:Raymond|talk]]) 13:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Per AFBorchert
# nicht verboten, heißt noch lange nicht, dass es gut ist ...[[Wikipedysta:Sicherlich|Sicherlich]] [[de:Benutzer Diskussion:Sicherlich|Post]] 14:09, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Elvaube|Elvaube]] ([[User talk:Elvaube|talk]]) 14:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per AFBorchert. --[[User:Sitic|Sitic]] ([[User talk:Sitic|talk]]) 15:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Dritte von links|Dritte von links]] ([[User talk:Dritte von links|talk]]) 15:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:El bes|El bes]] ([[User talk:El bes|talk]]) 15:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Too much personal data would be available to anymone.
#--[[User:Mauerquadrant|Mauerquadrant]] ([[User talk:Mauerquadrant|talk]]) 17:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per AFBorchert.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 17:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per AFBorchert -- [[User:Sozi|Sozi]] ([[User talk:Sozi|talk]]) 17:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Density|Density]] ([[User talk:Density|talk]]) 18:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Müdigkeit|Müdigkeit]] ([[User talk:Müdigkeit|talk]]) 18:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC) per AFBorchert.
# Agreee wholeheartedly with the excellent first comment by AFBorchert. Regards, [[User:Iselilja|Iselilja]] ([[User talk:Iselilja|talk]]) 20:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Radiohörer|Radiohörer]] ([[User talk:Radiohörer|talk]]) 20:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC) Some User should have his privacy. Who want to provide his complete statistics to everyone can set the opt-in, all others don't need to set it. This method there is since many years so and should be continued. An opt-out will make many questions and upsets by users, which strictly look to their privacy and won't give any information for someone. This is my opinion to this topic.
# Working on wiki is not a private area. --[[User:Mario7|Mario7]] ([[User talk:Mario7|talk]]) 21:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# "Others do it anyway" is a poor reason to do it as well. --[[User:Rudolph Buch|Rudolph Buch]] ([[User talk:Rudolph Buch|talk]]) 21:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# I see no reason to abandon opt-in and agree with AFBorchert's statement above. --[[User:Neozoon|Neozoon]] ([[User talk:Neozoon|talk]]) 22:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per AFBorchert [[User:FreeKnowledgeCreator|FreeKnowledgeCreator]] ([[User talk:FreeKnowledgeCreator|talk]]) 23:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Isderion|Isderion]] ([[User talk:Isderion|talk]]) 00:06, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# I think we should keep the opt-in, & continue to give Users the security, freedom and choice of opting-in to display their stats. And I like the clear & concise presentation of X!'s Edit Counter. [[User:JudyCS|JudyCS]] ([[User talk:JudyCS|talk]]) 02:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# I prefer this option because it gives me the freedom to choose, I don't find out sometime 3 years after creating an account that "Oh I didn't know I had the option to opt out". Also by opting in I am also confirming this is what I want to do and there is no opportunity for me to say "hey I didn't want to do that". Furthermore, I like the way it is set up now and the way it looks and if you change things then this might not be the case. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to "vote" [[User:Tattoodwaitress|Tattoodwaitress]] ([[User talk:Tattoodwaitress|talk]]) 03:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# All editors should have the option to opt-in or out. Each one should decide on its level of privacy.--[[User:Mariordo|Mariordo]] ([[User talk:Mariordo|talk]]) 03:57, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#: Allowing editors to opt-in is a simple matter of choice, a choice everyone should be allowed to exercise. [[Special:Contributions/98.211.0.95|98.211.0.95]] 04:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#::No IPs please.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 04:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Oriciu|Oriciu]] ([[User talk:Oriciu|talk]]) 05:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# It comes down to a simple matter of choice, a choice editors should always be free to make (or not to make). [[User:Coinmanj|Coinmanj]] ([[User talk:Coinmanj|talk]]) 05:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Aurora|...Aurora...]] ([[User talk:Aurora|talk]]) 05:33, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Syrcro|Syrcro]] ([[User talk:Syrcro|talk]]) 05:37, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Robby|Robby]] ([[User talk:Robby|talk]]) 05:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# per AFBorchert --[[User:Byrial|Byrial]] ([[User talk:Byrial|talk]]) 05:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:FoBe|FoBe]] ([[User talk:FoBe|talk]]) 06:08, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:9xl|9xl]] ([[User talk:9xl|talk]]) 06:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Spischot|Spischot]] ([[User talk:Spischot|talk]]) 06:50, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Ankry|Ankry]] ([[User talk:Ankry|talk]]) 06:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:MariaHausB|MariaHausB]] ([[User talk:MariaHausB|talk]]) 07:04, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:RolandUnger|RolandUnger]] ([[User talk:RolandUnger|talk]]) 07:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# there are lots of arguments to keep and I prefer the volunteers feel confortable with their work and privacy topics -- [[User:Achim Raschka|Achim Raschka]] ([[User talk:Achim Raschka|talk]]) 07:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# per AFBorchert --[[User:Church of emacs|Tobias]] [[User talk:Church of emacs|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Church of emacs|contrib]] 07:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Regarding privacy. User contributions and page history are enough. --[[User:C5st4wr6ch|C5st4wr6ch]] ([[User talk:C5st4wr6ch|talk]]) 07:47, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Jbergner|Jbergner]] ([[User talk:Jbergner|talk]]) 08:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# ----[[User:Chelin|Chelin]] ([[User talk:Chelin|talk]]) 08:20, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#[[User:MADe|MADe]] ([[User talk:MADe|talk]]) 08:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Daniel749|Daniel749]] [[User talk:Daniel749|talk]] 08:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#--►'''[[User:Cekli829|Cekli]][[User talk:Cekli829|829]]''' 08:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#[[User:Annabel|Annabel]] ([[User talk:Annabel|talk]]) 08:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:BBKurt|BBKurt]] ([[User talk:BBKurt|talk]]) 09:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC) I like the way the information is presented. Should be kept.
# --[[User:Calak|Calak]] ([[User talk:Calak|talk]]) 09:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Elop|Elop]] ([[User talk:Elop|talk]]) 09:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Gerbil|Gerbil]] ([[User talk:Gerbil|talk]]) 09:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Keep opt-in. Yes, in theory anyone can write such a tool, but in practice the situation is different. I believe WMF need not provide to much aggregated data about users unless they explicitly agree to present it to everyone. --[[User:Lanhiaze|Lanhiaze]] ([[User talk:Lanhiaze|talk]]) 09:31, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Jan eissfeldt|Jan eissfeldt]] ([[User talk:Jan eissfeldt|talk]]) 09:40, 23 June 2013 (UTC) Of course, the data can be modeled freely and it ought to. However, there is a qualitativ difference between having the data available as such and proactively digging into it for controversial purposes as a community issue. The options in question - as I recall from my conversations with De&En.WP, Commons, and WMDE folks at the time (and looking at the discussion here reconfirms the pattern) - are controversial not only as such in the mode in question but even more so due to their expanded reach through being hosted by us compared to external sites offering to undertake the same analysis. German vs. US law doesn't come into it at this stage; how we spell out "free" when it comes to our own public user logs in ways we as a community feel is appropriate to foster our shared goal is the sole relevant question for this proceding. Having diverse views on that is neither unlawful nor absurd. All things considerend, I'm with James (#4.).
# [[User:Ionutzmovie|Ionutzmovie]] ([[User talk:Ionutzmovie|talk]]) 09:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# I would prefer we keep the opt-in. This data is public and can be publicly viewed, but there is a philosophical difference between that and Wikimedia effectively saying "and here is where we profile and study our contributors' behaviour and habits in a public forum", which I don't think is entirely appropriate given our other strong emphasis on user privacy. [[User:Andrew Gray|Andrew Gray]] ([[User talk:Andrew Gray|talk]]) 09:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

=== Remove opt-in and replace with opt-out ===
# --[[User:Minihaa|Minihaa]] ([[User talk:Minihaa|talk]]) 14:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:King jakob c 2|King jakob c 2]] ([[User talk:King jakob c 2|talk]]) 19:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# - We are moving more and more towards a WP world focused more on EDITORS than CONTENT. See the policy from way back about what surveillance does to freedom. It is why the bulk of my edits have been made as an IP. I don't want to talk about me. I don't want when & what size to be part of the narrative of my work here. The information is public but other editors need to know HOW to dig for it so there's a level of WP-savvy that makes a kind of filter. Let's keep that filter as an option. Personal privacy, even the illusion of it, matters. [[User:EBY3221|EBY3221]] ([[User talk:EBY3221|talk]]) 04:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Gamliel Fishkin|Gamliel Fishkin]] ([[User talk:Gamliel Fishkin|talk]]) 07:06, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Of course opt-in should be removed but for those who do not feel comfortable with this should be offered an opt-out. --[[User:McZusatz|McZusatz]] ([[User talk:McZusatz|talk]]) 08:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:VIGNERON|VIGNERON]] * [[User talk:VIGNERON|discut.]] 09:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

=== Remove opt-in completely ===
# Not private information, and data is available on wikichecker.com anyway. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 03:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# There's no private data that I can think of. I don't see how a list of what pages I've edited is private data. Anybody could write a client-side tool to parse Special:Contributions to obtain this information... [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 04:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#::Sure. But if he comes out with these informations, he should be blocked by law or at court, as well as it should occur to Wikimedia in the comparable case. -- [[User:Sozi|Sozi]] ([[User talk:Sozi|talk]]) 18:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#:::Lol, so reading Special:Contributions is a crime. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 18:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#::::Rofl, maybe not in the states of ''Tempora'' or ''Prism''. -- [[User:Sozi|Sozi]] ([[User talk:Sozi|talk]]) 18:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# No private data here. Stats can be aggregated from Special:Contributions...why make it harder when the data is already there. [[User:Jguy|Jguy]] ([[User talk:Jguy|talk]]) 05:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Though I agree that this data could possibly seen as a kind of invasion of privacy for individuals who do not expect their edits to become public, it is also already available through other means, so I think that's a moot point. Also, edits in mainspace are encyclopedic by nature, so who cares? I can't see a negative side, although it may be upsetting to future employers to see that someone has spent most of the past year editting "Game of Thrones" articles, I guess. That said, I strongly doubt that future employers are capable of looking up this tool - they are way more likely to check out their candidate's facebook page. I have always liked this tool for looking at my own edits, and I have often checked out what others have been up to. It's a great way to orient yourself quickly on the interests of other editors, and ~I think it would be great to have for teachers keeping track of student edits. [[User:Jane023|Jane023]] ([[User talk:Jane023|talk]]) 08:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# No private data. --[[User:Holder|Holder]] ([[User talk:Holder|talk]]) 08:44, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# No private data and theres a big need for these statistics. -- [[User:Milad A380|Milad A380]] ([[User talk:Milad A380|talk]]) 09:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#: Data available elsewhere anyway. Opt-Out would be ok for me, too. --[[Special:Contributions/89.204.154.36|89.204.154.36]] 09:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#::I'm sorry. No IPs please. This is for sockpuppeting reasons.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 12:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per Snowolf --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 09:47, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# There is really no data here that cannot be found in another way already. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 13:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# No remaining need for opt-in, although I think that an opt-out feature would be fine. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 14:18, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# I'm not sure I'm against an opt-out, but there shouldn't be a reason that one should need to opt-in. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Agreed with Snowolf. --[[User:Frigotoni|'''Frigotoni''']][[:m:User_talk:Frigotoni| ...'''i'm here''']]; 14:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# see #2, #6 --[[User:Nyan Dog|Nyan]] ∗ [[User talk:Nyan Dog|Dog]] 15:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per above. [[User:LlamaAl|LlamaAl]] ([[User talk:LlamaAl|talk]]) 17:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per snowolf. '''[[User:MBisanz|MBisanz]]''' [[User talk:MBisanz|talk]] 17:45, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per snowolf. Frankly it would be trivial to build and then host a version that doesn't include an opt-in, if people wanted. [[User:Ironholds|Ironholds]] ([[User talk:Ironholds|talk]]) 18:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# This seems a rather absurd discussion. This tool already exists on a non-WMF server without any option for participation, using freely available data feeds from the WMF. It seems rather silly to say that the publicly available feeds coming from the WMF cannot be analysed on WMF servers by WMF participants, when it's already been analysed on non-WMF servers. I'd rather have it here. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 18:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#Absolutely no private information is used here, so there is no need for a specific opt-in. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|Talk]]) 19:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#[[User:Boogerpatrol|Boogerpatrol]] ([[User talk:Boogerpatrol|talk]]) 20:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per Snowolf--[[User:Steinsplitter|Steinsplitter]] ([[User talk:Steinsplitter|talk]]) 20:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per #1 and #2. There's nothing private here. [[User:ALH|ALH]] ([[User talk:ALH|talk]]) 20:39, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# as on #1 and #2. It's a shame people are using Wikimedia editing statistics for personal attacks. But as this data is already publicly available, I don't quite see the problem.--[[User:Paracel63|Paracel63]] ([[User talk:Paracel63|talk]]) 21:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per #1, #2, and 6; though were a user to be indefinitely blocked or banned completely, opt-out would be fine. [[User:Epicgenius|Epicgenius]] ([[User talk:Epicgenius|talk]]) 21:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#Uneeded as server is moved outside of German jurisdiction which prompted its inclusion. -- [[User:とある白い猫|とある白い猫]] [[User talk:とある白い猫|chi?]] 21:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
#Data on editors' contributions ''should'' be widely available to combat POV pushing and similar problematic behaviour. There is no privacy issue as contributions are public record. This falls squarely in line with the foundations's privacy policy which reads: ''User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users edited and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.'' [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 22:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# per Snowolf. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 22:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Alan|Alan]] ([[User talk:Alan|talk]]) 23:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# Not private information. [[User:S.Örvarr.S|Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson]] ([[User talk:S.Örvarr.S|talk]]) 23:15, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# There is no private information, the information can already be compiled (albeit very monotonously) via other means, and this information is already available on WikiChecker. There really is no reason to restrict everyone from being able to see all of these statistics, and it can be very helpful to users. [[User:Inks.LWC|Inks.LWC]] ([[User talk:Inks.LWC|talk]]) 23:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
# As others have said, anybody can come in and compile such information (with a little effort, of course) and it's essentially public information. [[User:APerson241|APerson241]] ([[User talk:APerson241|talk]]) 01:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# This only gives public data, so there shouldn't be a problem, especially since other users could easily write a script to get and parse API content or get an account on Toolserver or Labs and query the database for similar info. [[User:Hazard-SJ| Hazard-SJ ]][[User talk:Hazard-SJ| ✈ ]] 02:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per Snowolf. —'''[[User:M.O.X|James]] [[User talk:M.O.X|(talk)]]''' 03:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Per Snowolf and Rschen, as this information is already out there, and we're making it a lot more complicated in order to find something that some person could easily figure out on their own. [[User:Ktr101|Kevin Rutherford]] ([[User talk:Ktr101|talk]]) 03:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#Per Snowolf. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 05:21, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#--[[User:Arjunaraoc|Arjunaraoc]] ([[User talk:Arjunaraoc|talk]]) 05:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#--[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 05:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#I've always found this ridiculous, and I even doubt that German law really required this since storing of contribution data has always been in our privacy policy, and the edit counter is just a more readable aggregation. If we can get rid of it, that's good. [[User:Darkweasel94|Darkweasel94]] ([[User talk:Darkweasel94|talk]]) 05:41, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Snowolf has it. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 06:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Denying a useful tool from everyone to prevent a tiny number of abuses is a community antipattern. Diff links to your edits can be used to make personal attacks against you -- is that a good enough reason to disable diff linking? Obviously not. I don't see why it would be different with showing aggregate edit data. --[[User:Tgr|Tgr]] ([[User talk:Tgr|talk]]) 06:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Texaner|Texaner]] ([[User talk:Texaner|talk]]) 06:50, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --sasha ([[User:Krassotkin|krassotkin]]) 06:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# As I pointed out during the discussion on English Wikipedia, this is not private data. It's public data. Opt-in gives people a false sense of security: if only they decide to not opt-in, then they think that this information somehow won't be released. But it is released, and anyone can make a tool that compiles this information, whether it is hosted on Wikimedia servers or not. I think security and privacy are good and worth preserving: but this isn't either. It's ''placebo'' privacy. It gives one the illusion of privacy. If people are uncomfortable with the publication of aggregate statistics about their edits being published, then they should probably not be making said edits. The tool is also open source: there's nothing stopping another Tool Labs user from releasing a version on Tool Labs that ignores the opt-out. —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 07:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#'''Strong support'''. The information is already public and most of us can gather and collate it from other tool server devices, editor contribs, and page histories, etc. The sooner the edit stats without opt-in become available as standard - as approved by ''clear consensus'' on the en.Wiki RfC [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#X!'s Edit en:Counter|here]] - it will make the work of RfA /RfB/ARCOM/Stewarship, voters, SPI researchers, the granting of minor user rights, and many more meta workers much easier. --[[User:Kudpung|Kudpung]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 07:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# [[User:Laszlovszky András|Laszlovszky András]] ([[User talk:Laszlovszky András|talk]]) 07:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# No private data and no need to opt in or out..--[[User:Rsmn|Rsmn]] ([[User talk:Rsmn|talk]]) 07:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# The information is already there, the edit counter doesn't really give information that isn't available by other means, it just makes that information more accessible. [[User:Sabbut|Sabbut]] ([[User talk:Sabbut|talk]]) 07:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#Privacy is an illusion in this case. [[Special:Contributions/210.79.21.2|210.79.21.2]] 07:31, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# Most contributions are visible to everyone, just like block logs and AfD statistics. There's no difference. [[User:Toccata quarta|Toccata quarta]] ([[User talk:Toccata quarta|talk]]) 08:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# --[[User:Pagony|Pagony]] ([[User talk:Pagony|talk]]) 09:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
#{{support}} The info is already public. Thanks for asking, because the programmer could have done without having to ask.[[User:Alhen|Alhen]] ([[User talk:Alhen|talk]]) 09:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# I agree that the data are not private (and, correspondingly, there is pretty nothing to protect by opt-in). --[[User:Andiorahn|Andiorahn]] ([[User talk:Andiorahn|talk]]) 09:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
# The information isn't private, confidential or related to one's identity. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 10:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

=== Discussion ===
*I should note that this only affects the version hosted on Wikimedia Labs, and not the Toolserver version which is bound by the TOS of Toolserver and is at the moment still the only version that supports all Wikimedia Wikis. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 02:51, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:Yes. That is correct. Once labs is fully setup, the toolserver version will be disabled.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 02:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::I very much hope that that won't be the case, at least until we have some track record of labs stability now that they're getting more and more tools. There is no drawback to redundancy, especially when Wikimedia Labs for access to the Wikimedia Clusters' db is a very new feature with as of yet no track record in regards to stability. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 04:38, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::Seconded. Nothing wrong with a little bit of redundancy. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 07:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:::Unfortunately, at some point in 2014, WMDE will discontinue the toolserver so that staying is no option. '''[[User:Addshore|·addshore·]]''' [[User_talk:Addshore|talk to me!]] 09:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*I posted a small notice at the [[:de:WP:K#Abstimmung über X!s Beitragszähler|''Kurier'']] about this RFC as this affects all editors. --[[User:AFBorchert|AFBorchert]] ([[User talk:AFBorchert|talk]]) 07:20, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
* Hmmmm, I'm not sure a vote on Meta-Wiki has the ability to control this. Can't I just write my own tool and do whatever I want? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 15:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:yes it does. I have access to these tools and can modify them. I started the RfC and I can determine the outcome. So I'm giving the community a chance to decide.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 17:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::I do not understand your answer. What are you saying yes to? [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 18:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:::Yes as in, that this discussion on meta will influence the outcome of the tool. MZMcBride stated that a discussion will not have the power to change the tool. Since I started the discussion, and because I am now the lead maintainer, I simply stated that this discussion can change the tool, if consensus for this change is established.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 19:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::::Oh. Well, MZM is correct. This discussion doesn't change the tool. The only possible influence it has is in what version of the tool is hosted on WMFLabs. The tool already exists. Various forms of it already exist on non-WMF servers, and have no opt-in/opt-out. I think you're being disingenuous by completely failing to mention that ALL of the data is already publicly available and that WMF users not participating in the WMFLabs version means only that the info isn't on Labs. I believe there is a genuine misunderstanding, and that most people who are voting to keep the opt-in believe that means their information won't be accessible through the publicly available data. They are wrong. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 19:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:::::I thought that was implied. I didn't figure that people believed that the tool was displaying private information. From what I gathered, people, didn't appreciate stats like that being compiled on the spot, and so conveniently.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 19:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::::::[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment%2FX!%27s_Edit_Counter&diff=5593403&oldid=5593402] and I am committed to do so. -- [[User:Sozi|Sozi]] ([[User talk:Sozi|talk]]) 19:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:::::::Making legal threats can and will lead to a block. Threatening to convict me of a crime, will accomplish nothing.—[[en:User:Cyberpower678|cyberpower]] [[en:User talk:Cyberpower678|Chat]]Hello! 19:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*::::::::Lol, I earn my money as graphic designer, not as Wikimedian. If the EC tangles with Google, Amazon, Microsoft et al, Wikimedia will be a minor opponent. Not you. You are not the problem. -- [[User:Sozi|Sozi]] ([[User talk:Sozi|talk]]) 20:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
*:::::::::You seem to be making legal threats under the strange illusion that this discussion is about something which is illegal, namely the release of personal information of Wikimedians. It isn't. It's about aggregation of public information in a usable form. Which is both legal and which there are a wide variety of companies—many in the EU—doing without issue. Making legal threats during Wikimedia community discussions is generally bad; making absurd legal threats with no basis in reality just ends up making you look like an utter fool. —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 06:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

*Don't know if this is germane to the discussion. The edit counter has always been appreciated. What I don't quite understand is why a user's edit count isn't handled by 'Contributions'. When you click on contributions it shows the latest edits, page-name/link where the edit was made, size of the edit, time and date of the edit, along with the edit summary. All these details come up instantly, never a replication lag, so why can't this same system simply keep track of the number of the edit involved? Seems it would lighten the work load for this edit counter which frequently is subject to replication lag. -- [[Special:Contributions/98.119.101.103|98.119.101.103]] 21:14, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
:*I'd welcome such a solution as well.--[[User:Paracel63|Paracel63]] ([[User talk:Paracel63|talk]]) 21:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
:*Because it helps identify long term abuse and also meat & sock puppetry. -- [[User:とある白い猫|とある白い猫]] [[User talk:とある白い猫|chi?]] 21:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
:::How does an edit counter, with its pie chart, do that? Isn't IP inquiries used to stay on top of sock activity? -- [[User:Gwillhickers|Gwillhickers]] ([[User talk:Gwillhickers|talk]]) 05:19, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-05T12:45:52Z

JamesA: /* Deadline shift - end of August */ +cmt

==Purpose of page; pending logo selection==
The Wikimedia Foundation has been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, but were not expecting to be called upon to develop one so quickly. In light of the recent discovery that the current Wikivoyage logo is too similar to an existing logo (see Foundation statement [[Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]]), we are bringing this before you with less time than we had hoped to discuss and improve the plan. <s>I apologize for this short notice, but it's necessary to develop a working process and to select a new logo for Wikivoyage within two months. Accordingly, I hope that we can iron out any issues with this proposed process (based heavily on past contests and on the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons) with a brief consultation to allow plenty of time for the important work of creating and selecting a usable logo for Wikivoyage. The proposed timeline for that is, of course, on the main page.</s>'''Edited to add: Please see [[#Deadline shift - end of August]] for my happy update here.'''

Your thoughts are needed and very much welcome - the purpose here is to try to encourage community creativity and input from as broad a range of community members as possible, while also allowing necessary time for legal review to prevent issues of the sort we are encountering now from occurring again. This process is based heavily on past logo contests and the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons.

With all that in mind, please share your questions, comments and suggestions. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 16:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

:Ugh, again we don't get to choose our own procedure? Our project, at least the English version, doesn't allow voting, because it discourages people from making persuasive, thoughtful arguments when they can affect the decisions by saying "support" or "oppose." Moreover, we wanted to have a bit more local control over the selection, because we felt overwhelmed by Wikimedians with minimal familiarity with our background, culture, processes, and mission. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 16:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::Isn't the discussion during the submission period a good place to make persuasive, thoughtful arguments (before the voting is open), and then again, after the three finalists are selected and discussed? –[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::I think the impending vote will discourage thoughtful discussion prior to the vote. The discussion process will become a fight, not an attempt to move towards consensus. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::Pt: doesn't allow voting either, and I concur with Peter's comments. Though there are lots of good creative people out there, I think we would like active Wikivoyagers to have a little more weight in the decision than the random people who may have barely even visited and who may not understand what we are all about. And as an aside, I wonder why we would need to wait 10 more days to open submission - why not just start now and make the submission period longer? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 17:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::This is not intended to be the "Wikivoyage logo contest procedure", but simply the "logo contest procedure" - a standardized way of reaching community logos for any and every project of the Wikimedia community. :) It just happens that Wikivoyage would be first to use it, due to the legal issues with the existing logo. It is intended to be as inclusive as possible simply because that's our ideal. There's nothing at all to prevent opening submissions sooner, no matter the process we wind up with, as long as it is understood that the submission rules are set by the legal department so they must apply regardless of the rest of the procedure. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 17:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::I would love to change the name of this too, for the same reasons of wanting this to be about working together, not competing. How about selection procedure, not contest procedure? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I agree with all of the above. This does seem a rather long-winded process and voting isn't really the WV way. Consensus and specific criticisms and recommendations would be, in my view a simpler, quicker and generally preferable system. A good example of this is the contrast between new Main Page discussions on en:WV en:WP. Whilst admittedly a much bigger wiki, WP has had many year-long failed attempts to create a new Main Page, whilst we took a couple of months to form a design between us; working together.--[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::The process was built to allow lots of time for legal review and plenty of time for community consultation. In terms of voting, it's the same language used [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|in the last process]]. :) However, again, this isn't a process created specifically and solely for Wikivoyage. We hoped to arrive at a process for all logo selections that would permit participation by as many Wikimedians as possible, since in many cases there will be wide interest in identifying marks. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Sorry if that came across as a little brusk - I absolutely understand that we want to make sure this logo lasts more than a few months! :) We do want to be open with this, but then again, I agree with the others that we don't want this to be dominated by people who have never set foot in WV before. Thanks for all your work with this! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I understand. :) It makes total sense to me that you want to make sure that the people who work on and care about Wikivoyage wind up with a logo that reflects and represents their work properly. My current plan with whatever process we wind up with is to make sure that this is well-broadcast on Wikivoyage. I've already spoken to James Alexander about a targeted central notice on all of the Wikivoyage projects whenever the process does officially start, to help make sure that awareness there is high. Nobody wants a logo that makes the WV editors unhappy. And hopefully if there are potential legal issues, we will catch them in advance this time - that's a major goal of the process. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 22:38, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::That would be great, thanks very much! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
We need to be very careful to separate this document, which is an attempt to set up a standardized logo-contest procedure, from the upcoming effort to select a new logo for Wikivoyage. The two are connected, I believe, only insofar as the upcoming Wikivoyage change is the first opportunity to use the new procedure. I would be surprised if the WMF required us to follow the procedure outlined here if we decided we wanted to do it differently. I would suggest that we discuss specifics for Wikivoyage's process in some other location (perhaps [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]], and leave this page for discussing the generic process and refinements thereto. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 17:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::We would actually rather that you follow this process, LtPowers. There are a number of reasons for it: first, a great deal of energy has gone into designing a process that is legally compliant and ensures that all the various markers (legal, trademark, merch, etc) are hit. Second, it's like most open-source projects... when you run off to do your own thing, then the upstream original doesn't get the benefits of your refinements. We'd far prefer that you discuss any proposed changes here, so that the standardized process can get the value of your refinements as well. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 21:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Well then maybe WMF should identify which parts of the process are inviolable. Is it possible for us to set up a process without voting? That is, to make the standard process voting-optional? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Personally, I think it's important to have clarity on any process prior to its implementation. I guess my question would be what if we get submission participation like we had [[Logo_contest|here]]? How would that be manageable? I think it's worth opening up that conversation. How would the submission period and refinement be segregated from consensus choice between options? (The current proposal was intended in part to avoid the issues that were discussed [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Voting_open.3F|here]].) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]])

I concur with the other Wikivoyagers here. I'm sorry, but the last "contest" was a disaster that was far biased towards Wikimedians due to its publicity there. Wikivoyagers were hardly represented due to the migration mess our community was in at the time and the fact we don't have as many contributors. I could not, under any circumstances, accept "votes" from users who did not have a certain number of edits on '''Wikivoyage''' and have edited there for a certain amount of time. As others have said, voting is also prohibited at Wikivoyage. If we were to only allow Wikivoyagers to provide input, a consensus discussion would probably take less time and less effort due to the tight-knit nature of our community. The Wikimedia Foundation has no right to force such a process upon us; their role is to facilitate, not to overrule community processes. I understand there are legal concerns, and that's fine for the WMF legal department to have time to rule out some logos. But this needs to be a ''Wikivoyage'' process. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:Again, this is not a "Wikivoyage" process under discussion, but a process for all logo selection. Wikivoyage would just be the first to utilize the process, given the unfortunate issue with its logo that requires its quick replacement. Personally, I think inclusiveness is one of the Wikimedia movement's core values and one of its greatest strengths - while it makes sense to me to limit voting to those with registered accounts before the process to avoid gaming the system, I'm afraid I don't understand why you think that a contributor to, say, Commons - perhaps one who is ''submitting'' a design for the logo - might not have good input about design aesthetics? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 02:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::If we're talking about providing input, then everyone should be able to voice their opinion. But if voting is really going to be forced down our throat, only Wikivoyagers should be allowed to participate in such a vote, basing their vote on the general comments provided by all of the Wikimedia movement. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:: Let me give you an example. In the Russian Wikivoyage, at some point shortly before migration we decided to vote for the name of the project in Russian. A trusted user was asked to manage the vote, and an announcement was made in the Russian Wikipedia. A turnout was reasonobly high, and after two rounds the current name (Викигид) was chosen. However, most of the voters who have chosen this option, never edited Wikivoyage before or after, they just had their opinion but no interest in the project. Most of the active Wikivoyage participants who turned out preferred another version, and in the end of the day we were imposed, by a completely transparent and democratic procedure, to use a name we had no interest in. Well, it is not such a big deal, and I think by now we got accustomed to it, but I believe this is an example of a situation my colleagues have in mind.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 06:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Is it possible for Wikivoyage to follow the process, but to do it on Wikivoyage pages? This would encourage participation by Wikivoyage contributors. As a general point, I think that Meta should only be used for such matters for new projects, and the projects pages should be used for established projects. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 10:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::The purpose of this conversation is to refine the process so that it works best for us all. :) It's already been altered based on feedback here, and retitled. Some elements (like the submission rules and a WMF review period of finalists) are requirements; some are based on previous processes. Others (like giving away lapel pins) are just things that seemed like they could be nice. I won't reiterate what I said above about the purpose of the conversation, but I will emphasize that what we're hoping to do here is open up conversation about what works in this proposal and what needs to be changed and why. This is why I asked Lt. Powers the questions I did above, because I think those are important things to think about if voting is going to be optional in the process. The place where the contest is held is certainly open for discussion, too - but it does raise some questions for me, personally. Is there a Wikivoyage location that is central to all Wikivoyagers and all languages? If not, where would it be hosted? On the German version, which is the oldest? (If only we had cross-wiki watchlists. :/) If it were hosted on Wikivoyage, would people feel more comfortable that it will reflect the values of Wikivoyagers? I really do understand that concern, but before we close off participation in a process to any Wikimedians would hope we can explore it fully. Openness is one of our core values, and the best designer we have may be a Wikispecies contributor we don't know yet who would unveil his or her brilliance during the logo selection process. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Personally, I don't really have any qualms with non-Voyagers submitting their proposals or even commenting on them, but I think a major fear here is that, if we must have a vote, it will be swamped by people who never have and never will edit Wikivoyage (like the last contest) and, as such won't really reflect our values, ethos, direction, style or anything else. I think if we do have to have a vote, a lot of people would be happier if they knew that (and this might be somewhat controversial) either only people from WV could vote (could it be held internally?) or if votes were weighted differently depending on a user's previous contributions. I understand that this might seem a little anti-democratic, but what I'm suggesting is simply limiting voting to the site's constituents. There are people on Wikivoyage who have followed it through all of its transformations over many years and have invested heavily in its content (I don't include myself in that number). To me, it seems a little unfair that the vote of a Wikipedia user who has edited one word in an article about bananas should have the same clout.
:::::I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable - I'm certainly not trying to be! I do understand that an operation such as this probably takes an awful lot of effort and organisation and I thank you for that. There are so many people on here and I'm sure it's seldom easy to keep everyone happy. It's just, as Peter says below, we see this as a good opportunity to put right the wrongs (as we see them) of the last contest. Thanks for all your hard work and taking the time to respond to our concerns. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::Thank ''you'' for sharing your concerns. :) While one of the major factors in developing this was looking at issues that have been raised in previous logo selection processes (for instance, [[User:JamesA]] raised some very good points about potential bias in the voting process [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Voting_open.3F|here]] that the clear separation of submission period from voting round was meant to help resolve; the suggested randomization of image display was also meant to help avoid bias by prioritizing simply what comes first), hearing the wrongs you saw in the last contest is very helpful, as is talking about how to address them. It sounds like you think it might be better to open submission and discussion period to anyone, but leave selection (by whatever means) to editors in the project impacted? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks again for your prompt response! Yeah, that would sound like a good solution to me: would it be possible to run the process in that (or a similar) way? :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I think that's probably within consensus to determine. While I hope that people will always think carefully about how best to balance inclusiveness and fair representation, I don't think that's off the table. :) The way I read it, for example, I think that voting for Russian ArbCom is limited to Russian Wikipedians. On the other hand, Wikidata seems to have done okay with its [[Wikidata/Logo voting|inclusive selection process]] (at least, I guess; I've not heard of any issues :D). I would really hope to encourage people to discuss pros and cons before deciding that limited participation is the best approach. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 01:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Of course. I certainly can't speak for the community, but it's nice to have this option open to us. Thanks again! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 09:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Yes for Wikidata this inclusive process was fine. However I'd argue that this case is different from WikiVoyage insofar that Wikidata did not have an existing community and that it is a project that is specifically supposed to serve all Wikimedia projects. So all of them having a say seemed sensible. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 10:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::Both of those seem like a useful distinctions between Wikidata and Wikivoyage to me: The lack of a preexisting Wikidata community and the meta-nature of that project. I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who are creating and editing the content and will see the logo every day. The precise mechanisms for giving Wikivoyage users more of a say are obviously open to discussion, but I would like to see the principle accepted. In terms of where to have the vote (if there is to indeed be a vote, and not a decision by consensus): During the migration of Wikivoyage to the WMF, there was a General Wikivoyage board, in addition to specific-language boards. Perhaps that board could be revived for the purpose of this vote. I don't know how complicated that would be, as I am not a computer programmer. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 11:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::Absolutely! I can understand that, for general practice, it's worthwhile keeping logo selections open to all as, in most cases, the logo is for a new project and thus there isn't yet a fully fledged community to make that decision. Wikivoyage is different (as has been noted) because we already have a living, breathing community. If the General Wikivoyage Board could be resurrected that sounds like a good place to vote or come to a consensus. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 11:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::I'll poke about and see what I can find out about that. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 12:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks! That would be great! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 13:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Much appreciated, Maggie. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 13:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
{{unindent}} Can somebody tell me the URL of this Wikivoyage general board? So far, I've discovered confusion about this. I spoke to one person who thought it was not a WMF page, which would mean I can't do anything about it myself. Knowing exactly where it was would be very helpful! :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:The General section was not imported during the migration to the WMF, but can be found in its preserved state [http://general.wikivoyage-old.org/general/Main_Page here]. Personally, I'm not totally convinced we need it, and it might create confusion in terms of duplicating the purpose of Meta for interlingual discussion coordination. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::Maybe it would be better then to just hold it either on here on in one particular language version. With enough pointers it shouldn't be a real problem wherever it's held. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Just as a note: We already plan (there was a request somewhere else I believe in this discussion) to have central notice banners on the Wikivoyage sites (and only the wikivoyage sites) to point to the vote )and the submission area if desired ) so we could definitely point to wherever it happened with those and with obvious TP posts. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC) I realized after writing that I don't actually know if Wikivoyage uses TP or anything else as a "Travelers' pub" short name. 

::: “I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who […] will see the logo every day.” ([http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALogo_selection_procedure&diff=5533026&oldid=5532911 Ikan Kekek]) — and so will the readers. I think it wouldn’t be sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say on matters of design and aesthetics; on the other hand, they should have all the say on the defining characteristics of Wikivoyage (to be conveyed in the logo). — [[User:Linus Wolf|Linus]] ([[User talk:Linus Wolf|disk]]) 22:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::If we implement the system suggested above, all users of all wikis will be able to comment on matters of style and will be able to submit logos as well. It is the final decision that would be made by Wikivoyage users (as Ikan Kekek said) and it seems only fair that the group that generates the site's content chooses the symbol under which it is published. We're certainly not trying to make people feel excluded; just ensuring that the community can choose a logo with which at least the majority of its members are comfortable. When the process does begin I'm sure your comments and input would be appreciated. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 23:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, after some discussions with other older Wikivoyagers, I'm not sure whether barring all non-WV users outright is appropriate. We are still a fairly small-ish community, and probably wouldn't engage many voters as every Wikivoyager is not going to bother to vote. The other weighted vote idea may work better, or choosing through consensus. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:How many active WV users are there (in all languages)? [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 09:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for the link to the board, Peter. We wouldn't be able to resurrect that ourselves, since it wasn't a WMF website, but of course we could recreate it. That said, it might be just as good to host the process on Meta whether voting/selection is restricted to community members of the project are not. From what JamesA says, though, it may be better to look at alternatives to be sure that there's enough participation. Weighting votes in contests like this one where there is naturally stronger investment in one community (Wikivoyagers) might work. If eliminating voting is preferred (or offering that option in the process, since some larger logo selection processes might not work that way), I think it's probably a good idea to start talking about what the alternative would look like. Who would judge consensus, and on what would it be based? (On English Wikipedia - the project where I do most of my volunteering - consensus is judged by strength of arguments weighed against policies. If some arguments for logos are stronger than others, it would probably be a good idea to offer some guidance as to what factors weigh. :)) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 11:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::Tony, unfortunately I don't have any exact stats. But anecdotally, I've noticed there has been a recent downtrend in the number of very active users that you regularly see on the Recent Changes. My watchlist of discussions is also usually quite empty, suggesting less participation and more stalling in discussions. I presume many Wikivoyagers might simply be travelling now, seeing as it's our speciality!
::Thanks for your comments, Maggie. Your question over who would judge consensus is a good one, and it makes me think that it may not work either! I guess when we suggested a consensus method, we had hoped that all the participants would somehow come to an accepted compromise that everyone could be happy about; but we all know wikis don't always work like that. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 13:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::I think consensus would only work if it were limited to the WV community alone: not because everyone else is particularly disagreeable, but because it would limit the number of people involved. I certainly don't think we'd want our consensus judged by a committee. If people are of the opinion that Wikivoyagers alone would not make the vote quorate perhaps weighted voting is the way to go, although it is a more complicated step. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::: Realistically I think the current proposal of having a comment period followed by a vote will be the only workable solution. That exact same procedure was followed when the first logo was selected back in 2005 - [[:voy:Wikivoyage:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) logo contest]]. Consensus is great, but it's much tougher to gain consensus with a large group when the decision being made has a strong subjective element, so in this case I think the approach of having a comment period followed by a vote is the best option for actually getting a logo selected. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 17:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::I think weighted voting to favor the project involved (Wikivoyage this time) is probably doable, if that's what people want. The challenge would be in figuring out how to weight it - the current proposal has a point system of 3 (for first choice), 2 (for second), and 1 (for third). What would a fair weighting be for registered Wikivoyagers? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 17:54, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::1 for non-Wikivoyagers, 2 for Wikivoyagers and 27 for me. ;) Quite seriously though, a good way to do it (to my mind) would be to get a rough estimate of how many people from each group will vote and then multiply the Wikivoyage user figure so that the numbers are roughly equal.
::::::An interesting question is going to be 'what constitutes a Wikivoyager?' Are we going to require a certain edit count or is having an account enough? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::That's negotiable, certainly, but often simply a question of having an account before the date of announcement (or maybe in this unusual case before the date of announcement of the process discussion?). I'm not sure how we'd be able to poll how many people from each group will vote in advance. :/ We might have voters who show up only for the final round, for instance, or who don't hear about this until just before closure. What kind of division did you see in the last vote? Do you think a 2 for 1 ratio (that is, a Wikivoyager's top choice gets 6 pts rather than 3) would be a good boost? (It's going to be fun encoding all this in recommended practice. :D) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 10:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

So my current feeling on this topic is thus: The standard procedure, in order to accommodate the variety of projects the WMF hosts now and in the future, must be flexible to the needs of each project. As such, I would recommend that a couple of points be added that can provide a hardpoint onto which each project's customizations can be bolted.

First, there needs to be a step before the Submission Round (currently step 1) in which the community (however it's defined) determines the criteria for the logo. If the community wants a logo that sets them apart from, or that harmonizes with, other logos, that should be specified in this new step. The community may also want to make sure a particular motif is included, or avoided; same with a color scheme. All these things are necessary to determine ''before'' people start submitting logos!

Second, the steps can specify that straight-up voting, however it's conducted, is only one method of arriving at a consensus choice of logo. The goal is to choose a logo that finds an agreeable consensus within the community -- ''not'' simply to have a majority-rules election. The voting process is one way of reaching that consensus, but it's not the only way.

-- [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 20:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

:Adding points about customization is a good idea, and I think flexibility to the needs of the project is a good consideration. In terms of a pre-process rule-defining, how would you conduct that? Simple consensus of participants of the involved discussion? How would we prevent that becoming so specific that logo submitters don't have the opportunity to demonstrate the community wrong? :) That is, if the community says, "We want our logo to be purple with a flower," and a designer says, "Maybe you'd like this incredibly striking blue bird," should the designer be allowed to present that and try to change the community's mind? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 10:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

==Contest v. Process==
Per feedback above, I've moved this form "Logo contest procedure" to "Logo selection procedure." I've modified the language internally accordingly. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

== Simplified header ==
I moved the fearlang in the header to [[logo]] (which is linked from it), and balanced it with some lovelang reminding people why we desire shared identity and purpose in the first place. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  02:04, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Requests for comment → 30 days ==

Hi. It's standard practice for something like this to have (at least) thirty days of discussion. This is typical of any [[RFC|request for comment]]s (RFC) here on Meta-Wiki or on other wikis, as far as I know. I don't see any reason to deviate from this here. The June 10 deadline seems arbitrary and movable. As I see it, there are two options:

# push back the timeline of selecting a Wikivoyage logo; or
# not use this procedure for the selection of a new Wikivoyage logo.

We absolutely should not feel rushed into accepting a procedure that the community has not explicitly endorsed. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:06, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Is there any attribution for this document? The page history is useless.

:Is there something wrong with the page history? It looks fine to me. :/

:The deadline for the new logo is a legal imposition, I'm afraid. It would be great if we had more time, but we don't. We ''do'', of course, have the old process, [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|begun here]], which featured a submission period followed by voting, refinement and further voting, like the proposal here. The ''biggest'' difference here, of course, is the legal review that might help avoid this issue occurring again. (Also some of the specific points about how refinement and voting occur.) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:: Well, if the deadline for selecting a new Wikivoyage logo can't be moved, I don't see how this procedure can be used. Ten days is not enough time to decide something of this nature, particularly with festering concerns about how to appropriately balance the weight of Wikimedian contributors vs. the weight of people directly involved in a project (in this case, Wikivoyage contributors).
:: Regarding attribution, did you write this entire page in a single edit? My reading of the page history is that this page was created in a single edit (followed by two edits by you to mark it for translation). If you wrote this entire page in a single edit, it's both incredibly impressive and wildly uncharacteristic of your editing style. ;-) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::: Maggie, no two logo contests have been held the same way :) So I recommend simply proposing a specific process for this contest, similar to the selection procedure discussed in this RfC. No need to have an RfC for that - just get some of the core WV community members to help organize or sign off on this contest, including those who organized the last contest and those who have recently been thinking about logos. The RfC about how to do this in the future can proceed in parallel. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  03:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::@MzMcBride: No, of course not. :) I mentioned in the note in which I announced it that we had been working on it with the idea of launching it later. It's a collaborative document - some of it is mine, some of it was written by other people. Attribution doesn't require incremental edits or individual edits, of course. A work of joint authorship can be licensed by ''any'' of its contributors. :) (From what the laywers tell me, the logo ''must'' be replaced by the end of July.)

::::@SJ, we are proposing this process be used for ''this'' logo contest as well as others. :) It includes the elements of the last contest, as I mentioned above - submission and discussion, voting, redesign & voting - but also allows for legal review and provides clarity as to what submission means and how the process works. Certainly, the particulars are open for discussion, but the fact remains that we have to have ''some'' process in place quickly for selecting a Wikivoyage logo - we don't have the 30 days MzMcBride would like to figure that out, unless we have a ''very'' narrow window for selection :/ Philippe has explained above why LCA believes that a standardized approach is a good idea. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::: Attribution certainly doesn't require individual edits, no. But when the community is evaluating a document like this, it can be helpful to know its origins. Given the copyright work you do, I would think you would understand better than most what value a trail of edits can have when evaluating a work. (I'm not suggesting that there's any copyright issue here, of course. Just noting that we all value descriptive page histories.)
::::: If the deadline must be the end of July (which seems terribly arbitrary, but all right...), then this would just be the "Wikivoyage logo selection procedure", then. Easy enough to move the page around and solicit feedback from the affected communities. Presenting a document like this (from a black box) and giving the community ten days to decide whether to implement this as global policy doesn't seem like it's going to work. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 04:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::As I said, this is not a Wikivoyage logo selection procedure proposal. It's a logo selection procedure proposal; Wikivoyage would simply be the first to use it. I agree that the short lead time is not good. Nobody intended this to go out in this way, but the legal problem with the Wikivoyage logo complicated everything. The legal team knows that the community needs time and negotiated with the WTO for what we have. Cease & desists are generally immediate, as you probably know. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Why not take the runner-up of the first selection process? ==

Why we need a new selection process. KISS rules, let's take the runner-up from the first selection process. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 07:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:As has been mentioned by active Wikivoyagers numerous times above, the last process was very Wikimedian-biased and the views of Wikivoyagers were barely considered. We were considering a new logo for our project in a few months time even before this legal predicament emerged. I think the design of the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Option_4_Compass_Rose_with_Globe|runner-up]] that you suggest just goes to prove how meta-biased the last vote was... [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 11:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::The design of the runner-up seems to have been produced by [http://ru.wikivoyage.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F:%D0%92%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4/Digr a very active and long-standing Wikivoyager]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:::The runner up should be considered again, naturally (its close similarity to the Meta logo was the objection raised by people who didn't support it last time). But we discussed having another go at creating the best possible logo back then anyway, so why not do another round of submissions. We're rushed once again, but we at least have the ''potential'' to do things better this time. That potential might be (or looks likely to be?) squandered if this becomes more about creating a one-size-fits-all process for choosing logos, that isn't at all tailored to the particulars of Wikivoyage, its culture, and its size. We're painfully aware of what went wrong in the last selection process (not just for the icon), which regularly produced the stalest, safest, least exciting, and least "Wikivoyagey" results possible--a really stark contrast with all the exciting aesthetic work we've done locally since, all consensually, professionally, cordially, and crucially without voting.

:::We would prefer/expected to use the lessons learned last time. But it's looking like this has all been taken out of our hands. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::Peter, I can understand your concerns, but as I noted above this is a conversation in advance of the logo selection procedure. It would be very different if we had announced the problem and simultaneously said, "We're doing a new logo selection, and we're doing it like this." That's not what this is about. :) We're here to collaborate. Philippe explained above why LCA would prefer standardization - and you actually highlight its necessity here, since in terms of the movement it makes sense for you to share what you've learned from what went wrong and help build a process that works for everyone - but that doesn't mean any system we build can't be ''flexible'' to the needs of the situation. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::That contributor has done some great work on both the en: and ru: projects, but I was taking issue with the similar design and the large amount of support despite reservations being mentioned many times. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

== Some input from the Wikidata logo selection ==

Not too long ago we've done this whole thing for the Wikidata logo. The one important take-away for me was that it would have been a very good idea to give a recommendation for the licensing, especially when uploaded to Commons. People were very confused about what is ok and what is not - especially given the requirement to give a license to the Foundation. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 15:07, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

: I think that is a very important point for a travel site. There is the possibility of the Wikivoyage logo being misused for commercial purposes if it is not copyright from the start. The maximum protection must be available to stop hotels displaying our logo in their window to imply approval. Could all uploads of logo drafts be made WMF copyright. After the selection is over any logos that are not similar to the final choice could be realeased as copyleft. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::I'd be keen to hear some clarification of this. Having already uploaded some suggestions, I'd like to know whether I should license them to the WMF as suggested above. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::I'll ask our attorneys and get back with you on that one. :) I don't see why it would be a problem, if the community think it's a good idea, but with legal questions always best to get the input of our lawyers! --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::(Asked. Will post response as soon as I get one. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC))

:::::That's great! Thanks! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

*In terms of transfer of rights in every submission prior to selection (temporarily, for those which aren't selected), I spoke to Michelle Paulson who says that we can certainly do this, if that's what you want. As [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] wisely points out, the rules would need to specify that logos that aren't similar to the final choice would be released as copyleft, so we avoid people making derivatives that are close to our logos. :) Meanwhile, if copyright to WMF is not preferred, we can certainly create clarity around recommended licenses (or license). There are challenges to consider there, of course, including license limitations of whichever project hosts the submissions, since Commons and Meta currently do not permit non-commercial licenses. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:05, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks for the update! :) So if I'm happy to license my suggestions to the WMF (which I am) I should do so? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::You ''can'' do that. I think we might need to figure out if that's a requirement change that the community is comfortable with before I stay you ''should'' do that. :D --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::Commons allows WMF-copyrighted logos even though they're technically non-free. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, this is true - but they don't allow other non-free content, which is why I mention that if copyright to WMF is ''not'' preferred, license requirements need to conform to the policy of whoever hosts the images. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Whoops; sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 20:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

== Copy-edit ... a few queries ==

I've run through it with no intention of changing intended meanings. In a few places, intended meanings were hard to work out. There was a bit of disorganisation. And I've put subheadings in. I noticed quite a few snags for translators, who could easily grasp unintended meanings from the English (e.g. "who will be analyzing"—marked tense for a mental clause, unnecessary and unusual even in English, would cause knotted brows; I changed it to the unmarked "who will analyze"; there are lots of traps in this text).

"The winner will be the logo that receives the most points."—Is this a safe blanket statement to make at the end? I'm unsure why the para I've headed "Summary" needs to be there at all, actually.

I don't understand what "mod period" refers to.

Can the references to time intervals be expressed consistently as business days where they involve staff input in the example timeline?

I can't ''imagine'' why those obstructive translation templates have to be littered within almost every single point. In any case, they make numbered editing impossible. Then it wouldn't save because of them, so I took the fine-grained ones out: good riddance. Where is this system explained so that people can edit text?

Here's [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Logo_selection_procedure&diff=5535002&oldid=5525448 the diff]. I'd be please if my edits were checked through. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 05:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:I have raised with John Harald Søby, who I believe was one of the designers of the translate template system, (1) why it is helpful to translators to mark up text at the bullet-point level (I can't imagine why); and (2) why there are no instructions to ordinary editors on how to edit ''around'' the templates in edit-mode. Not many non-translators want to endure a long tutorial on how to use the system fully. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 06:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::Hi, Tony. The one change of substance that I see was in your eliminating the note that original uploaders ''may'' alter their images. Obviously, "No modifications of originals" is somewhat different from "Original uploaders are encouraged to modify their submission during the submission period, if they choose." :D I've put it back, although of course that's open for consensus.

::I'll see if I can try to address your other question. The reason why the translations templates appear within every single point is to that translators do not have to format their translations. When you change the system, you risk invalidating the translations we already have, but hopefully an experienced translation administrator will be able to accommodate your changes without risking what others have already done.

::"mod period" refers to "modification period", but I'll clarify in case others can't parse that.

::The section you titled summary is not a summary - it is an explanation of the final round.

::Consistency between business days and days is a good suggestion - I had decided to use just days but failed to update the second instance accordingly. Is there a preference between business days and days? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 11:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Maggie, depends on whether you want to exclude weekends and public holidays (presumably in the US). I'm used to ''working days'', but ''business days'' is perfectly comprehensible to readers. Perhaps the voting periods should be just "one week", etc, since that's easier to understand than "five business days". The WMF reviews I presume ''are'' likely to need to exclude weekends. So both systems where appropriate, but consistent for each throughout the page, I guess. Thx [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 12:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

== Deadline shift - end of August ==

Hi. I am absolutely ''delighted'' to let you all know that Michelle Paulson has gotten us some additional breathing room to agree on a process here. :) She is out until Thursday because of being subpoenaed as a witness in a trial (unrelated to WMF), but has been persisting in talking to WTO about the possibility of extending the end of July deadline we already had. We now have until the end of August. Obviously, this gives us considerably more time to work out the best process here and get things in place. I'm so grateful that Michelle continued working on this and that WTO is being so very reasonable about this timing. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 17:37, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:Great to hear :) --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 22:43, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::That is good news! Thanks for all your (and Michelle's) hard work! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:55, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic news! Thanks to you and Michelle! :) [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

== Proposals ==

I propose these:

<gallery>
WV logo v28.png
Plane2.png
</gallery>

--[[User:NaBUru38|NaBUru38]] ([[User talk:NaBUru38|talk]]) 18:39, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

:Hi. :) This page is actually for talking about ''how'' to choose. :) You might want to hold the actual proposals until the process is nailed down and opened up, probably at a page named specifically for Wikivoyage. :D --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

== Twitter ==

Quick question that isn't really related to this issue:
We've recently revived the WV Twitter account, but it's currently using the pre-WMF logo as we were concerned about putting the arrows logo to a new use after being asked to stop. Would it be ok for us to use the current logo, in spite of the WTO's 'cease and desist', or are we better to leave it as it is until a new logo is found? :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:A link for the interested: https://twitter.com/Wikivoyage --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 19:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:: The current image looks like a good temporary solution. Better not to start new uses of the disputed logo. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  03:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-04T13:23:27Z

JamesA: /* Purpose of page; pending logo selection */ +re

==Purpose of page; pending logo selection==
The Wikimedia Foundation has been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, but were not expecting to be called upon to develop one so quickly. In light of the recent discovery that the current Wikivoyage logo is too similar to an existing logo (see Foundation statement [[Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]]), we are bringing this before you with less time than we had hoped to discuss and improve the plan. I apologize for this short notice, but it's necessary to develop a working process and to select a new logo for Wikivoyage within two months. Accordingly, I hope that we can iron out any issues with this proposed process (based heavily on past contests and on the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons) with a brief consultation to allow plenty of time for the important work of creating and selecting a usable logo for Wikivoyage. The proposed timeline for that is, of course, on the main page.

Your thoughts are needed and very much welcome - the purpose here is to try to encourage community creativity and input from as broad a range of community members as possible, while also allowing necessary time for legal review to prevent issues of the sort we are encountering now from occurring again. This process is based heavily on past logo contests and the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons.

With all that in mind, please share your questions, comments and suggestions. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 16:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

:Ugh, again we don't get to choose our own procedure? Our project, at least the English version, doesn't allow voting, because it discourages people from making persuasive, thoughtful arguments when they can affect the decisions by saying "support" or "oppose." Moreover, we wanted to have a bit more local control over the selection, because we felt overwhelmed by Wikimedians with minimal familiarity with our background, culture, processes, and mission. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 16:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::Isn't the discussion during the submission period a good place to make persuasive, thoughtful arguments (before the voting is open), and then again, after the three finalists are selected and discussed? –[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::I think the impending vote will discourage thoughtful discussion prior to the vote. The discussion process will become a fight, not an attempt to move towards consensus. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::Pt: doesn't allow voting either, and I concur with Peter's comments. Though there are lots of good creative people out there, I think we would like active Wikivoyagers to have a little more weight in the decision than the random people who may have barely even visited and who may not understand what we are all about. And as an aside, I wonder why we would need to wait 10 more days to open submission - why not just start now and make the submission period longer? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 17:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::This is not intended to be the "Wikivoyage logo contest procedure", but simply the "logo contest procedure" - a standardized way of reaching community logos for any and every project of the Wikimedia community. :) It just happens that Wikivoyage would be first to use it, due to the legal issues with the existing logo. It is intended to be as inclusive as possible simply because that's our ideal. There's nothing at all to prevent opening submissions sooner, no matter the process we wind up with, as long as it is understood that the submission rules are set by the legal department so they must apply regardless of the rest of the procedure. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 17:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::I would love to change the name of this too, for the same reasons of wanting this to be about working together, not competing. How about selection procedure, not contest procedure? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I agree with all of the above. This does seem a rather long-winded process and voting isn't really the WV way. Consensus and specific criticisms and recommendations would be, in my view a simpler, quicker and generally preferable system. A good example of this is the contrast between new Main Page discussions on en:WV en:WP. Whilst admittedly a much bigger wiki, WP has had many year-long failed attempts to create a new Main Page, whilst we took a couple of months to form a design between us; working together.--[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::The process was built to allow lots of time for legal review and plenty of time for community consultation. In terms of voting, it's the same language used [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|in the last process]]. :) However, again, this isn't a process created specifically and solely for Wikivoyage. We hoped to arrive at a process for all logo selections that would permit participation by as many Wikimedians as possible, since in many cases there will be wide interest in identifying marks. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Sorry if that came across as a little brusk - I absolutely understand that we want to make sure this logo lasts more than a few months! :) We do want to be open with this, but then again, I agree with the others that we don't want this to be dominated by people who have never set foot in WV before. Thanks for all your work with this! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I understand. :) It makes total sense to me that you want to make sure that the people who work on and care about Wikivoyage wind up with a logo that reflects and represents their work properly. My current plan with whatever process we wind up with is to make sure that this is well-broadcast on Wikivoyage. I've already spoken to James Alexander about a targeted central notice on all of the Wikivoyage projects whenever the process does officially start, to help make sure that awareness there is high. Nobody wants a logo that makes the WV editors unhappy. And hopefully if there are potential legal issues, we will catch them in advance this time - that's a major goal of the process. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 22:38, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::That would be great, thanks very much! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
We need to be very careful to separate this document, which is an attempt to set up a standardized logo-contest procedure, from the upcoming effort to select a new logo for Wikivoyage. The two are connected, I believe, only insofar as the upcoming Wikivoyage change is the first opportunity to use the new procedure. I would be surprised if the WMF required us to follow the procedure outlined here if we decided we wanted to do it differently. I would suggest that we discuss specifics for Wikivoyage's process in some other location (perhaps [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]], and leave this page for discussing the generic process and refinements thereto. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 17:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::We would actually rather that you follow this process, LtPowers. There are a number of reasons for it: first, a great deal of energy has gone into designing a process that is legally compliant and ensures that all the various markers (legal, trademark, merch, etc) are hit. Second, it's like most open-source projects... when you run off to do your own thing, then the upstream original doesn't get the benefits of your refinements. We'd far prefer that you discuss any proposed changes here, so that the standardized process can get the value of your refinements as well. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 21:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Well then maybe WMF should identify which parts of the process are inviolable. Is it possible for us to set up a process without voting? That is, to make the standard process voting-optional? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Personally, I think it's important to have clarity on any process prior to its implementation. I guess my question would be what if we get submission participation like we had [[Logo_contest|here]]? How would that be manageable? I think it's worth opening up that conversation. How would the submission period and refinement be segregated from consensus choice between options? (The current proposal was intended in part to avoid the issues that were discussed [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Voting_open.3F|here]].) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]])

I concur with the other Wikivoyagers here. I'm sorry, but the last "contest" was a disaster that was far biased towards Wikimedians due to its publicity there. Wikivoyagers were hardly represented due to the migration mess our community was in at the time and the fact we don't have as many contributors. I could not, under any circumstances, accept "votes" from users who did not have a certain number of edits on '''Wikivoyage''' and have edited there for a certain amount of time. As others have said, voting is also prohibited at Wikivoyage. If we were to only allow Wikivoyagers to provide input, a consensus discussion would probably take less time and less effort due to the tight-knit nature of our community. The Wikimedia Foundation has no right to force such a process upon us; their role is to facilitate, not to overrule community processes. I understand there are legal concerns, and that's fine for the WMF legal department to have time to rule out some logos. But this needs to be a ''Wikivoyage'' process. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:Again, this is not a "Wikivoyage" process under discussion, but a process for all logo selection. Wikivoyage would just be the first to utilize the process, given the unfortunate issue with its logo that requires its quick replacement. Personally, I think inclusiveness is one of the Wikimedia movement's core values and one of its greatest strengths - while it makes sense to me to limit voting to those with registered accounts before the process to avoid gaming the system, I'm afraid I don't understand why you think that a contributor to, say, Commons - perhaps one who is ''submitting'' a design for the logo - might not have good input about design aesthetics? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 02:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::If we're talking about providing input, then everyone should be able to voice their opinion. But if voting is really going to be forced down our throat, only Wikivoyagers should be allowed to participate in such a vote, basing their vote on the general comments provided by all of the Wikimedia movement. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:: Let me give you an example. In the Russian Wikivoyage, at some point shortly before migration we decided to vote for the name of the project in Russian. A trusted user was asked to manage the vote, and an announcement was made in the Russian Wikipedia. A turnout was reasonobly high, and after two rounds the current name (Викигид) was chosen. However, most of the voters who have chosen this option, never edited Wikivoyage before or after, they just had their opinion but no interest in the project. Most of the active Wikivoyage participants who turned out preferred another version, and in the end of the day we were imposed, by a completely transparent and democratic procedure, to use a name we had no interest in. Well, it is not such a big deal, and I think by now we got accustomed to it, but I believe this is an example of a situation my colleagues have in mind.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 06:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Is it possible for Wikivoyage to follow the process, but to do it on Wikivoyage pages? This would encourage participation by Wikivoyage contributors. As a general point, I think that Meta should only be used for such matters for new projects, and the projects pages should be used for established projects. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 10:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::The purpose of this conversation is to refine the process so that it works best for us all. :) It's already been altered based on feedback here, and retitled. Some elements (like the submission rules and a WMF review period of finalists) are requirements; some are based on previous processes. Others (like giving away lapel pins) are just things that seemed like they could be nice. I won't reiterate what I said above about the purpose of the conversation, but I will emphasize that what we're hoping to do here is open up conversation about what works in this proposal and what needs to be changed and why. This is why I asked Lt. Powers the questions I did above, because I think those are important things to think about if voting is going to be optional in the process. The place where the contest is held is certainly open for discussion, too - but it does raise some questions for me, personally. Is there a Wikivoyage location that is central to all Wikivoyagers and all languages? If not, where would it be hosted? On the German version, which is the oldest? (If only we had cross-wiki watchlists. :/) If it were hosted on Wikivoyage, would people feel more comfortable that it will reflect the values of Wikivoyagers? I really do understand that concern, but before we close off participation in a process to any Wikimedians would hope we can explore it fully. Openness is one of our core values, and the best designer we have may be a Wikispecies contributor we don't know yet who would unveil his or her brilliance during the logo selection process. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Personally, I don't really have any qualms with non-Voyagers submitting their proposals or even commenting on them, but I think a major fear here is that, if we must have a vote, it will be swamped by people who never have and never will edit Wikivoyage (like the last contest) and, as such won't really reflect our values, ethos, direction, style or anything else. I think if we do have to have a vote, a lot of people would be happier if they knew that (and this might be somewhat controversial) either only people from WV could vote (could it be held internally?) or if votes were weighted differently depending on a user's previous contributions. I understand that this might seem a little anti-democratic, but what I'm suggesting is simply limiting voting to the site's constituents. There are people on Wikivoyage who have followed it through all of its transformations over many years and have invested heavily in its content (I don't include myself in that number). To me, it seems a little unfair that the vote of a Wikipedia user who has edited one word in an article about bananas should have the same clout.
:::::I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable - I'm certainly not trying to be! I do understand that an operation such as this probably takes an awful lot of effort and organisation and I thank you for that. There are so many people on here and I'm sure it's seldom easy to keep everyone happy. It's just, as Peter says below, we see this as a good opportunity to put right the wrongs (as we see them) of the last contest. Thanks for all your hard work and taking the time to respond to our concerns. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::Thank ''you'' for sharing your concerns. :) While one of the major factors in developing this was looking at issues that have been raised in previous logo selection processes (for instance, [[User:JamesA]] raised some very good points about potential bias in the voting process [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Voting_open.3F|here]] that the clear separation of submission period from voting round was meant to help resolve; the suggested randomization of image display was also meant to help avoid bias by prioritizing simply what comes first), hearing the wrongs you saw in the last contest is very helpful, as is talking about how to address them. It sounds like you think it might be better to open submission and discussion period to anyone, but leave selection (by whatever means) to editors in the project impacted? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks again for your prompt response! Yeah, that would sound like a good solution to me: would it be possible to run the process in that (or a similar) way? :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I think that's probably within consensus to determine. While I hope that people will always think carefully about how best to balance inclusiveness and fair representation, I don't think that's off the table. :) The way I read it, for example, I think that voting for Russian ArbCom is limited to Russian Wikipedians. On the other hand, Wikidata seems to have done okay with its [[Wikidata/Logo voting|inclusive selection process]] (at least, I guess; I've not heard of any issues :D). I would really hope to encourage people to discuss pros and cons before deciding that limited participation is the best approach. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 01:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Of course. I certainly can't speak for the community, but it's nice to have this option open to us. Thanks again! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 09:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Yes for Wikidata this inclusive process was fine. However I'd argue that this case is different from WikiVoyage insofar that Wikidata did not have an existing community and that it is a project that is specifically supposed to serve all Wikimedia projects. So all of them having a say seemed sensible. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 10:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::Both of those seem like a useful distinctions between Wikidata and Wikivoyage to me: The lack of a preexisting Wikidata community and the meta-nature of that project. I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who are creating and editing the content and will see the logo every day. The precise mechanisms for giving Wikivoyage users more of a say are obviously open to discussion, but I would like to see the principle accepted. In terms of where to have the vote (if there is to indeed be a vote, and not a decision by consensus): During the migration of Wikivoyage to the WMF, there was a General Wikivoyage board, in addition to specific-language boards. Perhaps that board could be revived for the purpose of this vote. I don't know how complicated that would be, as I am not a computer programmer. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 11:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::Absolutely! I can understand that, for general practice, it's worthwhile keeping logo selections open to all as, in most cases, the logo is for a new project and thus there isn't yet a fully fledged community to make that decision. Wikivoyage is different (as has been noted) because we already have a living, breathing community. If the General Wikivoyage Board could be resurrected that sounds like a good place to vote or come to a consensus. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 11:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::I'll poke about and see what I can find out about that. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 12:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks! That would be great! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 13:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Much appreciated, Maggie. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 13:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
{{unindent}} Can somebody tell me the URL of this Wikivoyage general board? So far, I've discovered confusion about this. I spoke to one person who thought it was not a WMF page, which would mean I can't do anything about it myself. Knowing exactly where it was would be very helpful! :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:The General section was not imported during the migration to the WMF, but can be found in its preserved state [http://general.wikivoyage-old.org/general/Main_Page here]. Personally, I'm not totally convinced we need it, and it might create confusion in terms of duplicating the purpose of Meta for interlingual discussion coordination. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::Maybe it would be better then to just hold it either on here on in one particular language version. With enough pointers it shouldn't be a real problem wherever it's held. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Just as a note: We already plan (there was a request somewhere else I believe in this discussion) to have central notice banners on the Wikivoyage sites (and only the wikivoyage sites) to point to the vote )and the submission area if desired ) so we could definitely point to wherever it happened with those and with obvious TP posts. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC) I realized after writing that I don't actually know if Wikivoyage uses TP or anything else as a "Travelers' pub" short name. 

::: “I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who […] will see the logo every day.” ([http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALogo_selection_procedure&diff=5533026&oldid=5532911 Ikan Kekek]) — and so will the readers. I think it wouldn’t be sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say on matters of design and aesthetics; on the other hand, they should have all the say on the defining characteristics of Wikivoyage (to be conveyed in the logo). — [[User:Linus Wolf|Linus]] ([[User talk:Linus Wolf|disk]]) 22:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::If we implement the system suggested above, all users of all wikis will be able to comment on matters of style and will be able to submit logos as well. It is the final decision that would be made by Wikivoyage users (as Ikan Kekek said) and it seems only fair that the group that generates the site's content chooses the symbol under which it is published. We're certainly not trying to make people feel excluded; just ensuring that the community can choose a logo with which at least the majority of its members are comfortable. When the process does begin I'm sure your comments and input would be appreciated. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 23:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, after some discussions with other older Wikivoyagers, I'm not sure whether barring all non-WV users outright is appropriate. We are still a fairly small-ish community, and probably wouldn't engage many voters as every Wikivoyager is not going to bother to vote. The other weighted vote idea may work better, or choosing through consensus. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:How many active WV users are there (in all languages)? [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 09:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for the link to the board, Peter. We wouldn't be able to resurrect that ourselves, since it wasn't a WMF website, but of course we could recreate it. That said, it might be just as good to host the process on Meta whether voting/selection is restricted to community members of the project are not. From what JamesA says, though, it may be better to look at alternatives to be sure that there's enough participation. Weighting votes in contests like this one where there is naturally stronger investment in one community (Wikivoyagers) might work. If eliminating voting is preferred (or offering that option in the process, since some larger logo selection processes might not work that way), I think it's probably a good idea to start talking about what the alternative would look like. Who would judge consensus, and on what would it be based? (On English Wikipedia - the project where I do most of my volunteering - consensus is judged by strength of arguments weighed against policies. If some arguments for logos are stronger than others, it would probably be a good idea to offer some guidance as to what factors weigh. :)) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 11:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::Tony, unfortunately I don't have any exact stats. But anecdotally, I've noticed there has been a recent downtrend in the number of very active users that you regularly see on the Recent Changes. My watchlist of discussions is also usually quite empty, suggesting less participation and more stalling in discussions. I presume many Wikivoyagers might simply be travelling now, seeing as it's our speciality!
::Thanks for your comments, Maggie. Your question over who would judge consensus is a good one, and it makes me think that it may not work either! I guess when we suggested a consensus method, we had hoped that all the participants would somehow come to an accepted compromise that everyone could be happy about; but we all know wikis don't always work like that. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 13:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

==Contest v. Process==
Per feedback above, I've moved this form "Logo contest procedure" to "Logo selection procedure." I've modified the language internally accordingly. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

== Simplified header ==
I moved the fearlang in the header to [[logo]] (which is linked from it), and balanced it with some lovelang reminding people why we desire shared identity and purpose in the first place. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  02:04, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Requests for comment → 30 days ==

Hi. It's standard practice for something like this to have (at least) thirty days of discussion. This is typical of any [[RFC|request for comment]]s (RFC) here on Meta-Wiki or on other wikis, as far as I know. I don't see any reason to deviate from this here. The June 10 deadline seems arbitrary and movable. As I see it, there are two options:

# push back the timeline of selecting a Wikivoyage logo; or
# not use this procedure for the selection of a new Wikivoyage logo.

We absolutely should not feel rushed into accepting a procedure that the community has not explicitly endorsed. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:06, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Is there any attribution for this document? The page history is useless.

:Is there something wrong with the page history? It looks fine to me. :/

:The deadline for the new logo is a legal imposition, I'm afraid. It would be great if we had more time, but we don't. We ''do'', of course, have the old process, [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|begun here]], which featured a submission period followed by voting, refinement and further voting, like the proposal here. The ''biggest'' difference here, of course, is the legal review that might help avoid this issue occurring again. (Also some of the specific points about how refinement and voting occur.) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:: Well, if the deadline for selecting a new Wikivoyage logo can't be moved, I don't see how this procedure can be used. Ten days is not enough time to decide something of this nature, particularly with festering concerns about how to appropriately balance the weight of Wikimedian contributors vs. the weight of people directly involved in a project (in this case, Wikivoyage contributors).
:: Regarding attribution, did you write this entire page in a single edit? My reading of the page history is that this page was created in a single edit (followed by two edits by you to mark it for translation). If you wrote this entire page in a single edit, it's both incredibly impressive and wildly uncharacteristic of your editing style. ;-) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::: Maggie, no two logo contests have been held the same way :) So I recommend simply proposing a specific process for this contest, similar to the selection procedure discussed in this RfC. No need to have an RfC for that - just get some of the core WV community members to help organize or sign off on this contest, including those who organized the last contest and those who have recently been thinking about logos. The RfC about how to do this in the future can proceed in parallel. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  03:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::@MzMcBride: No, of course not. :) I mentioned in the note in which I announced it that we had been working on it with the idea of launching it later. It's a collaborative document - some of it is mine, some of it was written by other people. Attribution doesn't require incremental edits or individual edits, of course. A work of joint authorship can be licensed by ''any'' of its contributors. :) (From what the laywers tell me, the logo ''must'' be replaced by the end of July.)

::::@SJ, we are proposing this process be used for ''this'' logo contest as well as others. :) It includes the elements of the last contest, as I mentioned above - submission and discussion, voting, redesign & voting - but also allows for legal review and provides clarity as to what submission means and how the process works. Certainly, the particulars are open for discussion, but the fact remains that we have to have ''some'' process in place quickly for selecting a Wikivoyage logo - we don't have the 30 days MzMcBride would like to figure that out, unless we have a ''very'' narrow window for selection :/ Philippe has explained above why LCA believes that a standardized approach is a good idea. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::: Attribution certainly doesn't require individual edits, no. But when the community is evaluating a document like this, it can be helpful to know its origins. Given the copyright work you do, I would think you would understand better than most what value a trail of edits can have when evaluating a work. (I'm not suggesting that there's any copyright issue here, of course. Just noting that we all value descriptive page histories.)
::::: If the deadline must be the end of July (which seems terribly arbitrary, but all right...), then this would just be the "Wikivoyage logo selection procedure", then. Easy enough to move the page around and solicit feedback from the affected communities. Presenting a document like this (from a black box) and giving the community ten days to decide whether to implement this as global policy doesn't seem like it's going to work. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 04:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::As I said, this is not a Wikivoyage logo selection procedure proposal. It's a logo selection procedure proposal; Wikivoyage would simply be the first to use it. I agree that the short lead time is not good. Nobody intended this to go out in this way, but the legal problem with the Wikivoyage logo complicated everything. The legal team knows that the community needs time and negotiated with the WTO for what we have. Cease & desists are generally immediate, as you probably know. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Why not take the runner-up of the first selection process? ==

Why we need a new selection process. KISS rules, let's take the runner-up from the first selection process. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 07:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:As has been mentioned by active Wikivoyagers numerous times above, the last process was very Wikimedian-biased and the views of Wikivoyagers were barely considered. We were considering a new logo for our project in a few months time even before this legal predicament emerged. I think the design of the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Option_4_Compass_Rose_with_Globe|runner-up]] that you suggest just goes to prove how meta-biased the last vote was... [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 11:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::The design of the runner-up seems to have been produced by [http://ru.wikivoyage.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F:%D0%92%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4/Digr a very active and long-standing Wikivoyager]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:::The runner up should be considered again, naturally (its close similarity to the Meta logo was the objection raised by people who didn't support it last time). But we discussed having another go at creating the best possible logo back then anyway, so why not do another round of submissions. We're rushed once again, but we at least have the ''potential'' to do things better this time. That potential might be (or looks likely to be?) squandered if this becomes more about creating a one-size-fits-all process for choosing logos, that isn't at all tailored to the particulars of Wikivoyage, its culture, and its size. We're painfully aware of what went wrong in the last selection process (not just for the icon), which regularly produced the stalest, safest, least exciting, and least "Wikivoyagey" results possible--a really stark contrast with all the exciting aesthetic work we've done locally since, all consensually, professionally, cordially, and crucially without voting.

:::We would prefer/expected to use the lessons learned last time. But it's looking like this has all been taken out of our hands. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::Peter, I can understand your concerns, but as I noted above this is a conversation in advance of the logo selection procedure. It would be very different if we had announced the problem and simultaneously said, "We're doing a new logo selection, and we're doing it like this." That's not what this is about. :) We're here to collaborate. Philippe explained above why LCA would prefer standardization - and you actually highlight its necessity here, since in terms of the movement it makes sense for you to share what you've learned from what went wrong and help build a process that works for everyone - but that doesn't mean any system we build can't be ''flexible'' to the needs of the situation. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::That contributor has done some great work on both the en: and ru: projects, but I was taking issue with the similar design and the large amount of support despite reservations being mentioned many times. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

== Some input from the Wikidata logo selection ==

Not too long ago we've done this whole thing for the Wikidata logo. The one important take-away for me was that it would have been a very good idea to give a recommendation for the licensing, especially when uploaded to Commons. People were very confused about what is ok and what is not - especially given the requirement to give a license to the Foundation. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 15:07, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

: I think that is a very important point for a travel site. There is the possibility of the Wikivoyage logo being misused for commercial purposes if it is not copyright from the start. The maximum protection must be available to stop hotels displaying our logo in their window to imply approval. Could all uploads of logo drafts be made WMF copyright. After the selection is over any logos that are not similar to the final choice could be realeased as copyleft. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::I'd be keen to hear some clarification of this. Having already uploaded some suggestions, I'd like to know whether I should license them to the WMF as suggested above. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::I'll ask our attorneys and get back with you on that one. :) I don't see why it would be a problem, if the community think it's a good idea, but with legal questions always best to get the input of our lawyers! --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::(Asked. Will post response as soon as I get one. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC))

:::::That's great! Thanks! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

*In terms of transfer of rights in every submission prior to selection (temporarily, for those which aren't selected), I spoke to Michelle Paulson who says that we can certainly do this, if that's what you want. As [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] wisely points out, the rules would need to specify that logos that aren't similar to the final choice would be released as copyleft, so we avoid people making derivatives that are close to our logos. :) Meanwhile, if copyright to WMF is not preferred, we can certainly create clarity around recommended licenses (or license). There are challenges to consider there, of course, including license limitations of whichever project hosts the submissions, since Commons and Meta currently do not permit non-commercial licenses. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:05, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks for the update! :) So if I'm happy to license my suggestions to the WMF (which I am) I should do so? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::You ''can'' do that. I think we might need to figure out if that's a requirement change that the community is comfortable with before I stay you ''should'' do that. :D --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::Commons allows WMF-copyrighted logos even though they're technically non-free. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, this is true - but they don't allow other non-free content, which is why I mention that if copyright to WMF is ''not'' preferred, license requirements need to conform to the policy of whoever hosts the images. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

== Copy-edit ... a few queries ==

I've run through it with no intention of changing intended meanings. In a few places, intended meanings were hard to work out. There was a bit of disorganisation. And I've put subheadings in. I noticed quite a few snags for translators, who could easily grasp unintended meanings from the English (e.g. "who will be analyzing"—marked tense for a mental clause, unnecessary and unusual even in English, would cause knotted brows; I changed it to the unmarked "who will analyze"; there are lots of traps in this text).

"The winner will be the logo that receives the most points."—Is this a safe blanket statement to make at the end? I'm unsure why the para I've headed "Summary" needs to be there at all, actually.

I don't understand what "mod period" refers to.

Can the references to time intervals be expressed consistently as business days where they involve staff input in the example timeline?

I can't ''imagine'' why those obstructive translation templates have to be littered within almost every single point. In any case, they make numbered editing impossible. Then it wouldn't save because of them, so I took the fine-grained ones out: good riddance. Where is this system explained so that people can edit text?

Here's [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Logo_selection_procedure&diff=5535002&oldid=5525448 the diff]. I'd be please if my edits were checked through. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 05:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:I have raised with John Harald Søby, who I believe was one of the designers of the translate template system, (1) why it is helpful to translators to mark up text at the bullet-point level (I can't imagine why); and (2) why there are no instructions to ordinary editors on how to edit ''around'' the templates in edit-mode. Not many non-translators want to endure a long tutorial on how to use the system fully. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 06:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
::Hi, Tony. The one change of substance that I see was in your eliminating the note that original uploaders ''may'' alter their images. Obviously, "No modifications of originals" is somewhat different from "Original uploaders are encouraged to modify their submission during the submission period, if they choose." :D I've put it back, although of course that's open for consensus.

::I'll see if I can try to address your other question. The reason why the translations templates appear within every single point is to that translators do not have to format their translations. When you change the system, you risk invalidating the translations we already have, but hopefully an experienced translation administrator will be able to accommodate your changes without risking what others have already done.

::"mod period" refers to "modification period", but I'll clarify in case others can't parse that.

::The section you titled summary is not a summary - it is an explanation of the final round.

::Consistency between business days and days is a good suggestion - I had decided to use just days but failed to update the second instance accordingly. Is there a preference between business days and days? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 11:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Maggie, depends on whether you want to exclude weekends and public holidays (presumably in the US). I'm used to ''working days'', but ''business days'' is perfectly comprehensible to readers. Perhaps the voting periods should be just "one week", etc, since that's easier to understand than "five business days". The WMF reviews I presume ''are'' likely to need to exclude weekends. So both systems where appropriate, but consistent for each throughout the page, I guess. Thx [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 12:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-04T07:49:23Z

JamesA: /* Purpose of page; pending logo selection */ +cmt

==Purpose of page; pending logo selection==
The Wikimedia Foundation has been considering ways to optimize logo selection by the community, but were not expecting to be called upon to develop one so quickly. In light of the recent discovery that the current Wikivoyage logo is too similar to an existing logo (see Foundation statement [[Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]]), we are bringing this before you with less time than we had hoped to discuss and improve the plan. I apologize for this short notice, but it's necessary to develop a working process and to select a new logo for Wikivoyage within two months. Accordingly, I hope that we can iron out any issues with this proposed process (based heavily on past contests and on the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons) with a brief consultation to allow plenty of time for the important work of creating and selecting a usable logo for Wikivoyage. The proposed timeline for that is, of course, on the main page.

Your thoughts are needed and very much welcome - the purpose here is to try to encourage community creativity and input from as broad a range of community members as possible, while also allowing necessary time for legal review to prevent issues of the sort we are encountering now from occurring again. This process is based heavily on past logo contests and the "Picture of the Year" contest on Commons.

With all that in mind, please share your questions, comments and suggestions. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 16:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

:Ugh, again we don't get to choose our own procedure? Our project, at least the English version, doesn't allow voting, because it discourages people from making persuasive, thoughtful arguments when they can affect the decisions by saying "support" or "oppose." Moreover, we wanted to have a bit more local control over the selection, because we felt overwhelmed by Wikimedians with minimal familiarity with our background, culture, processes, and mission. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 16:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::Isn't the discussion during the submission period a good place to make persuasive, thoughtful arguments (before the voting is open), and then again, after the three finalists are selected and discussed? –[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::I think the impending vote will discourage thoughtful discussion prior to the vote. The discussion process will become a fight, not an attempt to move towards consensus. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::Pt: doesn't allow voting either, and I concur with Peter's comments. Though there are lots of good creative people out there, I think we would like active Wikivoyagers to have a little more weight in the decision than the random people who may have barely even visited and who may not understand what we are all about. And as an aside, I wonder why we would need to wait 10 more days to open submission - why not just start now and make the submission period longer? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 17:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::This is not intended to be the "Wikivoyage logo contest procedure", but simply the "logo contest procedure" - a standardized way of reaching community logos for any and every project of the Wikimedia community. :) It just happens that Wikivoyage would be first to use it, due to the legal issues with the existing logo. It is intended to be as inclusive as possible simply because that's our ideal. There's nothing at all to prevent opening submissions sooner, no matter the process we wind up with, as long as it is understood that the submission rules are set by the legal department so they must apply regardless of the rest of the procedure. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 17:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::I would love to change the name of this too, for the same reasons of wanting this to be about working together, not competing. How about selection procedure, not contest procedure? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I agree with all of the above. This does seem a rather long-winded process and voting isn't really the WV way. Consensus and specific criticisms and recommendations would be, in my view a simpler, quicker and generally preferable system. A good example of this is the contrast between new Main Page discussions on en:WV en:WP. Whilst admittedly a much bigger wiki, WP has had many year-long failed attempts to create a new Main Page, whilst we took a couple of months to form a design between us; working together.--[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::The process was built to allow lots of time for legal review and plenty of time for community consultation. In terms of voting, it's the same language used [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|in the last process]]. :) However, again, this isn't a process created specifically and solely for Wikivoyage. We hoped to arrive at a process for all logo selections that would permit participation by as many Wikimedians as possible, since in many cases there will be wide interest in identifying marks. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Sorry if that came across as a little brusk - I absolutely understand that we want to make sure this logo lasts more than a few months! :) We do want to be open with this, but then again, I agree with the others that we don't want this to be dominated by people who have never set foot in WV before. Thanks for all your work with this! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:50, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I understand. :) It makes total sense to me that you want to make sure that the people who work on and care about Wikivoyage wind up with a logo that reflects and represents their work properly. My current plan with whatever process we wind up with is to make sure that this is well-broadcast on Wikivoyage. I've already spoken to James Alexander about a targeted central notice on all of the Wikivoyage projects whenever the process does officially start, to help make sure that awareness there is high. Nobody wants a logo that makes the WV editors unhappy. And hopefully if there are potential legal issues, we will catch them in advance this time - that's a major goal of the process. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 22:38, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::That would be great, thanks very much! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
We need to be very careful to separate this document, which is an attempt to set up a standardized logo-contest procedure, from the upcoming effort to select a new logo for Wikivoyage. The two are connected, I believe, only insofar as the upcoming Wikivoyage change is the first opportunity to use the new procedure. I would be surprised if the WMF required us to follow the procedure outlined here if we decided we wanted to do it differently. I would suggest that we discuss specifics for Wikivoyage's process in some other location (perhaps [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo announcement]], and leave this page for discussing the generic process and refinements thereto. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 17:36, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
::We would actually rather that you follow this process, LtPowers. There are a number of reasons for it: first, a great deal of energy has gone into designing a process that is legally compliant and ensures that all the various markers (legal, trademark, merch, etc) are hit. Second, it's like most open-source projects... when you run off to do your own thing, then the upstream original doesn't get the benefits of your refinements. We'd far prefer that you discuss any proposed changes here, so that the standardized process can get the value of your refinements as well. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 21:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
:::Well then maybe WMF should identify which parts of the process are inviolable. Is it possible for us to set up a process without voting? That is, to make the standard process voting-optional? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 01:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::Personally, I think it's important to have clarity on any process prior to its implementation. I guess my question would be what if we get submission participation like we had [[Logo_contest|here]]? How would that be manageable? I think it's worth opening up that conversation. How would the submission period and refinement be segregated from consensus choice between options? (The current proposal was intended in part to avoid the issues that were discussed [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Voting_open.3F|here]].) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]])

I concur with the other Wikivoyagers here. I'm sorry, but the last "contest" was a disaster that was far biased towards Wikimedians due to its publicity there. Wikivoyagers were hardly represented due to the migration mess our community was in at the time and the fact we don't have as many contributors. I could not, under any circumstances, accept "votes" from users who did not have a certain number of edits on '''Wikivoyage''' and have edited there for a certain amount of time. As others have said, voting is also prohibited at Wikivoyage. If we were to only allow Wikivoyagers to provide input, a consensus discussion would probably take less time and less effort due to the tight-knit nature of our community. The Wikimedia Foundation has no right to force such a process upon us; their role is to facilitate, not to overrule community processes. I understand there are legal concerns, and that's fine for the WMF legal department to have time to rule out some logos. But this needs to be a ''Wikivoyage'' process. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:Again, this is not a "Wikivoyage" process under discussion, but a process for all logo selection. Wikivoyage would just be the first to utilize the process, given the unfortunate issue with its logo that requires its quick replacement. Personally, I think inclusiveness is one of the Wikimedia movement's core values and one of its greatest strengths - while it makes sense to me to limit voting to those with registered accounts before the process to avoid gaming the system, I'm afraid I don't understand why you think that a contributor to, say, Commons - perhaps one who is ''submitting'' a design for the logo - might not have good input about design aesthetics? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 02:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::If we're talking about providing input, then everyone should be able to voice their opinion. But if voting is really going to be forced down our throat, only Wikivoyagers should be allowed to participate in such a vote, basing their vote on the general comments provided by all of the Wikimedia movement. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
:: Let me give you an example. In the Russian Wikivoyage, at some point shortly before migration we decided to vote for the name of the project in Russian. A trusted user was asked to manage the vote, and an announcement was made in the Russian Wikipedia. A turnout was reasonobly high, and after two rounds the current name (Викигид) was chosen. However, most of the voters who have chosen this option, never edited Wikivoyage before or after, they just had their opinion but no interest in the project. Most of the active Wikivoyage participants who turned out preferred another version, and in the end of the day we were imposed, by a completely transparent and democratic procedure, to use a name we had no interest in. Well, it is not such a big deal, and I think by now we got accustomed to it, but I believe this is an example of a situation my colleagues have in mind.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 06:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::: Is it possible for Wikivoyage to follow the process, but to do it on Wikivoyage pages? This would encourage participation by Wikivoyage contributors. As a general point, I think that Meta should only be used for such matters for new projects, and the projects pages should be used for established projects. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 10:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::The purpose of this conversation is to refine the process so that it works best for us all. :) It's already been altered based on feedback here, and retitled. Some elements (like the submission rules and a WMF review period of finalists) are requirements; some are based on previous processes. Others (like giving away lapel pins) are just things that seemed like they could be nice. I won't reiterate what I said above about the purpose of the conversation, but I will emphasize that what we're hoping to do here is open up conversation about what works in this proposal and what needs to be changed and why. This is why I asked Lt. Powers the questions I did above, because I think those are important things to think about if voting is going to be optional in the process. The place where the contest is held is certainly open for discussion, too - but it does raise some questions for me, personally. Is there a Wikivoyage location that is central to all Wikivoyagers and all languages? If not, where would it be hosted? On the German version, which is the oldest? (If only we had cross-wiki watchlists. :/) If it were hosted on Wikivoyage, would people feel more comfortable that it will reflect the values of Wikivoyagers? I really do understand that concern, but before we close off participation in a process to any Wikimedians would hope we can explore it fully. Openness is one of our core values, and the best designer we have may be a Wikispecies contributor we don't know yet who would unveil his or her brilliance during the logo selection process. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::Personally, I don't really have any qualms with non-Voyagers submitting their proposals or even commenting on them, but I think a major fear here is that, if we must have a vote, it will be swamped by people who never have and never will edit Wikivoyage (like the last contest) and, as such won't really reflect our values, ethos, direction, style or anything else. I think if we do have to have a vote, a lot of people would be happier if they knew that (and this might be somewhat controversial) either only people from WV could vote (could it be held internally?) or if votes were weighted differently depending on a user's previous contributions. I understand that this might seem a little anti-democratic, but what I'm suggesting is simply limiting voting to the site's constituents. There are people on Wikivoyage who have followed it through all of its transformations over many years and have invested heavily in its content (I don't include myself in that number). To me, it seems a little unfair that the vote of a Wikipedia user who has edited one word in an article about bananas should have the same clout.
:::::I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable - I'm certainly not trying to be! I do understand that an operation such as this probably takes an awful lot of effort and organisation and I thank you for that. There are so many people on here and I'm sure it's seldom easy to keep everyone happy. It's just, as Peter says below, we see this as a good opportunity to put right the wrongs (as we see them) of the last contest. Thanks for all your hard work and taking the time to respond to our concerns. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 15:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::Thank ''you'' for sharing your concerns. :) While one of the major factors in developing this was looking at issues that have been raised in previous logo selection processes (for instance, [[User:JamesA]] raised some very good points about potential bias in the voting process [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Voting_open.3F|here]] that the clear separation of submission period from voting round was meant to help resolve; the suggested randomization of image display was also meant to help avoid bias by prioritizing simply what comes first), hearing the wrongs you saw in the last contest is very helpful, as is talking about how to address them. It sounds like you think it might be better to open submission and discussion period to anyone, but leave selection (by whatever means) to editors in the project impacted? --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::Thanks again for your prompt response! Yeah, that would sound like a good solution to me: would it be possible to run the process in that (or a similar) way? :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::I think that's probably within consensus to determine. While I hope that people will always think carefully about how best to balance inclusiveness and fair representation, I don't think that's off the table. :) The way I read it, for example, I think that voting for Russian ArbCom is limited to Russian Wikipedians. On the other hand, Wikidata seems to have done okay with its [[Wikidata/Logo voting|inclusive selection process]] (at least, I guess; I've not heard of any issues :D). I would really hope to encourage people to discuss pros and cons before deciding that limited participation is the best approach. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 01:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Of course. I certainly can't speak for the community, but it's nice to have this option open to us. Thanks again! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 09:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::Yes for Wikidata this inclusive process was fine. However I'd argue that this case is different from WikiVoyage insofar that Wikidata did not have an existing community and that it is a project that is specifically supposed to serve all Wikimedia projects. So all of them having a say seemed sensible. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 10:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::Both of those seem like a useful distinctions between Wikidata and Wikivoyage to me: The lack of a preexisting Wikidata community and the meta-nature of that project. I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who are creating and editing the content and will see the logo every day. The precise mechanisms for giving Wikivoyage users more of a say are obviously open to discussion, but I would like to see the principle accepted. In terms of where to have the vote (if there is to indeed be a vote, and not a decision by consensus): During the migration of Wikivoyage to the WMF, there was a General Wikivoyage board, in addition to specific-language boards. Perhaps that board could be revived for the purpose of this vote. I don't know how complicated that would be, as I am not a computer programmer. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 11:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

:::::::::::Absolutely! I can understand that, for general practice, it's worthwhile keeping logo selections open to all as, in most cases, the logo is for a new project and thus there isn't yet a fully fledged community to make that decision. Wikivoyage is different (as has been noted) because we already have a living, breathing community. If the General Wikivoyage Board could be resurrected that sounds like a good place to vote or come to a consensus. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 11:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::I'll poke about and see what I can find out about that. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 12:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Thanks! That would be great! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 13:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Much appreciated, Maggie. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 13:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
{{unindent}} Can somebody tell me the URL of this Wikivoyage general board? So far, I've discovered confusion about this. I spoke to one person who thought it was not a WMF page, which would mean I can't do anything about it myself. Knowing exactly where it was would be very helpful! :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:The General section was not imported during the migration to the WMF, but can be found in its preserved state [http://general.wikivoyage-old.org/general/Main_Page here]. Personally, I'm not totally convinced we need it, and it might create confusion in terms of duplicating the purpose of Meta for interlingual discussion coordination. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 21:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
::Maybe it would be better then to just hold it either on here on in one particular language version. With enough pointers it shouldn't be a real problem wherever it's held. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 22:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Just as a note: We already plan (there was a request somewhere else I believe in this discussion) to have central notice banners on the Wikivoyage sites (and only the wikivoyage sites) to point to the vote )and the submission area if desired ) so we could definitely point to wherever it happened with those and with obvious TP posts. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC) I realized after writing that I don't actually know if Wikivoyage uses TP or anything else as a "Travelers' pub" short name. 

::: “I think it's sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say in the selection of a logo, as we're the ones who […] will see the logo every day.” ([http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ALogo_selection_procedure&diff=5533026&oldid=5532911 Ikan Kekek]) — and so will the readers. I think it wouldn’t be sensible to give Wikivoyage users more of a say on matters of design and aesthetics; on the other hand, they should have all the say on the defining characteristics of Wikivoyage (to be conveyed in the logo). — [[User:Linus Wolf|Linus]] ([[User talk:Linus Wolf|disk]]) 22:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

::::If we implement the system suggested above, all users of all wikis will be able to comment on matters of style and will be able to submit logos as well. It is the final decision that would be made by Wikivoyage users (as Ikan Kekek said) and it seems only fair that the group that generates the site's content chooses the symbol under which it is published. We're certainly not trying to make people feel excluded; just ensuring that the community can choose a logo with which at least the majority of its members are comfortable. When the process does begin I'm sure your comments and input would be appreciated. :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 23:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, after some discussions with other older Wikivoyagers, I'm not sure whether barring all non-WV users outright is appropriate. We are still a fairly small-ish community, and probably wouldn't engage many voters as every Wikivoyager is not going to bother to vote. The other weighted vote idea may work better, or choosing through consensus. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 07:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

==Contest v. Process==
Per feedback above, I've moved this form "Logo contest procedure" to "Logo selection procedure." I've modified the language internally accordingly. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:41, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

== Simplified header ==
I moved the fearlang in the header to [[logo]] (which is linked from it), and balanced it with some lovelang reminding people why we desire shared identity and purpose in the first place. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  02:04, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Requests for comment → 30 days ==

Hi. It's standard practice for something like this to have (at least) thirty days of discussion. This is typical of any [[RFC|request for comment]]s (RFC) here on Meta-Wiki or on other wikis, as far as I know. I don't see any reason to deviate from this here. The June 10 deadline seems arbitrary and movable. As I see it, there are two options:

# push back the timeline of selecting a Wikivoyage logo; or
# not use this procedure for the selection of a new Wikivoyage logo.

We absolutely should not feel rushed into accepting a procedure that the community has not explicitly endorsed. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:06, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Is there any attribution for this document? The page history is useless.

:Is there something wrong with the page history? It looks fine to me. :/

:The deadline for the new logo is a legal imposition, I'm afraid. It would be great if we had more time, but we don't. We ''do'', of course, have the old process, [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round 1|begun here]], which featured a submission period followed by voting, refinement and further voting, like the proposal here. The ''biggest'' difference here, of course, is the legal review that might help avoid this issue occurring again. (Also some of the specific points about how refinement and voting occur.) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:: Well, if the deadline for selecting a new Wikivoyage logo can't be moved, I don't see how this procedure can be used. Ten days is not enough time to decide something of this nature, particularly with festering concerns about how to appropriately balance the weight of Wikimedian contributors vs. the weight of people directly involved in a project (in this case, Wikivoyage contributors).
:: Regarding attribution, did you write this entire page in a single edit? My reading of the page history is that this page was created in a single edit (followed by two edits by you to mark it for translation). If you wrote this entire page in a single edit, it's both incredibly impressive and wildly uncharacteristic of your editing style. ;-) --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::: Maggie, no two logo contests have been held the same way :) So I recommend simply proposing a specific process for this contest, similar to the selection procedure discussed in this RfC. No need to have an RfC for that - just get some of the core WV community members to help organize or sign off on this contest, including those who organized the last contest and those who have recently been thinking about logos. The RfC about how to do this in the future can proceed in parallel. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  03:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::@MzMcBride: No, of course not. :) I mentioned in the note in which I announced it that we had been working on it with the idea of launching it later. It's a collaborative document - some of it is mine, some of it was written by other people. Attribution doesn't require incremental edits or individual edits, of course. A work of joint authorship can be licensed by ''any'' of its contributors. :) (From what the laywers tell me, the logo ''must'' be replaced by the end of July.)

::::@SJ, we are proposing this process be used for ''this'' logo contest as well as others. :) It includes the elements of the last contest, as I mentioned above - submission and discussion, voting, redesign & voting - but also allows for legal review and provides clarity as to what submission means and how the process works. Certainly, the particulars are open for discussion, but the fact remains that we have to have ''some'' process in place quickly for selecting a Wikivoyage logo - we don't have the 30 days MzMcBride would like to figure that out, unless we have a ''very'' narrow window for selection :/ Philippe has explained above why LCA believes that a standardized approach is a good idea. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 03:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::: Attribution certainly doesn't require individual edits, no. But when the community is evaluating a document like this, it can be helpful to know its origins. Given the copyright work you do, I would think you would understand better than most what value a trail of edits can have when evaluating a work. (I'm not suggesting that there's any copyright issue here, of course. Just noting that we all value descriptive page histories.)
::::: If the deadline must be the end of July (which seems terribly arbitrary, but all right...), then this would just be the "Wikivoyage logo selection procedure", then. Easy enough to move the page around and solicit feedback from the affected communities. Presenting a document like this (from a black box) and giving the community ten days to decide whether to implement this as global policy doesn't seem like it's going to work. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 04:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
::::::As I said, this is not a Wikivoyage logo selection procedure proposal. It's a logo selection procedure proposal; Wikivoyage would simply be the first to use it. I agree that the short lead time is not good. Nobody intended this to go out in this way, but the legal problem with the Wikivoyage logo complicated everything. The legal team knows that the community needs time and negotiated with the WTO for what we have. Cease & desists are generally immediate, as you probably know. :/ --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

== Why not take the runner-up of the first selection process? ==

Why we need a new selection process. KISS rules, let's take the runner-up from the first selection process. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 07:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:As has been mentioned by active Wikivoyagers numerous times above, the last process was very Wikimedian-biased and the views of Wikivoyagers were barely considered. We were considering a new logo for our project in a few months time even before this legal predicament emerged. I think the design of the [[Wikivoyage/Logo/Round_1#Option_4_Compass_Rose_with_Globe|runner-up]] that you suggest just goes to prove how meta-biased the last vote was... [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 11:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::The design of the runner-up seems to have been produced by [http://ru.wikivoyage.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F:%D0%92%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4/Digr a very active and long-standing Wikivoyager]. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:20, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

:::The runner up should be considered again, naturally (its close similarity to the Meta logo was the objection raised by people who didn't support it last time). But we discussed having another go at creating the best possible logo back then anyway, so why not do another round of submissions. We're rushed once again, but we at least have the ''potential'' to do things better this time. That potential might be (or looks likely to be?) squandered if this becomes more about creating a one-size-fits-all process for choosing logos, that isn't at all tailored to the particulars of Wikivoyage, its culture, and its size. We're painfully aware of what went wrong in the last selection process (not just for the icon), which regularly produced the stalest, safest, least exciting, and least "Wikivoyagey" results possible--a really stark contrast with all the exciting aesthetic work we've done locally since, all consensually, professionally, cordially, and crucially without voting.

:::We would prefer/expected to use the lessons learned last time. But it's looking like this has all been taken out of our hands. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 20:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

::::Peter, I can understand your concerns, but as I noted above this is a conversation in advance of the logo selection procedure. It would be very different if we had announced the problem and simultaneously said, "We're doing a new logo selection, and we're doing it like this." That's not what this is about. :) We're here to collaborate. Philippe explained above why LCA would prefer standardization - and you actually highlight its necessity here, since in terms of the movement it makes sense for you to share what you've learned from what went wrong and help build a process that works for everyone - but that doesn't mean any system we build can't be ''flexible'' to the needs of the situation. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 13:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

:::That contributor has done some great work on both the en: and ru: projects, but I was taking issue with the similar design and the large amount of support despite reservations being mentioned many times. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

== Some input from the Wikidata logo selection ==

Not too long ago we've done this whole thing for the Wikidata logo. The one important take-away for me was that it would have been a very good idea to give a recommendation for the licensing, especially when uploaded to Commons. People were very confused about what is ok and what is not - especially given the requirement to give a license to the Foundation. --[[User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|talk]]) 15:07, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

: I think that is a very important point for a travel site. There is the possibility of the Wikivoyage logo being misused for commercial purposes if it is not copyright from the start. The maximum protection must be available to stop hotels displaying our logo in their window to imply approval. Could all uploads of logo drafts be made WMF copyright. After the selection is over any logos that are not similar to the final choice could be realeased as copyleft. [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] ([[User talk:AlasdairW|talk]]) 17:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::I'd be keen to hear some clarification of this. Having already uploaded some suggestions, I'd like to know whether I should license them to the WMF as suggested above. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::I'll ask our attorneys and get back with you on that one. :) I don't see why it would be a problem, if the community think it's a good idea, but with legal questions always best to get the input of our lawyers! --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::::(Asked. Will post response as soon as I get one. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 18:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC))

:::::That's great! Thanks! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 18:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

*In terms of transfer of rights in every submission prior to selection (temporarily, for those which aren't selected), I spoke to Michelle Paulson who says that we can certainly do this, if that's what you want. As [[User:AlasdairW|AlasdairW]] wisely points out, the rules would need to specify that logos that aren't similar to the final choice would be released as copyleft, so we avoid people making derivatives that are close to our logos. :) Meanwhile, if copyright to WMF is not preferred, we can certainly create clarity around recommended licenses (or license). There are challenges to consider there, of course, including license limitations of whichever project hosts the submissions, since Commons and Meta currently do not permit non-commercial licenses. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 20:05, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks for the update! :) So if I'm happy to license my suggestions to the WMF (which I am) I should do so? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] [[User_talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]] 21:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
:::You ''can'' do that. I think we might need to figure out if that's a requirement change that the community is comfortable with before I stay you ''should'' do that. :D --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 21:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
::Commons allows WMF-copyrighted logos even though they're technically non-free. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:31, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
:::Yes, this is true - but they don't allow other non-free content, which is why I mention that if copyright to WMF is ''not'' preferred, license requirements need to conform to the policy of whoever hosts the images. --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

== Copy-edit ... a few queries ==

I've run through it with no intention of changing intended meanings. In a few places, intended meanings were hard to work out. There was a bit of disorganisation. And I've put subheadings in. I noticed quite a few snags for translators, who could easily grasp unintended meanings from the English (e.g. "who will be analyzing"—marked tense for a mental clause, unnecessary and unusual even in English, would cause knotted brows; I changed it to the unmarked "who will analyze"; there are lots of traps in this text).

"The winner will be the logo that receives the most points."—Is this a safe blanket statement to make at the end? I'm unsure why the para I've headed "Summary" needs to be there at all, actually.

I don't understand what "mod period" refers to.

Can the references to time intervals be expressed consistently as business days where they involve staff input in the example timeline?

I can't ''imagine'' why those obstructive translation templates have to be littered within almost every single point. In any case, they make numbered editing impossible. Then it wouldn't save because of them, so I took the fine-grained ones out: good riddance. Where is this system explained so that people can edit text?

Here's [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Logo_selection_procedure&diff=5535002&oldid=5525448 the diff]. I'd be please if my edits were checked through. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 05:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
:I have raised with John Harald Soby, who I believe was one of the designers of the translate template system, (1) why it is helpful to translators to mark up text at the bullet-point level (I can't imagine why); and (2) why there are no instructions to ordinary editors on how to edit ''around'' the templates in edit-mode. Not many non-translators want to endure a long tutorial on how to use the system fully. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 06:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-02T01:25:59Z

JamesA: /* Why not take the runner-up of the first selection process? */ +re

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-01T11:38:54Z

JamesA: /* Why not take the runner-up of the first selection process? */ +cmt

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-01T06:38:45Z

JamesA: /* Purpose of page; pending logo selection */ +re

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-01T01:56:19Z

JamesA: /* Purpose of page; pending logo selection */ better choice of words

Talk:Logo selection procedure

2013-06-01T01:55:44Z

JamesA: /* Purpose of page; pending logo selection */ +cmt

Talk:List of Wikimedia projects by size

2013-05-28T06:13:01Z

JamesA: /* Wikivoyage */ new section

Cool! I like. Makes a change from adding up the numbers using pencil and paper. [[User:GeorgeStepanek|GeorgeStepanek]] 07:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

== Nostalgia ==

"<nowiki>Nostalgia (closed) at http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/</nowiki>" <-- I am doing some historical research. If there is anyone who understands how to track the history of Wikipedia articles ([http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&oldid=40277 example]) back to their earliest creation, please contact me. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSurf]] 15:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

==IP problem==

I have made a big problem. Please forgive me. To sysops, please revert this and update it for me. Thank you! [[User:203.76.212.94|203.76.212.94]] 02:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

== It is not the size of the wave... ==

... but the motion in the ocean of data... with how much this thing is growing, how is it possible to manage these pages effectively? It seems a bit clunky to me with large datasets. [[User:Dsgncr8or|Dsgncr8or]] 02:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

== 'Good' / 'Total' ==

Can someone explain exactly what these mean? [[User:128.250.37.103|128.250.37.103]] 06:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:'''Totals''' Good are actual articles with content; total includes redirects. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] 21:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:The totals also include talk pages, project pages, image description pages, templates, and so on. So "good" is supposed to be a better indicator of how developed the project actually is. – [[User:Mxn|Minh Nguyễn]] ([[User talk:Mxn|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Mxn|contribs]]) 05:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

== Difference in numbers... ==

So this table tops off at 725. The CheckUsage tool on Commons comes back with "736 wikis searched". Are there 11 projects that are missing from this table? [[User:EVula|EVula]] // [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|☯]] // 05:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:Yes. There are Wikimedia Projects that have Statistics Pages with restricted access to Admins, Sysops and Bureaucrats only. [[User:RobiH|RobiH]] 06:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== The table is broken ==

Items of type 'wikiversity' in the table are coloured white instead of the colour shown in the key at the top.

Seeing as this is done by a script I don't know how (if it's even possible for me, which I doubt) to fix it. {{unsigned|Diggsey}}

:The generated text is emitting "background: white", so I think it needs to be fixed by the generator.
:Thanks for spotting this error.
:[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 00:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

::This is not the only problem. Special pages names should be updated as well. (Imagelist --> FileList, Recentchanges --> RecentChanges) May be also remove the last column to reduce the size of the generated wikitext. --[[User:Meno25|Meno25]] 10:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

::I am the one who generates the code, i did not notice this before but it has now been added as a task to be fixed soon. [[User:Mutante|Mutante]] 14:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC) [http://s23.org/wiki/Wikistats/ToDo]

:::Fixed the color and the Special page names. [[User:Mutante|Mutante]] 19:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

== Sortability ==
The coloured boxes in the "type"-column should have a kind of blind or readable text (specifying the project's name), so that there is also given a sortability according to the projet types. It says, the table is created and maintained automatically, so I didn't add that feature on my own without asking. It would be kind if the bot is adapted accordingly if necessary. Regards, [[User:Carbenium|Carbenium]] 23:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

== User / Active User ==

What's a user and active user? Does user include every single IP?--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] 05:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

== [[Wikivoyage]] ==

Wikivoyage's current 14 language versions needs to be added to the list. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:13, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Template:Active Wikivoyage

2013-05-28T05:29:00Z

JamesA: +greek

[[:voy:de:Hauptseite|Deutsch]] (de) •
[[:voy:en:Main Page|English]] (en) •
[[:voy:es:Página_principal|Español]] (es) •
[[:voy:fr:Accueil|Français]] (fr) •
[[:voy:it:Pagina principale|Italiano]] (it) •
[[:voy:nl:Hoofdpagina|Nederlands]] (nl) •
[[:voy:pl:Strona_główna|Polski]] (pl) •
[[:voy:pt:Página_principal|Português]] (pt) •
[[:voy:sv:Huvudsida|Svenska]] (sv) •
[[:voy:ro:Pagina_principală|Română]] (nl) •

[[:voy:el:Κύρια Σελίδα|ελληνικά]] (el) •

[[:voy:ru:Заглавная страница|Русский]] (ru) •
[[:voy:uk:Головна_сторінка|Українська]] (uk) •


[[:voy:he:עמוד_ראשי|עברית]] (he) •







{{edi|Active Wikivoyage}}<noinclude>
----
'''Other languages not included (disabled)''' 

'''Other languages not included (no Wikivoyage yet)''' 













[[Category:Active Wikimedia project templates|Wikivoyage]]
</noinclude>

Wikivoyage

2013-05-28T05:25:40Z

JamesA: /* Languages */ +greek

{{Languages}}
{{TNT|Project lists}}
[[File:Wikivoyage-logo-en-TTO-attempt.svg|200px|right|link=//wikivoyage.org/|alt=Project logo: a red and a green arrow wrap in opposite directions around a sphere, the top and bottom of which are delineated with blue, depicting a globe or "blue marble" Earth]]


[http://wikivoyage.org '''Wikivoyage'''] is the travel guide anyone can edit. After a period of beta starting November 10, 2012, we formally launched on Wikimedia Foundation servers on January 15, 2013.

Wikivoyage brings together the former Wikitravel community and content (in several languages), the German language Wikivoyage community, who had forked from Wikitravel in 2006, and the Italian Wikivoyage community, who had forked from Wikitravel in 2007, with the larger free content worldwide Wikimedia movement community. We look forward to continuing our always amazing travel guide writing experience with everyone! Thanks for supporting Wikivoyage!

'''[[Wikivoyage/Why]]?''' (Go ahead, click on that link and write there why ''we'' are here and not at Wikitravel. This story needs telling. And this is a wiki.)

__TOC__
{{:Wikivoyage/Gallery}}
==Lounge==
The '''[[Wikivoyage/Lounge|Lounge]]''' is for general discussion of the Wikivoyage project and matters affecting more than one language version. Welcome!

==Email list==
'''[https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikivoyage-l Join the Wikivoyage-l email list]''' discussing technical and community matters by email.

==Currently going on==
* '''Urgent!''' ''Please help with cleanup'' on:
*: [[:voy:Wikivoyage:Cleanup|English]]
*: [[:voy:de:Wikivoyage:Cleanup|German]]
*: [[:voy:it:Wikivoyage:Cleanup|Italian]]
*: [[:voy:nl:Wikivoyage:Opruimen|Dutch]]
*: [[:voy:sv:Wikivoyage:Flyttstädning|Swedish]]
*:and then, once the language versions you are able to help on are fairly well sorted, help on:
*: [[:Commons:Commons talk:Wikitravel Shared transfer task force|Commons]]
*[[:voy:Wikivoyage:User_account_migration|Migrate your account]]
*[[mw:Wikivoyage migration|Technical migration work]] (at Mediawiki.org)

[[Category:Wikivoyage| ]]
[[Category:Travel Guide]]

==Languages==

There are currently '''13''' language versions of Wikivoyage:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! Language !! URL !! Language code !! Creation date
|-
| German
| http://de.wikivoyage.org/
| de
| 2006-12-10
|-
| English
| http://en.wikivoyage.org/
| en
| 2012-09-23
|-
| French
| http://fr.wikivoyage.org/
| fr
| 2012-10-03
|-
| Hebrew
| http://he.wikivoyage.org/
| he
| 2013-03-21
|-
| Italian
| http://it.wikivoyage.org/
| it
| 2007-12-10
|-
| Dutch
| http://nl.wikivoyage.org/
| nl
| 2012-09-29
|-
| Polish
| http://pl.wikivoyage.org/
| pl
| 2013-02-06
|-
| Portuguese
| http://pt.wikivoyage.org/
| pt
| 2013-01-07
|-
| Romanian
| http://ro.wikivoyage.org/
| ro
| 2013-02-06
|-
| Russian
| http://ru.wikivoyage.org/
| ru
| 2012-10-18
|-
| Swedish
| http://sv.wikivoyage.org/
| sv
| 2012-10-06
|-
| Spanish
| http://es.wikivoyage.org/
| es
| 2013-01-07
|-
| Ukrainian
| http://uk.wikivoyage.org/
| uk
| 2013-03-21
|-
| Greek
| http://el.wikivoyage.org/
| el
| 2013-05-17
|}

New language versions can be started on [[incubator:|Wikimedia Incubator]]. If they grow large enough and develop a strong community there, they will be moved to their own subdomain. See the list of [[incubator:Incubator:Wikis#Wikivoyage|Wikivoyage projects on Incubator]], and the queue of [[incubator:Incubator:Wikivoyage_import#Ex-Wikitravel_editions|projects to be started]] there.

== Wikivoyage Association ==

The [[Wikivoyage Association]] used to host the Wikivoyage project. Now it's applying to become a Wikimedia thematic organisation. You can apply for membership to support the association and the Wikivoyage project.

==How do I learn more?==
Start with these to find out more about our project:
* [[Wikivoyage/Lounge|Lounge]] – Wikivoyage Lounge on Meta
* [[Wikivoyage/Goals and non-goals|Goals and non-goals]]: "Wikivoyage is a project to create a free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide."
* [[Wikivoyage/Manual of style|Manual of style]]: Our Manual of style contains a collection of guidelines for giving our articles a good look and feel.
* [[Wikivoyage/Writing style|Writing style]]
* [[Wikivoyage/Welcome, Wikipedians|Welcome, Wikipedians]]: This article was written specially for people who are familiar with the free encyclopedia Wikipedia.

===Category===
<categorytree mode=pages>Wikivoyage</categorytree>
===Subpages===
Because Meta is a vast and wild wiki, we maintain our Meta Wikivoyage specific pages as subpages (eg Wikivoyage/Somepage). This makes it obvious they are part of our project and makes it easy to find and update them. All our pages are in English with the exception that translations, when desired, may be created as language code subpages of the respective English page (eg in German: Wikivoyage/Somepage/de).
{{Special:PrefixIndex/Wikivoyage/}}

The '''travel guide project proposal,''' formerly on this page, is archived in [[Wikivoyage/Archive/2012-11-16]] and [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Archive/2012-11-16|its talk page]].

Wikivoyage/Lounge

2013-04-11T12:12:38Z

JamesA: /* Social media */ +notice

[[File:Zrh lx swiss lounge bar area.jpg|400px|thumb|The Zürich Airport Lounge Bar]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__ [[Category:Wikivoyage]]

<div style="font-size:larger;">
This is the '''Wikivoyage Lounge on Meta''' where we discuss the Wikivoyage project in general and issues related to more than one language version. Old discussions are [[Wikivoyage/Lounge/Archive|archived]].

<div style="border:none; padding:2%; margin-bottom:2%; margin-top:2%; text-align:center; font-weight:bold; font-size:larger;">'''[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage/Lounge&action=edit&section=new Please click here to begin a new discussion]'''
</div>
</div>

__TOC__

== Start a new language version ==

What needs to happen to get other language versions up?
Out main page currently lists seven, while the sidbar
on the WT en main page gives:

ar: الصفحة الرئيسية
ca: Pàgina principal
de: Hauptseite
eo: Ĉefpaĝo
es: Portada
fi: Etusivu
fr: Accueil
he: עמוד ראשי
hi: मुखपृष्ठ
hu: Kezdőlap
it: Pagina principale
ja: メインページ
ko: 대문
nl: Hoofdpagina
pl: Strona główna
pt: Página principal
ro: Portal
ru: Заглавная страница
sv: Huvudsida
zh: 首页

I saw discussion somewhere of problems bringing up the
Portuguese version. What of the rest? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 11:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
: You have to import the XML dumps into Wikimedia Incubator to start a new language version. Please see [[:voy:de:Wikivoyage:Lounge#Wikivoyage_im_Incubator]].--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 15:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Good start! ==
Hello, This place looks nice. I like the picture. That's a good start! [[User:Yann|Yann]] ([[User talk:Yann|talk]]) 12:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks! It's the traditional picture of Wikivoyage Lounges. On the continent, we prefer the Lounge to the Pub. ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 15:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Travel photo of the month ==

In German Wikivoyage each month we select a travel destination of the month that is featured on the wiki's main page. I would like to suggest to have the Travel photo of the month in the banner of the [[Wikivoyage]] portal on Meta picked by a different language community every month. What do you think about it? (Thx to Rogerhc for bringing up the issue on my user discussion page!) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

== Update on Internet Brands v. Holliday ==
Cf. http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/19/update-on-internet-brands-v-holliday/ --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 08:25, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
:See also: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/28/update-to-internet-brands-travel-site-lawsuit/ --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 22:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

== Wikivoyage in French ==
They're a problem with the linking to wikipedia article in french wikivoyage. The template WikiPedia:article always link us to the english wikipedia. I've made some changes and i must use WikiPedia:fr:article to go the french side. This will become problematic as most user will not use the :fr to go to the french version. I've not seen how i can change that in french:wikivoyage and i'm not a very good at using template and programmation. How can we fix this thing. Maybe colleague from the nederland or sverige wikivoyage have answer to this problem.
,
On a more content side i will say that things are starting slowly. Theres a lack of old participants that know the guideline and policies of wikivoyage. So the content part is starting slowly. Not a lot of participant, much less than the english version. But already they are some interesting addition in article. Some wikipedians from the french wikipedia come by and some old wikitravellers also. I will stay in touch here. Excuse my english, hope you're able to understand me. -- [[User:ChristianT|ChristianT]] ([[User talk:ChristianT|talk]]) 12:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

:The w: and wikipedia: links are [[talk:interwiki map|interwiki prefixes]], not templates (modèle). As the list of these prefixes is shared between all Wikimedia projects, it is not possible to fix this by editing a template. The only likely solution is to use some sort of robot script that replaces [[WikiPedia: in every article with something else, such as [[wikipedia:fr: or a template link. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 12:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
: Indeed, <nowiki>[[:wikipedia:fr:xxx]]</nowiki> for the time being seems to be the only option.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
::[[voy:fr:w:]] points at French Wikipedia whereas [[voy:fr:wikipedia:]] points at English Wikipedia. Can't you just use "w:" instead of "wikipedia:" everywhere? --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 16:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
:::wikipedia: links are moved to the sidebar on article pages, w: links are not - this isn't the same as the convention on Wikipédia itself (where articles have a == Liens externes == section for external links) but is the Wikivoyage convention. That creates a problem for all of our existing non-English articles with sidebar links to what should have been the same-language Wikipedia, but instead is w:en: [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 16:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI: We have a new template [[voy:de:Vorlage:Wikipedia]] in Germany WV for linking to Wikipedia in the sidebar, and we use the w: prefix in other places.

I've already realised that French WV is starting very slowly, and I can say for German WV that we are rather busy at the moment. However, I expect the project to take another half year or so at least to fix all the redlinks and to adapt to Wikimedia standards.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 17:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

BTW, Wikivoyage does not seem to be that popular amongst French-speaking Wikipedians: [[fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/11 novembre 2012#Wikivoyage]] --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:29, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:That doesn't surprise me; there are 3000 <nowiki>{{wikitravel}}</nowiki> templates (and its aliases) on en: pages awaiting robotic disposal (template was voted for deletion as Wikivoyage has the same content locally), on fr: it was 30 pages instead of 3000 and they were all replaced with <nowiki>{{autres projets}}</nowiki> manually. Maybe, because fr: is a smaller community, they're more likely to focus on just one project (Wikipédia) instead of dividing their efforts among multiple siblings? [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 01:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

==Official launch==
When should we launch officially? Have been looking around WV and it appears that about half the images are working. What percentage should be fixed before we begin advertising the site? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 05:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:The German one looks quite good. Features and all templates are working, als well as maps and coordinates and all infoboxes. Mostly the interwiki stuff is to be done and adapting some templates to WMF standards. We would say: Around Christmas. What do you think? -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:: Russian Wikivoyage has most of the images redlinks. If the images are done before Christmas, I guess we should be fine, the rest of the work will probably be completed by then.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::What is the best time to launch with respect to a media campaign? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 14:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

::::Let me think. Ymblanter's message is showing a problem to us. It seems, the transfer bots focus on the main uploaders first. So the images of en: and de: will be uploaded first. OK other language version use these images as well. But the other language versions will be fall behind. Sounds a bit uncomfortable to me. But have no idea, what to do. Just checking the situation again in two weeks? Would love to see all language version starting here with the same level. Have prepared a bottle of a nice drink here... Any chance to help? Should we upload images from the smaller language version by hand? Is help needed with templates interwiki or something? -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 21:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::Please do not start early. We should have more redlinks fixed in de.voy before leaving beta officially.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 22:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::: We are definitely unable to start before Christmas. Since holidays may be bad time for any media campaign, we should think about first part of January or any later date, which is suitable for advertising the site. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 22:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::experience suggests thats its best not to think in terms of media campaigns. The reality is that due to copyright issues there are going to be quite a lot of redlinks around whatever. Best approach is probably to work out what the most viewed pages are and fix the redlinks on those. Currently you are tending towards letting perfect be the enemy of good and that never ends well in the context of wikis.[[User:Geni|Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 08:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::: We (on Russian Wikivoyage) can get rid of redlinks in a couple of days just replacing them with valid images from Commons. I just do not think this is fair to contributors who previously spent time to search for appropriate images, sometimes to upload them, and now they would suddenly find that their images are gone from the WV pages just because we screwed up the process and wanted to open soon.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::@Aschmidt: Just suggested a recheck intwoo weeks. Not leaving beta. We should do it just to get informed about the situation on all the language versions. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 13:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
:I'd suspect that the timing of media attention to the case isn't something which can be tightly controlled. It's going to be on the radar at whatever moment the last of the IB litigation (and any counterclaims) reaches final judgement... whether we are ready with images for launch at that time or not. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 14:26, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

== Logo round 2 ==

Voting in Round 2 of the Wikivoyage logo contest is underway at [[Wikivoyage/Logo]]. Have your say by supporting one or more choices, and/or participating in the discussion! [[User:This, that and the other|This, that and the other]] ([[User talk:This, that and the other|talk]]) 08:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

== Interwiki bots ==

Several days ago, Russian Wikivoyage became the first Wikivoyage project adopting [[Bot_policy/Implementation|The standart bot policy]]. We are now ready to host interwiki bots, who do not require any additional authorization. Is anybody interested in running an interwiki bot between different Wikivoyage versions? --[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 14:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

== Odd spot ==

[http://translate.google.com.au/#auto/en/DerFussi This] is really weird. Translating Stefan F's name into Ryan's... [[User:This, that and the other|This, that and the other]] ([[User talk:This, that and the other|talk]]) 10:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
:Very strange. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 18:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::hi hi: really strange. But I can confirm Stefan and Ryan are different persons. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

==Beta versus full launch==
WikiVoyage could potential launch in beta Nov 6th, 2012 on WMF servers. We have an issue surrounding moving images over to Commons (ie they will not all be their for a least a few weeks and thus some/most images will be red links). We are having a straw poll on if we should deal with images before a "beta" opening or defer any opening until after the images have been moved. Please weight in here [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Travel_Guide/Launch] [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 05:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

:I've noticed that the "it could be a bit bumpy while we're still in Beta" messages at the top of the English language version of Wikivoyage have now been removed recently. Does that mean that version is now out of Beta, please? --singapore[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|Alice]] 03:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
::The message has not been removed, although it's possible you dismissed it. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
:::You're right - I suppose it will be January now before the launch --singapore[[User_talk:Singapore.Alice|Alice]] 18:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

== Translation ==

Will "Wikivoyage" be translated for other languages? [[User:Gálaniitoluodda|Gálaniitoluodda]] ([[User talk:Gálaniitoluodda|talk]]) 16:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
* Depends on the language version. For Russian Wikivoyage, we are [[Talk:Wikivoyage/ru|running the poll]] right now. For the languages using the Latin alphabet is probably the most reasonable to leave it untranslated, but it is up to these communities.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
*: My instinct would be to transliterate the English/French term to the target language, rather than translate -- if only because we may end up with conflicts in languages that don't have different words for "Travel" and "Voyage". [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
*:: In Russian, transliteration does not really sound nicely.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

== Project lists ==

Hi, why scrapping the Project lists? It's the same for all pages with the name of a Wikimedia project. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 23:49, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
:I removed the page top banner box with the links to the other MWF Projects ([[template:project lists]]) because this page ([[Wikivoyage]]) is not about those. Meta's [[Main Page]] is a more appropriate place for those links and they do look quite nice there; anyone can get there from here with one click on the big WM logo at top left of every page. Meta [[Wikivoyage]] is the place for us to focus on Wikivoyage which is rather complex enough already. However, thanks for the warm welcome! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::I don't get it. :-) Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. have this template too, so what's the problem? By the way, on the Meta Wiki main page in German there is no Wikivoyage. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 22:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
:::The problem is we have enough distractions already, quite a bit of work to do and there is a place for focus, clarity and simplicity in our lives. Regarding links to Wikivoyage, Wikivoyage on WMF is still in '''beta''' and not ripe for publicity yet; we are missing thousands of essential images that must all be imported by hand apparently, and there are lots of details that require our focus. What is "Meta Wiki main page in German" by the way? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:25, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::::Please see [[Main Page/de]]. Remember that Meta is multiligual. WV should be added there, of course. And if a template is used on other projects' sites, it should also be on the Wikivoyage page on Meta. I am going to add it again in a moment.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
::::I've added Wikivoyage to the English and to the German main page template of WM projects.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:04, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
::::It's been reverted because it's still beta and hence not fit for the main page...--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:18, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:No need to be afraid that this link will reach a lot of people - it's even on the main page of WP. :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 19:57, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
::Dewiki only. ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 21:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:::You mean de.WP? :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 17:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
::::dewiki/enwiki normally means de/en.wikipedia, Yes. It's a bad habit, but it's the way it looks on wmf-sites, no matter we like it or not. -- [[User:Lavallen|Lavallen]] 14:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Does it? And even if, bad habits are to be changed. "Wiki" as an abbreviation for "Wikipedia" is one of the poorest of them all. :-) [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 14:43, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
::::wp.de = de.wp = dewiki, with dewiki more often being used on the more technical platforms, I'm afraid… sorry for causing the confusion… ;) but dewiki still seems to be the only platform to have put devoy ;) on its main page.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 23:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC) …except for dewikiversity, of course… ;) --[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 00:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

== Finnish ==

Could someone create subdomain for Finnish language? There is quite many Finnish articles in Wikitravel, which could be imported to Wikivoyage. --[[User:Olli|Olli]] ([[User talk:Olli|talk]]) 10:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
:There is already a [[Incubator:Incubator:Wikis#Wikivoyage|Finnish version on incubator]]. It will be available under wikivoyage.org as soon as the community is strong enough to be viable as a language version of its own.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 18:40, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
: If the former WT Finnish community is still around, I guess a request could be filed directly to Langcom, without having the Incubator version first. If there is no community, I think it is better indeed to go through the incubator.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
:: It's probably better to import the Finnish version of Wikitravel instead of restarting from scratch. Also, Finnish was one of the languages which got enough votes on the Wikivoyage e.V. site to allow the project to be opened there, although a few of the language versions with enough votes (e.g. Finnish) never opened, for some unknown reason. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 23:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
::: The reason is as follows. These votes appeared after the migration of en: in the end of August. At that time only four other languages had got sufficient support, while others were left for the future. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 23:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
::::At the end there was now time, because we started the migration to the WMF. But the finish content is available. Maybe the WMF should be asked whether they can import it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::See also [[incubator:Incubator:Wikivoyage import]]. It seems that there are plans to import more languages and that the first ones will be imported on 1 December. I hope that Finnish and the other languages will follow later. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 12:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
::So, will the Finnish Wikivoyage be published in near future or not? Is there really a need to configure the Incubator or something? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 15:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
:::The [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Spanish|Spanish]] and [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Portuguese|Portuguese]] Wikivoyages are being created right now. I think [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Romanian|Romanian]] will be next, and hopefully the others will be created soon after. It might be helpful to create a request for Finnish [[Language committee/Handbook (requesters)|here]] and fill in the correct settings. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 16:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Thanks for a tip. Now I have created the [[Requests_for_new_languages/Wikivoyage_Finnish|request for Finnish WV]]. --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 18:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::: As I understand the 8 language editions have long been "Approved" for import (-> [[Requests for new languages#Wikivoyage]] or earlier in [[Wikivoyage/New language versions]]) but nobody feels responsible, and except talk nothing productive happens. Or who can finally import it? --[[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 18:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::The developers are working on creating the Spanish [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42933] and Portuguese [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42934] versions right now. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 18:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::: And what is the status or where is the problem with all the other approved language versions? What are we waiting for? --[[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 19:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::::As I just said, the developers are working on Spanish and Portuguese first (those versions got the most support on their request pages), and the others will be next. Also, the remaining versions (besides Romanian and Finnish) don't have a request page yet with the needed settings. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 22:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
::::::::: OK, now I've created also a polish request page with the settings -> [[Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Polish]] -- [[User:Alan ffm|Alan ffm]] ([[User talk:Alan ffm|talk]]) 01:24, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::There are already the Spanish and Porguguese versions visible. When the Finnish version Wikivoyage is expected to be started? --[[User:Kulmalukko|Kulmalukko]] ([[User talk:Kulmalukko|talk]]) 08:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not sure what the delay is now. You could try asking [[User:MF-Warburg]]. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 21:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

== Italian Wikivoyage ==
:''See also [[stats:wikivoyage/EN/TablesWikipediaIT.htm]]
At this time voyage/it has only two active contributors assiduously I think it is better to move it on incubator until there is an adequate number of contributors [[Special:Contributions/82.51.127.28|82.51.127.28]] 21:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
:Why is it better? The project is more active than most small wikis. And as far I can see there's also not much vandalism/spam. Greetings, [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 21:04, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
::Because two contributors is not yet a community but a personal site for a wikimedia major project in the near future and if I'm not mistaken wikimedia requires more than three users for a project[[Special:Contributions/82.51.127.28|82.51.127.28]] 21:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
::: To get out of the incubator, there should be five active users. But here we talk about an existing project, with a lot of content to be maintained. Nobody closes existing projects just because some active users have left.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 01:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::::It's probably safe to say that wv/it will gain contributors once we leave Beta and put up a notice, send out the press release, etc. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 01:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
::::: Absolutely.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 02:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
:Regardless, it will not be closed with two active contributors and an existing body of content for sure. The solution at most would be to get involved with it, rather than asking for it to be moved back to the incubator. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 05:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

==Legacy admin rights==
Where do we request legacy admin rights for "new" language versions? es and pt both currently have no admins! Texugo needs bureaucrat rights for :es and :pt, I need them for :es only. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 17:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
* I would normally expect elections running for a week, and if the result is successfull, request the rights on Meta.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
:Rather than do that every time, couldn't we have a discussion here demonstrating that there is support for legacy rights? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 05:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
::'''Support''' -- Peter and Texugo for admin and bureaucrat rights per Peter's above request. ''Please'' make it so before January 15 public launch. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
:::I'd argue that getting legacy rights (so if a user had adminship on the old equivalent Wikivoyage language version) shouldn't require any particular votes/discussion but rather could be just granted as "part of the migration". [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 18:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
::::The users active in es.wy are currently holding sysop elections at [[:es:voy:Wikiviajes:Elección de administradores temporales]]. I'd think everyone who wants to be an admin there should candidate there as well. If a user previously was an active contributor and sysop already on Wikitravel, his request for adminship will probably met with approval by the community. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 19:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 18:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' I think that people who had a sysop or bureaucrat flag at Wikitravel should have the same flag here, unless the person is employed by Internet Brands. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 21:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I´m still wondering how I can get the burocrat/admin rights on pt:/es:. Can anyone help me out here? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 16:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
:You can make a request at [[Steward requests/Permissions]]. –[[User:Sumone10154|'''sumone10154''']]([[User talk:Sumone10154|talk]]) 21:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
::I personally would disagree the fact that these five users reflect community consensus. To me, in the cases of the Spanish and Portuguese communities, this wikis were not set up from wikitravel, but from various wikis that had, on their turn, used Wikitravel's contents. They are as such, in my eyes, new projects, and in the case of the Spanish Wikivoyage already have a far bigger involved community. I disagree, thus, that these users are granted adminship over there without any local process, as a kind of back-door deal. There is a big difference between Wikitravel and here, where Global Sysops and stewards can act in emergencies, and it is therefore IMO unnecesary to flag users who don't speak the language fluently, even if they did help build the content that is now on Wikivoyage. And for the record, I {{oppose}} this general rule, going through an RfA on two projects is no big deal, and this would show that the user has the trust of the community, which IMO an admin should have at all moments. [[User:Savh|'''S'''a]][[User talk:Savh|vh]][[:es:User:Savh|ñ]] 16:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
:::Thanks for joining the discussion, Savh. I think the :es community made it clear that they want a clean break from the history of the project pre:WMF move. That's a little bit of a surprise for the people who worked to make that move possible, but the :es community on WT wasn't very big or active for the past several years.
:::I hope you will follow developments on this page, so you can relay them back to the rest of the :es community that might not be following Meta discussions regarding Wikivoyage. In particular, we are working on potential major feature development, and I'm a little worried that the :es version has been diverging from the rest of our project to make it so different from the rest of Wikivoyage that it won't be able to benefit from new proposed features. But if you join such discussions (which are about to start here), then you should be able to preserve some integration with the rest of Wikivoyage. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 00:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
:::: Btw generally do we have all communities involved? I had contacts at different stages with representatives of German, English, Dutch, Russian and Swedish Wikivoyage, but I do not think I have ever seen anybody from French, Italian, Portuguese or Spanish Wikivoyage, at least not I know of (obviously I know that Particio Lorente was elected an es.wv admin and that he is a Board member, but this is about it).--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 09:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

== Spanish and Portuguese language versions ==

They are up! See [[voy:es:Página_principal]] and [[voy:pt:Página_principal]].Welcome to the family! :-) --[[User:Globe-trotter|Globe-trotter]] ([[User talk:Globe-trotter|talk]]) 21:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

== Social media ==

I notice the twitter account http://twitter.com/wikivoyage still uses the old logo and description?

Also there are several Wikivoyage facebook pages - and I'm not sure which is the official one - http://www.facebook.com/wikivoyage goes to a German language one (again, with the old logo). -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] ([[User talk:Chuq|talk]]) 06:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

:Yeah. I've noticed it last weekend. This reminds me to my duties. Thanks. I will change it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

:I have renamed our old wikivoyage facebook site to the "Wikivoyage - deutsch" because its related to the German content. After getting some likes I have grabbed an other Facebook page: [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wikivoyage/458314297538270]. This one can be used for the whole project. Anybody interested in admin it? I suffer from lack of time. You can contact/add me on facebook ([https://www.facebook.com/DerFussi]). -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 12:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

::It may be best to have just one per language; I'm not sure how a multi-language page would work. I created and admin'ed the Wikitravel FB page until I handed it over to IBobi; I've been thinking about setting one up for English Wikivoyage too. [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 15:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Sounds good. I've just grabbed the other one just because of somebody use the like button. Facebook seems to display pages even when somebody did not created it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

::::You guys may be interested in a discussion I started a few days ago [http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Facebook_page here]. I wasn't even aware of this discussion. We're planning on making one Wikivoyage English Facebook page with the name "Wikivoyage", and preferably the domain facebook.com/wikivoyage, although that leads to the de page right now. As English is generally the lingua franca of the internet, I think cross-wiki issues are best broadcast through that page. Also, there are methods on Facebook to claim ownership of the various pages and create one, unified page through merging, something we'd want to look into. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:22, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

*'''Notice''' - In case anyone missed it, Wikivoyage English now has an official, regularly-updated Facebook page at [https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wikivoyage/499207033469099]. Please go ahead and like us! :) [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

== New feature developments ==

It appears this page can sometimes be neglected, but I thought other language versions may benefit from discussions at [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap#Long_term_goals]] and [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#News_from_the_German_WV_guys]]. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

== wikivoyage.eu ==

Apologies if this is being discussed elsewhere, but is there a plan to update [http://wikivoyage.eu] to the new website location? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 02:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

:The move of the domain from the WV association to the WMF is still in process. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 06:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

:: I guess the ownership isn't as important as the IP. Can't it just be made a CNAME? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 00:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:::I don't think one can CNAME the base domain name, just the individual subdomains. Redirecting it (HTTP error 302) should work, maybe they could do that? Changing the domain name server to point at a Wikimedia IPv4/IPv6 address only works if the Wikimedia servers are configured to return a sensible response to a request for the domain. [[User:K7L|K7L]] ([[User talk:K7L|talk]]) 00:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:::: If we're going to the effort of redirects, then it is only the portal page that responds to the .eu address. Every link from there goes to wikivoyage-old.org. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 05:02, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

== Interlingual Portal ==

On EN we're currently attempting to overhaul our main pages for both desktop computers and mobile devices and I thought it might also be nice to have a look at what we could do with the Interlingual Portal as it was earmarked for improvement on the [[Wikivoyage:Roadmap#Improve_Main_Page|Roadmap]]. I assume it's made in pure HTML, so is probably harder to edit collaboratively. What sort of things would we like to see? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
: When you write "the Interlingual Portal", do you mean [[Www.wikivoyage.org template]] or [[Wikivoyage]]? --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 12:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
::I mean the [[www.wikivoyage.org template]] in this case. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 14:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

==Style pages on Meta==

I just noticed there are a bunch of style "policy" pages on Meta/Wikivoyage (see [[special:allpages/Wikivoyage]]). What is their purpose, given that language versions have autonomy to develop their own style policies? I note that they are quite out-of-step with :en's policies. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 00:48, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
: What exactly style policy pages do you mean? Most of the pages listed there are old service pages needed for different activities during the transition period, and are now historical.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

== New Interlingual Portal ==

Hi! A while ago I saw that one of the goals on the English [[Wikivoyage:Roadmap|Roadmap]] was to improve WV's interlingual portal. So, with that in mind, I tried my hand at making a new one. Unfortunately the page is made in HTML; not Wiki-markup so can't be viewed as yet, however, you can find the code [[voy:User:Nicholasjf21/Portal|here]] and a screenshot of the proposed design below. The background image is only 50kb so shouldn't cause any loading issues. I'm sure lots of the translations are very poor, so please let me know what they should be! The reason the Romanian link is separate is that it had the lowest number of articles and there's only room for 10 links around the logo. It would be joined by any new version that commenced now. Any thoughts would be much appreciated! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 02:26, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
[[File:Wikivoyage 20130318-021257.png|thumb|The proposed portal]]

:That looks really cool! (And about 1,000,000 times cooler than what we have right now.) There's a sort of telescope effect to the focus, like you are a voyager on the bow of a ship, searching for some destination ahead. It also harmonizes with our color scheme well. The transition from beautiful ocean to whaBAM gray box is pretty rough, though. Could they somehow be integrated into the image, or be placed into a different sort of graphic, with a frame? --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 04:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

::Thanks very much! I will try to smooth the transition a bit! In reality it shouldn't be quite as distressing on the eyes, as most users will have to scroll down to view the other links. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 09:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

:::I suspect that it may be difficult for some people to read dark blue text written on a light blue background. --[[User:Stefan2|Stefan2]] ([[User talk:Stefan2|talk]]) 10:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

::::Right- I've changed it a little in order to reflect some of the above opinions; I'll take a look at font colours later on. You can view it 'live' [http://njf1.webs.com/Wikivoyage%20Portal.html here]. Please ignore the chinese characters at the bottom - they are not part of the design, but something either inflicted upon me by the host or an internal WM script that won't work on that host. Any thoughts? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 15:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

'''Where and how''' are our and other WMF portal pages actually implemented? What pages, templates, etc. are involved? What roll does [[Www.wikivoyage.org portal]] play in this? --[[user:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[user talk:rogerhc|talk]]) 23:32, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:[[Www.wikipedia.org template]], [[Www.wikivoyage.org template]], [[Www.wikibooks.org template]], etc. Only Meta admins (and stewards) can edit these. See [[Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_template]] and [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org_template]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
::I see those templates take HTML. Good. That opens up possibilities. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:::There are instructions to request changes on [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org template]], on the box at the top. I replied to your question on [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org portal]] too. If you have any other questions about Meta-related stuff, feel free to ask and I'll try to help. ;) [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

===Mock 1===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org Mock 1.png|thumb|upright=2|right|Mock 1 version of proposal as of March 20, 2013]]
'''Mock 1: [[Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp sky background]]''' ''(It's HTML; to preview it, select "Preview HTML" from the drop down menu next to the Search box on that page.)'' I darkened the links, fit all 11 languages around the logo, removed the pedantic "Search" translations (so unlike us to pester travelers, who come first, with stuff they don't need), and removed the white background from Other Projects so that they show on the sky. How does it look? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 05:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

:Thanks for coming up with this new idea about the design. I like it. How about chaning backgrounud images? Just a handfull of images, randomly choosen. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 06:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::Like it. [[User:Gusta|Gusta]] ([[User talk:Gusta|talk]]) 16:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::I think the sky image only works because it is more a background gradient that an image. But anyone is welcome to prove me wrong. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

'''Please everyone who cares, speak up'''--shall we go like with '''[[Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp sky background|Mock 1]]''' for now? Dose it have any issues in various browsers or other issues you would like fixed first? Do you support going live with it? Got other versions to consider? Please pipe up. It would be great to have views from all WV language version communities. Thx! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:Should you advertise this on the various language editions of Wikivoyage or does everyone watch this page? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::Right, I will go advertise at each individual language version's community page... gotta run now though... so in a couple hours... when I'm back. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::So nobody can say this wasn't advertised: [[Meta:Babel#Change_Www.wikivoyage.org_template]], [[Wikimedia_Forum#Again_www.wikimedia.org_hasty_changes]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Just noticed it was already spammed on all the local community discussion pages. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Yes, sorry! I did that yesterday but forgot to tell everyone! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 00:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for notifying the communities. ;) I meant "spammed" in a good way, for what it's worth. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 02:15, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::To down a beer at each of 11 Pubs is to be smashed. Nick, you outdid me with the translations. I drank and ran before the locals could beat me up, I think. ;~] [[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Haha, I'm feeling a bit ill! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:44, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
====Comments on m1====
[[www.wikivoyage.org template/temp sky background]] is pretty. Eleven languages surrounding the Wikivoyage icon is a little awkward though. And it isn't totally obvious what the grid of (sister projects) icons is. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:True. The current [//www.wikivoyage.org www.wikivoyage.org] has these same defects and I haven't thought of any way to solve them. Suggestions? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not a designer, so I don't have any good suggestions on how to improve the page, but there are several things that I really dislike:
* The colored background image is opposite to the style of Wikivoyage and Wikimedia projects in general. They always use simple graphics and mild colors that look much better to my taste. It is kind of ridiculous to have this fancy image on the title page and lots of plain text in individual articles.
* Why do we need the words "Travel guide" written under each language? They look excessive.
* What shall we do with the 12th, 13th, etc. languages that will imminently appear?
* The links to sister projects are not well readable on this background. They take as much space as links to Wikivoyage itself and distract the reader.
--[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 06:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
: Few comments.
: - No issue neither with Chrome, Firefox nor IE with both the version of the main pages.
: - Comparing just the two versions I would say that the "fullscreen" image (second version) it's better than the first one, but from the first version I'll keep the number of articles because it give at the first glance an idea of the completeness of the project and a stimulus for the writer to do more (e.g. it.wikipeda.org has recently celebrate 1M articles).
: - Comparing these two voy home page versions with the other wiki's home pages, I agree with the first comment of Atsirlin, where he says that this style it's not coherent with the others and it's the only fullscreen image in the whole site. I don't say that's it's necessary a bad/wrong thing; it's just something to think of if it worths and/or make sense. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 07:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I think (if the words "Travel guide" are kept) for the Russian language the second line should be "Путеводитель" (travel guide), rather than "Туристический" (travellers') as it is now. --[[User:Л.П. Джепко|Л.П. Джепко]] ([[User talk:Л.П. Джепко|talk]]) 09:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:I see "Travel Guide" is a tricky translation in Russian. Could a few more Russian speakers comment please? Meanwhile, I have changed Mock 1 Russian tag line to "Путеводитель" and left the link title (hover text) as "Russkiy — wikivoyage — Туристический путеводитель". Is it right? Easy for me to cut and paste changes into the Mock; just let me know what the tag line and link title (hover text) should be in Russian. Same goes for other WV languages, too. I can only read and write English, myself. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 16:47, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:: Yes, "Путеводитель" seems to be the best option. It is a straightforward translation of Travel guide.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:: The hover text should be "Русский - Викигид - Путеводитель", all written in Cyrillic letters. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 19:07, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I also am not satisfied with Mock 1. I feel it
* is too dark, and
* has too much info pulling the user in too many directions.
I will try lightening it in a Mock 1.1 later today. As for simplifying the page, something like what Google.com looks like might work but may require a fresh start I. I personally feel we could skip the "portal" thing altogether and go direct to English, with a prominent Language switching element on page and a cookie to remember the users preferred language. However, if we are going to use a "portal" I am thinking making it primarily a Search box with everything else standing off in the wings like Google.com does it might work. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 17:09, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:1. Hi everyone! I like the general idea of Mock 1 but I also think that it looks a little too dark. It has no proper contrast between text and pictures and the bottom lines in Chinese look like the sort of mandatory information that has to be placed accordingly to local laws but that no one wants them to be read. However, this is my opinion on taking a look at the screenshot above and at the [http://njf1.webs.com/Wikivoyage%20Portal.html "live version"], since the command "preview html" is not working in my browser (Win 7 Pro / Firefox 19.0.2 / Adblock Plus deactivated).
:2. I think it would be a good idea to rotate pictures, which could be on a regular basis determined by whatever (season, country, time) but still should be using pictures which can make a good contrast with all the text around.
:3. I also like the distribution of text around the logo as a circle, since it could appear to be a telescope or a tire. But a distribution as wings could also be interesting. Wouldn't it? I also like having more languages around the logo, since a few ones (like the current 8 in the "live" version) make the whole image look like empty, as if something was missing or incomplete.
:4. Considering the current tag line, one better option for the Spanish title could be ''"La guía de viaje gratuita"'' (the free travel guide) instead ''"guía para viajar"'' (guide to travel), which is not a correct expression in Spanish.
:I guess that's all for the moment on this subject. Cheers from the es-wikivoyage! [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

===v2===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v2.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v2 as of March 21, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v2]], same as Mock 1 but with plain white background. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v2====
The Other Projects links have been let out of the coral and need to be wrangled back in again. I'll work on that. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:This one is more like the other portals (www.wikipedia.org, www.wiktionary.org, etc.). This could be considered good (branding, similarities) or bad (just the same idea with a different logo, etc.). [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 21:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Just go with eight or ten languages around the logo and start a "smaller projects" list. The current model isn't scalable. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 22:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:Lol! I just posted my comments on Mock 1... Anyway, I like this design as well but it looks somehow a little boring. I agree it looks more wiki-alike but I have the feeling that there's something missing that could give this general page a better sense of movement or fun. [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

: I like this version. Its idea is apparently copied from Wikipedia, but it looks nice and it is better than the previous version with colored background. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 18:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:This version is fine, but if I'm honest, probably no more than that - as [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] it's lacking a certain something. Personally I prefer the coloured background of the earlier prototype. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 19:16, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

===v3===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v3.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v3 as of March 22, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v3]], same as v2 but with Other Projects in the wings at page top. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v3====
Very nice indeed! That top bar looks great! I'd still like to see a return of the coloured background potentially, but this is really good! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 00:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I like this one a lot! --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 08:46, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I like it, but it still feels like something is missing.> [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 17:28, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

 

===v5===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v5.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v5 as of March 23, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v5]], same as v3 but with sky background.

v4? I did no submitted [[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v4|v4]], in which I experimented switching the emphasis in the language links, because having tried it I found it did not communicate well. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v5====

 

===v6===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v6.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v6 as of March 24, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v6]], same as v5 but with drop shadow highlighting on language links around logo. I will do same for "Wikivoyage"... no time right now... gotta run. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:14, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v6====
I really like this one. No further comments now. [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 00:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Very nice indeed - I like this a lot! I'm not completely sure about the shadows, but it is looking really good. The only thing is, there's a blue bar to the right hand side on the html preview - could we lose it? But really, great work Roger! :) --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
:I don't know what is causing the bottom scroll bar to think there is something to scroll right to see. Alas. However, I have now covered that mysterious space with background-size: 102% 100% -- hides the mysterious blue line to right of background which showed when background was width 100% 100% and you scroll right. I think I've used up about all my design momentum now. Hope it has helped. Think I will focus on getting the [[#Universal Language Selector]] extension configured for us and installed, next. I think that could make the portal obsolete anyway. Okay with me if we use portal v6 or any other meanwhile. Guess I like v6 best. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
::I think this is great, and, I think I've changed my mind about the shadows too! Now we need to see if we can attract a consensus! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 23:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
:This looks really great and original. I could see this being used on [//www.wikivoyage.org]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
::: I would just modify the Italian lable "Guida" into "Guida turistica", because the first one is very generic, while the second one is the exact translation of "Travel guide". I tried to ask comment in the it:lounge but no one reply since now. The rest is fine. --[[User:Andyrom75|Andyrom75]] ([[User talk:Andyrom75|talk]]) 19:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::::{{Done}} [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Www.wikivoyage.org_template/temp_v6&diff=5355270&oldid=5342322 diff] [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::The only issue now is that another language ([http://uk.wikivoyage.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0 Ukrainian]) has now been launched - we may need to move some links to the bottom again. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 22:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Also [[he:voy:|Hebrew]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Okay, added those to v6. Will refine the spacing after dinner. '''Please check''' the Hebrew and Ukrainian translations for me... --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
::::::::{{Done}}! '''Could an admin please take v6 live now?''' It is more up to date than the current live version (which lacks Hebrew and Ukrainian) and has consensus support above. Thanks! --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 02:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::You can add a request on [[RFH]] or [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org template]] (use {{tl|editprotected}}). BTW, the translations look fine to me, but I can have some users who can speak those languages check, if you'd like. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 03:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

::::::::::I've just put the 'other project' links in a table so they spread across the page equally. Hopefully we can get this implemented soon! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 15:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Undecided, but not opposed. I'm fine with the v6 if others want it. My misgivings with v6 are that it is too dark, too busy, and finally simply distracting. What does it mean, asks the viewer. Why am I looking at a sunset here? A plain white background is simpler too look at and does not leave the user wondering about these things. Hence, v7. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 00:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

===v7===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v7.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v7 as of April 1, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v7]], same as v6 but with plain white background.

====Comments on v7====
How is this different from v3? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
:v7 has:
:*Bigger "Wikivoyage" wordmark
:*All 13 languages around logo (v3 has only 11)
:*Sister projects list at top that stretches when window is very wide.
:*White text-shadows on wordmark and languages. This of course does not show on white background but would show if, for example, a light blue background were experimented with. It's a carry over from the sunset background code and could be refactored out if consensus moves to a white background.
:--[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

 

===v8===
[[File:Www.wikivoyage.org v8.png|thumb|upright=2|right|v8 as of April 2, 2013]]
[[Www.wikivoyage.org template/temp v8]], same as v6 but with '''lighter sunset image''' and relocated WIKIMEDIA badge. Work in progress -- gotta go to bed now... --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 06:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

+ photo credit (below MEDIAWIKI badge), and switched to a version of the MEDIAWIKI badge that has a opacity 0.25 (25%) background so that it does not pop off the page so much. This version of the badge needs some fine tuning as the text is getting lost. Where can I get an SVG of the MEDIAWIKI badge from which to work? I've contacted [[User talk:Philippe (WMF)#Transparent WIKIMEDIA badge]] for guidance on that. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

+ links to "Terms of Use" and "Privacy Policy" at bottom. Just noticed those two links at page bottom on the current portal, [//www.vikivoyage.org www.vikivoyage.org]. Guess we should keep those. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 06:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

====Comments on v8====
*{{support}} Very very nice! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 10:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
*{{support}} [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 17:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC

*{{support}} I have put the request in at [[Talk:Www.wikivoyage.org_template#Proposal]] for an admin to take us live with v8. The lighter background has resolved my former doubts. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 17:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

==Tagline==
(Copied from [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Tagline]])

From the comments above it looks like we're going to need a new tagline. If possible, can we try and make it short and it would probably would help if it weren't idiomatic. Here's a couple of thoughts: 'Liberating travel'; 'Set travel free'; 'Travel Freedom'. Any more ideas? --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nick]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 18:25, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:Travellers helping travellers. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 18:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
::My vote goes with the above. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 18:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:(edit conflict) There was some discussion earlier at [[Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo#Tagline issue]], but it didn't go anywhere. The other languages should probably have some input; maybe we can talk about it at [[Wikivoyage/Lounge]]? [[User:LtPowers|LtPowers]] ([[User talk:LtPowers|talk]]) 18:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Links to Meta fixed. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
::Why don't we ask Legal if using "The free travel guide" is likely to cause legal trouble? If it is not, then I think we may want to just go ahead and use the tag line _we_ always have. It describes _us_. _We_ made it (or, um, who did?). _Who_ owns it? Peter or Powers, would one of you ask WMF Legal please? I don't feel quite entitled to do so myself; am I being too modest? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 23:26, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
:::When proposals were being made for WV logos, legal removed "The Free Travel Guide" from all of them out of legal concerns. Anyway, why should we insist on having the same tagline as our nemesis, who has incorporated into the logo on every page of their site? [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 11:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
::::I do like 'Travellers helping travellers' - I think it's very clear and effective, but also gives as slight hint at this project's history. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 12:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::@Rogerhd: I am in contact with the General Counsel of the WMF. Should I ask him? I absolutely agree. The "Free travel guide" is fine to me as well. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 07:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::: User K7L commented in the English Wikivoyage pub that Wikipedia's tagline is "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", so Wikimedia clearly has an established right to that branding, and thus it seems that legally we would have as much (and probably more) right to the "the free worldwide travel guide that anyone can edit" tagline than any other site would. It would be great to get a legal opinion on the matter, but it doesn't seem like we're the site that should have to change, and thus I'd prefer to keep the existing tagline. -- [[User:Wrh2|Ryan]] • ([[User talk:Wrh2|talk]]) • 16:11, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::: We should come up with another tagline that is in line with the other wikimedia projects. Instead of copying the tagline of a project that like very like wikivoyage. [[User:Carsrac|Carsrac]] ([[User talk:Carsrac|talk]]) 20:37, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: We editors and maintainers are the living project. The host is just a shell. Our former host owns a trademark and a domain name, that's it. We replace those with new, but not the rest. I say our tag line is part of what we keep. It always has and still does described what we are doing. No one has a trademark on "The Free /anything/". It's just a description. We have a moral obligation to stand up for our rights. We have a right to use "The Free Travel Guide," as does anyone else I would think. All the same, on www.wikivoyage.org Mock 1 I used just "Travel Guide" in its 11 translations because I like it better and find it less cluttered there, for that particularly repetitive page's purposes. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:47, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::How about 'The Open Travel Guide'? - most people assume everything on the web these days is free, so I think 'open' is a more important description. Plus it highlights a quality that another wiki-based online travel guide does not always espouse! --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 14:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Quite good idea. I would support it, if its not too similar to the "Free Travel Guide" one. Is suppose "The free travel guide" is not an option, although i would love it. -- [[User:DerFussi|Der]][[User talk:DerFussi|Fussi]] 08:47, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

== No portal ==

I have a sinking feeling that a Web portal, any Web portal, is annoying useless anti-user Web design. Why do we have one? Politics of the meek? Here's the solution:

#Default www.wikivoyage.org to the most common language--English, or the language we have most articles in--English, or if we can, detect the browser's default language and serve that language version.
#If the user choses a different language, take them to it and save the choice in a cookie for ever.

It is that simple. That's what we should be working on.

Any portal is going to be an embarrassment that no designing can fix, because it is just in the way. So remove it (as soon as we get a persistent language choice cookie working). A portal just doesn't do anything remotely useful enough to warrant serving it to everyone who goes to our main domain name, ever. I'm quite serious and I'm only saying this because it is a simple fact that no amount of designing can "fix" or change. Portals are an embarrassingly annoying waste of users' attention, every time they type our primary domain name into their browser. No, we cannot expect anyone to type a language code first. We should remove the portal, plain and simple, provide language choices in left sidebar, remember user's choice with a cookie, and let everyone in all languages use www.wikivoyage.org to go directly to the language version they were most recently on. That's simple. That's smart interface design that just works. No fuss. Who can help us do the auto browser language detection and persistent language choice cookie? (We already have a cookie in the current portal that remembers the Search language choice, but only for a lame 24 hours; so I know we can do a cookie, although I don't know how and it should be long term, not a lame 24 hours.)

Maybe I'm wrong; maybe it is best the way Wikipedia is doing it. But I don't think so. We never had a Web portal at WT and didn't need one. Why do we need this suddenly? What does it do for our users that they want done and are not simply annoyed by? '''Please comment. Thanks!''' --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

:Sorry, but I do not wish to direct international people to only the English Wikivoyage, but let them decide which language they want to visit if I direct them to www.wikivoyage.org. This portal is working fine, and if you do not see any use for it: please do not use it, but let others do as it is useful for the worldwide human beings which also may be not experienced with English as language. [[User:Romaine|Romaine]] ([[User talk:Romaine|talk]]) 00:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::I think that use case is imaginary. How many websites do that? Are they all broken? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 01:07, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:Do you have any idea how that could be implemented? I suppose it should be filed as a bug on [[Bugzilla]] so the developers can implement this (if/when there is sufficient consensus). Not everyone uses cookies, so it might be inconvenient for them. I think Commons has a script to get the browser's language setting, which may be helpful if you decide to do that kind of thing. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 02:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::I think that redirecting people to one single project could look like some sort of an obligatory step for them (it makes me think on airport controls), which I think is not necessarily the best perception one wants to have for a new project. Does one? [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 08:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

:::I really can understand your points Roger that this practice seems outdated and anti-user: there are very few websites outside of the WMF sphere that use such a system and it can slow things down. I do know however that, were the default page set to something other than English I'd probably find that annoying and I can imagine that this would be the case for speakers of other languages. The only alternative I can think of is having 1 main page - ie one page with content in many different languages (with an emphasis on the most popular) although that would also no doubt come with a series of problems! I might have a go at it later and show you the results. --[[User:Nicholasjf21|Nicholasjf21]] ([[User talk:Nicholasjf21|talk]]) 11:43, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

: I understand your argument, Roger, but I think that a redirect to English Wikivoyage is unfair. Let's choose a simple, unobtrusive layout for the portal page, and leave it in peace. Some people may use it, others will go directly to individual languages. --[[User:Atsirlin|Atsirlin]] ([[User talk:Atsirlin|talk]]) 18:43, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

::Unfair? Is that why we did this? Does throwing up multilingual "portals" in front of Wikimedia sites ''make'' it fair that English is the common language on the Internet? Hm. Does it make us look like politically correct geese and add an extra page to figure out and click on to get to our site? Well, it does at the moment. I was ''annoyed'' the first time, more than a year ago, when I found a "portal" in front of Wikipedia.org. But Wikipedia is "not my wiki." I let it go. It is still there and annoying. But on Wikivoyage? Hm, ''who'' did this, anyway? What WV community consensus was achieved before throwing a "portal" up in front of our site? We ''are'' a travel guide in 11 languages, ''not'' an apology for the common language on the Internet. Our left sidebar ''links'' to our multiplicity of languages already, and our new Main Page bottom ''has'' an "Other Projects" icon tray already. People really don't want an extra page to digest. Fair doesn't enter the equation, they just want a travel guide already. Awesome, it has language links in the sidebar. How easy is that? Awesome, it remembered my language choice (wait.. we haven't implemented that yet, have we? Let's do--who can do this language cookie?). (See next section.) --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

'''I have changed my mind.''' I went to [//wikitravel.org/zh/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 Chinese WT] and asked myself if a newcomer who does not read Chinese could easily find the language links down page in the left sidebar. No, he couldn't. If the language links were at top right, where people will look for them on such a page, yes. But they are alas not there. We should fix ''that'' on WV first—see [[#Universal Language Selector]], below. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:02, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

As a disclaimer, I am a native English speaker however I do understand why we should not want to give undue prominence to the English language. Nevertheless, I believe the existing wikitravel portal page is a much more compelling entrance to the site than the wikivoyage portal that (frankly) looks like a low quality intranet site. Since we are trying to establish this site as the leading travel resource on the internet, can we please use the Wikipedia convention of English as the default? As an IT professional, I do see this as a big issue (although not a critical issue) for site adoption. --[[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 14:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

:If doing away with a portal, which I'm not convinced is the right solution, we would need a much more prominent notice on the individual main pages showing that we provide travel information in many languages. Our defining goal is to provide an open-content travel guide to the world ''in your own language''. English is our biggest language version, in no small part because it is the so-called global lingua franca, but it should be as obvious as possible to German speakers (just one example) that they can get (and contribute!) great information in their own language too. --[[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peter]] [[User_talk:Peterfitzgerald|Talk]] 19:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

== Language cookie ==

I'd like to build consensus for a Bug request to have a '''"language cookie"''' implemented on wikivoyage.org that would remember, for both anonymous and logged in users, the language version of Wikivoyage they were last on and redirect them to it instead of displaying the "portal" the next time they go to wikivoyage.org or www.wikivoyage.org. The portal has no functionality that the Main Pages lack and is therefore irrelevant (see section above). This cookie would make it easier for repeat visitors to Wikivoyage to got to the language version of their choice, by anticipating that it is most often the one they were on last time and taking them to it. Simple, really. '''Please comment.''' Thx --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
:It could be very simple if for registered and logged in users that cookie is linked to his/her preferences. However, for an anonymous visitor can be very annoying if the cookie recognises a region and redirects or uses the language of that geographical region instead of the preferred or wished language. I think of Google as example. If I'm logged in, the system shows a search engine in Spanish according to my account preferences but the text on it is shown in German and the results are mostly located through the German search engine when I am located in Germany. So, I still have to make a couple clicks here and there to get to the English version and its results (even if the menus and other texts are still shown in German or Spanish)! If there was a portal where I could choose my preferred search engine, that'd be simply great! And yes, I know there are some tricks to get to the version I want a little more directly, but the same idea applies there: I still have to find a way to go around the (for me) annoying mix of languages to get to my preferred search engine instead of having a simple page with all accurate options. Cheers! [[User:Soljaguar|Soljaguar]] ([[User talk:Soljaguar|talk]]) 23:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
::You are right. Let's '''not''' do this cookie. At least not unless we get the language selection links into an ''obvious'' place at page top right where people will look for it. The language links down the left sidebar are just not obvious enough when you are on a Wikivoygae page in a language you don't know. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 04:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
::: The language drop down from the top on meta works great, I think. Why can't we use something like that? --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 09:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
::::That's brilliant! Why didn't I think of that. Yes, that is what we should do instead of a portal. Of course, it would not offer to change the site's navigational language in our case, it would offer to take you to whatever language version of Wikivoyage you want (we have 11 to choose from at the moment). And it's a page top right interface item right where anyone can easily find it. Excellent! Checking [[Special:Version]] I see that it is, I think, [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector]]. I want it yesterday already! Do any of us have any experience configuring this? It should be on all language versions of Wikivoyage so that no user gets stranded on a language version lacking it. Once we have UniversalLanguageSelector working, then we can revisit loosing the portal. --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 21:59, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

== [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector|Universal Language Selector]] ==

Extension [[mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector|Universal Language Selector]], if configured wisely, may be the language version switcher that simply works for Wikivoyage in any language, no "portal" needed. Who knows more about this? Who can help us figure out how to configure it? I'd like to have a test area in which to install and configure this, and let everyone kick the tires and make suggestions, before we push it out to all Wikivoyage language versions. Do we have a Wikivoyage test wiki we could install it on? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 22:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

:I want an easy to find languages switching icon at page top where most people will look for it, (like at top of this Meta page) that would do the following:
:* Offer language choices of all the Wikivoyage language versions, and take you to that language version when you click on that choice.
:Useful additional information might be shown on this Universal Language Selector language choices drop down pagelet, such as:
:* How many articles exist in that language version.
:* A link to that versions Main Page.
:* If the equivalent page to the one you are currently on _exists_ in a given language version, a link to that page. That page wont necessarily have the same name, eg Rome (en.voy) -> Roma (it.voy). If it _does not exist,_ a note indicating that.
:Those would be the core functions we want for WV I think. Universal Language Selector has other functionality that I think we would '''not''' want, such as changing the interface language. On Meta that functionality makes sense because Meta tries to be one multilingual wiki. But at WV (and WP) we use separate wikis for each language. So we would keep that functionality turned off, I think, on WV wikis. Keep it simple so people can use it without thinking about it.
:Might Stephan's new locdb (new "Page information" link, in Tools, in left sidebar on WV) be useful as part of extension Universal Language Selector, to provide the page counts and equivalent page names?
:Could we do that with Universal Language Selector? --[[User:Rogerhc|Rogerhc]] ([[User talk:Rogerhc|talk]]) 19:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
::I don't think that's what the Universal Language Selector is for. I think that the ULS is intended for multilingual projects, where people would like to switch languages (e.g., Wikidata and Meta-Wiki). You might be able to get it to do something like that. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 16:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

== New script : Semi-automatic merging of recent changes from WT to Wikivoyage ==

WT still gets good edits, mostly by Wikivoyage-unaware IPs. We should merge these good edits into WikiVoyage. I wrote a Linux script that makes it semi-automatic: 
https://github.com/nicolas-raoul/MergeFromWt

For each article recently modified on WT, it shows the differences between WT&WV in a diff editor, and give you a link to easily upload the merged wikicode if there are edits worth taking. You can easily choose what changes to take in the diff editor. To make it perfectly legal, the script also gives you the list of attributions to paste as an edit summary.

The script is pre-configured for English, but for another language just change the LANGUAGE setting at the top of the *run.sh* file. 
Please use it :-) Waiting for your feedback! [[User:Nicolas1981|Nicolas1981]] ([[User talk:Nicolas1981|talk]]) 07:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Proposals for closing projects/Archive 2

2013-04-01T09:49:01Z

JamesA: /* Discussion */ +oppose

{{Archive box auto|[[/Archive 1/]] (before 2010)}}

== All Languages Came From One; Let's Please Work to Make Progress ==

There are translating tools one may use to help with this available on the internet for free. As such, an Native English speaker can use these (although not foolproof, but at least a good attempt). Wiki is an amazing concept, but arguing with each other is not going to accomplish much (see EVERY culture/empire that has fallen because of this). Why not ask the head of the company to make a deal with others to make this possible and a good viable solution instead of problems? Thank you for reading.

== Thai Wikinews <500 edits/year ==

Much as it pains me, I think it's pretty conclusive that the Thai Wikinews should be closed. See [http://th.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%B4%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%A8%E0%B8%A9:%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%9A%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%A5%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%94&days=365&limit=500 here] for all edits within the last 365 days.

I can't write in Thai, so I'm not sure exactly where to alert the project to impending deletion. Can someone who reviews the above list of non-bot edits (<500 in a year) and knows some Thai alert them to this? --''[[n:User:Brianmc|Brian McNeil]]'' / ''[[n:User_talk:Brianmc|talk]]'' 18:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

==Old proposals==
I have noticed that there are proposals dating back a few years with Burmese Wiktionary open since 16 August 2007. Of course, the Burmese Wiktionary page, the Dzongkha Wikipedia, the Tatar Wikipedia page and Chechen Wikipedia pages seem like they should be kept. However, many are floating about for a long time. Perhaps a change to how this system works. I propose to add the following to the content page:

1. All proposals that have less than 10 votes after a six month period from when they were first proposed will be closed without prejudice or determination of outcome. This will be determined as a keep per lack of discussion, and there will be no statement against restarting the discussion.

I would like to also propose the following:

2. All closes are provided with a closing date on the form (and carried over into the archive) and proposals are archived after a standard period of 7 days.

I think that would help make things run a little smoother and get more activity on individual pages instead of allowing some of the proposals to just drag on forever. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] 01:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

:These ideas look reasonable. [[User:Ruslik0|Ruslik]] 16:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
:Support this process. ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 15:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
:Looks good to me. [[user:Pmlineditor|'''Pmlineditor''']] [[user talk:Pmlineditor|'''∞''']] 15:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

* To add, with the 7 days archiving, a section in the archive will contain those not yet locked at the top. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] 01:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

== Mandatory warnings -- please ratify ==

It has been [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Proposals_for_closing_projects%2FClosure_of_Sotho_Wikipedia&action=historysubmit&diff=2183112&oldid=2182160 asserted] that the line ''Proposals with no fair warnings to the projects will be ignored'' was added [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Proposals_for_closing_projects/header&diff=1537272&diffonly=yes by an IP] and can therefore be ignored. I hereby ask for formal ratification.

*'''Support''' Makes sense. [[User:Seb az86556|Seb az86556]] 19:35, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''', agree. It's unfair that wikis (some with sizeable communities) can be in the dark for months that they could be shut down any minute, as with [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Sotho Wikipedia|the Sotho Wikipedia]]. They should be given a chance to defend themselves IMHO. [[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 20:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Per Tempodivalse --[[User:WizardOfOz|WizardOfOz]] [[user_talk:WizardOfOz|talk]] 20:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I think that the more relevant point was that the rule had no prior discussion, not whether it was added by an IP or a registered account. In any case, it makes sense to require warnings to ensure that it doesn't come as a surprise to the community if the project is closed. [[User:Jafeluv|Jafeluv]] 22:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' so that this vote does not end unanimously. -- [[User:Prince Kassad|Prince Kassad]] 22:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
* {{comment}} ratification for the sentence or the current version? As there is another IP added paragraph: [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Proposals_for_closing_projects/header&diffonly=1&diff=prev&oldid=1422604] [[User:Bennylin|Bennylin]] 11:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== Statement of what happens after closure ==

A [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Proposals_for_closing_projects%2Fheader&diff=2342749&oldid=2246856 recent addition] to the description of common practices (not a policy), describing what happens after closure, did not appear to me to be entirely correct in a couple respects.
# It is implied that a closed project cannot be deleted due to the GFDL and CC-BY-SA. Exercising permission to publish contributors' work under the applicable licenses does not create an obligation to continue publishing the work in perpetuity. Individual pages are routinely deleted from Wikimedia sites every day, and a difference in scale does not imply a difference in principle.
# The unqualified statement that closed projects will be imported to the Incubator is overbroad. This only applies to content that meets Incubator policy and is potentially useful for a future WMF project. Sometimes projects are adopted at non-Wikimedia sites without being staged at the Incubator.
I have revised the paragraph accordingly, with some further elaborations, in an attempt to describe what appear to have been the common practices. The resulting language is rather indefinite about what will ultimately happen to a closed project, and intentionally implies that "long enough" is not a commitment for all eternity. Further clarification would be welcome, but it is hard to be precise about a procedure that is largely ''ad hoc'', as disclaimed in '''''bold red italics''''' at the top of the page. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] 03:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
: I guess a dev could better answer this question. My knowledge of how a wiki is closes is that a dev locks its database and thus only stewards can edit it. But in the past projects have been also deleted: [[Proposals for closing projects/Deletion of Siberian Wikipedia]] & [[Proposals for closing projects/Deletion of Toki Pona Wikimedia projects]] are two examples.
: I think that the content should only be imported to the incubator where that content can be useful and meets Incubator policies and guidelines.
: -- [[User:Dferg|Dferg]] [[User talk:Dferg|☎ talk]] 10:39, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

== German Wikiversity ==

Hmm. OK, it doesn't look like the German Wikiversity has been officially closed (AFAICT), so why does [//de.wikiversity.org/ de.wikiversity.org] return an error saying "wiki does not exist"? - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 04:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
:Works okay for me... [[User:QuiteUnusual|'''QU''']] [[User talk:QuiteUnusual|TalkQu]] 09:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
:: Yeah, I was just about to say it was back now. Anyone know what happened? - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 09:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
::: The weird thing is, the German Wikiversity was the ''only'' Wikimedia wiki (of the 790 I track the daily stats of) that was affected. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] ([[User talk:Dcljr|talk]]) 09:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

== how can i list my proposal on a separate subpage ==

how can i do this? can anyone help, please? [[User:Vincentangeles005|Vincentangeles005]] ([[User talk:Vincentangeles005|talk]]) 14:04, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

== Close Wikinews completely, all languages? ==

=== Asking for opinions ===
'''Note:''' As this discussion was made the topic of a Signpost article in English Wikipedia, I think I have to add this note to make it even more clear that this is '''not''' a formal proposal of any kind yet, just ''asking for opinions'' regarding a ''possible proposal''. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 03:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I thought about formally proposing the closure of Wikinews in its entirety, after doing quite a lot of research on the usefulness of its language versions. But as this would be an unconventionally far-reaching proposal, I thought it would be best to ask for opinions here first. The following is a rough draft of what I would have written in a closure proposal:

This proposal may seem radical, but it is made after careful examination of all language versions of Wikinews. Although I don't read most languages, with the help of online translators the basic picture is clear enough and the same as in English Wikinews for all languages: Even where there is some activity, the site is simply not useful as a news source from a user point of view. The list of [[:wikinews:en:Wikinews:2013/March|news in March 2013]] in English Wikinews may serve as an example for this. The fact alone that for several days of the month, there are ''no'' news whatsoever might lead us to question the usefulness for people who want to read current news. The ''only'' news for March 6 to March 9 is ''[[:wikinews:en:Wikinews interviews British scientist Dr Paul Dolman about proposal to cull deer population|Wikinews interviews British scientist Dr Paul Dolman about proposal to cull deer population]]'' - a valiant effort to provide some original content, but a random interview about a random topic as the only content for days isn't exactly what I would expect from a news site. And for most of the very meagre news content at Wikinews people turn better to other sites to get the news quicker and more completely than the re-telling at Wikinews. My findings for the individual language versions are, as of March 25, 2013:

* Arabic (ar): News archive lists a total of 17 news for March 2013 as of March 25 which were easily accessible on other news sites. Basically the same situation as English Wikinews, plus a lack of original reporting.
* Bulgarian (bg): Very old "news" on the main page (a "top story" about a solar airplane is from 2010, the "newsticker" has news from October 2012) and at the start there is a link to a "Current events" page on Bulgarian ''Wikipedia'' for current events... project looks pretty dead to me.
* Bosnian (bs): The ''only'' news in March 2013 so far is the election of Pope Francis. And the ''only'' news in February is the abdication of his predecessor. An obviously dead project, too.
* Catalan (ca): A bit more activity with at least one news item per day (for most days, only one), but this is also far from being a useful news source. If you look for Catalan news, "one to four random items per day" Wikinews certainly isn't what you're going to use - and, for example, on March 3 the four items were nothing but rugby results.
* Czech (cs): The only individual news article for March according to [[:wikinews:cs:Kategorie:Březen 2013|Kategorie:Březen 2013]] seems to be the one about the election of the new Pope. There is, however, a kind of "daily chronicle", as it seems, with pages like [[:wikinews:cs:4. březen 2013|4. březen 2013]], but missing for some days.
* German (de): Situation very similar to English Wikinews. A few random-seeming news items per month, such as (of course) the election of Pope Francis, or a shooting in Göttingen.
* Greek (el): Level of activity seems similar to Catalan Wikinews, i.e. content is still too sparse and random to be of much use.
* English (en): See description in introductory text. A particularly sad example.
* Esperanto (eo): Dead project. Three news items in March, eo-Wikinews not even managed to report the otherwise ubiquitous papal election...
* Spanish (es): See Catalan and Greek Wikinews. Still the same basic picture.
* Farsi (fa): Was difficult for me, as there doesn't seem to be an equivalent of the categorizing by month used in other Wikinews language versions, <s>and Google Translate doesn't offer Farsi...</s> but the Recent Changes list doesn't seem to indicate much more activity than in other Wikinews language versions. Later addition: It was pointed out to me that Google offers Farsi (as "Persian"), checked now - doesn't look good... very few news from March.
* Finnish (fi): Pretty dead. Latest news item is from March 8 (as it seems, a list of the nominees for a Finnish fantasy award).
* French (fr): Seems to be one of the most "active" Wikinews sites, but "active" only in comparison to all those nearly contentless Wikinews language versions... One to eight items per day are still not creating a useful news source, and one of them is an often very meagre "chronicle" page like [[:wikinews:fr:Évènements_du_9_mars_2013|Évènements_du_9_mars_2013]].
* Hebrew (he): Five news items in March so far, the last was the papal election. No news last week. Not useful.
* Italian (it): Zero to three news items per day. On most days, if there are any news at all, they're only football results. Only a few other news are mixed in... did I already mention the papal election? ;-)
* Japanese (ja): As of March 25, there are only eleven news items in March, therefore many days without any.
* Korean (ko): It seems that the latest news dates from February 23 and there was nothing to report in March...
* Norwegian, bokmål (no): Warns on its start page that Wikinews currently has "little activity" and indeed seems to have more or less stopped in 2012, with "news" on the start page going back as far as 2009. One of the "top stories" is Whitney Houston's death in February, 2012(!) ''[now: [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Norwegian (bokmål) Wikinews]] --[[User:NeuerNutzer2009|NeuerNutzer2009]] ([[User talk:NeuerNutzer2009|talk]]) 11:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)]''
* Polish (pl): Level of activity similar to Catalan/Greek/Spanish Wikinews with one to four articles per day.
* Portuguese (pt): Similar to above, though several days without any news at all (e.g. March 7 to 9 and 14 to 16).
* Romanian (ro): Very dead. In 2013, so far only three articles in January, none in February and one in March.
* Albanian (sq): Inactive/dead. News on the main page are all from 2012.
* Swedish (sv): Very little activity. Top story is from January; there's only one from March on the start page (March 10, death of Princess Lilian).
* Tamil (ta): Similar to Catalan Wikinews, one or two articles for each day of March as of March 25.
* Thai (th): Project already closed in 2011, see [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Thai Wikinews]]
* Turkish (tr): Very little activity; top news on start page are from February. Only one news item for March so far, which is tagged for speedy deletion as advertising.
* Ukrainian (uk): Similar to French Wikinews, a bit more active.
* Chinese (zh): Very little activity. Only three news items in March so far.

* There are two exceptions that may be close to a working news site: Russian (ru) and Serbian (sr) Wikinews. Every day in March has seen several news items for those, 4 to 12 at Russian Wikinews. That's not overwhelming, too, but these may be exceptions worth continuing - maybe on a different platform? The Ukrainian Wikinews mentioned above shows also a bit more activity than most Wikinews versions...

A further argument for the closure of Wikinews is that Wikipedia has already integrated the "news" aspect and tends to include recent events very quickly into its articles. E.g. to find good information regarding the election of the new Pope, people didn't need to use Wikinews - Wikipedia quickly had nearly everything one could wish for in all major language versions. Bulgarian Wikinews referring to Bulgarian Wikipedia for current events is also a nice example of this trend.

Summarizing the reasons for closure:
* There is currently no language version of Wikinews really reporting a reasonable selection of current news (with the possible exceptions of Russian, Serbian, and Ukrainian Wikinews, to some extent), therefore there is little user value
* Wikipedia integrates current events into its articles and is more widely used
* Keeping Wikinews active would mean maintaining a Potemkin village. It is not what it purports to be. A small random selection of (mostly) retold news is not a news site.

What do you think? [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 02:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

=== Discussion ===
:Please see [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of English Wikinews]] - that was already proposed and failed. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 03:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::See also: [[Wikimedia_Forum#Proposal_to_close_Wikinews]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 03:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::Yes, Rschen7754, I'm aware of the previous proposal... but my reasoning here is different: I'm not saying that "inactivity" as such is a reason for closure, but the lack of usefulness from a ''user point of view'' - some of these projects may be active on a low level, but there's no product of a news site worth visiting. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 12:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::: Some better-integrated news portal that combines the work on Wikinews with current events from the other projects makes sense. There are problems with the Wikinews definition (in that articles do not get better over time but quickly become fixed and unchanging) - but there are similarly problems with the Wikipedia policies covering news, if one wants to be able to do so effectively there.
::: Ideally we would have a forum where one could put current events in context - and at any point in time see both the current frenzy of activity and the past context - including past iterations of news-buzz. That doesn't seem to be a good reason to close the dozens of existing communities. It is certainly not the case that those news editors would find equally useful news-related work on their languages of Wikipedia. And some Wikipedia policies about how to talk about and present new events make it hard to give more than a passing mention to new events. The larger problem of providing News is one worth solving - empirically feeds such as ''wikinoticias'' are very widely used, and considered useful. I think the motivation for these "closure" discussions would be better directed towards that larger problem. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  14:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::::: This appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how news works. News ceases to be news. Facts do not cease to be facts. Wikipedia projects can cite news articles all they want. Wikinews cannot create an article called "Election of the pope" and endlessly update it." Can you name a major newspaper anywhere in the world that ran one story about the election of the Roman Catholic pope and just endlessly updated it? English Wikinews wrote at least three articles on this topic. The Associated press wrote 100 article articles at least about this. If we ran one article about the IPC ALpine World Championships on English Wikinews where we updated it, it would have been really awful. In fact, I challenge you to go to [[:n:Category:IPC Alpine Skiing World Championships]], find the first story and then write a version of that in your own words. Then, go to the second story and update your story with the additional news. Repeat this until you have one story including all the original reporting facts from all 20 stories involved. News ceases to be news. Facts do not cease to be facts.--[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 21:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

[[File:Precipitate Burial.jpg|thumb|I continue using this painting to illustrate the neverending attempts to shut off wikinews [http://de.wikinews.org/wiki/Benutzer:Itu/Wikinewsschliessungsw%C3%BCnsche]. I think this fits here perfect, but we consider making a dedicated Logo instead. --[[User:Itu|Itu]] ([[User talk:Itu|talk]]) 17:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC) (german wikinews-guru) ]]
'''Strong support''' and '''close them all'''. This project is not pining! It's passed on! This project is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If the Wikimedia Foundation hadn't nailed it to Wikipedia's Front Page it would be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now history! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, it's run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PROJECT!! If it ever lived, that is. Wikinews is everyone's waste of time and an embarrassment to the Wikimedia project family. --[[User:Janneman|Janneman]] ([[User talk:Janneman|talk]]) 03:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
*Would you mind explaining your reasoning rather than using useless rhetoric? --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 03:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
**May sound like rhetoric, but I think it was merely an attempt at [[:en:Dead Parrot sketch|a parody]]. --[[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 03:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
*Comment on the (fa) note: Google Translate actually does support Persian... [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 03:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks! I looked only unter "Farsi" instead of "Persian". Have now checked this version with the help of Google Translate, too, and it doesn't look better indeed. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 12:40, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
*The problematic is the same for all the sites. There is free news everywhere; WN doesn't do original reporting, meaning that it simply rehashes articles from other news sites, so I'm not surprised that few people want to create articles. Add to that, writing these articles require considerable skill, to regurgitate in non-copyright violating form. The project its dying a painful death, so to pull the plug might be the kindest thing to do. --[[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 03:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
**I suspect that you may find a look at [[wikinews:Category:OR|this]] interesting regarding your "''WN doesn't do original reporting''" comment. Synth articles, among other things such as "be neutral unlike a lot of other news sources are", serve the purpose of training newcomers for robust analysis of the information they get, so they can learn to present information competently before, if they get a chance to, participating in citizen journalism. [[User:Gryllida|Gryllida]] 12:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strong support: close them all'''. It doesn't matter that two proposals to close one or more WN sites didn't generate the required consensus: in my reading, that consensus will come sooner or later. Tellingly, such proposals are being posted with greater frequency as members of the Wikimedia movement become increasingly frustrated with the WN idea. I'd have strongly supported the original launching, in an era when traditional (commercial) journalism is on the ropes as a viable model; but my support would have been without the benefit of thinking it through and seeing it in action (or inaction, as the case may be). The original model for WM hasn't worked. There are three fundamental reasons:(1) '''Expensive and professionalised.''' Original news-gathering is a very resource-hungry activity, often requiring travel and accommodation for skilled, professional journalists.(2) '''Requires public status.''' Journalists engaged in original news-gathering need their outlet to have high and well-established public status and authority; this comes from the high circulation and notability of the news outlet (no one's going to give a toss if one of us emails or phones a source saying "I'm from WN"—we are not ''The Guardian'' or ''The New York Times'' or ''The Huffington Post'', before whom sources tend to either cooperate instantly or cower. WMF outlets do have high public status, but not at all in journalistic terms.(3) '''Therefore second-hand and late.''' If almost the entire WM coverage is going to be second-hand (for reasons 1 and 2), it ends up having to paraphrase the major news outlets, well after their stories are released—this is fatally uncompetitive, given our free access to a plethora of free sites of large professional news organisations.There are at least three disadvantages to pretending that WN is viable and should be kept, limping along. First, it drags down the WMF trademark—it's actually pretty embarrassing for a movement that boasts such a prominent and respected worldwide trademark. Second, it costs Foundation money in technical assistance and server space. Third, it takes away jounralistically inclined editors from the forms of WP main-page-listed news—unfolding events being covered in the encyclopedia—that have proved to be much more successful. To this might be added my suspicion that WN in many languages is far from balanced, and possibly far from free of plagiarism and the close paraphrasing of copyrighted material. Gestumblindi has done an excellent job in surveying the amount of WN activity over all of the languages in which it has a site—thank you indeed; but it remains to be seen just what standards these sites have in terms of balance and copyright. If those three slavic WNs are slightly more active, I suggest that their corresponding WPs be assisted in beefing up their main-page ''In the news'' sections, so the WN editors can seamlessly transfer across to contribute to the ''unfolding news'' genre in their language WP—a more collegial environment that would add to rather than detract from the reputation of the Wikimedia Foundation. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 04:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::Note that Serbian Wikinews simply copies all articles from the Voice of America's Serbian homepage, as far as I know. That is of course completely inappropriate given that the VoA has a strong pro-American bias. -- [[User:Liliana-60|Liliana]] [[User talk:Liliana-60|•]] 09:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Let me also just point out that the costs of keeping Wikinews — all its language versions — alive, as compared to the English Wikipedia, are negligible. No current WMF employee works with the Wikinews community, and the number of page views, the size of the database, etc. of all Wikinews language editions is much smaller than of the English Wikipedia alone. Seeing that the Foundation focuses the vast majority of its resources on that single wiki — especially employee time, which is the most expensive of all — the financial argument being brought up above doesn't seem in touch with the reality. (Not that it should even be taken into consideration; I believe it shouldn't.) [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 11:35, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Well, what you're summarizing here about the WMF, that's important, because of this behaviour is one side of problem with all smaller projects: the WMF is doing nothing for promoting, helping, coordinating or what so ever outside the (English) Wikipedia. And most chapters are doing no better in that. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 14:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
: Hi Tony1! Keep up the good work! your long-standing campaign against the project (or at least individuals involved in it) keeps attracting attention and volunteers to it. - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 18:40, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

At least the dead projects should be closed. I've made a start for no.wn (see the page for this discussion). --[[User:NeuerNutzer2009|NeuerNutzer2009]] ([[User talk:NeuerNutzer2009|talk]]) 10:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Note: Formerly closed Wikinews projects include [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Dutch Wikinews|Dutch]] and [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Hungarian Wikinews|Hungarian]] (both because of inactivity). --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 11:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Note: Both the Dutch and the Hungarian Wikinews have been closed before the closing policy was adopted, and certainly neither of them would be closed now. According to the closing policy inactivity is not a reason to close a project, additional issues are. Neither EN or DE is without activity. Nor is FR or ES. Further: this discussion is reckless against those keeping Wikinews alive in the languages they're active. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 11:08, 26 March 2013 (UTC) PS: Closing the Hungarian Wikinews might have been a big mistake, taking in mind the press situation in Hungary lately.

*Liliana, you wrote: "Note that Serbian Wikinews simply copies all articles from the Voice of America's Serbian homepage". Do I read you correctly? In fact, there is nothing value-added by the Serbian WN? It's just a copy-paste job? What is the point of that?And further, how much of the other WN sites is simply copy-pasted, whether from public-domain sources like Voice of America, or by breach of copyright? [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 13:42, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
**As far as I can say for the languages in which I am involved in, that's DE and a bit EN: usually nothing, aside from a number of VoA articles which are mostly rewritten but give a good skeleton for an article. Within the Serbian WP: I assume they're doing that for having more content. [[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 14:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

'''No support at all''' (for now). This is a so far primarily a discussion of some Wikipedians without really involving the Wikinews editors themselves. The reasoning also simply states some criteria for closure, which is somewhat debatable in particular it currently lacks any kind of usage analysis to prove its point. That is for instance an usage analysis/statistics of the readers/users of Wikinews and its archives.--[[User:Kmhkmh|Kmhkmh]] ([[User talk:Kmhkmh|talk]]) 13:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Leaning towards '''support'''. None of these projects is more than what a single person could do (mostly the number of news is even less than what most bloggers post on any given day). Not even Wikimedia chapters use it for reports about events etc., but they have their own blogs, like everyone else in the world. No offense to the handful of users who have been trying hard to keep the projects alive, but I think it's time to admit that this is a failed project, in every respect. --[[User:FA2010|FA2010]] ([[User talk:FA2010|talk]]) 15:18, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

:It is not, and you know about that. Most bloggers write one single post every day or two and are aggregating great parts of their blogs from articles publiished eleswhere and it can be doubted with the new [[:w:Ancillary copyright for press publishers]](Leistungsschutzrecht für Presseverleger) that blogging in German will be as easy in the future; heck even the future of Google News in Germany is in scrutinies. And of course do Wikimedia chapters not use Wikinews for reports about events, see [[:n:de:Wikinews:Was Wikinews nicht ist]]: ''keine Werbeplattform ''. Besides bloggers do not necessarily assume a neutral point of view and they not necessarily respect a [[:n:de:Wikinews:Pressecodex]], --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 16:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

'''support''' This Project globally shows that it failed, even if some editors are in love with it. --[[User:Julius1990|Julius1990]] ([[User talk:Julius1990|talk]]) 23:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Prior discussion at [[Proposals for closing projects/Closure of English Wikinews]] shows support to keep ''Wikinews'' open, surely the way to go about this is a discussion for the individual language Wikinews, and not wholesale for all languages. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 01:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

:: Evidently, this is the same fringe community of malcontents who tried to propose shutting down en.wn a few months ago. They discovered there was overwhelming support for the project, and as I recall grumbled at the time about trying to polarize the Wikinews sisters into those supporting en.wn and those opposed. Presumably that idea didn't work out for them; someone had the idea to bypass the support for en.wn by proposing to close all Wikinews projects at once (I can't explain why they think those opposed to closing all Wikinews would be a subset of those opposed to closing just one). Afaics, there's nothing remotely legitimate about this "proposal"; they didn't even attempt to inform anyone, which suggests they know perfectly well it's meaningless, although some of the perpetrators "voted" on it and thus managed to elicit opposing "votes" from a few of the known majority who support Wikinews. --[[User:Pi zero|Pi zero]] ([[User talk:Pi zero|talk]]) 01:44, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::Your assumption is wrong. I had nothing to do with the proposal to shut down English Wikinews, barely noticed it. That I'm starting a discussion regarding the possibility of closing Wikinews completely now has a a different background: Firstly, from a user point of view, I have for a long time noticed that neither German (my native language) nor English Wikinews have useful news content to offer. When German Wikinews asked for feedback in June 2012, I posted there [[:wikinews:de:Wikinews:Feedback#Gebt.27s_auf|what I think of it]] and suggested giving it up. Not a lot happened thereafter, and Wikinews drifted out of my focus. It's not a very interesting site, after all. Now, a few days ago there was an article in the German Wikipedia's [[:de:Wikipedia:Kurier|"Kurier"]] (the Signpost equivalence) regarding the future of Wikiversity. A statement in the accompanying discussion ("there's simply no need for Wikiversity, e-learning is happening elsewhere") reminded me of Wikinews, you just have to replace some words - "there's simply no need for Wikinews, news reporting is happening elsewhere"... and so, after some further discussion, I got interested in the question whether the state of Wikinews is as sad in the other languages as it is in German and English. Therefore my research and, given the results, my preliminary proposal here. It's of course not a "real" proposal yet, just an attempt to gather some opinions (it's on the talk page, you may have noticed). If there is overwhelming rejection, I will leave it at that. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 02:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: I did not make an assumption. I have, of course, no way to test the veracity of your account of your role in this; the timing makes coincidence improbable, but that doesn't require complicity on your part. It would be entirely possible for you to play your part without even realizing you're doing so. There isn't even a need for a "traditional" conspiracy theory — I don't believe in traditional conspiracy theories anyway, because they require lots of people to be diabolically clever and well coordinated with each other. Real conspiracies, the ones that are most effective, usually don't work that way. They operate largely by using their participants rather than taking direction from them. --[[User:Pi zero|Pi zero]] ([[User talk:Pi zero|talk]]) 03:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. The request does not demonstrate how the Wikinews projects family is against Wikimedia projects policy and as such has no merit. The "Wikipedia already does news" argument is also invalid because Wikinews, [[wikinews:Wikinews:For_Wikipedians|unlike Wikipedia]], welcomes original research in the shape of [[wikinews:WN:OR|original reporting]] activity. There is no reason to require Wikinews to be comprehensive either. Inactivity argument also has no merit given that Russian wikinews stats are higher than English wikinews stats, and ''something'' gets published daily. I have to admit that the requester has not read the documentation and likely has erred in his judgment of what Wikinews exists for and how it works.
:Interesting positive feedback we got: "''Wikinews being the most neutral (albeit least comprehensive) news source I know. :)''" per [[wikinews:User:Kayau|Kayau]]; there is a condifence that with time, as more contributors engage, comprehensiveness would improve, but it is not the primary goal. Wikinews is unique for its neutrality goals and the concept of citizen journalism. --[[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 01:51, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::Indeed, I do not say that the Wikinews projects family is in any way "against Wikimedia projects policy". What I say is that Wikinews isn't a useful resource. And indeed, Wikinews ''"welcomes original research in the shape of original reporting activity"'', but this is something that happens so rarely and hasn't really taken off in all these years that I think it's at a point where we can say that the project failed. That Russian (and Serbian, Ukrainian) Wikinews stats are slightly higher than for most other languages is something I have also mentioned, but a) it's still not that much - certainly not what any established news portal could offer, b) the quality also would need checking (according to Liliana, Serbian Wikinews "simply copies all articles from the Voice of America's Serbian homepage"), and c) given that all other Wikinews language versions are in a deplorable state, as I think I have clearly outlined, maybe Russian Wikinews could find a different platform. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 02:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::You may find a look at [[wikinews:Category:Original reporting|this]] interesting: multiple people did original reporting this year, including reporting on the spot and exclusive interviews. You should contact Serbian Wikinews directly asking them to resolve the issue, and only then contact Wikimedia. Deplorable state is what you think — inactivity is defined fairly less strict than you think, and ''inactivity on its own is not a reason'' per [[Closing projects policy]]. [[Image:Smiley.svg|link=|17px]]
:::Nothing of what you said seems to justify an attempt to have WMF handle this issue. I suspect that you may have escalated the situation needlessly and taken away Wikinews, Meta, and WMF community time more than it should have been. And while you might still wish to repeat your query later, asking to only close English Wikinews, odds are that it'd be considered active and fit the [[vision]] of what Wikimedia projects exist for. --[[User:Gryllida|Gryllida]] 12:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''Strong oppose:''' <s>The same arguments put forth by the proposer could easily be applied for many Wikipedias. English, Spanish and Russian Wikinews all have active contributor bases with functional communities that are engaged in doing original reporting and covering news sources that are not covered elsewhere. Wikinews was never designed to be the Associated Press. It is not going to cover the world and everything in it. Starting from there is a logical fallacy. Comparing the project to bloggers is even worse because doing news reporting is simply not that easy. Anyone can write a blog post. Anyone can write a bunch of unsubstantiated content where they are not beholden to anyone and need not take accountability. (Heck, we have the Signpost for that. I'd guess without looking at the Signpost that it is not neutral, there was no attempt to be neutral, that no one at the signpost bothered to contact any of the active contributors before writing about it.) --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 01:51, 29 March 2013 (UTC)</s> LangComm can only close projects for inactivity. There is no currently established procedure for closing a project. If all Wikinews projects were sent to incubator, many of them would be sent right back to their current locations because activity exists. Beyond their, procedurally, there is zero evidence that the nominator contacted all Wikinews projects proposed for closure to inform them of this proposal. While this procedural requirement was not completed, the notice appears in English Wikipedia Signpost without the community being consulted. Procedurally, this is dead in the water.--[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 03:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::"Beyond their, procedurally, there is zero evidence that the nominator contacted all Wikinews projects proposed for closure to inform them of this proposal" - well, I didn't intend this as a formal ''proposal'' yet. I had no knowledge of the Signpost article, although I welcome the publicity :-) - this is only an informal first attempt at a discussion, to gather opinions, as I wrote in the introduction: "But as this would be an unconventionally far-reaching proposal, I thought it would be best to ask for opinions here first". [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 03:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::It's nice that ''"English, Spanish and Russian Wikinews all have active contributor bases with functional communities that are engaged in doing original reporting and covering news sources that are not covered elsewhere"'', but I'm looking at it from a user point of view, I'm looking at the ''result.'' And from this point of view, what I find there is completely random. In the entirety of four days (March 6-9) a short interview ''about proposal to cull deer population'' (in the UK) as the only "news" in English Wikinews, for heaven's sake! As I see it, the target audience of Wikinews could be defined as "people who are interested in very sporadic, mostly unoriginal articles about random news". For the whole of March 28, we have only ''Nelson Mandela hospitalised again with lung infection recurrence'' in English Wikinews, and the article contains nothing not found everywhere else. German Wikinews has - nothing for March 28. Wikipedias are a very different matter. The inherently more static nature of an encyclopedia makes sporadic activity much less of an issue. Even a very slowly growing Wikipedia language version is growing towards becoming more encyclopedic, with every article that is written. On the other hand, Wikinews doesn't get better as a ''news'' site with a slowly growing archive of old news. There is some historic value in the old articles, of course, but the site is called ''Wikinews'' after all. It's calling itself a "news source", which it isn't and it doesn't get better. An interesting NYT criticism from 2007 is quoted [[:en:Wikinews#Criticism|in Wikipedia]]: "[Wikinews] has sunk into a kind of torpor; lately it generates just 8 to 10 articles a day..." - 8 to 10 articles a day? For most language versions of Wikinews, nowadays this would be a paradisiac state of things... neither English nor German Wikinews manage that "many" articles a day now, most other languages neither. Yes, Wikinews wouldn't need to be "the Associated Press". But is it so much to ask from a news site to - be able to read news? ;-) I also think that there are just too few people interested in writing for a project like this, when we can write "for eternity" in Wikipedia... [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 02:59, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

* '''Strong oppose:''' Is that serious? I do not see valid reason for all versions of Wikinews are closed. In Spanish Wikinews're lifting head. In our Twitter account we are about to exceed the [https://twitter.com/wikinoticias 80,000 followers!] --[[User:MadriCR|MadriCR]] ([[User talk:MadriCR|talk]]) 02:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strongest possible oppose, as well as [removed personal attack] ''' What the fuck are you thinking? [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard!]] ([[User talk:Collard|talk]], [[w:User:Collard|en]], [[commons:User:Collard|commons]]) 03:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
** '''Admin note:''' Be [[w:WP:CIVIL|civil]] please. [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 15:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''Strong oppose:''' I am a Spanish Wikinews user and don't really know in depth how other wikinews work. I think that Wikinews is after Wikipedia and maybe together with Wikisource the only Wikimedia Project that has a future, a sense and a strong value/importance. For the others generally you can find much developed and bigger sites in the web. Wikinews might not have many users or many news, but I think its quite special. First, is global and not with a local slant. Second, is neutral (which other important news site do you have with those two conditions?). Third, it can obviously be edited by anyone, by people of different backgrounds and interests. It might not be so visible, but at least for Spanish Wikinews there lots of people who read it (you just have to see the statics), even news that are not so important as the "election of the pope". As MadriCR said we have 80,000 followers on Twitter and many people enjoy Wikinews even if its not constatly updated. I have read minor but interesting news that I didn't saw in the local newspapers I read. Really, I cannot say that Wikinews has the impact, sense and value than Wikipedia but is very special in its own way. Probably not aiming to become someone main source of news, but as complimentary source its quite fine. To finish I would like to add that on the Spanish Wikinews yesterday (Thursday 28th) eight news were published and the day before other seven news were published, although that doesn't mean much since it depends the day, it means that although we are are a small amount of editors we are committed to improve the project. Well, at least that is my opinion... sorry for my poor english. [[User:Lcsrns|'''Lcsrns''']] [[Usuario Discusión:Lcsrns|'''(Talk)''']] 03:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I can only really speak for the English Wikinews, but other than possibly the Russian, I suspect this applies to all of them: Wikinews is useless. I don't say that to demean the editors who have dedicated their time there, but in my view, the project adds almost nothing to Wikimedia. The stories are inevitably inferior to what any decent blog can give you, let alone mainstream media. The news is old when it gets published due to clunky process. Certainly the need to vet sources and portect against copyvios is of critical importance, but a useful news site has to be able to react fast to news. And, ultimately, it is unused. The North American portal of en.wikinews has stories from '''''last September''''' still on the main page and is criminally biased towards American topics. Leave the comfort of the English world, and things get even worse. In the South American portal, there is still on the main page a story from [https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/2,000_stranded_in_Machu_Picchu,_Peru_after_torrential_rains January 25, 2010]. Africa is even better. There is a story there from [https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Thousands_displaced_after_heavy_flooding_in_Burkina_Faso September 4, 2009]. Wikinews is a poor news source, neglected, unusued, rife with systemic bias and unable to adapt. The resources we spend on this project can be better allocated elsewhere. [[User:Resolute|Resolute]] ([[User talk:Resolute|talk]]) 04:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Very strong oppose''' and '''are you kidding me?''' I've written for both Spanish and recently English Wikinews. I know the stats my articles have gotten, and it's BS that there's no interest from a consumer/reader POV. Also the Spanish Wikinews Twitter has an incredible following. More editors are needed to review, sure, but both projects have engaged communities that work really hard to cover current events. Also, Wikinews is the only place where minority subjects can get equal attention, and that distinguishes it from any other news outlet in the world. But above all, the sheer gall of trying to close all Wikinews when you have no idea of the individual cases makes me think this is targetted for English Wikinews specifically, and the rest are collateral damage since "they must all be the same". Gah. [[User:Raystorm|Raystorm]] ([[User talk:Raystorm|talk]]) 09:33, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''Oppose in the stongest possible manner'''! Once again, the ''extremely-far-from-neutral'' Wikipedia Signpost is used by a few vocal opponents of ''Wikinews'' to launch an attempted mass-fratricide. It is their little "magazine of contrasting fawning adulation for Wikipedia, and barely-concealed contempt for sister projects" that has no place in the Foundation's family.
: A fork of English ''Wikinews'' was attempted due to community conflict, and I'm not at-all proud of how the debate went down in opposing making the project 'more like Wikipedia'.
: The fork failed. What did the Signpost do? They wrote big articles on the fork, and interviewed folks from it in a "we're really sorry you failed" fashion when it went down.
: I am utterly, utterly disgusted that this campaign is being launched against ''Wikinews'' when a new class of journalism students at the University of Wollongong begin to contribute to the project as part of their classwork.
: Disgusted. Utterly. It's like the IRA versus the British Government. Our Wikipedia-based opponents only need to be lucky once, ''Wikinews'' needs to be lucky '''all the time'''. --''[[n:User:Brianmc|Brian McNeil]]'' / ''[[n:User_talk:Brianmc|talk]]'' 10:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''Oppose.''' I like Wikinews and think it is a good idea. Wikipedia is not a news source. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 10:59, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Very strong oppose''', once again this position demonstrates a desire to destroy Wikinews to satisfy some ukases of wikipedians.-- [[n:fr:Utilisateur:Grondin|Bertrand GRONDIN]] [[File:Vendéen heart.png|12px|alt=|link=]] → ([[n:fr:Discussion Utilisateur:Grondin|Talk]]) 11:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*I'm '''oppose''' for mainly 2 reasons :
#Last summer, we helped some Africans users to create accounts on the French Wikipedia. For some of them, fr-wikinews can be a place where they create first hand news about their community or their POV about an international event (see for instance {{fr}} [[:n:fr:Catégorie:Forum mondial de la langue française]]), news that cannot be created on fr-wikipedia. On fr, [[deletionism]] is growing fast since ~2 years and many news are proposed to deletion even if there's a lot of sources.
#I ask my students to create news on fr-wikinews to inform French community about some discoveries in astronomy and to help them develop their ability with MediaWiki. I think that these news are useful (see {{fr}} [[:n:fr:Catégorie:Nouvelle du Projet:Cégep de Chicoutimi]]). [[:fr:Discussion utilisateur:Simon Villeneuve|Simon Villeneuve]] 11:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::: Simon, interesting uses of ''Wikinews''; I can see English is not your first language, since this is meta we all understand '''Non''' and you should be free to express your opinion in your mother tongue. --''[[n:User:Brianmc|Brian McNeil]]'' / ''[[n:User_talk:Brianmc|talk]]'' 11:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::::
::::Thank you. Please, feel free to correct my mistakes in my post. It will help me to express myself in a better English. [[:fr:Discussion utilisateur:Simon Villeneuve|Simon Villeneuve]] 12:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''VERY STRONG Oppose.''' Wikinews is a very important project, Wikipedia NEEDS Wikinews because Wikipedia is cyclopedia and Wikinews is NOT. News are not for encyclopedia, but are vital for encyclopedia to refer. News evolve real time, and we need to track this evolution of reality/facts. Wikipedia entries need cold head and stability. Worlds is full of encyclopedias but what about NEUTRAL log or journal of events ? --[[User:Divol|Divol]] ([[User talk:Divol|talk]]) 11:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - The main problem is that Wikinews is just not attracting editors. One can argue about the reasons why (an even more hostile admin/sysop pool than en.wikipedia, too many rules/policies, etc). But that is the main problem - not enough people are contributing - which results in other problems that have been mentioned above. The lack of enough good editors means that there aren't enough articles to have a "daily" edition, the articles are not timely, no coverage of major events, minor local events have articles([http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Outer_Hebrides_collision_kills_postman One-vehicle road traffic collision in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland]), "local community consensus" is driven by a very small number of people. Finally, there is open disdain for the foundation[http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Wikinews:Water_cooler/assistance&diff=1853556&oldid=1853496]. [[User:Trödel|Trödel]] ([[User talk:Trödel|talk]]) 13:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Very strong support''' - Stillbirth from the beginning. [[User:Marcus Cyron|Marcus Cyron]] ([[User talk:Marcus Cyron|talk]]) 13:59, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::You're right, same stupid stillbirth as e.g. this strange Wikipediaproject was in the beginning and long time after. --[[User:Itu|Itu]] ([[User talk:Itu|talk]]) 16:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::You're kidding. Latest in 2003 Wikipedia was grown up. 2 Years! WikiNews is dead since the beginning in 2005. 8 years of testing should be enough to see, that it don't work. [[User:Marcus Cyron|Marcus Cyron]] ([[User talk:Marcus Cyron|talk]]) 19:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::::Not really. The (DE-) project was quite active until a good part into 2007 when former Wikipedia admin -jha- killed it by deleting the German WP template linking to it. Activity down by 50 percent within a few weeks. [[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 23:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC) 
* '''VERY STRONG Suppose''', it's a really good lesson for Wikimedia launchs new projects officiously. Right, ''(English) Wikipedia'' is successful, but who read news by using Wikinews? PS: I believe WikiVoyage is also a failure.--[[User:Colour wolf|Colour wolf]] ([[User talk:Colour wolf|talk]]) 14:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Nobody say nothing about this in the projects, this procedure intend to close all the projects, please open a proposal for closing for individuals wikis one by one [[User:Ezarate|Esteban]] ([[User talk:Ezarate|talk]]) 15:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose'''. Per Divol. [[User:Suprememangaka|SM]] [[User talk:Suprememangaka|** =^^= **]] 16:08, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strongly oppose''' So, for the same reasons we should also close all the other projects except Wikipedia, Commons and Wikidata, all the other projects in all the language versions do not have much participation. should we? '''Of course not''', every little help for the development of the free culture is valuable. --[[File:Flag of Santiago de Cali.svg|25px]] [[Usuario:Remux|Remux]] - '''''Nunca Olvidaré, que me enamoré de la más hermosa flor.''''' [[Usuario Discusión:Remux|Ĉu mi povas helpi vin iel?]] 17:54, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
* I am disappointed at the way the discussion goes. I would like to remind you that Gestumblindi has put forth an analysis of Wikinews he had put a great effort into. If he points to the hostility we find here in return, he is putting it rather mildly and reserved. It is unacceptable to counter Gestumblindi's analysis with a sentence like: "I like Wikinews and think it is a good idea." This misses the point. The whole discussion is about the very fact that the project is de facto dead and it does not serve the purpose it was initially set up for, viz. to be a news source. It is a great waste of donors' money to keep it going at this stage. I suggest to take a still closer look at Wikinews and to evaluate the project. We must be clear about the fact that Wikinews has failed, so decisions have to be taken.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 19:09, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*: You may want to know that's only *'''half'''* the purpose of Wikinews. The other half is to serve as a permanent public record of news events. A considerable amount of daily Wikipedia effort, for example, goes into identify broken reference links to news sources which for one reason or another are no longer publicly available. A link to a Wikinews article, on the other hand, should not break at some point in the future. Of course, if the effort expended in finding new sources were instead applied to documenting current news... - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 21:46, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
*::You must be joking. Wikinews has an output of some three items per day. Compare this to the links inserted into Wikipedia. Embarrasing.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 01:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*::: Yes, let's compare this to the number of links inserting into Wikipedia. And reinserted when they break. And reinserted when those break. And so on. How much more effort would it be to write a brief synopsis, citing a few of those sources, for Wikinews ''and then never need to do the research again''? All it would take is a suggested best practices article. - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 04:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*: If by "Gestumblindi's analysis of Wikinews" you mean "proposal to disregard all the [[wikinews:WN:OR|original reporting]] going on and call the project inactive while it meets Wikimedia projects activity standards", you're welcome to keep demonstrating lack of competency both Wikinews documentation- and Wikimedia policies-wise. [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 03:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strongly oppose''' With conventional news sources in decline, we need Wikinews more than ever. [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 04:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

[[File:Wikinews original news reporting montly totals.png|500px|thumb|center|Table showing monthly totals for original reporting on several Wikinews projects from January 2012 to March 2013.]]
Wikinews provides an opportunity for citizen journalism. This material must be neutral and verifiable. This type of reporting, which is growing increasingly difficult to find quality wise due to newspapers cutting their budgets, is extremely difficult to do well. That 15 different languages have done some form of it in the past 15 months speaks to its importance. This is news that would likely not be told otherwise. All told, 684 pieces of original reporting have been done in this period. That is an average of 1.5 stories a day. These stories, once archived, provide a historical resource for others to use. English Wikinews leads all projects with 254 stories published in this period. Next comes the Polish (95), Russian (82), French (66), Spanish (63), German (38), Portuguese (17), Catalan (13) and Chinese (11). The peak month of production was September 2012, when 99 pieces of original reporting were produced across all languages. Next comes March 2013 (56), April 2012 (53), May 2012 (48), January 2012 (47), March 2012 (46), November and December 2013 (43 each), February 2012 (42), and August 2012 (41). We are successful. We do reporting no one else does it. And our numbers are holding steady. Beyond that, while production looks like it is going down, overall Original Reporting remains steady and our page views are going up. (See English and Spanish Wikinews traffic stats.) On average English Wikinews articles beat English Wikipedia DYKs (without pictures) for page views on the day they are published. --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 05:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''support''' Similar to a comment above, I think Wikimedia has too many projects which pull volunteers in too many directions. But since we do not have a policy for closing projects, perhaps this is where we should start. What makes a viable project?[[User:AlejandroLinaresGarcia|AlejandroLinaresGarcia]] ([[User talk:AlejandroLinaresGarcia|talk]]) 14:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*: It is true that we don't really have a policy for closing sister projects, but the [[Sister Projects Committee]] might be interested in commenting. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 14:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

* '''Strong support''' I agree with the opinions listed above. As a news website, this project cannot work without being professionalized. A wiki website is made to work on a long-term perspective of gathering information little by little. On a news portal, this idea worth nothing, as most information are valuable only for a short time. Plus, it seems that numerous Wikinews projects hosts a lot of biased and non-neutral information, as well as copyright infringement made by simply copying news from professional agencies. After 9 years, I see no ways this project could work, contrary to the other projects. --[[User:Kormin|Kormin]] ([[User talk:Kormin|talk]]) 16:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
**I would like to ask you what copyright infringement you see: Wikinews may occasionally copy content from external sources, but this ideally only happens if the content is high-quality enough, and if the license is free enough to be compatible; attribution is given where it's due. [[User:Gryllida|Gryllida]] 12:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

*''"oppose''' it seems like some people have a vendetta against wikinews spanning multiple years. I don't understand why. If you don't like wikinews, don't read it - why try and stop wikinews for those who do like it? [[User:Bawolff|Bawolff]] ([[User talk:Bawolff|talk]]) 16:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''THE STRONGEST OPPOSITION IN THE UNIVERSE''': Contribute to wikinews instead of loosing your time to discuss about closing it!
:Who '''stupidly''' opened this discussion '''without notifying''' contributors on all wikinews projects first? Why seems evident: to avoid too many oppose opinions from wikinews contributors.
:--[[User:DavidL|DavidL]] ([[User talk:DavidL|talk]]) 23:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''Strong Oppose''' One of the projects that should never shut down. It can give voice to people that don't have access to media, is neutral, is free. No way [[User:Glavkos|--Γλαύκος ]] ([[User talk:Glavkos|talk]]) 23:55, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''VERY STRONG OPPOSE''' on behalf of tamil wikinews.--[[User:Kanags|Kanags]] ([[User talk:Kanags|talk]]) 01:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Contents in Wikinews are not very reliable and the quality is now very high. I prefer some professional news agency. --[[User:Someone's Moving Castle|Someone's Moving Castle]] ([[User talk:Someone's Moving Castle|talk]]) 10:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

* '''Very strong oppose''' : I am an user of the french Wikinews and this wiki is very useful and neutral contrary to many medias. The slow activity is not a good reason to delete this project. [[User:Juraastro|Juraastro]] ([[User talk:Juraastro|talk]]) 21:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC).

* '''Support''' Wikinews is a completely failed project; English Wikinews is particularly bad. For a news project, slow activity is in and of itself, a fatal flaw; if the site cannot replace other news sites, and has no unique identity (such as a specialist focus), it is dead, whatever people may think who like to use it as a vanity site. [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 22:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

*'''Very strong oppose''' wikinews is a useful project and a complementary project to wikipedia --[[User:Mattho69|Mattho69]] ([[User talk:Mattho69|talk]]) 00:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - Unfortunately, Wikinews is largely useless if you are trying to get to-the-minute news updates on world matters. I don't use it personally, and know of no one that does. However, that's irrelevant. There is potential for this to be a great site. I think what is needed is a restructure, and for the community of Wikinews and the WMF to take another look and decide how to improve the project. One of the keys is cross-project collaboration. As an admin of [[voy:|Wikivoyage]], we are excited about the prospect of collaboration with Wikinews whereby they would provide us with travel news and warnings. And why doesn't Wikinews have any mobile apps? If Wikinews delivered news directly to people's devices, they may be more inclined to read it. It's these sort of ideas that could build upon the project. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 09:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

===Procedural notice===
(feel free to continue discussion in the section above, I'm just adding a headline for visibility). The [[Closing projects policy]] currently is not really made for proposals to discontinue entire projects; it is rather targeted at single language versions. Two basic cases are 1) inactive projects, which might revive later, which is why their content is moved to the Incubator, where it can still be edited, 2) unusual projects, such as Siberian [[SIB]]/[[SIB-DEL]] (note however that that case happened before the introduction of the current policy). 
In the last year, there were some thoughts to form a "[[sister projects committee]]" which would facilitate discussions like this one, [[Sister Projects Committee/Draft charter#Process 2b: Closing or spinning off sister projects|to close a complete sister project]]. Obviously, the committee is not (yet?) in existence, but it's clear that this can nevertheless be discussed by the community. Please just keep in mind that the current [[CPP]] is not expected to deal with a case like this, and so Langcom is not tasked to decide such a proposal. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 11:15, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
* Yes, this is not-remotely within closure policy bounds, and the proposer is being used as a [[wikt:patsy]].
: I welcome this discussion if it sees the Wikipediocracy and Wikipedia Review fifth-columnists exposed for the despicable hypocrites they are. Everyone knows who they are, but it's oh-so ''un''civil to point out this is a declaration of war on a sister project. --''[[n:User:Brianmc|Brian McNeil]]'' / ''[[n:User_talk:Brianmc|talk]]'' 14:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

=== Apologies ===
I had hoped for a rational discussion and am somewhat surprised at the hostility coming from some community members towards me; mainly from English-language Wikinews, as it seems. Probably I underestimated the negative emotions previous closure proposals must have caused. Let me reiterate that my preliminary discussion proposal here is wholly my own and I'm not part of any "anti-Wikinews conspiracy" or the like. That I'm using English Wikinews as a main example is because English happens to be the language I speak best after my native language of (Swiss) German. - I have read good arguments from French and Spanish Wikinews here. E.g. I didn't know of the educational activities going on in French Wikinews. Although this isn't what I'd suppose Wikinews was originally meant for, it sounds like a good project to me. And the large number of Twitter followers Spanish Wikinews has seems to indicate a better state of the project than I thought, too. Still, very many language versions show extremely little to no activity, and the project as a whole simply isn't a "news source", but I must concede - an across-the-board closure of Wikinews seems out of the question. So, please accept my apologies for making a proposal (even only for discussion) that was too sweeping. I suppose that we must continue discussing each language version separately. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 18:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:The result was entirely predictable, given that you chose this talk and that there was premature advertising on the Signpost (that also naturally triggered counter-advertising elsewhere).
:You could move all this section to the [[Wikimedia Forum]] and possibly close it and restart in a more general way (e.g. taking MF-W's consideration into account). --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 19:41, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::Well, this talk page seemed to be the appropriate one to talk about (possible) "proposals for closing projects", as the page is named. It wasn't my idea to write about this on the English Wikipedia's Signpost, the article there came as a surprise. A pleasant one, I thought at first, but then I was quite taken aback by the often aggressive response... this considerably has dampened my spirits and I feel I don't have the energy to discuss Wikinews in a climate of accusations and "conspiracy" innuendos. I'm currently more in a mood of "heck, let they do what they want, if Wikinews is that important to some..." - and as said above, there may be meaningful projects developed in some Wikinews language versions which may fulfill a different good purpose, if not quite the originally intended one of Wikinews as a "news source". I would ''like'' to continue discussion, but only based on objective observations - for example, if I ask "there are often no news on Wikinews in language X for days, how is this project useful?", the answer that it may still serve as a platform for training of journalism students is meaningful and helpful (maybe, in such a case the project should change its official profile). Metaphors of war and aggression aren't helpful. [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 20:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
::: I'll suppose here that you really were blindsided, not realizing you were stepping in a political hornets' nest. The anti-Wikinews faction aren't remotely secret; they've been historically quite open about their intentions, they employ non-rational tactics (see [[w:On Bullshit]]; seriously, do see it, it's quite interesting), and if you'd come to English Wikinews — with a friendly attitude and without presuppositions — we could have told you what would happen. We could also have pointed out the fundamental flaws of reasoning that underlie your suggestion, as that reasoning is set forth at the top of this thread. I do have some sympathy for someone who hopes for a reasonable discussion and steps instead into such a messy political reality. However, to be honest, my sympathy for your plight is quite limited because you didn't bother to ask us. You decided to propose shutting down Wikinews '''without''' first approaching the Wikinews community with an open mind and talking to us and learning what we do and how we do it. I can scarcely think of adjectives strong enough to describe what a poor decision that was on your part. --[[User:Pi zero|Pi zero]] ([[User talk:Pi zero|talk]]) 22:08, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: That's not quite true or fair. Gestumblindi first approached de.WN with this suggestion 8 months ago: https://de.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Feedback#Gebt.27s_auf. The user may have been more aggressive with xyr presentation then than now, which shows an improvement over time. - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 22:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: Probably you're right and I should have approached more big language versions of Wikinews first (as mentioned above, I already told German Wikinews last year that I don't think it's producing useful content). As this isn't about one specific language version, but Wikinews in its entirety, I was looking for the appropriate central place to start a discussion, and here it seemed most fitting, as there is no general "Wikinews discussion" for all language versions, as far as I'm aware. But yes - even though it's just asking for opinions and no formal proposal, members of individual Wikinews communities might feel ignored, I understand this now. I was too much looking just at the content (or lack thereof) I saw and neglected the community aspect. Still, maybe my results-based approach may give some food for thought...? If you try to step out of your role as a Wikinews community member and visit the site like a complete outsider, does it offer the content you would expect from its description as a "news source"? If not, maybe what you do there should be given a different frame and description? [[User:Gestumblindi|Gestumblindi]] ([[User talk:Gestumblindi|talk]]) 22:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::As I told you elsewhere I find this discussion necessary and important even if I am not consenting in your conclusions, and we discussed some of the issues within [[:w:de:WD:Kurier]]; however the problem is much more complex as it seems.
:::::# The absolutely lack of support by the foundation, they even don't have a clue how to support the smaller projects. After creating them the foundation appearantla forgot about Wikinews, Wikisource, Wikiquote, Wikibooks and Wikiversity. Heck, we even get Wiki'''pedia''' fundraising banners on those projects and they just don't care about us. The foundation has no idea what to do for improving the situation within the smaller communities, the have no concept for propagation of those projects.
:::::# The lack of technical support. Hey, some months ago a bot put a notice in the German pressroom that now a mobile version is available. Who the fuck should fill the German Wikinews main page with content? There is no active Wikinews user who knows about what to do. So the feature can't be used, isn't used and the German Wikinews mobile main page is empty, absolutely empty. But that's not a mistake of the German Wikinews community.
:::::# The hostility other projects are exercising, beginning with not linking the project as sister project at all ([[:s:de:Hauptseite|example]]) and removing linked articles within the German WP on a regular base. Even the template, similar to [[:w:en:Template:Current event]], which linked to such an article on DE:Wikinews was deleted in DE:WP. However this all is a result of the points above: why they should respect us if even the foundation gives a shit?
:::::# If one tells you, hey, does that make sense, for the first time then you say, yeah why not and you are continuing. If they tell you the whole project is crap every time the discussion is raised one gets fatiguée and looses all the little motivation he still has.
:::::# And, I clashed with Pi Zero on that, especially the English Wikinews has a community problem and more a communication problem. It's too complicated to get an article approved and published. There is no doubt that we need quality but I believe that the way of doing the review in the English Wikinews actually does not attract any writing users.
:::::--[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 23:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::Matthiasb, I don't deny that there are problems with the WMF's (lack of) support for sister projects. I'd like to ask a couple of clarifying questions, if I may, about the issues you raised though.
:::::::::#Are you really getting Wiki'''pedia''' fundraising banners this year? I know they've been VERY careful about that the last three years. If it's still a problem, can you point me to one? Did you report the problem, so that the WMF could correct it? That's a huge issue, and nobody thinks it's okay.
:::::::::#The mobile version: many, many sites have managed to get a mobile version up. If the documentation was lacking or non-existent in German, I'm terribly sorry about that. But again, I'd ask if you let us know that, so that we could correct the problem? If so, please tell me who, and I'll follow-up and see that it is resolved immediately. Regardless, I'm going to ask one of our mobile developers to come by and see if they can help with that.
:::::::::Thank you (very sincerely) for pointing out these issues. We don't deny that there have been missteps in the past, but I'm very pleased with how we've turned things around, on the whole, and we'd like the chance to correct these. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 04:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Yes we got, and it certainly were other projects as well, according to [http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_Diskussion:Kurier&diff=116083390&oldid=116080636 Stepro's edit], but I don't know in which project he is active, besides DE:WP. It might be because the translation(s) was missing or did not came in time but one cannot really expect a community of a handful or two active users to translate fundrising banners. I believe that this is a common issue with the smaller projects. By the way the whole fundraising campaign is Wikipedia centered, many of the banners do not make sense within the other projects at all. Concerning your second question: atm I don't know about even one DE:Wikinews sysop knowing about how to handle technical issues. There is a How-to needed, first do that, then that, third... most of the MediaWiki doccumentation is not understandable for people not affine to informatics. See, I learned to programm some BASIC programmes almost three decades ago and then I finished school and never needed such stuff again and stlll remember some syntax of DOS 5 ;-) but that rudimentary knowledge does not help very much. I can delete a page or block a user but won't be able to put a piece of Java script together, even some part of Wiki syntax is hard to understand (and I believe that Lua won't perform good in this aspect). Actually translating a template is easier than understanding how it works or putting it together from the scratch. (Some other aspects I've ranted here and elsewhere about I would like to discuss with you on your talk page because of they're not really related to the issue discussed her. I hope to get that together maybe tomorrow.) --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 15:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::Mathiasb, whatever the WMF would do, it's a marketing problem in the first place. Everyone knows Wikipedia, no one knows the sister projects or ever will. They should be included in Wikipedia namespaces. Including Meta. Then, we could also have them on one single watchlist. If it stays the way it is nothing will ever change.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 01:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Of course it is a marketing problem. But what can the active users do about that? What can five or twelve active users do to promote the project? My mission was (and I am still committed to do so) to write articles which ccomplemment their Wikipedia counterparts, to give background which the Wikipedia article can't, be it were too much details or be it encyclopedical inappropriate or irrelevant but even though are interesting to understand what happened for which reason. A typical case would be the Mali news article I did after the coup d'etat last spring. It was intended to serve as a resource when one would write the Wikipedia article. It actually turned out that the creators of the Mali coup d'etat article never knew about my Mali article until into a good part of the Western intervention in Northern Mali during this year's January. Of course it's a marketing problem. But the WMF does not even habe a policy or at least a rule wether one project has to link to a specific sister project. German Wikisource does not link to Wikinews, not on the main page and even not from a specific document, e.g. a court ruling on to the Wikinews reporting about that specific court ruling. You know about how arrogant and ignorant a small but dominating part of the German Wikisource community is. Or: German Wikinews lost half its users and the number of new articles per day went down by 50 percent in 2007 only after the fact that some idiots in Wikipedia believed that the using of [[:w:de:Vorlage:Neuigkeiten]] (similar to [[:n:en:Template:Current event]]) should not be allowed in Wikipedia articles and the template was deleted. There even was a movemment of the same faction of idiots to oust even articles in the Wikipedia dealing with current events, they even tried to get rid of the Lebanon war article in 2006 or to delete the "in the news" box on the main page a year later, and they dominated the German WP for years, and the turning point was reached only when they were unsuccessful to delete the article on Jerome Kerviel because of claimed lack of notability. We remember, that was the bank guy who "lost" two billion dollar and triggered the development of the international financial crisis. Those WP vice guys damaged Wikinews for years and it is hard to turn back all this mistakes and wrong developments. Of course it is a marketing problem, and it is a marketing problem for which the Wikimedia Foundation is highly responsible. --[[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 09:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
::::::::Matthiasb, we shouldn't carry on investing time and effort into a project nobody ever cares about out there. There are other ways of documenting current events in a wiki such as [[:w:de:2013]] or [[:w:en:Portal:Current events]] that are also much more attractive to readers. There is not a lack of information and news reporting out there, but there is a lack of explaining the news. That's why Wikipedia is that successful, and Wikinews has failed. No one needs a re-telling of those stories, there are algorithms for that of late. We need analysis and documentation, and that's done in WP on the pages I've just mentioned above.--[[User:Aschmidt|Aschmidt]] ([[User talk:Aschmidt|talk]]) 20:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

:*I'm surely accepting your apology. However please don't try to present ignorance of what [[wikinews:WN:OR|original reporting]] is for and what Wikimedia projects activity policies are as a go at starting rational discussion. I'm sure that Wikinews community would be ready to stick to its [[wikinews:WN:Never assume|never assume]] philosophy when seeing your future proposals and react to them based on their content — exactly what they say on the tin — without an attempt at making the mistake of assuming '''''good''''' faith, because none of this proposal gives any grounds for such assumption. [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 03:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
* I'm happy to accept the apology; but, have a think. Who did you discuss this with beforehand? Who, exactly, has played you as a [[wikt:patsy]] for their own hate-on against ''Wikinews''? I stand by my assertion that The Signpost should be closed down; an olde-worlde font does not stop it being a fount of hate against other projects, and one assumes it's poison-pen little clique imagines they're the Peter Parkers of the wiki world.
: You were played. As I say, I'm quite happy to accept your apology. But, '''''I, and I suspect the entire Wikinews community, want a front-page, bold-type, apology from those shitheads at the Signpost.''''' The only other thing I'll settle for is their editing privileges being removed. Permanently.
: And as-to "having this discussion elsewhere", you've brought me to the point of extreme profanity. Grow some goddamned balls and have the discussion on ''Wikinews'' without wankers who want to rewrite the project's policies to make it "Wikipedia lite", and involving people who are prepared to learn how those policies work before attempting to suggest alterations.
: I've not seen one Wiki'''pedian''' here acknowledge 'McNeil's axiom of news': ''Facts don't cease to be fact, but news ceases to be news.'' They're too busy worrying about how many millions will read their inane "recentism" drivel on Wikipedia, and the wannabe journalists amongst them, particularly those within the above-mentioned fanzine, couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag. Yes, contributing to ''Wikinews'' is not easy, it's not for everyone, but those who put in the effort and succeed will tell you why it is a valuable project.
: They will do so with a far-better grasp of their chosen language, with anecdoes on improved grades for written classwork stemming from the "''Wikinews'' regime", and a healthy respect for the quality journalism the project does.
: A newsroom does not operate with the same collegality as The Other Place's Village Pump. Our learning curve is steep, but short; akin to a semester-long course that is scarily difficult, but offering a chance to learn skills that will serve you through the rest of your life. Ask any ''Wikinewsie'', including those who've quit due to other priorities in their lives, this simple question: "What, to you, is having a ''Wikinews'' Featured Article worth?"
: Now, excuse me, I have a POINT to make that involves the real world, and '''''real''''' journalism. --''[[n:User:Brianmc|Brian McNeil]]'' / ''[[n:User_talk:Brianmc|talk]]'' 10:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

=== The challenges of wiki journalism ===

I don't know if anyone still remembers me, but I was the founder of OpenGlobe, the now-defunct fork of en.wikinews. During the year in which my project existed, I gained much insight into how citizen journalism works and the immense challenges it faces. Thus, I feel somewhat qualified to offer some of my experiences on the subject, if anyone finds them useful.

I think we're being sidetracked by emotions and politics. It's not helpful to generalise with statements like "Wikinews projects are unfriendly" or "Wikinews is useless" or "Wikipedia/Wikimedia is uncaring". The issue here is deeper. The fundamental question is, to what extent is the journalism model realistically workable through the wiki medium.

Wikinews is unique. On most wikis, you can contribute as much or as little as you like, over an indeterminate time period. A Wikibook manual can be fleshed out over many months by many contributors; there is no rush to churn out a Wikispecies taxonomy. The participants' size and activity level can be low without loss of relevance. This flexibility allows a modest wiki to eventually become highly comprehensive -- as is the case with Wikipedia, or to a lesser degree, Wiktionary. The other WMF projects are not there yet, but the potential for expansion is always present.

But Wikinews is the odd man out. Journalism demands a perpetual flow of content. With paid journalists, there is no difficulty in satisfying this demand because that is their job. But what happens when you replace paid workers with volunteers who write in their free time? The content flow becomes inconsistent since there is no schedule that must be adhered to. You can't fire volunteers for not contributing enough.

Picture a bowl with many small holes. If you pour water into the bowl at a fast enough rate, water will accumulate despite the leakage. But the moment the water flow stops, the bowl empties. The water is usefulness and content; the bowl is the wiki. Wikinews has to struggle against this sieve every day. As a result, it has no chance of slowly evolving into a large, broad project like the other wikis, whose bowls are watertight. Instead, it can only hope to break even in the short-term. My OpenGlobe could not escape this difficulty despite the userbase's great energy and efficiency. Even with great freedom to brainstorm new policies, OpenGlobe could not capitalise on energy spurts. A single slow day would nullify a week's productivity.

Notice [http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikinews/EN/ChartsWikipediaEN.htm this chart] of en.wikinews --in particular, the articles per day, which is the indicator of WN's relevance as opposed to total articles. The peak was in 2006-2007; but since then it's slid downwards. For the past three years the stats have flatlined. Remember that other WMF projects rarely, if ever, experience this sustained, sharp decrease in content. Content-wise, they can only go up, or at worst remain stagnant, barring mass deletions or outright closure.

I do not believe Wikinews is a failure. But it's not a success, either, and I believe it is inherently unable to succeed. The empirical data offer no hope of a slow but steady expansion -- which is the way almost every wiki or open-source project becomes successful. I won't argue for or against closure, but I wish to stress that the issue is not so black and white as many people make it out to be.

-[[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 05:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

* A bit of history you told there, and while not particularly important, there are two questions I have to you. Is there some software (not a wiki software) you think would be a better choice? Or do you think that, nomatter the software, volunteer-based journalism is doomed to fail? [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 06:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
*:I don't think wikis were ever intended for the journalism model. They're geared towards evolution -- a page is always editable, always a work in progress. But once a news story has passed a certain threshold, it becomes an artefact, "set in stone". For instance, Wikinews has to full-protect mainspace pages ''en masse'' -- a logical practice, but something that is highly against the general wiki spirit.
*:Could another platform work better? I couldn't say. I suspect WordPress-style software would offer more opportunities. But in a broader sense, I doubt that a purely volunteer news project is possible with Wikimedia's ideals of neutrality and professionality. If you look at existing citjournalism websites (e.g. IndyMedia), you'll notice that most, if not all, consist primarily of biased reports and/or tabloid-quality content. The contributors' main motivation is the ability to air their views in a prominent forum. Contrariwise, there is little to no incentive for people to write neutrally and professionally for free. [[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 06:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::It's great to see recognise the unique philosophy of being neutral, as unrealistic as you pictured its implementation if volunteer-run. Is there an infrastructure you could suggest which would involve people working for Wikinews full-time? Would you want Wikimedia to sponsor one full-time employee for Wikinews to resolve this issue? If not, where do you suggest taking the employees from? [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 06:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::: One full-time employee per language? More like ten to twelve. --[[Special:Contributions/88.70.67.73|88.70.67.73]] 14:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
:::::Having a paid editor would certainly help maintain a steadier content flow. But I'm not sure whether the local communities would want this. Wikinews prides itself on its independence and freedom from external influence, a luxury not afforded to most professional news organisations who are owned by a corporation or conglomerate. In the past, en.wikinews has run stories that portray the Foundation in a negative light (incurring displeasure from the Foundation in the process). Having paid editors would likely curtail this freedom.
:::::That being said, I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, ''per se''. I just worry whether it's compatible with Wikimedia's overall ethos. To my knowledge, no other content project has a Foundation-sponsored contributor. If we went down that road, I don't think we could consider Wikinews to be a fully volunteer project. [[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 15:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
{{outdent}}I think your "bowl full of holes" metaphor perfectly describes how the volunteer run wiki model simply does not work as a news network. Major news networks like CNN or the BBC have offices with reporters, cameramen, editors, etc in dozens of major cities around the globe doing professional journalism 24 hours a day 365 days a year , and their content is ''just as free as Wikinews''. It isn't like Wikipedia or Commons where there basically is no other free source like it, there are dozens of other free sources, all of them far superior at reporting the news in a timely fashion, updating stories as the progress, providing comprehensive coverage of all the days newsworthy events, providing sound and images to accompany the reporting, and having strong editorial oversight and a robust support mechanism for the reporters. No wikinews project is ever going to come close to what the actual pro journalists are also giving away. No disrespect intended to the folks who volunteer their time and energy to produce what content these sites to have, but it simply is not a relevant news source and without a massive influx of cash to support paid staff like a real news organization it is unlikely it ever will be. [[User:Beeblebrox|Beeblebrox]] ([[User talk:Beeblebrox|talk]]) 19:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The solution would be to take a bowl with less holes. That means, for example, writing only about the [[:en:Free culture movement]]. And there is no need to publish each day, the Singpost publishes once a week. --[[User:Goldzahn|Goldzahn]] ([[User talk:Goldzahn|talk]]) 12:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

=== Moving to Wikipedia? ===

As an early Wikinews contributor (and a one-time bureaucrat), I support the closure of Wikinews. My reasoning is akin to that of others: the project's goals are important, and it isn't failing -- but neither is it succeeding. Ultimately, for the good of the project goals I think it's best to find another way to accomplish them. Clearly, the necessity to maintain a high flow rate of new articles is hurting Wikinews: it looks stale, and is not useful as a news site. It is, however, useful as a peer-reviewed method of creating, editing, and sharing articles. It has a well-established history and process for gathering original reporting in a coherent, open way.

My strong recommendation is to fold Wikinews into Wikipedia. Having a "News" tab attached to articles, and thus a separate namespace with a separate set of policies, can radically change the picture. It would pull contributors from Wikipedia at a much faster rate, yet remain separately edited to a large degree and could continue to follow established policies within its namespace. If the article rate was high enough, a separate curated News portal could be established, aggregating the best recent news articles into a sort of a home page.

Without a radical change, Wikinews is unable to achieve its important mission: to provide a valuable open-content, NPOV news source. It clearly can do this on a tiny, tiny scale -- but never, in its current shape, at a large one. -- [[User:IlyaHaykinson|IlyaHaykinson]] ([[User talk:IlyaHaykinson|talk]]) 16:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)0

* '''Very strong oppose''' moving from wikinews to a bigger wikipedia where most readers won't find it. Il feel quite proud about my creation: http://fr.wikinews.org/wiki/France_:_Noon-Boll,_un_nouveau_gratuit_%C3%A0_la_D%C3%A9fense and even published several new entries on the '''British''' wikinews while it is '''not''' obviously my '''native''' language. The main problem is '''where to publish''' new entries such as the one above. [[:fr:Michel Alençon]] aka [[Special:Contributions/82.224.88.52|82.224.88.52]] 18:49, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

* Oppose... The original proposer already asked this. As much as it hurts to say you asking it again shows that you can't read. What I said to this was: ''The "Wikipedia already does news" argument is also invalid because Wikinews, [[wikinews:Wikinews:For_Wikipedians|unlike Wikipedia]], welcomes original research in the shape of [[wikinews:WN:OR|original reporting]] activity''. Please '''''read the friendly manual and think twice before you post'''''. --[[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 23:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
** Well, before there would be a move to Wikipedia, we would need a project wide RfC that allows Original reporting and does relative dating. English Wikipedia would really require that RfC internally first given the huge resistance inside the project for covering breaking news events. English Wikipedia notability standards would require a change. So is this an admission that English Wikipedia is fundamentally flawed because the notability requirement is not functional? Is it an admission that English Wikipedia editors who oppose new coverage are fundamentally flawed in their thinking and Wikipedia should function more like a news organization? [[:n:Brookfield, Wisconsin man charged with stealing toilet and urinal parts|Brookfield, Wisconsin man charged with stealing toilet and urinal parts]] is a recent English Wikinews article. Let's see how that would be realized on Wikipedia. Please get that into [[:w:WP:ITN]] as an example of Wikipedia doing news coverage so, we Wikinews from various languages, can see how this proposed solution would actually work! In the mean time, English Wikipedians and German Wikipedians, please read [[n:de:Wikinews:Originäre Berichterstattung]], [[n:es:Wikinoticias:Reportajes originales]], [[n:fa:ویکی‌خبر:خبر_دست_اول]], [[n:fr:Wikinews:Reportage original]] for starters. --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 23:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC) Fixed some red links [[User:Matthiasb|Matthiasb]] ([[User talk:Matthiasb|talk]]) 15:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
*** I am not suggesting that this would be done within the main Wikipedia namespace. Wikipedia already has vastly different rules for what can go in the User: namespace vs Talk: namespace vs. Wikipedia: namespace vs the main namespace. It is entirely feasible to add a new namespace with a very different set of rules. I would never support having the two use shared rules: WP is WP and WN is WN. But in my opinion there is no reason to make WN a separate site with a separate audience: I think we should be bringing WP and WN as close as possible -- and my suggestion of having a News namespace certainly does that. -- [[User:IlyaHaykinson|IlyaHaykinson]] ([[User talk:IlyaHaykinson|talk]]) 04:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
**** You would still need a site wide RfC that allows original reporting and no rules regarding notability. Go start an RfC on English Wikipedia about creating a separate name space for original news reporting. You patently do NOT need Wikinews closed to do this. See how far it gets you. Be clear in your English Wikipedia RfC that you highlight original reporting/research will be conducted and there will be zero notability guidelines. When I see your RfC, you can be taken seriously. In the meantime, I would love to see you on English Wikinews working with our style guide and policies trying to write news. I bet you can't get an article published because you will not be willing to adapt to local policies. Care to take that bet? --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 07:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
* Given the near-impossibility of consensus on large-scale decisions at Wikipedia and the long-standing ban on original material, I think it's unrealistic to expect Wikinews' firsthand-reporting model to be replicated. Any merge would strip Wikinews down to exclusively synthesis reporting, which is essentially what Wikipedia already does. Wikipedia ''is'' a news source, although it doesn't want to label itself as such. (Oh, and Ilya, it's nice to see you again. [[image:smile.png]]) [[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 23:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
** (waves to Tempodivalse) While it's hard to achieve this kind of a decision, I think that it honestly would be the best for WN. There is a ban on original material in ''encyclopedic content''. There is all the reason in the world to clearly differentiate encyclopedic from news content whether there are two sites or two tabs. I think that with some finesse and proper guidelines this should not be impossible. -- [[User:IlyaHaykinson|IlyaHaykinson]] ([[User talk:IlyaHaykinson|talk]]) 04:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
**: Actually, I agree with this proposed model, primarily to improve Wikipedia. Wikipedia *is* doing news, and doing it very poorly, because they have to bend a news article out of shape to somehow qualify as 'encyclopedic'. It is much easier to move an article to a namespace than to enforce article transwikiing. The larger community would likely be less-controlled by a few entrenched community members, more able to admit bureaucratic dead-ends. More importantly, there would likely be more-consistent churn in the contributor pool.
**: On the third hand, that isn't what discussion was intended to be about. That's a ''constructive'' thread, which imo does not belong in this section due to its foreignness. - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 04:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

===English Wikinews has serious community problems in addition to the failure of its website model===
I speak here with my community editor hat on. I've spoken above about the failed website model for WN, and would probably have avoided raising the matter of the poisonous community culture at en.WP; but I've just noticed that Brian McNeil [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AProposals_for_closing_projects%2FClosure_of_English_Wikinews&diff=5355698&oldid=4781248 has just posted a particularly personalised comment] at the last Meta discussion on closing WN. I ask him now to avoid personal slurs and to keep to the facts (actually, he might consider striking that comment).The pity is that Mr McNeil has a long history of bullying on en.WN and of fomenting a very negative ''us and them'' anti-Wikipedia culture. Like many a person in positions of power over a small, outlying branch-office, he has gathered a loyal band of supporters who do his bidding as well. Unsurprisingly, some are already posting on this page.

It's amazing that someone [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User_talk:Tempodivalse/Archive_16#Incoming.2C_caustic.2C_comment who said the following], and many things like it, is still in a position of authority at en.WN:

*"You fucking ignorant bastard. You wasted over 30 minutes of my time filling in this section with a relatively constructive comment, lacking in expletives, by '''''editing the whole bloody page, and causing an edit conflict'''''. Get a fucking grip, get a fucking clue, and stop being so bloody desperate to have the last word. Your idiocy is costing me money. ..."

Not unexpectedly, the user to whom that was directed left shortly after. Many good editors have resigned from en.WN under a dark cloud with which Mr McNeil seemed to be associated; I won't bother listing them here, but it's easy enough to do so if anyone asks.

You might wonder why the Foundation puts up with this behaviour. Mr McNeill has been admonished by the Foundation on at least one occasion—but still nothing happens. In particular, I draw your attention to a post by Philippe Beaudette, then Head of Reader Relations (now Director of Community Advocacy) at the WMF:

*"As you all know well, the Wikimedia Foundation is loathe to engage in the internal decision making processes of the wikis. We've traditionally held the view that the communities govern themselves well, and without our interference. We continue to hold that view, and I'm not coming in wielding a big weapon or anything here. However, I think that sometimes the best thing I can do is to share my opinion, because I'm in the lucky position of being paid to watch and think about our projects all the time.I am gravely concerned about some of the quotes that I'm seeing from Brian. In particular, I believe that [http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tempodivalse&diff=prev&oldid=1064471 this] comment is beyond the pale. I'm embarrassed for our projects that someone in a leadership role left a message like that. While there's no meta policy for civility, there is a ''moral'' requirement that we treat each other with kindness and respect. I wish I could say that this is the first "slip up" of the type from Brian, but I can't help but see a pattern of uncivil discourse that is troubling from an acknowledged leader in this project.I'm not going to try to tell this community how to treat it's own... but I strongly encourage you to think about how you want to be represented. These types of affairs are the ones that bubble up when people talk about bullying on our projects. These are the ones that contribute to public perception. Please know that I condemn, in the strongest possible terms, recent uncivil statements from Brian, particularly given what appears to be an ongoing and worsening problem."

However, the Foundation apparently doesn't want the trouble that would be involved either in banning Mr McNeil from en.WN or in closing a site on which:
*(i) a poisonous culture has long been in evidence;
*(ii) numbers and activity remain moribund (probably largely due to (i)); ''and''
*(iii) the output model has manifestly failed.

This is an instance where the Foundation ''does'' need to act, and all members of the movement who care about our trademark and reputation should encourage action. Before members of the mutual support faction on en.WN come in to impale me, please think first about how you'd be reinforcing outside perceptions of your project.

[[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 03:31, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
::Let's try to notify people when we quote them, eh? Particularly on contentious topics? For the record, I would not support a ban on Brian. Nor would I propose any such thing. I have seen marked improvement in his discourse since that statement. Regardless, we have no policy that I am aware of that would support such a ban, and I'm not gleeful about regulating speech in quite THAT way. Brian has years of content contribution under his belt, and that (perhaps inappropriately) buys him a little bit of leeway with me. So would I, in a perfect world - if I could - ban him? I would not. I might strongly suggest that he reduce his leadership activities until he's taken a vacation and re-grouped, but I would not support a ban. [[User:Philippe (WMF)|Philippe (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Philippe (WMF)|talk]]) 04:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

:*Brian McNeil's phrasings are not poor-grounded, but rather, are based on evidence; [[wikinews:WN:Never assume|never assuming]] is a Wikinews concept, replacing the AGF policy on Wikipedia and its few sisters. If a contributor has shown no interest in working toward productive result, they will not be babysit in a '''''hope''''' of that they would learn; if they demonstrate learning abilities, they get what they aim for. Eventually it could be a good idea if, instead of supporting and encouraging wastes of time on groundless proposals of closing Wikinews, you worked on things you like and let the project do what it wants. Your actions are poor grounded and not sensible compared to the object of your critique. [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 07:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
:*I have to note that I personally got a lot of help from Brian McNeil during my introductory period: I, as newcomers typically do, made wrong assumptions, missed some points, and didn't know what others mean; simply asking questions works. This folk isn't made of stone or of small angry rats; he is happy to clear confusion if he sees that I want to know things. Please see '''[[wikinews:User_talk:Gryllida/2009|here]]'''. --[[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 07:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
::* I also have to say that I have had a positive experience with Brian. I met him in person and he is a primary reason why I contribute. With Wikinews, I honestly feel like a part of the community where we all work towards a common goal. With Wikipedia, I feel isolated or like other people are competing with me for things I do not understand. I find the English Wikipedia community to be inherently more toxic. If I was to shut a project down based solely on the community aspect, it would be English Wikipedia. You have the Signpost actively working against the Wikimedia Foundation. You have people who make false and unsubstantiated allegations on a regular basis who face few consequences for their actions. You have users telling eachother to fuck off. You have a community that cannot cope with the size to deal with copyright violations, that cannot get source verification down, that cannot lock good versions of the article to preserve things that have been checked. You have leaked e-mails. The community has a policy of assume good faith, which results in people getting away with all sorts of crap because you have to assume that copyright violations and personal attacks were intended to be positive actions. You have nationalists pushing points of view. You have religious people pushing points of view. There is no control mechanism, and it would be too expensive to pay people to actually supervise that. English Wikipedia has no guiding principles to which the community can even agree to in terms of working towards a common goal. You have people like tony1 who come in and wish death on others and engage in active harassment of people they dislike which drives down editor retention. I have never experienced any of these things at English Wikinews... well, except tony1's harassment. English Wikinews as a community is not broken. Our community does not think it is broken. Any suggestions to the contrary are people misrepresenting reality to suit themselves. --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 07:39, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Philippe: you say:
*"Brian has years of content contribution under his belt"—so what? Why does that give him the right to be rude and abusive to other editors?
*"and that (perhaps inappropriately) buys him a little bit of leeway with me"—Inappropriate, eh? Thanks for admitting that.
*"I might strongly suggest that he reduce his leadership activities until he's taken a vacation and re-grouped, but I would not support a ban."—A long vacation, yes. I'm surprised to hear you encourage him to "re-group". He's got his mafia-style group already, so hardly needs to renew it. Better that he function as an editor in a non-administrative role, and stop bullying. Would you like more diffs to his abusive behaviour? I do believe that it's part of the reason that en.WN is moribund, and is therefore highly relevant to this discussion. [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 08:11, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
::That's when one may consider taking opponents of Brian McNeil's behaviour onto Wikinews to support removal of his crat flag instead of escalating the issue to meta. There is enough administrators with access to logs to ensure that Brian doesn't abusive his privvy bits for hiding proposals for his own flags removal. Escalation to Meta may be redundant given that Wikinews does not violate Wikimedia policies and wasting time of Meta community or WMF employees may be of little value, here. [[Special:Contributions/Gryllida|Gryllida]] 09:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
:::I am uncomfortable with the way many Wikipedians are trying to shut down Wikinews. This level of wiki-politics irritates me, and I think these proposals might have a negative effect on Wikinews' productivity. As someone who has edited many tiny wikis under constant threat of closure, I can tell you that there is no incentive to edit a project that might not be around tomorrow based on which way a Meta thread turns.
:::That being said, I'd like to respectfully suggest, as a former Wikinews bureaucrat who has been deeply involved behind-the-stage for years, that you (Gryllida and LauraHale) are oversimplifying the issue through anecdotal accounts. I'm sincerely happy you were able to get involved, and you have both been invaluable contributors; however, you cannot therefore conclude that all newcomers' experiences must have been equally positive. My initial time with Wikinews was also highly enjoyable; but over the years, as I started to perceive flaws in the structure and tried to point them out, things went downhill. You can have a great experience at Wikinews as long as you don't disagree with the status quo too often.
:::True, the ''remaining'' userbase does not see a problem. '''However''', that's because all users who believed the community was broken have already left - they either migrated to the fork or ceased editing altogether. The remaining contributors are highly like-minded. While this uniformity reduces the risk of internal conflict, it also means community is less accepting of new ideas. Outsiders have no voice and are often looked down upon. A group that is unanimous in its opinions and isolates itself from any differing perspectives for a long time tends to gradually become even more closed-minded, and risks losing touch with reality. This is sociologically demonstrable both in real-life and internet communities. Say what you want about Wikipedia, but it has no shortage of intellectual diversity.
:::I've made my peace long ago with the Wikinews community. Even though I can no longer edit there, I sincerely want to see Wikinews thrive, and I have no agenda to see anyone banned or the project closed. But I do believe this is a good time for us to acknowledge Wikinews' problems and hopefully learn from past mistakes. [[User:Tempodivalse|'''Tempodivalse''']] [[User talk:Tempodivalse#top|[talk]]] 15:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

=== Time for some introspection ===

I think it’s clear from this discussion thus far that there will be no consensus to close Wikinews at this point in time. It would be good if we could use the opportunity to actually look at how the projects are operating though, because even by the most generous possible interpretations most language editions are failing to meet their stated mission of providing up-to-date and relevant news content (I possibly exclude the Russian and Serbian editions from this, which seem to be doing better than the other language editions)

To my mind, despite the considerable accomplishments of the English Wikinews community, the project is quite obviously sick and needs medicine in the form of some changes the way it operates. Sticking heads in the sand and pretending that everything is fine is not an option when key measurements such as the number of active editors, and the number of articles being published per month, are on a long-term decline.

There is an extensive bureaucracy and process on Wikinews to get a news article published, which works against the “anyone can edit” philosophy, and provides a high barrier to entry against new users. The MediaWiki software, which is great for collaborative content building in a situation like an encyclopædia where entries must be constantly updated, is not well suited to a news publishing environment where pages ideally experience an initial flurry of editing, and then nothing after a week or so. Using a Wiki for this task is akin to using a hammer to nail in a screw. Finally, it’s obvious that there are some problems in the community – healthy communities simply do not lose half of their contributors in forking events. I’m no longer embedded enough within this community to talk reliably about what those problems might be, but toxic communities rarely produce much high-quality content. To produce the constant torrent of content that Wikinews needs in order to successfully fulfil its mission, it will need more editors, not less.

Ultimately, it is up to the English Wikinews community whether they wish to try and arrest the slow decline at Wikinews, which will almost certainly involve the remaining community members moving outside of their comfort zones and doing some things differently, or continue presiding as the kings and queens of a dying project. [[User:Lankiveil|Craig Franklin]] ([[User talk:Lankiveil|talk]]) 12:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC).
:"Healthy communities simply do not lose half of their contributors in forking events" Erm, yes. Spanish Wikipedia fork rings a bell? That wasn't about the community. It certainly didn't kill Spanish Wikipedia, which will reach a million articles in a month or two. Projects have their own cycles, and you cannot expect all to behave like English Wikipedia by default. 
:But there's obviously some personal vendettas going on here that are beyond my knowledge (not that I'm too interested in learning them, either) and that of the rest of Wikinews projects which have been bundled up with the English one, to my mind the true target. The "proposal for a proposal" for closure has not been successful. More editors are needed, and I'm sure the communties can think of ways to make this happen -indeed, such a discussion is already happening on Spanish Wikinews. And that's the way to go -with the communities, not against them. [[User:Raystorm|Raystorm]] ([[User talk:Raystorm|talk]]) 14:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

====Purpose matters====
I oppose the proposed closing of WN for many reasons, but consider the real world purpose on the news capacity. Sure, WN is not robust as many would desire. However, light use also means lighter strain on resources too. That disqualifies one third of the justification to close WN, as it is not a resource hog. As the marketplace provides decent news sources, then WN is but a sidebar or safety net. Frankly, society should have the luxury of a news safety net and its use should be sporadic. But do not remove the WN as one would not wish to remove the net to high flying acrobats. Finally, a single WN journalist, or a few WN reporters can change the face of history. The right person at the right time with the right story can prevent a war, take down a President, turn the tide of suffering in epic ways. Volume and magnitude and NPOV are necessary in the Wikipedia project and fully unrequired in WN. Greatness in WN can come from a lone voice. To judge news with the same scales (pun) as Wikipedia goes counter to the real world purpose of news. Long live WN, even as a thin but watchful cousin to the others. [[User:Rauterkus|Rauterkus]] ([[User talk:Rauterkus|talk]]) 13:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

===Example of failed model: internationally significant stories mixed with stealing toilet parts, postman killed in collision===
[[File:Lake Ginninderra Easter 2013 5.JPG|thumb|Linked to from the WN main page today: "Canberrans celebrating Easter"]]I looked at the main page of en.WP yesterday. There I found pieces of international significance (all, BTW, with over-long titles in a front-page headline context)—''Soyuz TMA-08M launches to International Space Station<s>, arrives in record time</s>'' and ''Nelson Mandela hospitalised again <s>with lung infection recurrence</s>''. However, these were intermingled with ''Brookfield, Wisconsin man charged with stealing toilet and urinal parts'' and ''Outer Hebrides collision kills postman'' (only rumoured to be a postman, we learn by clicking for more—but why let that interfere with a good headline?).

Is this a joke? Who is exercising thematic editorial control over what goes on the front page? It seems that the utterly trivial (and the local) are mixed with the significant and international. What kind of readership is the main page aiming at? Why are stories you might find in a cheap local rag on the front page? Really, who cares about the theft of urinal parts or the fact that a person died in a motor-vehicle collision on some island off Scotland? What an embarrassment.

Today I see a local magazine-type story about how the sun came out yesterday afternoon in Australia's national captial, and "a number of Canberrans" spent the day outdoors. Proudly labelled in red caps "ORIGINAL", this was positioned alongside a highly significant international story—again the headline too long, and misleading to boot: ''United States economy growth revised up to 0.4% in last quarter of 2012'' (try ''US growth 0.4%''—and it's not that the 0.1% estimate was "revised" up to a 0.4% estimate: apparently the economy ''actually'' grew at 0.4%).

Let's move from the thematic chaos to examine the quality of the US growth story. The mistake concerning successive estimates is reinforced in the story text: "the increased estimate". The story itself is so short it's almost not worth reading; and it lacks the larger context conveyed by the sourced BBC News Online story—"US economy ''ekes out'' 0.4% growth ..." (my italics). Fact is, 0.4% is pretty bad given all of the circumstances. I suggest that 2/3 of a page rather than six sentences would be more fitting for a complex main-page feature. And while we're being picky, "the" is missing from the second sentence (and you could probably drop "previously"). A comma after "2012" would be useful, although not mandatory. "Per the report" is not stylish, and isn't the first paragraph "per the report" too? "Hike in taxes" I regard as falling into GOP "tax is robbery" spin – the neutral form is "tax rises". I query why "defense" and "government" spending are different—is this more GOP spin, of the type that holds that military spending is just ticketyboo, but government spending on the health system is socialised medicine? And the amateur economist in me is slightly concerned about the presumption—made in the sources, I suppose—that the "loss in output" is entirely due to these cuts in spending. Methinks it's multi-factorial.

And remember, the Subway eatery was open in Canberra yesterday, "and had a number of customers". Front page, hello? [[User:Tony1|'''Tony''']] [[User talk:Tony1|(talk)]] 03:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

: Thanks keeping up the good fight Tony1! It's appreciated, I assure you. - [[User:Amgine|Amgine]]/[[User talk:Amgine|meta]] [[wiktionary:User talk:Amgine|wikt]] [[n:User talk:Amgine|wnews]] [http://vanislecirc.wordpress.org blog] [http://standingoffandon.blogspot.com/ wmf-blog] [http://news.google.ca/ goog news] 04:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

User talk:JamesA

2013-03-28T13:31:43Z

JamesA: /* Synchbot request */ +re

{{User:JamesA/Navbar|tab2}}
{{User:JamesA/Box}}

<div class="borderc6 backgroundc2" style="border-style:solid;border-width:medium;padding:0.3em 0.5em;color:lightgrey">
<div align="center">{{Welcome/lang}}</div>
== Welcome to Meta! ==

<div class="lang-en" lang="en" style="color:black">
Hello, {{PAGENAME}}. Welcome to the '''Wikimedia [[Meta:About Meta|Meta-Wiki]]'''! This website is for coordinating and discussing all [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedia projects]]. You may find it useful to read our [[Meta:Policy|policy page]]. If you are interested in doing translations, visit [[Meta:Babylon]]. You can also leave a note on [[Meta:Babel]] or [[Wikimedia Forum]] (please read the instructions at the top of the page before posting there). Happy editing!
</div>
</div>
* [[User:Trijnstel|Trijnstel]][[User talk:Trijnstel|talk]] 15:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Travel Guide: Naming poll open ==
Hi there,

You are receiving this message because you edited the initial naming straw poll for the Wikimedia Travel Guide.

The proposed naming poll is now open and you can vote for as many of the proposed names as you wish, if you are eligible. Please see [[Travel Guide/Naming Process]] for full details on voting eligibility and how the final name will be selected. Voting will last for 14 days, and will terminate on 16 October at 06:59:59 UTC.

Thanks, [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 23:07, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Travel Guide: Naming poll open ==
Hi there,

You are receiving this message because you voiced your opinion at the [[Requests for comment/Travel Guide|Request for Comment]] on the Wikimedia Travel Guide.

The proposed naming poll opened a few days ago and you can vote for as many of the proposed names as you wish, if you are eligible. Please see [[Travel Guide/Naming Process]] for full details on voting eligibility and how the final name will be selected. Voting will last for 14 days, and will terminate on 16 October at 06:59:59 UTC.

Thanks, [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 21:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

== claiming/verifying domains for Alexa, etc. ==

Hi James,

I saw your request for help verifying a site at Alexa, etc. (e.g. following [http://www.alexa.com/faqs/?cat=201]) in #wikimedia-tech today.

Was there a particular rationale / reason that you needed to do that? (to edit metadata at Alexa? why do we need to do that?) Thanks. --[[User:Jeremyb|Jeremyb]] ([[User talk:Jeremyb|talk]]) 04:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

==[[User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Synchbot|Synchbot]] request==
Hello JamesA. I just finished handling your request for global user pages, and [[User:Pathoschild/Scripts/Synchbot/Archives/JamesA|archived the request & bot log]]. :) —[[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 21:06, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

:Thanks! :) I don't actually remember asking for this, but that doesn't matter; I must need to get my head checked! [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 13:31, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Our projects

2013-03-13T04:08:53Z

JamesA: /* Wikivoyage */ Full list of languages

{{Project navigation|pageCommons=Spotlight_on_Wikimedia_Commons}}
{{ProjectsLang}}
All major projects of the [[About Wikimedia|Wikimedia Foundation]] are collaboratively developed by its users using the [[#MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] software. All contributions are licensed under the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0] (except Wikinews, which is licensed under [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ Creative Commons Attribution 2.5]), meaning that their content may be freely used, freely edited, freely copied and freely redistributed subject to the restrictions of that license. See also our [[Special:SiteMatrix|link to all projects]].

'''Please note that while other sites may also use [[MediaWiki]] software and therefore look similar to our projects, or may have a name that includes 'Wiki-' or '-pedia', or a similar domain name, the only projects which are part of the Wikimedia Foundation are those listed below.'''

== Wikipedia ==
{{logo|Wikipedia}}
Wikipedia is a project to build free encyclopedias in all languages of the world. Virtually anyone with Internet access is free to contribute by contributing neutral, cited information.

Wikipedia started in January 2001, and currently offers more than ten million articles written in 273 languages. The largest Wikipedia is in English, with more than three million articles; it is followed by the German, French, Italian, Polish, Spanish, Japanese, Russian, Dutch, and Portuguese editions, each of which contain more than half a million articles. Over twenty-five other language editions contain 100,000+ articles, and more than 150 other languages contain 1,000+ articles.

Wikipedia is also known for its community. In 2004 Wikipedia won the Webby Award for "Community" and the Prix Ars Electronica's Golden Nica for "Digital Communities". Since the start of the project, over 650,000 registered users have made at least ten edits to Wikipedia. The total number of accounts created on the English Wikipedia alone exceeds 10 million. However, most edits on that language's edition come from a few thousand of its most dedicated users.

Some Wikipedias release or plan to release regular snapshots. The German Wikipedia is released twice a year as a DVD, in collaboration with Directmedia Publishing, and the Polish Wikipedia has released one DVD of content.

* [//www.wikipedia.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:List of Wikipedias|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wiktionary ==
{{logo|Wiktionary}}
Wiktionary is a project to create a multilingual free content dictionary in every language. This means each project seeks to use a particular language to define all words in ''all'' languages. It actually aims to be much more extensive than a typical dictionary, including thesauri, rhymes, translations, audio pronunciations, etymologies, and quotations. The project started in December 2002, and as of October 2010 is available in over 150 languages with over 3,000,000 entries in all. The largest language edition is English, followed by French, Lithuanian and Chinese. All four of them have more than 300,000 entries each, while 19 languages in total have more than 100,000 entries each. 67 other languages have at least 1,000 entries.

Wiktionary works in collaboration with the Wikimedia Commons. Many sound files have been uploaded to Commons to provide Wiktionary and other projects with examples of pronunciation.

* [//www.wiktionary.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wiktionary|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikiquote ==
{{logo|Wikiquote}}
Wikiquote is a repository of quotations taken from famous people, books, speeches, films or any intellectually interesting materials. Proverbs, mnemonics or slogans are also included in Wikiquote. The project started in July 2003.

* [//www.wikiquote.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikiquote|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikibooks ==
{{logo|Wikibooks}}
Wikibooks aims to build a collection of free e-book resources, including textbooks, language courses, manuals, and annotated public domain books. It aims to help both (self-)instruction of students and teachers in high schools and universities.

As of October 2010, the largest Wikibooks is in the English language, with over 35,000 modules from over 2,500 developing books. The German and French follow, each has over 9,000 modules. The project started in July 2003 and now has over 139,000 modules from over 5,000 developing books, across over 100 languages.

* [//www.wikibooks.org/ Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikibooks|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikisource ==
{{logo|Wikisource}}
Wikisource is a multilingual project, started in November 2003, to archive a collection of free and open content texts. It is not only a superior format for storing classics, laws, and other free works as hypertext, but it also serves as a base for translating these texts. At the beginning, source texts in all languages (except Hebrew) were all on one wiki. However, Wikisource now has several editions in many individual languages.

As of October 2010, Wikisource offers 880,000 source texts in total. The largest is the English Wikisource, with over 150,000 works. Then Russian and Chinese with each containing over 100,000 source texts.

* [//wikisource.org/ Wikisource (multilingual)]
* [[m:Wikisource|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikispecies ==
{{logo|Wikispecies}}
Wikispecies is an open, wiki-based project to provide a central, more extensive species database for taxonomy. Launched 14 September 2004, Wikispecies is aimed specifically at the needs of scientific users, and as of October 2010, has over 240,000 entries. There are plans to help Wikispecies collaborate with the [[w:Encyclopedia of Life|Encyclopedia of Life]] project when the latter is more fully underway.

* [//species.wikimedia.org/ Wikispecies]
{{clear}}

== Wikinews ==
{{logo|Wikinews}}
The Wikinews project was launched in December 2004 with the mission to report the news on a wide variety of subjects. Contributors from around the world write news articles collaboratively. Reports range from original reporting and interviews to summaries of news from external sources. All reports are required to be written from a neutral point of view.

Currently Wikinews has two aims: providing a free content alternative to commercial news sites and making sure that articles are fact-checked and reviewed thoroughly.

* [//www.wikinews.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikinews|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikiversity ==
{{logo|Wikiversity}}
Wikiversity is a project dedicated to learning materials and learning communities, as well as research. It was set up as a Wikimedia project (in "beta" phase) on 15 August 2006 with the English and German Wikiversities, as well as the multilingual coordination hub. Despite what its name may suggest, Wikiversity is not limited to university (or tertiary) level materials, but is open to materials and communities of all learner levels. The way it can facilitate learning activities and communities is still being explored, but is centered around the model of 'learning by doing', or 'experiential learning'.

As of October 2010 there are over 30,000 learning resource entries across 12 languages. The English version contains over 13,000 and both French and German have over 2,000 entries.

* [//www.wikiversity.org/ Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikiversity|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikivoyage ==
{{logo|Wikivoyage}}
Wikivoyage aims to create the world's largest free, complete and up-to-date world-wide travel guide. Wikivoyage was launched in January 2013 and is written by volunteers in the same spirit of sharing knowledge that makes travel so enjoyable. The project began in December 2006 as a German language fork of a site named Wikitravel, and joined the Wikimedia Foundation project family as a beta with 50,000 articles in seven languages. Wikivoyage is now available in nine languages.

* [//www.wikivoyage.org/ Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikivoyage|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== {{anchor|Commons}}Wikimedia Commons ==
{{logo|Wikimedia Commons}}
Wikimedia Commons was launched in September 2004 to provide a central repository for free photographs, diagrams, maps, videos, animations, music, sounds, spoken texts, and other free media. It is a multilingual project with contributors speaking dozens of languages, that serves as a central repository for all Wikimedia projects.

The project is growing rapidly. In December 2012, it reached [//blog.wikimedia.org/2012/12/10/15-million-free-media-files-on-wikimedia-commons/ fifteen million] multimedia files, having surpassed 10 million in April of the previous year. Wikimedia Commons received an honorary mention for Digital Community at the 2005 Prix Ars Electronica awards.

The project has three community-driven mechanisms for highlighting quality contributions: [[commons:Commons:Featured pictures|Featured pictures]] which acknowledge the cream of the crop, and [[commons:Commons:Quality Images|Quality images]], which recognise well-composed creations by Wikimedia editors. Since 2006 it has run a [[commons:Commons:Picture of the Year|Picture of the Year]] competition, which invites the wider Wikimedia community to share in the celebration of the inspiring free content imagery. Two pages, [[commons:Commons:Meet our photographers|Meet our photographers]] and [[commons:Commons:Meet our illustrators|Meet our illustrators]], showcase a selection of the highly skilled contributors who choose to use free content licenses and donate their work to the Wikimedia Commons.

For more information on Commons, please see [[Spotlight on Wikimedia Commons]].

* [//commons.wikimedia.org Wikimedia Commons]
{{clear}}

== {{anchor|Wikidata}}Wikidata ==
{{logo|Wikidata}}
Wikidata was launched in October 2012 and aims to create a free knowledge base about the world that can be read and edited by humans and machines alike. It will provide data in all the languages of the Wikimedia projects, and allow for the central access to data in a similar vein as Wikimedia Commons does for multimedia files. Wikidata is a new Wikimedia hosted and maintained project.

* [//www.wikidata.org Wikidata]
{{clear}}

== MediaWiki ==
{{logo|MediaWiki}}
The MediaWiki open source community maintains several software projects. The [[mw:Manual:What is MediaWiki?|MediaWiki engine]] is used by all Wikimedia projects and [[mw:Sites using MediaWiki|many other sites]]. Its core functionality is being expanded through [[mw:Manual:Extensions|extensions]], [[mw:Gadget kitchen|customizations]], and [[mw:Mobile|mobile applications]]. Developers can use the MediaWiki [[mw:API:Main page|API]] to build applications interacting with sites like Wikipedia. MediaWiki [[mw:How to contribute|welcomes]] technical volunteers for development, testing, system administration, documentation, design, and promotion.

* [//www.mediawiki.org MediaWiki]
{{clear}}

[[Category:About Wikimedia]]
[[Category:English]]

User talk:Chaojoker

2013-03-13T04:04:03Z

JamesA: /* Wikivoyage at List of Wikimedia projects by size */ new section

[[hy:q:Մասնակցի քննարկում:Chaojoker]]

==Translator, We need you!==
Dear Chaojoker,

You have helped us in previous years with translations and for that we are most grateful. Now we turn towards the 2011/12 fundraiser. It may seem forever away, but work has already begun getting everything ready to go. This year we want to have landing pages covering as many countries in as many languages as possible.

Right now, we want to figure out who is interested in translating for the fundraiser. This year we're hoping to have more of a solidified "core" group of translators that we can count on to have work done by a few key dates, but we'd also welcome help from people who are willing to just help out when they can.

If you would be interested please take a look at this little sign-up survey and fill it out [http://survey.wikimedia.org/index.php?sid=13638&newtest=Y&lang=en http://survey.wikimedia.org/index.php?sid=13638&newtest=Y&lang=en]. With that we can start building a list of people and filling any gaps in the languages we serve.

Many Thanks

Joseph Seddon ([[User:Jseddon (WMF)]]) 
 
'''Production Coordinator''' 
''Wikimedia Foundation'' 
[[User:Jseddon (WMF)|Jseddon (WMF)]] 01:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

== Thank you for your help with board election translations ==

[[File:Rosetta Barnstar Hires.png|thumb|For your help with board election translations.]]
Hi! As member of this year's board election committe I would like to give you this barnstar for your help with the translations of the board election pages into Armenian. It was very much appreciated! [[User:Jon Harald Søby|Jon Harald Søby]] 13:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
:Thank you, Jon. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] 06:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

== A barnstar for you! ==

[[File:Rosetta Barnstar Hires.png|right|frameless|This barnstar is given to you for your help with the 2011 fundraiser translation.]]
Hi! I just want to thank you and give you this barnstar for your help with the translation of the 2011 fundraiser! The fundraiser was the best we ever had, both in terms of the [[wmf:Special:FundraiserStatistics|amount we collected]] and in terms of number of translations. We couldn't have done either one without the help we got from you and other translators. If you are interested, we made a [[Fundraising 2011/Translation/Project report|report]], which has some statistics about the translations.

And: I have one more request, and that is that you take '''[https://wikimedia.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_1IkYXQnoESa2BmY this survey]'''. You may have got an e-mail about it, and if you did, please ignore this. But if you didn't it would be great if you would take this survey too, so we can learn to improve the translation experience.

Again, thanks for your help with translations – you're awesome! [[User:Jsoby|Jon Harald Søby (WMF)]] 13:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

:Tusen takk, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] 19:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

== stats update bot ==

Hi, i have noticed your bot updates [[Wiktionary/Table]]. Does it fetch the source from s23.org and then applies a few changes before pasting here or how does it work? I am the one running the stats updates on s23 but i have moved this to WMF labs meanwhile and refactored the code and put it (mostly) in wmf git/gerrit. I have just updated the page manually from this [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/displayw.php?t=wt new source] and will eventually shut down the stats on s23. I have adjusted the number format in the grand total table to also add , as thousands separator as you did. Cheers, [[User:Mutante|Mutante]] ([[User talk:Mutante|talk]]) 17:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
:Hi Mutante, yes, it used to fetch the data from s23.org using some Ruby scripts based on [https://github.com/iCEAGE/wikimedia_scripts these] written by [[User:ICEAGE|ICEAGE]]. I've modified the scripts a bit, so that now they fetch the data from wikistats.wmflabs.org. However, the [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/displayw.php?t=mw Wikimedia projects] page is not working yet, so for that one I'm still using data from s23.org until it's fixed. Thank you for fixing the two Wikibooks bugs, as well the number format. Best regards, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 19:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
:One more thing: the [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/wikipedias_wiki.php Wikipedias] page is missing the Grand Total section in the new source. Would be nice to have it back. Cheers, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 20:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

== Bot blocked ==

Your {{user|ՋոկերԲոտ}} has been blocked because it was malfunctioning with MySQL errors. I suggest that in the future that you create an error handler so we don't have to block your bot in the future.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]) 22:47, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
:That is actually not a bot error, it's a source error, as the new source, http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/ is not functioning at the moment. Thank you for catching it though. I'll try to see if I can come up with a way to handle similar situations. Please feel free to unblock it now. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 22:55, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
::Done! --[[User:Vituzzu|Vituzzu]] ([[User talk:Vituzzu|talk]]) 23:01, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

== Updating List of Wikipedias/Table ==

Hi Chaojoker, the source You use to update [[List of Wikipedias/Table]] isn't correct. In fact, the Wikipedia NSO now has [http://nso.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letlakala_la_pele 573 pages] and the VEP [http://vep.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A4lehtpol%E2%80%99 2062 pages] instead of zero (see [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Wikipedias/Table&oldid=4182616 your last update]). 
Why don't You use [http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_wiki.php this source] updated twice a day? Now I have updated correctly the Table. --[[User:Antonio1952|Antonio1952]] ([[User talk:Antonio1952|talk]]) 19:45, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
:Hi Antonio, both the [http://s23.org/wikistats/ s23] and [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/ WMF labs] sources are maintained by [[User:Mutante|Mutante]]. ՋոկերԲոտ used to update them from the s23 source, but since then it has been updated [[User talk:Chaojoker#stats update bot|per two discussions above]], as s23 is eventually going to be shut down and the WMF source is the newer source. Any problem with the WMF labs source (such as it updating after the s23 source or wrong stats of some wikis) would be more effective to discuss with Mutante. Cheers, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 22:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
::Hi Chaojoker, I have point out the two mistakes to Mutante; he has corrected them. 
::Another question: as the source is update twice a day (about at 00:00 and 12:00), in my opinion, the time showed in "Statistics at …" must be 00:00 if your bot updates in the morning and 12:00 if your bot updates after midday. --[[User:Antonio1952|Antonio1952]] ([[User talk:Antonio1952|talk]]) 19:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
:::Done. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 17:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

== Page ==

Hi. I moved your new page to [[User:Chaojoker/test]]. It ended up in the main area. -- [[User:Tegel|Tegel]] ([[User Talk:Tegel|Talk]]) 16:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hey, sorry. Thanks :) [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 16:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

== Bot not approved? ==

Hello. I couldn't find any links that suggested [[User:ՋոկերԲոտ]] is approved to run as bot here (please correct me if I am wrong). While the bot does not seem to be messing, the bot should be formally approved and probably a botflag be set. Please see [[Meta:Requests for adminship]] for instructions. Regards. -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 18:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hi, MarcoAurelio. You are correct, I hadn't applied for bot flag before. I just started a request: [[Meta:Requests for bot status/ՋոկերԲոտ]]. Thank you, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 21:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

== Bot edits visible on Special:RecentChanges in spite of botflag being granted ==

Hello Chaojoker. Congrats for getting your bot approved and flagged. However it seems there's a problem in the bot's code as it's edits are visible on recentchanges in spite of having the botflag. Something in the botcode is making that the edits be tagged as "non bot" edits thus being still visible on that page (probably) or other issues are causing this. Could you please fix that? Thanks for your service. Regards. -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 19:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hi, MarcoAurelio. Thank you for your suggestion and support. The issue had to do with passing the bot flag in the Ruby framework that I'm using, and is currently fixed. My gratitude is extended to [[en:User_talk:Jpatokal#MediaWiki::Gateway_question|Jpatokal]] and [[User:Xelgen|Xelgen]] with whom I consulted about this. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 17:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

== Grand total removed? ==

Hello, Chaojoker. I noticed that your bot updates [[List of Wikipedias]], but it does not add the very useful "Grand total" section. Is this something that you can fix? --[[User:OsamaK|OsamaK]] ([[User talk:OsamaK|talk]]) 09:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hi, OsamaK. The bot is taking the stats from [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/wikipedias_wiki.php this source], which doesn't contain the grand total. The [http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_wiki.php old source], which included the grand total, is going to retire. I could try to include the grand total using the bot; however, I think it would be more straightforward to do it at the source. I've already [[User_talk:Chaojoker#stats_update_bot|mentioned this]] to the user who maintains both sources, so I'm hoping it'll be sorted out at some point. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 17:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Armenia ==

:Խնդրում եմ Wikimedia Armenia էջը վերականգնիր այնպես ինչպես կար, քանի որ դա ընդունված ձն է, որում կոմիտեի անդամները հարցեր և խորհուրդներ են տալիս: Հասարակական կազմակերպությունը հիմնելուց հետո, կարող ես փոխել ինպես ցանկանաս:
[[User:SusikMkr|SusikMkr]] ([[User talk:SusikMkr|talk]]) 20:05, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Ողջույն Սուսաննա և Քաոջոքեր։ Անկեղծ ասած, կարծում եմ լավ կլիներ նախապես քննարկել, թե արդո՞ք արժի երկու էջերը միացնել․ որպեսզի արդյունքը լինի բոլորի կողմից ընդունելի։ Վերջիվերջո այդ երկու էջերը համագործակցության հարթակներ են և պետք է այնպես անել, որ բոլորին հարմար լինի այնտեղ աշխատել։

Կոնկրետ ինձ ավելի հարմար է թվում, որ երկու էջերը մնան առաձին, ինչպես կան։ Դա այն պատճառով, որ այդ երկուսը որոշակիորեն տարբեր նպատակներ ունեն․ եթե նպատակները լրիվ նույնական են, ապա այդ դեպքում անշուշտ արժի ունենալ մեկ էջ երկու լեզվով։ Սակայն այս դեպքում, ինչպես Սուսաննան է նշում, անգլերեն էջը նպատակ ունի կամ պահպանել Վիքիմեդիա Հիմնադրամի խորհուրդի հետ․ քննարկել հարցեր կապված ֆինանսակայն հաշվետվությունների և Վիքիմեդիա Հայաստանի ստեղծման իրավաբանական խնդիրների հետ։ Իսկ հայերենը ՝ արդեն հայալեզու հանրությանը - ներկայացնել Վիքիմեդիա Հայաստանի ստեղծման նպատակները, ծրագրերը և դրանցում մասնակցություն ունենալու վերաբերյալ տեղեկություններ։ --[[User:Vacio|'''va''']][[Special:Contributions/Vacio|'''c''']][[User_talk:Vacio|'''io''']] 10:25, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Ողջույն կրկին։ Ես Վիքիմեդիա Հայաստան էջը նորից երկուսը դարձրեցի, մինչև կորոշենք, թե ինչպես է հարմար աշխատել․ ավելի շատ Սուսաննայի խնդրանքով։ Իսկ կանոնադրությունը թողեցի երկլեզու էջ․ այդպես հարմար ավելի համարմար է։--[[User:Vacio|'''va''']][[Special:Contributions/Vacio|'''c''']][[User_talk:Vacio|'''io''']] 12:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
:«Որոշումն» ակներևորեն արդեն կատարված է։ Էջերի վերևում խնդրեմ պարզ նշեք, որ ապագայում առանց ձեր իրավունքի ոչ ոք փոփոխություն չկատարի։ [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 17:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

== Egyptian Arabic ==

Please notice that there is a fault in the transliteration of the name of Egyptian Arabic in the list of Wikipedias. [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Wikipedias%2FTable&diff=4352968&oldid=4347550 Your bot update reverted] a correction [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Wikipedias/Table&diff=prev&oldid=4347550 I made] in the last vowel in the name '''''maṣri''''' back to '''''maṣrī''''' (<code>''<nowiki>Ma&#7779;ri</nowiki>''</code>  to  <code>''<nowiki>Ma&#7779;r&#299;</nowiki></code>''). Please take care and update this in your bot. In Egyptian Arabic, the last vowel in this word is short in an unstressed syllable. The Egyptian Arabic phonology does not accept long vowels in unstressed syllables. --[[User:Mahmudmasri|Mahmudmasri]] ([[User talk:Mahmudmasri|talk]]) 03:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:Hi Mahmudmasri, the bot copies the contents from [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/wikipedias_wiki.php this source], which in turn is maintained by [[User:Mutante|Mutante]], so your best bet would be to contact Mutante to fix the source. Regards, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 07:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:Btw, a question just came to mind: do you use Latin alphabet to write Arabic in Egypt, or just Arabic script is used? Because if it's the latter, then just مصرى as the local name of the language should suffice. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 18:18, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

== List of largest wikis/Table ==
Hello,
Can your bot harvest the first 200 entries of http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/largest_wiki.php?th=0&lines=200 for [[List of largest wikis/Table]]? Thank you.
[[User:RobiH|RobiH]] ([[User talk:RobiH|talk]]) 13:50, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

:Hi RobiH, sure, it's possible. I noticed that the [[List of largest wikis/Table|table]] has three additional columns (Stub ratio, version and ID) compared to the [http://wikistats.wmflabs.org/largest_wiki.php?th=0&lines=200 source]. Where those manually added or is there another source with the additional columns? Thanks, [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 18:43, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

:: These three colums came in when the WIKI version was fxxxed up and I tried to convert and wikify the HTML version on 2012-12-01. You can drop these three columns again. [[User:RobiH|RobiH]] ([[User talk:RobiH|talk]]) 00:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

When are you going to get around to have had your harvesting bot set up for harvesting this table? [[User:RobiH|RobiH]] ([[User talk:RobiH|talk]]) 13:32, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

== Please update [[Wikisource/Table]] ==

Chaojoker, could you please add mr.wikisource to that table? I can do this manually like I have done for as.wikisource, but I am not sure this is fine.--[[User:Erasmo Barresi|Erasmo Barresi]] ([[User talk:Erasmo Barresi|talk]]) 18:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
:Please contact [[User:Mutante|Mutante]] to fix it at the source website. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 16:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

== List of Wikipedias/Table ==

Please, delete latin form in the name of Lezgi language/Wikipedia.--[[User:Soul Train|Soul Train]] ([[User talk:Soul Train|talk]]) 07:16, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
:Please contact [[User:Mutante|Mutante]] to fix it at the source website. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 16:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

=== Minangkabau Wikipedia ===

I've left [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mutante&diff=5287286&oldid=5257643 a message] to Mutante, but I'm crossposting it here for future watchers. [[Talk:List of Wikipedias#Minangkabau Wikipedia]]. Thanks. [[User talk:Bennylin|✒]] [[User:Bennylin|Bennylin]] 14:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
:Where's Minangkabau list? I hope it will list in [[List of Wikipedias|List of Wikipedias]]--[[User:Aplikasi|Aplikasi]] ([[User talk:Aplikasi|talk]]) 03:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

== Project lists in Armenian ==

Hi! Project lists in Armenian are renamed into standartized names.
Please reconfigure your bot for update new pages, no redirects:
* [[Վիքիքաղվածք/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wikiquote/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիբառարան/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wiktionary/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիլսարան/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wikiversity/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիդարան/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wikisource/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիմեդիայի նախագծերի ցանկն ըստ չափսի/Աղյուսակ]] > [[List of Wikimedia projects by size/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիլուրեր/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wikinews/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիգրքեր/Աղյուսակ]] > [[Wikibooks/Table/hy]]
* [[Վիքիպեդիաների ցանկ/Աղյուսակ]] > [[List of Wikipedias/Table/hy]]
--[[User:Kaganer|Kaganer]] ([[User talk:Kaganer|talk]]) 20:35, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
:Hi Kaganer, is there any concensus on Meta regarding English naming of all pages? For example, Wikiquote pages for [[Викицитатник|Russian]], [[Wikicitáty|Czech]], [[विकिउद्धरण|Hindi]] and [[ویکی‌گفتاورد|Farsi]] are in their respective languages, as well as numerous other pages on Meta. I don't see why the Armenian one cannot be in its own language as well. [[User:Chaojoker|Chaojoker]] ([[User talk:Chaojoker|talk]]) 04:54, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
:: This starting only, step by step ;) There is no language preference (personally, I am respectful and friendly to the Armenians and the Armenian language), just started long-overdue process of harmonization with targeting migration to using [[Meta:Translate extension|Translation Extension]]. This will be appled for serious translatable pages (those pages that should be identical/synchronous in all languages). This translation system required standartized pagenames with using subpages for translations (named as language codes). ''Diplayed'' title will be kept localized, by the way. --[[User:Kaganer|Kaganer]] ([[User talk:Kaganer|talk]]) 09:54, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
:: I started from the unification of the [[template:Project lists]] and all pages what linked to. --[[User:Kaganer|Kaganer]] ([[User talk:Kaganer|talk]]) 09:45, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
::: By the way, please add translation of the name "Wikidata" to [[template:Project lists/hy]] and [[Template:Main Page/Sisterprojects/hy]] (with short description there). --[[User:Kaganer|Kaganer]] ([[User talk:Kaganer|talk]]) 09:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Please make one fix in the settings of your bot: [[Վիքիմեդիայի նախագծերի ցանկն ըստ չափսի/Աղյուսակ]] are redirected to [[List_of_Wikimedia_projects_by_size/Table/hy]]. please update [[List_of_Wikimedia_projects_by_size/Table/hy]] instead of [[Վիքիմեդիայի նախագծերի ցանկն ըստ չափսի/Աղյուսակ]]. Thanks! --[[User:Kaganer|Kaganer]] ([[User talk:Kaganer|talk]]) 16:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

== Wikivoyage at [[List of Wikimedia projects by size]] ==

Hi Chaojoker. I tried adding [[Wikivoyage]] to the aforementioned page, but realised it is highly technical and that your bot handles updating. Is it possible that your bot could monitor Wikivoyages as well, of which there are currently 11? I also tried adding to the 'key' in the top-right corner, but that didn't seem to work either. Thanks in advance. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 04:04, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Template:Active projects

2013-03-13T03:53:55Z

JamesA: +wikivoyage with 11 projects/11 active

{| align="right" style="margin: 10px;" class="wikitable"
|-
! colspan="4"|Legend
|-
! color
! family
! projects
! [[Which projects are active?|active]]
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:#ffffff"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikipedia|{{{1}}}}}||285||275
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:#ff8080"|
|{{Project name translation link Wiktionary|{{{1}}}}}||171||140
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:purple"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikibooks|{{{1}}}}}||121||62
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:blue"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikiquote|{{{1}}}}}||88||55
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:#ffcc11"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikisource|{{{1}}}}}||63||59
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:green"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikinews|{{{1}}}}}||33||33
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:#a66"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikiversity|{{{1}}}}}||15||15
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:#1B4157"|
|{{Project name translation link Wikivoyage|{{{1}}}}}||11||11
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:red"|
|Special||79||33
|-
| style="color:black;background-color:white"|
|Total||854||672
|}
<noinclude>[[Category:Active Wikimedia project templates]]</noinclude>

Template:Project name translation Wikivoyage

2013-03-13T03:49:08Z

JamesA: Created page with "<noinclude>This template gives a name of Wikivoyage in chosen language. en: {{Project name translation Wikivoyage|en}} {{PAGENAME}} </noinclude>{..."

<noinclude>This template gives a name of Wikivoyage in chosen language.

en: {{Project name translation Wikivoyage|en}} 

[[Category:Transbabel|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</noinclude>{{switch
|{{{1}}}
|case: en=Wikivoyage
}}

Template:Project name translation link Wikivoyage

2013-03-13T03:48:04Z

JamesA: Created page with "<noinclude>This template gives a name of Wikivoyage with link in chosen language. en: {{Project name translation link Wikivoyage|en}} [[Category:Transbabel|{{PAGENAME}}]..."

<noinclude>This template gives a name of Wikivoyage with link in chosen language.

en: {{Project name translation link Wikivoyage|en}} 

[[Category:Transbabel|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</noinclude>{{switch
|{{{1}}
|case: en=[[{{Project name translation Wikivoyage|en}}]]
}}

Our projects

2013-03-13T03:40:27Z

JamesA: /* Wikivoyage */ formatting

{{Project navigation|pageCommons=Spotlight_on_Wikimedia_Commons}}
{{ProjectsLang}}
All major projects of the [[About Wikimedia|Wikimedia Foundation]] are collaboratively developed by its users using the [[#MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] software. All contributions are licensed under the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0] (except Wikinews, which is licensed under [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/ Creative Commons Attribution 2.5]), meaning that their content may be freely used, freely edited, freely copied and freely redistributed subject to the restrictions of that license. See also our [[Special:SiteMatrix|link to all projects]].

'''Please note that while other sites may also use [[MediaWiki]] software and therefore look similar to our projects, or may have a name that includes 'Wiki-' or '-pedia', or a similar domain name, the only projects which are part of the Wikimedia Foundation are those listed below.'''

== Wikipedia ==
{{logo|Wikipedia}}
Wikipedia is a project to build free encyclopedias in all languages of the world. Virtually anyone with Internet access is free to contribute by contributing neutral, cited information.

Wikipedia started in January 2001, and currently offers more than ten million articles written in 273 languages. The largest Wikipedia is in English, with more than three million articles; it is followed by the German, French, Italian, Polish, Spanish, Japanese, Russian, Dutch, and Portuguese editions, each of which contain more than half a million articles. Over twenty-five other language editions contain 100,000+ articles, and more than 150 other languages contain 1,000+ articles.

Wikipedia is also known for its community. In 2004 Wikipedia won the Webby Award for "Community" and the Prix Ars Electronica's Golden Nica for "Digital Communities". Since the start of the project, over 650,000 registered users have made at least ten edits to Wikipedia. The total number of accounts created on the English Wikipedia alone exceeds 10 million. However, most edits on that language's edition come from a few thousand of its most dedicated users.

Some Wikipedias release or plan to release regular snapshots. The German Wikipedia is released twice a year as a DVD, in collaboration with Directmedia Publishing, and the Polish Wikipedia has released one DVD of content.

* [//www.wikipedia.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:List of Wikipedias|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wiktionary ==
{{logo|Wiktionary}}
Wiktionary is a project to create a multilingual free content dictionary in every language. This means each project seeks to use a particular language to define all words in ''all'' languages. It actually aims to be much more extensive than a typical dictionary, including thesauri, rhymes, translations, audio pronunciations, etymologies, and quotations. The project started in December 2002, and as of October 2010 is available in over 150 languages with over 3,000,000 entries in all. The largest language edition is English, followed by French, Lithuanian and Chinese. All four of them have more than 300,000 entries each, while 19 languages in total have more than 100,000 entries each. 67 other languages have at least 1,000 entries.

Wiktionary works in collaboration with the Wikimedia Commons. Many sound files have been uploaded to Commons to provide Wiktionary and other projects with examples of pronunciation.

* [//www.wiktionary.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wiktionary|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikiquote ==
{{logo|Wikiquote}}
Wikiquote is a repository of quotations taken from famous people, books, speeches, films or any intellectually interesting materials. Proverbs, mnemonics or slogans are also included in Wikiquote. The project started in July 2003.

* [//www.wikiquote.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikiquote|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikibooks ==
{{logo|Wikibooks}}
Wikibooks aims to build a collection of free e-book resources, including textbooks, language courses, manuals, and annotated public domain books. It aims to help both (self-)instruction of students and teachers in high schools and universities.

As of October 2010, the largest Wikibooks is in the English language, with over 35,000 modules from over 2,500 developing books. The German and French follow, each has over 9,000 modules. The project started in July 2003 and now has over 139,000 modules from over 5,000 developing books, across over 100 languages.

* [//www.wikibooks.org/ Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikibooks|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikisource ==
{{logo|Wikisource}}
Wikisource is a multilingual project, started in November 2003, to archive a collection of free and open content texts. It is not only a superior format for storing classics, laws, and other free works as hypertext, but it also serves as a base for translating these texts. At the beginning, source texts in all languages (except Hebrew) were all on one wiki. However, Wikisource now has several editions in many individual languages.

As of October 2010, Wikisource offers 880,000 source texts in total. The largest is the English Wikisource, with over 150,000 works. Then Russian and Chinese with each containing over 100,000 source texts.

* [//wikisource.org/ Wikisource (multilingual)]
* [[m:Wikisource|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikispecies ==
{{logo|Wikispecies}}
Wikispecies is an open, wiki-based project to provide a central, more extensive species database for taxonomy. Launched 14 September 2004, Wikispecies is aimed specifically at the needs of scientific users, and as of October 2010, has over 240,000 entries. There are plans to help Wikispecies collaborate with the [[w:Encyclopedia of Life|Encyclopedia of Life]] project when the latter is more fully underway.

* [//species.wikimedia.org/ Wikispecies]
{{clear}}

== Wikinews ==
{{logo|Wikinews}}
The Wikinews project was launched in December 2004 with the mission to report the news on a wide variety of subjects. Contributors from around the world write news articles collaboratively. Reports range from original reporting and interviews to summaries of news from external sources. All reports are required to be written from a neutral point of view.

Currently Wikinews has two aims: providing a free content alternative to commercial news sites and making sure that articles are fact-checked and reviewed thoroughly.

* [//www.wikinews.org Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikinews|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikiversity ==
{{logo|Wikiversity}}
Wikiversity is a project dedicated to learning materials and learning communities, as well as research. It was set up as a Wikimedia project (in "beta" phase) on 15 August 2006 with the English and German Wikiversities, as well as the multilingual coordination hub. Despite what its name may suggest, Wikiversity is not limited to university (or tertiary) level materials, but is open to materials and communities of all learner levels. The way it can facilitate learning activities and communities is still being explored, but is centered around the model of 'learning by doing', or 'experiential learning'.

As of October 2010 there are over 30,000 learning resource entries across 12 languages. The English version contains over 13,000 and both French and German have over 2,000 entries.

* [//www.wikiversity.org/ Multilingual portal]
* [[m:Wikiversity|Full list of languages]]
{{clear}}

== Wikivoyage ==
{{logo|Wikivoyage}}
Wikivoyage aims to create the world's largest free, complete and up-to-date world-wide travel guide. Wikivoyage was launched in January 2013 and is written by volunteers in the same spirit of sharing knowledge that makes travel so enjoyable. The project began in December 2006 as a German language fork of a site named Wikitravel, and joined the Wikimedia Foundation project family as a beta with 50,000 articles in seven languages. Wikivoyage is now available in nine languages.

* [//www.wikivoyage.org/ Multilingual portal]
{{clear}}

== {{anchor|Commons}}Wikimedia Commons ==
{{logo|Wikimedia Commons}}
Wikimedia Commons was launched in September 2004 to provide a central repository for free photographs, diagrams, maps, videos, animations, music, sounds, spoken texts, and other free media. It is a multilingual project with contributors speaking dozens of languages, that serves as a central repository for all Wikimedia projects.

The project is growing rapidly. In December 2012, it reached [//blog.wikimedia.org/2012/12/10/15-million-free-media-files-on-wikimedia-commons/ fifteen million] multimedia files, having surpassed 10 million in April of the previous year. Wikimedia Commons received an honorary mention for Digital Community at the 2005 Prix Ars Electronica awards.

The project has three community-driven mechanisms for highlighting quality contributions: [[commons:Commons:Featured pictures|Featured pictures]] which acknowledge the cream of the crop, and [[commons:Commons:Quality Images|Quality images]], which recognise well-composed creations by Wikimedia editors. Since 2006 it has run a [[commons:Commons:Picture of the Year|Picture of the Year]] competition, which invites the wider Wikimedia community to share in the celebration of the inspiring free content imagery. Two pages, [[commons:Commons:Meet our photographers|Meet our photographers]] and [[commons:Commons:Meet our illustrators|Meet our illustrators]], showcase a selection of the highly skilled contributors who choose to use free content licenses and donate their work to the Wikimedia Commons.

For more information on Commons, please see [[Spotlight on Wikimedia Commons]].

* [//commons.wikimedia.org Wikimedia Commons]
{{clear}}

== {{anchor|Wikidata}}Wikidata ==
{{logo|Wikidata}}
Wikidata was launched in October 2012 and aims to create a free knowledge base about the world that can be read and edited by humans and machines alike. It will provide data in all the languages of the Wikimedia projects, and allow for the central access to data in a similar vein as Wikimedia Commons does for multimedia files. Wikidata is a new Wikimedia hosted and maintained project.

* [//www.wikidata.org Wikidata]
{{clear}}

== MediaWiki ==
{{logo|MediaWiki}}
The MediaWiki open source community maintains several software projects. The [[mw:Manual:What is MediaWiki?|MediaWiki engine]] is used by all Wikimedia projects and [[mw:Sites using MediaWiki|many other sites]]. Its core functionality is being expanded through [[mw:Manual:Extensions|extensions]], [[mw:Gadget kitchen|customizations]], and [[mw:Mobile|mobile applications]]. Developers can use the MediaWiki [[mw:API:Main page|API]] to build applications interacting with sites like Wikipedia. MediaWiki [[mw:How to contribute|welcomes]] technical volunteers for development, testing, system administration, documentation, design, and promotion.

* [//www.mediawiki.org MediaWiki]
{{clear}}

[[Category:About Wikimedia]]
[[Category:English]]

Request for an account on the Foundation wiki

2013-03-13T01:07:49Z

JamesA:

{{/header}}

{{closed|1='''Account created'''
=== {{user8|1=Invadinado}} ===
*'''Projects where I'm involved''': [[:m:w:es:|es.wikipedia]], mainly.
*'''E-mail address''': invadinado{{@}}gmail.com
*'''Reason why I need an account''': I am a sysop and bureaucrat of es.wikipedia involved in [[Wikimedia España]] chapter. I would like to help correcting and updating contents in Spanish, and in the scope of Wikimedia chapters. Thanks in advance. [[User:Invadinado|'''invadinado''']] ([[User_talk:Invadinado|TALK]] - [[:sulutil:Invadinado|SUL]]) 12:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
** Sure, done. Thanks for volunteering to help out! --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 20:04, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
}}

=== {{user8|1=subst:{{REVISIONUSER}}}} ===
*'''Projects where I'm involved''': [[voy:en:User:JamesA|en.wikivoyage]] primarily, [[w:en:User:JamesA|en.wikipedia]]
*'''E-mail address''': jamesjadams{{@}}live.com.au
*'''Reason why I need an account''': I'm an avid editor and administrator of Wikivoyage. Some of the content at the WMF wiki regarding Wikivoyage is a little bare or out-of-date, so I'd like to be able to update it as someone who's knowledgeable about the project. I also come across small errors every now and again, such as one I pointed out [[Foundation_wiki_feedback#wmf:Ways_to_Give.2Fen_.22Legacy_gift.22_link|here]] and another one I just found at [[foundation:Our_projects#Wikivoyage]]. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 01:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Talk:WikiLang

2013-02-26T10:56:03Z

JamesA: /* Rosetta Project - current implementations of pieces of this */ +cmt

== Develop a "standard variety" ==
Does this mean the wiki would essentially allow original research? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 20:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

:No, not at all! It should first of all document endangered languages. But a sprachausbau and standardisation is very important for a revitalisation. It is not all about research, it is more about help for little and endangered language communities. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 20:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
::Ok, seems fine then. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 20:46, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

== Outside help ==

I've read that one of the most active preservers of endangered languages is an American religious group called Wycliffe Translators. They are translating the Bible into as many languages as possible. They're doing it for religious reasons, but since the Bible is the most widely printed and most widely translated document in the history of the world, it is also the best [[:en:Rosetta Stone|Rosetta Stone]] for linguistic purposes.

It is possible that a group like this would be interested in supporting a project like this. You might consider asking them whether any of their linguists would like to help. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 16:34, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for the tip. But I would be careful when working together with religious groups that deal with languages. The biggest group is SIL, which is very fundamental. In history and sometimes still today those groups have destroyed many cultures by "forcing" them to believe in a christian god, that is why they translate the Bible into so many languages. But sure, on the other hand that led to many language documentations of languages that are already dead or highly endangered.
:This must not be the case with the Wycliffe Translators. But still, I'd be rather careful and would try to keep this as religion-less as possible. Religion and language endangerment are two different things that should not be mixed up. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 16:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

::Leaving aside the philosophical question of whether it is even possible to force a person to believe something, my thinking is that for the kind of work you want to do, it doesn't really matter what their motivation is. What you need are linguists and other people with access to the languages. You need people who can actually write down or post audio recordings of people saying "Hello, my name is WhatamIdoing" or "The weather is hot today. Yesterday it was cold. Tomorrow it will rain." People with internet connections have already had their cultures destroyed {{smiley|wink}} so the presence of a few religious proselytizers is unlikely to hurt them any further, and the people whose language is endangered are unlikely to be active in the project. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 17:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
:::I agree with this; additionally, translating anything to a language is not exactly detrimental for the language. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 19:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
::::As I said, I just want to be careful. I didn't say that I dislike them and don't want to work with them. But I thank you for the tip and I will contact them. ;)
::::Translations can be sometimes detrimental for a language. Espacially when people are performing sprachausbau with a language that is not even their mother tongue and impose that new variety on the community. That often leads to a abandonment of that new language. And it is shown that by prosetylising a community their culture dies within few generations and their language with it. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 21:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I would like to point to http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/ which seems related to what is proposed here. See [[Cooperation between Wikimedia and Endangered Languages Project]] for some thoughts from last year about it. --[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]] 19:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
:I know that project. But it doesn't really cover all the functions I am thinking of. Endangeredlanguages is just a database of portraits of languages. It is not a real attemp to revitalize them or to document them at a serious extent. It is just calling attention to the extinction of languages and giving some facts about languages, espacially endangered ones. That'd be also performable by Wikipedia and is to some extent already done. That is not what I am intending with my proposal. I hope I could make out the difference. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 21:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
::Note: If the Bible is deemed too [[POV]] (or as "forcing" a religion on people), then we could have them translate some other basic Rosetta Stone text sample. However, I agree with MF-W. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 21:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
:::I think you'd want to do some very simple, very basic things, like greetings, numbers, colors, and so forth, for every language. What else you did might vary by culture. You might do African fables for African languages, and Asian fairy tales for Asian ones. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:28, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

==no==

Point by point.

*Language revitalisation is outside the WMF's remit. Our interest is in spreading knowledge not actively maintaining barriers to its spread.
*Sprachausbau. We sort of try this with the latin wikipedia. Its proven messy. And thats a situation where there is a fair amount of new latin works being produced.
*Language documentation. Really best left to specialists working in a conventional manner.
*Decipherment of dead languages and/or undeciphered scripts. [[:en:Undeciphered writing systems|There aren't actually that many of these]] and they are already the target of a significant amount of expertise. It is extremely unlikely we would be able to help.
*Why this way? the reality is that most endangered languages are in communities that don't have internet access which makes using wikis kinda impractical.

In conclusion language preservation is best left to the professionals.[[User:Geni|Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 01:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
:Re "Our interest is in spreading knowledge not actively maintaining barriers to its spread". How are these languages barriers to the spread of knowledge? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 01:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
::Because translation comes at a non zero cost. By attempting to maintain non majority language speaking communities we make it harder to spread information to them.[[User:Geni|Geni]] ([[User talk:Geni|talk]]) 02:02, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

:::>>Our interest is in spreading knowledge not actively maintaining barriers to its spread.
:::Okay, then let's close all the Wikipedia and enlarge the English one... Since when is multilinguism impedimental for a mutual understanding? By supporting minorty languages it doesn't mean to leave behind a majority language, not at all! That is really not what language revitalisation wants to do! It wants to support the bi- or trilinguism in a region where there are also minority languages. People will learn both majority and minority language, which is by the way very beneficial for children because they can learn new languages much easier and in our modern world ruled by globalisation that seems to be an obligatory skill. (And just because some small languages haven't referred about the molecular structure of H20, it doesn't mean they couldn't. Every language has the potencial to express everything. I for example write my exams and papers at the university in my minority language (Low Saxon). And just because some languages haven't reached the state as a scientific language like English or German doesn't mean they are "too boring to exist". They are still totally deserving protection!)
:::>>Language documentation. Really best left to specialists working in a conventional manner.
:::Why? Would you say that for WIkiversity, Wikispecies, Wikipedia, etc. aswell? Specialists might have a better understanding of those things. But still Wikipedia is a big success. And who says that specialists wouldn't use WikiLang aswell as it offers an ideal platform of tools for such purposes. This is exactly what linguists need for their minority communities.
:::I am studying linguistics, with the focus on endangered languages, language death, language shift and minority languages. This Wiki is what linguists are waiting since quite a time.
:::>>Decipherment of dead languages and/or undeciphered scripts. [[:en:Undeciphered writing systems|There aren't actually that many of these]] and they are already the target of a significant amount of expertise. It is extremely unlikely we would be able to help.
:::First of all, that list is not complete, some are missing. And secondly, whilst you appearently don't, I believe that there is a bigger chance for success when many people reflect it instead for a few experts. That is the idea behind Wiki! (By the way in fact, there aren't many experts working on undeciphered scripts.) Some of those scripts are in fact solveable, it just didn't happen yet. And there are plenty other scripts not listed that are already a bit deciphered but not totally and it just takes many, many people to complete it. (For example the maya-script.)
:::>>Why this way? the reality is that most endangered languages are in communities that don't have internet access which makes using wikis kinda impractical.
:::This might be right for some communities. But there is a big amount of language minorities that have internet access. And even if there aren't any mother speakers having access to internet, there are other people like linguists, ethnologists or just interested people that would like to have a possibility to document that language before it dies out. To publish a book is for some people probably a too big barrier, this wiki project makes it easier for them to publish something about an endangered language. I can imagine that there are many linguists and ethnologists that would prefer this way and would be very happy if there is something so free and specialised to preserve languages or document them. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 08:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

== Example pages ==

I'd like to see some example pages. They can be about whatever language (like Low Saxon or Gothic), as long as I can see the basic structure. Would you mind showing us an example in your userspace or in some subpage of [[WikiLang]]? Thanks. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 14:48, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

== What would a Wikilang project look like... ==

* As a Wikilang project is about languages, what language will contain the language that is being examined .. ?
* If this is about collecting source material from a Wikilang target language, it can already be done in any of the wikisources... So what more is needed ?
* When a language needs support for a font or inputmethod ... this can be arranged.
* Really my biggest concern is what is a project going to look like. Theoretical concerns like someone likes (or not) the idea (saying we) is less/not relevant at this stage.
:Thanks, [[User:GerardM|GerardM]] ([[User talk:GerardM|talk]]) 18:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
::Agreed. I'd like to see an example page, as I stated in the section above. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 00:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
::[[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Agree''', too. Show us an example, please, so that we can evaluate it more appropriately. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 08:32, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
:::Sorry, I don't have that much time at the moment. I hope I can show you some ideas within the next days. Until then, I can just refer to our [[:got:Portal:%F0%90%8D%85%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%BF%F0%90%8D%82%F0%90%8C%B3%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B1%F0%90%8D%89%F0%90%8C%BA%F0%90%8D%89%F0%90%8D%83|"Waurdabokos" project]] at the Gothic wikipedia. If you cannot read it you have an older version of unicode and you should download a gothic font then. For example Robert Pfeffer's Ulfilas or Skeirs etc. It's just in Gothic which will be changed soon. But it shows how I had such a project in mind. There is a suggestion page where anybody can post suggestions for words or other things which will be discussed and added to a list, here a dictionary list. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 13:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
::::Would we need a page like that to propose new words for ''living'' (endangered) languages with native speakers? I can see why this would be useful for dead languages (or languages being revived after a long time), but what about languages with a few thousand speakers? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 15:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::Finding new words is important in order to strengthen the language. Language revitalization begins there where a language is used in more registers and places than before. And for that words are missing. They don't just come offhandedly people have to invent them actively and for most instances a forum is missing for that where people can decide on that in a big round. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 17:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::That would require having a significant fraction of the very small number of speakers present to decide on the new words. I think that's unlikely for a website. It would work better in a face-to-face community. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 23:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
:::::::But what seems more plausible: Coming online to any time and comment things people from another place posted or to organize a big meeting every time to find new words? The problem is that without such a forum as WikiLang would offer people mostly do such a sprachausbau alone and then there are always discussion on words because one person disagrees with it and another person gives another word. And this is proceeding really unorganized. I can tell that from the sprachausbau of my mother tongue. [[User:Zylbath|Zylbath]] ([[User talk:Zylbath|talk]]) 09:58, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

== Rosetta Project - current implementations of pieces of this ==

Can you compare WikiLang to the work of these projects?
* [http://rosettaproject.org/ Rosetta Project]
* The [http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/06/endangered-languages-project-supporting.html Engangered Languages Project] (ELP) - particularly the [http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/lang/brg/guide guides] per language.

You say above that you don't think the ELP is the same as what you envision, but it's not clear to me how the two are different. The ELP guides, examples, and corpora per language could be as detailed as is available.

It would be interesting to migrate that into a wiki-friendly and more widely-editable project, and to make it something that WMF might consider hosting or more directly supporting. The Rosetta Project has talked with Wikimedians in past years about support and partnership; they might be interested in this idea. –[[User:Sj|SJ]] [[User Talk:Sj|talk]]  21:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
:Can we browse the Rosetta Project in a more organised way than just zooming in on a disk in random places? That would be interesting, but I'm not sure the Long Now Foundation would like to collaborate with Wikimedia, which uses the 4 digit format for years instead of Long Now's 5 digits... [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contribs/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 23:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
::I was thinking about these similar projects while reading this proposal. especially the Endangered Languages Project which already has a huge database, and the backing of Google. Maybe it would be worth trying to get some sort of partnership going with these organisations that will work on improving their coverage across Wikipedia and other WMF projects. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 10:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Wikimedia merchandise

2013-02-25T12:03:21Z

JamesA: /* Wikimedia project accessories lack new projects: Wikidata and Wikivoyage */ linkfix. why doesn't data: link?

{{Message| <center>Store Feedback</center>
Please let us know what you think about [http://shop.wikimedia.org/ shop.wikimedia.org]:
* What errors are you finding
* What do you think should be changed/added/removed
* If you ordered something was it how you expected it? Are there packaging changes you would like?
* Any other comments? Essentially everything can change.
* If you'd prefer feel free to email James at jalexander{{@}}wikimedia.org (or through [[Special:EmailUser/Jalexander|Special:EmailUser]])
}}
{{Archive box non-auto|[[/Archive1]]}}

== Shop Advisory Committee ==

Interested in joining the [[Wikimedia_merchandise#Shop_Advisory_Committee|Shop Advisory Committee]] ? Sign up below:
# [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]]
# [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 03:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']] [[User_talk:Thehelpfulone| '''Helpful''']] [[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone| '''One''']] 20:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
# I'm not much at outreach or PR, but I'm great at having opinions and recommendations. [[User:Fluffernutter|Fluffernutter]] ([[User talk:Fluffernutter|talk]]) 23:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)|Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)|talk]]) 11:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
# Sign me up to counter each of Fluffernutter's "opinions and recommendations" :P just kidding ;) But i'm in. -- [[User:DeltaQuad|DQ]][[User_Talk:DeltaQuad| (ʞlɐʇ) ]] 23:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 20:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 22:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Naveenpf|naveenpf]] ([[User talk:Naveenpf|talk]]) 05:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
# If you'd ever need a volunteer to create mockups/designs for the merchandise, I'd be happy to help out. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 11:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]] 08:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]]
# [[User:Odisha1|Odisha1]]
# [[User:Varnent|Varnent]] ([[User talk:Varnent|talk]])
# '' Noah Weisling ''
# '' Greg Makano ''
# [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 23:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 11:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

== Specific questions for discussion ==

=== Google Analytics ===
I'd honestly love to get better statistics on who is visiting the shop. Given what is happening on it we have a different privacy policy but that doesn't mean we throw out our traditional norms. I'm interested in what people think about using Google Analytics to do this on the shop so that we can have a better understanding of where people are coming from. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
: Statistics are always good. Google is evil nowadays, and not to be trusted with visitor information. Why not use a freely available, open source package instead? [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: I would totally be open to one though I haven't found a good option yet :( OWA for example was taken down and isn't active at the foundation anymore (and would need some significant resources most likely). Does anyone have some ideas? [[Special:Contributions/216.38.130.164|216.38.130.164]]
::: There's lots of options out there. E.g. [http://piwik.org/ PiWik], [http://awstats.sourceforge.net/ AWstats], [http://obsessive.sourceforge.net/ OWS], and many more that a quick websearch shows up. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::: aye, the problem at the moment is that I do not have the resources to be hosting it on our servers. It may be an option in the future but isn't one yet. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::::: Um, seriously? Given all of the investment that has been put into the WMF servers (which runs into the tens of millions of dollars now), I'm really surprised to hear this. I would strongly encourage you to confirm this with the WMF tech group.
::::: If this is a serious problem, then perhaps WMUK can help here. Google Analytics basically works by downloading a webpage from a website that Google operates - there must be ways that a subsection of the WMUK server (which I currently manage) can be set up in an analogous fashion in order to provide these statistics, whilst ensuring that the data abides by the Wikimedia movement's privacy policies rather than forcing visitors to involuntarily opt in to Google's privacy policies. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: What Mike said. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: (edit conflict) At the moment by resources I really meant that the resources available are me and like 10% of Jay (and a little bit of finance). We don't have any other resources assigned to the shop right now and if I can work on a hosted product it makes my life much easier. Yes I understand the privacy implications which is why I asked because what I'm comfortable with != what everyone else is comfortable with (in fact depending on the topic I'm either more liberal or more conservative then most of our community on privacy matters). If it's too much then we won't do it (and so far your reactions seem to say it is) and that's fine and I'll look for alternatives as soon as I can.

::::::Of course our servers can probably handle it but given that the store may well see excessive loads at times it has to be flexible (OWA had major issues when we tried to set it up) and I am hesitant to ask the tech staff to set something up that could take a bit of their time before we know what we really want (or if the current provider will even work). I'll chat with them over drinks to see what the possibilities and maybe I'm overestimating the complexity. I appreciate the offer for the UK support and will obviously consider it in the options that we weigh with legal/tech. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

::::::Just to clarify, I think James was not referring to traffic costs (which would indeed be neglible, as Mike points out), but to the work hours required to set up and maintain such a solution.
::::::In general, it should be pointed out that there are also privacy considerations involved just by transferring users' IP data to other jurisdictions, however trustworthy the receiving entity may be (e.g. we wouldn't want Wikipedia editors' IPs subpoenable under the [[:en:libel tourism|infamous]] UK libel laws; although for a merchandise shop that's less of an issue).
::::::But in any case, I too commend this generous offer by Wikimedia UK and would be really interested to benefit from your expertise - not just for the shop, but also for example for the WMF blog. Which of the stats solutions that you suggested (PiWik, AWstats, OWS) are you currently using on blog.wikimedia.org.uk? And for example, I see that [http://www.webpagetest.org/result/120317_QV_3M4NY/1/domains/ the Wikimedia UK blog shares visitors' IP data] with [[:en:Gravatar|Gravatar]] and Flickr. I assume that the chapter has signed agreements with [[:en:Automattic|Automattic]] and [[:en:Yahoo!|Yahoo!]] (the respective parent companies) to ensure that their use of those IP addresses complies with Wikimedia privacy expectations, and it would be great if you could share some of the insights you gained in that process. (On the WMF blog, the Gravatar option is disabled in Wordpress and hotlinking images from non-Wikimedia sites is [[Wikimedia_Blog/Guidelines#Use_images|discouraged]] for privacy reasons.)
::::::Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 11:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::: The WMUK blog (as well as the other sites we host) uses AWStats. Thanks for catching Gravatar - I hadn't realised that Wordpress used a third party for that (sneaky!), and I've now disabled it. We should only be using images from Commons, or self-hosted on the blog - I'm currently looking for the flickr link... (I suspect someone accidentally used a flickr image in a post somewhere). Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 11:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::::: Mike, I am sorry, as this is so long after the fact. I am curious though what you meant when you said Wordpress used a third party, because Gravatar is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wordpress (or was), as was mentioned by Tbayer. I don't know if that makes a difference, regardless, for privacy. As you said, the only allowed images should be from Commons, or self-hosted on the blog itself. Similarly, I am curious what the resolution was regarding usage of Flickr (and accordingly, Yahoo! who owns it)? Thank you, and again, sorry for the (extreme) time lag. [[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 09:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

* Google Analytics is absolutely out of the question. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

* Not only GA is against the privacy policy and can't possibly be used, but I don't see how tracking users would be within the Wikimedia values, mission or whatever you can think of. Reminder: 1) income is not the objective, 2) no I don't buy Facebook's claim that the big brother is there to provide you what you really want and ensure you happiness (and similar arguments). [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 22:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*: It's a different privacy policy (and not the normal one because of the differences in the working of a shop) but I agree that we want to keep with our values. Personally I think that things like GA are acceptable in my life and I wondered if people would be more amenable to it off of the projects themselves (where I would never accept there). It doesn't appear that's the case (which I knew was a very real possibility) and that's fine and why I asked. I'll find alternatives when we have the time [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
* Case closed we won't use it. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*: Going to try a couple options this weekend on labs and see how they go. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*Whatever those 2 (Mz and Nemo) said, I support. [[User:Theo10011|Theo10011]] ([[User talk:Theo10011|talk]]) 22:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Social Media ===
This is similar to the above question. Traditionally on Wikimedia projects we don't allow something like a facebook 'like' button or an identi.ca or twitter 'follow' button. I'd like to add some of these and while we can get away with some lower featured share buttons without any script coming from facebook/twitter, those share buttons don't offer what I worry people are used to in the general public. Given the difference in style and tone for a 'store' compared to one of our projects I wonder what people would think about this. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
:What's the general public used to that you think would be missing? [[User:Jeremyb|Jeremyb]] ([[User talk:Jeremyb|talk]]) 01:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::The main idea is things along the lines of Facebook like and share buttons buttons (we can do some share without calling facebook but not everything), google +1, twitter follow buttons (that don't just make them 'tweet a specific tweet' which we could do but isn't my favorite) etc. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 01:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: No iframes. It's easy enough to implement sharing icons (Wikinews and other projects already do this), but they may not "call back" to the main site when a user visits. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Aye, I had wanted to try and get a like button in there but it doesn't appear we're going to be able to in a way that will be acceptable. So we won't and I'll use the other options. They aren't ideal but they work [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::Some concrete examples for the kind of privacy-friendly sharing buttons that MZMcBride means: The Signpost has been using them in every story since 2010, see [[:en:Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Signpost-article-start|here]] (click "show" next to "Share this"). The code that Wikinews uses can be found at [[n:Template:Social bookmarks]] and [[n:Template:Main_headlines]]. I can help setting up something like this, it should not be much work. Also worth mentioning is TheDJ's JavaScript-based "[[:en:User:TheDJ/Sharebox|Sharebox]]".
::Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 11:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
::: Right. JavaScript isn't necessarily the problem, especially JavaScript that's hosted locally, assuming it isn't doing anything crazy in it.
::: Perhaps Meta-Wiki or mediawiki.org ought to have a guide for integrating social media into your Web site without compromising user privacy... or rank ideas on a page by most invasive to least and the techniques behind each. Hmmmm. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 16:50, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Non-Wikipedia Project ware ===
We already have some more merchandise in design and ordered for other projects ( Lapel pins, stickers, buttons) but we need more. One of my ideas was the a series similar to the 'I edit Wikipedia' shirts on the store now. Do people like that? Other ideas? [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
: Substitute Wikipedia for the other Wikimedia project names, and you'll win some serious bonus points here. Merchandise for the other Wikimedia projects would be fantastic - although it might not be as popular as the Wikipedia versions, it will go down really well with contributors to other Wikimedia projects (who are in desperate need of encouragement from the WMF!) [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: Yeah that's my belief and I would totally wear other project lapel pins, sport stickers and probably even a wikisource shirt (which I've had a lot of people ask about). Do you think we should just use 'Edit' or another action verb for other projects? ("I proofread wikisource" "I upload on Commons" ? [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Caps ===

I just donated some money to Wiki because it has become a fixture in my life. How did we ever live without Wiki? :)
I also saw the shop for the first time and decided to buy a cap, but couldn't find that in the merchandise. I hope you would consider adding that in.

== How can chapters help? ==

It's great to see the WMF setting up this shop, and for it to be globally available at reasonable cost. I'm wondering, how can chapters help out here? I can think of several potential options:
# Enabling local distribution. It's naturally going to be far cheaper to ship goods in bulk to a chapter who then fulfills the orders within that geographical area, than it will be to send individual orders internationally, since postage costs are expensive but scale pretty well. I'm thinking of the costs here both for the person placing the order, and for Wikimedia/partner organisation fulfilling that order.
# Producing local merchandise. Chapters will naturally be producing merchandise that are specific to their geographical area - whether that's in terms of language, or design localisation. Can/should that merchandise be made available by this store, or by independent stores?
# Supplying equivalent goods locally. Some of these products don't need to be produced in the US - they could be produced in local geographies at lower costs (and hence prices) than producing+shipping from abroad. Is there a way to accommodate that option in this process?
... I'm sure there's other options and aspects here too. Thoughts? Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:I second the questions. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 21:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

::Some replies, speaking for myself, i.e. James may want to dispute me here.. :)
::From personal experience shipping thousands of items for the 10th anniversary, I can say that point one would be logistically a complete nightmare. Even if you might have financial gains, effectively shipping twice is no good. Add on the fact that people would be expecting to come to the WMF with any customer service problems, and if our answer is "well we handed it off to someone locally, go talk to them" it's not going to make people happy. Even though it seems crazy, this is why the most effective international shipping companies use a single major hub wherever possible.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express ]
::As for points two and three... I totally agree these are things worth exploring, especially in terms of possibly cross-pollinating lists of available merchandise so we can show localized material. It would be ''awesome'' if the store knew that someone was in the Netherlands, for instance, and also showed Dutch-language material the chapter had, and vice versa. My only concern here is that when people have produced material locally in the past (the examples I'm thinking of aren't just or primarily chapters) the quality has sometimes been quite poor. That's a big deal not just for the people using/wearing merchandise, but for how much merchandise can support a positive image of the Wikimedia movement. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 22:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I can answer all of the questions now but what I can say is that it's a very open and important question. We're obviously just starting the shop and are going to want to be feeling a lot of things out (and trying a lot of things) but that all of the things you brought up are ideas I've thrown around.
* Local distribution: I will slightly dispute Steven in that this has definitely been something I've thought about both as a revenue source for chapters and well as a nice way to keep shipping costs low for everyone but that his point stands as to why we need to look at it really carefully because it isn't simple (which obviously you guys know). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
* Producing local merchandise/local production: We are definitely going to any/all designs that will likely help with this for chapters etc. I think localization is important as as we expand is going to be even more important and finding the best way to do that is an open question. We want to make sure that we keep the quality as high as possible obviously and make sure we use economies of scales ( for example if it just costs less to make 1000+ here and mass ship). That said I am confident that with careful looking (which chapters who know the area are going to be really helpful with I imagine) we can find good companies with high quality and who respect our values and probably save money especially as we grow.

Sorry I don't have all of the answers at the moment but what I will make clear is that a very important thing drilled into me during my interviews for this job was that it would be part of it to engage with the chapters and find a way to incorporate them with whatever we end up doing. I don't know the best way to do that yet but I intend to help find it. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::: Could you elaborate on your personal experience here, please? From the point of view of WMUK, we effectively distributed 10th anniversary merchandise at a variety of events that took place both that month and in subsequent months in the UK, without placing any additional logistical requirements on the WMF during that process. 'Shipping twice' was incredibly beneficial here. I know that in some cases it didn't work out flawlessly, but I suspect there might be a biased viewpoint here since the areas where this worked well didn't complain, whilst those that it didn't work out so well were fairly vocal.
::: On the quality of local products. Yes, I admit, this can be an issue - since the nature of Wikimedia is to aim to be as cost-effective as possible, and hence chapters naturally aim to minimise costs whilst making the biggest positive impact possible. But this is a simple exercise of quality control. Simply request samples of merchandise before allowing them to be advertised on the store - that way, you ensure that the standard is high enough without excluding involvement here.
::: Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 22:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::: To follow up on the revenue angle: I think that's a red herring. Yes, there is some financial benefit available by selling merchandise, but that's not what we're here to do. We have far more effective ways of raising revenue than merchandise (i.e. the annual Wikimedia fundraiser), and merchandise should be aimed at carrying out outreach to encourage participation in the Wikimedia projects much more than it should be to raise funds for Wikimedia. So I think that viewing it as a revenue source for chapters is quite wrong here... Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 22:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: Just to the revenue point: I agree and the point here is in no way to make money. That said I also didn't want to gloss over it [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== How to place bulk orders? ==

The flip side to my previous question is that this merchandise would be really useful for carrying out outreach within a geographical region. Is there a way that chapters (or other organisations carrying out Wikimedia outreach) can place bulk orders for merchandise at preferential shipping rates? Or are there other approaches that chapters (and those other organisations) should take in order to request this merchandise? Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:Yeah, both at discount (since we're not trying to make profit anyway) and at preferential shipping rates. For now chapters and other groups who want to bulk order should contact me and we'll work something out. We're also setting up an internal store for orders like that within the foundation and it may be something workable for other groups in the future as well. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== Sidebar is funky ==

The "Customer Login" section has lines above and below it. It's inconsistent with the other sections.

Also, the sidebar should generally be using sentence case. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks, fixed the extra line above Customer login looks like a remnant from when I moved some stuff around. I also adjusted the headers for sentence case and may want to take a bit of a look at the link titles when i get a chance. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: Great, thank you! --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 15:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

== Slight image adjustment ==

Hi. The image on the very right of the first row (on the landing page of the store) is a tad larger than any other image in the apparel section. Dunno if that was intentional. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 22:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks Killiondude, not intentional but I think a side effect of how they were taken and cropped (I actually think it may be the same size as the 3 on the 2nd row they are just even so you can't tell). I'll try to play with them a bit offline to get them more even. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== Design templates ==

Hi James,

Could you please post the design templates (the PDFs or SVGs) of the actual items? It would be very useful for localisation and customisation purposes.

Thanks, --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Bence, I've already started trying to get what we can. I'll get back to you on Monday after conferring with Jay. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 09:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks. I see the category to watch is [[:commons:Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_merchandise]], it would be great to have the original designs (even if in some proprietary format) as opposed to just jpegs. --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
:::Aye. the pdf for the back of the t-shirts is on there not but I'm going to try and get more of what we originally used. I actually believe for some of them we may well have given just mockups (like the hoodie and sweatshirt ones available) but I'll try to get the high quality versions we originally used and anything else I can find and upload them somewhere easy (commons if a normal file type for there and foundation if not). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]])18:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

== Logo on the left ==
I'd like a t-shirt with the logo set to the left like the polo shirt. [[User:BenjaminBarrett12|BenjaminBarrett12]] ([[User talk:BenjaminBarrett12|talk]]) 00:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
:::I'd buy a t-shirt with <nowiki>[citation needed]</nowiki> across the back. - [[User:Dravecky|Dravecky]] ([[User talk:Dravecky|talk]]) 01:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

== Polo design ==

I like the track jacket colors but a jacket isn't very practical for attending WP editing sessions that are held indoors. Can you let people customize the colors of the polos? I suggest a black or dark blue polo with white trim on the sleeves and collar. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 10:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
: At the moment we're trying to keep it simpler (with less customization so that we don't have to do print on demand) but it's definitely on the list of things we want to do for a couple items. I also want to look at some other options for a nice polo as well. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
::Great. While we're discussing polos I'd like to request that the sleeves be longer than what's shown in the current photo. It would be nice to have polos that are suitable for business casual. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 11:00, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

== Security certificate is invalid ==

Two different browsers tell me that the security certificate for https://shop.wikimedia.org/ has problems because the certificate wasn't issued for shop.wikimedia.org. Please fix. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 10:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
: Yeah, you're getting the correct warning. This is on the [[Wikimedia_merchandise#Is_the_store_secure.3F|FAQ]] at the moment. Sadly it's a limitation of the software and infrastructure that we're working with them to fix (sadly not as easy to od as I would like). There should not be any links to https content and so most people are getting these issues because they are using the https everywhere extension which assumes that all *.wikimedia.org sites have an https version (and this doesn't). HttpsEverywhere has already committed a change that will exempt the shop.wikimedia.org address from the extension and so will stop the warnings for people during their next release. I'm hopeful that we'll have the issue fixed and I can have them before that (and I can have them revert the change) but I wanted to be sure. The checkout pages do in fact have correctly matching certificates and so don't have this problem.
: I'll be following up with shopify, again, on this Monday by phone [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
::This problem is still happening. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 06:11, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:::But at least [https://www.eff.org/files/Changelog.txt by now] EFF has pushed out the above mentioned exemption in the current release versions of HTTPS Everywhere, so you should not get the error message any more when accessing http://shop.wikimedia.org/ on Firefox or Chrome with an up to date version of HTTP Everywhere. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 21:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
::::I'm using the latest stable release, 2.05. Are you referring to 3.0development.2? [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 05:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::No, I am using 2.05 as well (on Firefox, and 2012.5.1 on Chrome). According to [https://gitweb.torproject.org/https-everywhere.git/log/refs/tags/2.0.3], it was added in 2.0.3. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 22:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::That's strange. Anyway, I reinstalled 2.0.5 and now it works as expected. Thanks. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 06:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

== Wikipe-tan! ==

Wikipedia has an awesome unofficial mascot, [[w:WP:Wikipe-tan]]! I would love a t-shirt with the Commons pic of her in a library and the caption being something along the lines of 'Wikipedia addict.' Anyway, the shop is a great idea and the more diversity of styles, Wikimedia projects, and icons/mascots you use, the better! —''The preceding [[w:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:206.176.245.202|206.176.245.202]] ([[User talk:206.176.245.202|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.176.245.202|contribs]]) .
:Wikipe-tan has been explicitly demoted from unofficial mascot status because she has been shown to make the projects less welcoming to women. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

::I just read that sentence, that Wikpe-tan "has been shown to make the projects less welcoming to women", and rolled my eyes upward, slightly. Then I clicked and viewed Wikipe-tan. She is cute, but she doesn't look like she should be editing Wikipedia. I acknowledge that Wikipe-tan might be considered differently in a cultural milieu other than my own. However, I trust that Wikimedia has looked into the matter adequately. As a female Wikipedia contributor, I'd rather see, well, nearly any representation of an adult woman (as in "18 years of age or older") than Wikipe-tan, and regardless of ethnicity, hairstyle or clothing (even none at all, and no, I'm not a lesbian). The key is post-pubescent. Thank you so much, to whomever made this decision. --[[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 10:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

::I have to join FeralOink in congratulating whomever made this decision. As both a woman and a manga fan, I'm glad Wikipedia is careful of chauvinistic antisocial undertones.[[User:Tulpoeid|Tulpoeid]] ([[User talk:Tulpoeid|talk]]) 20:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Go ahead and put "Wikipe-tan" on a T-shirt. Just get ready to experience an even greater influx of weeaboo.

::::Is Tulpoeid being sarcastic? I shouldn't have said "thank you" to Wikimedia, I guess. I just looked up weeaboo after reading the comment thread above. Apparently, [https://encyclopediadramatica.se/File:Kawaiiguy.jpg this is weeaboo]. I don't think we should facilitate [http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Weeaboo weeaboo], even obliquely, as the final unsigned reply said. Those poor souls seem to dislike their own ethnicity and culture, and obsessively emulate an idealized, distorted version of another culture, which elicits ridicule by all. That will lead to grief, as people (especially youth) must have a positive self-image in order to be happy.
::::I just learned the expression "Yellow Fever" on Quora, which prior to now, I thought was an [http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/ insect-borne viral haemorrhagic disease], endemic in Latin American and Africa. There is a very different "Yellow Fever" in popular culture, it seems. Apparently, weeaboo is a strain of The Other Yellow Fever. I had no idea. I guess I should just say "thank you" and not provide further detail in the future. But that seems kind of meaningless. I don't know... sigh. I didn't mean to offend anyone, which I probably did with my first comment, saying "Thank you". --[[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 09:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

== A few small glitches/suggestions ==

1. I should tell you that when I placed my first order, in the email I received I was given a tracking number as a link, but when I clicked on it, the USPS site page said in red,

"Delivery status information is not available for your item via this website. A return receipt after mailing may be available through your local Post Office."

2. I think you might want to consider putting a "click to enlarge" note near the photos of the items.

3. On my second order when I forgot to include the expiration date for the credit card, I got into a odd set of consequences based on "credit card expired", which was a bit off-putting. I managed to get back out again OK but some shoppers might give up at that point.

4. I like the design of the women's "I edit Wikipedia "box" Tee" but I don't like 50/50 polyester/cotton which can be too hot in hot weather and also with this blend the armpits of the tee start to smell as the shirt ages. Also... does this tee have a "heathered" (minutely mottled) background as it appears to in the images? If so, then the description should say it is heathered.

The page needs to be prettier to look at. It's a bit plain and needs more color and to look more "pulled together". Don't we have some good graphic designers somewhere?

Other than these points, the shop is reasonably well set up and works pretty well as far as I can tell. [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 00:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks Invertzoo! Thanks for the comments we're definitely trying to find these pain points and see what we can do about them.
:* Yeah I've been whining a bit about the USPS tracking links. I thought we had fixed that already and will look into it again. At the very least I want to make sure we have a note about it because you run into two issues depending on how it's mailed. The USPS page has very bad text even when it's a "valid" tracking code that just doesn't work yet because it's not in the system yet (but will be in the next 12-24 hours) . Then you have things like 1st class mail which doesn't have tracking (or sometimes worse has tracking within the US and then just seems frozen in time and never updates after it leaves the US).
:* We definitely want to make things a bit prettier. I'm very open to thoughts and will definitely be poking our good graphic designers (already have a couple of them)
:* The credit card deal is weird... I'll see what we can do about that.
:* Do you have suggestions for better t-shirt material? We can definitely look into other variations for other generations of the shirt or other shirts. It is heathered, I tried to get that across with the shirt "color" name but that may not be clear enough we can put it into the description too.
[[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 13:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks Jalexander for your considerate reply!

::*Tee shirts are generally nicer to wear when they are 100% cotton, even though in some cases that can shrink a bit in the dryer.

::*I am not a graphic designer, but here are a few ideas:

:::**Perhaps the shop page can have a colored background, something like that to make it more cheerful?

:::**Maybe the photos would look better if they were not thumbnailed but instead the image reached to the edge of each box? The two rectangles, one within the other, are a bit harsh.

:::**Next time you photograph tees on people, try to find prettier backgrounds, maybe (as was the case in the fundraising images) you can use bushes or trees? Because the grey painted wall is really a bit grim.

:::**If you are going to use real people as models (which I think is fine), see if you can get people to crack up a bit more, or give 'em a glass or two of wine first so they relax more. The best photos currently are the Wikipedia Globe Tee image and the Globe Hoodie images. Everyone else looks a bit too "guarded".

:::**The globe hoodie image is longer than the rest, that kind of thing looks amateurish.

:::**Inside the "Welcome to The Wikimedia Shop" box, you need word-wrap, which it doesn't have right now.

:::**The shop could use a little friendly and lively advertising copy, high up on that first page, such as, "Show the world you love Wikipedia."
:::**The current lines, "Welcome to The Wikimedia Shop The official online store for Wikipedia and its sister projects. All revenues from your purchases go to the Wikimedia Foundation, the 501(c)3 non profit that operates Wikipedia and its sister projects" are very dry indeed, and not much fun at all. The shop needs to be a kind of a fun place.

::: [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 00:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

== Commons merchandise ==

Hello,

In continuation of the discussion on [[Commons:Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2012/03#New_Wikimedia_Shop_feedback.2Fhelp_requested]], I think a good idea for a Commons shirt would be one saying "Wikimedia Commons photographer". I think this might help some Commons photographers get access to things they want to photograph (whether people, artifacts, etc.) due to the perception that that person is working with a media institution (which is accurate). As well, I think it's better than just "I shoot for Commons", since the word "Commons" is fairly ambiguous.

Thank you! [[User:InverseHypercube|InverseHypercube]] ([[User talk:InverseHypercube|talk]]) 01:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== Wrong page title ==

Hi. When I visit http://shop.wikimedia.org, the page title is "The Wikimedia Shop | The Wikipedia Shop". This is wrong. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
: Hey MZ, this was set by me on purpose both because it is in fact both (It is The Wikimedia Shop AND The Wikipedia Shop) and for SEO/Search Engine reasons. Wikimedia Shop is not a well known search engine phrase at all and is very difficult to get into search queries (which we need especially given how others like to try and sell Wikipedia products even through google ads). Wikipedia Shop and other related terms are, on the other hand, well known (because of the Wikipedia brand) and because there are already tens of thousands of people who search for a wikipedia shop every month, compared to very few who think to search for the Wikimedia shop (according to google 74k searches for Wikipedia Shop every month compared to 50k for Wikipedia Store and 58 for Wikimedia Shop). We're only doing it on the main page ( and it will show up as the search engine link because of that) and I think that's ok, on all other pages it's the product page/page name and | The Wikimedia Shop. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
:: I think you should leave search engine optimization to search engines. As long as shop.wikipedia.org redirects and the page is littered with references to Wikipedia (which it is), it's going to come up fairly high (if not number one) for "wikipedia shop", "wikipedia store", etc. And if not, that's not your problem.
:: Putting a link to the store in the footer or other part of the interface of the English Wikipedia will also obviously help, though I realize you're currently "soft launching."
:: The page title is wrong. It should be fixed. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
:::Agreed. It will sort itself out. [[User:InverseHypercube|InverseHypercube]] ([[User talk:InverseHypercube|talk]]) 21:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
::::What about "The Wikimedia and Wikipedia Shop"? That seems less awkward. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 22:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
::::: I agree, I'll adjust it to that for now. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

== Content pages in the shop ==

There are certain content pages being hosted on http://shop.wikimedia.org such as http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/about-wikimedia or http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/payment-methods. I'd like for these pages to pull their content from Meta-Wiki or wikimediafoundation.org. This will result in less duplication, proper revision control and monitoring of the content, presumably easier translation of the page text, etc. How feasible is this? Or are there alternate approaches that you have in mind that might work better?

I feel this is a fairly important issue, particularly with regard to monitoring changes to the privacy policy and terms of use and such. I also feel that a wiki shop must be largely editable by the wiki community. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== "Pick a currency" on every page ==

The "pick a currency" selector on every page (including content pages) is incredibly annoying. Can this be adjusted to not show up globally or be moved to the sidebar or something? The current implementation is simply obnoxious. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== Made in American Wiki items ==

I just visited the shop and read the discussion with suggestions on how to improve the shop, merchandise, the experience of shopping there etc. I agree the site could be more attractive and i trust that's going to happen. I'm so glad someone mentioned selling only 100% cotton shirts. I have been wearing 100% cotton ever since I began buying my own clothing. Dressed my kids in cotton too. Washing cotton tees in cold water, which is great for the environment and the utility bills, is the way to go. I hang everything to dry then throw stuff in the dryer on "air" for a couple of minutes to get rid of the stiffness and wrinkles. No, I do not iron anything. Cold water and no hot drying also prolongs the life of items. Drying destroys the elastic on underwear for example and just generally "wears out" the fabric. I find I am able to preserve my clothes for years and years and more years. I've been able to pass on cool kid clothing to my grands because I took care of it to begin with and that's really fun. Gotta add that none of my kids ever had any clothing they couldn't play in, couldn't get "dirty". Full disclosure: I do dry towels and sheets. Although I have a tiny house, I also have space to hang dry which I realize many might not have. Still, it's amazing how little room a wooden drying rack can take up. Show curtain rods work as do door hangers. I'd like to add that I couldn't find anything about where the items are made. I want to know the cotton used doesn't involve child labor in any way, or sweatshops. I'm sure you're all thinking about this too and I trust the stuff is responsibly made. I always try to buy responsibly and mindfully in addition to preserving what I have so I can buy less. I do want a Wiki tee but I just donated to Wiki and can't buy a tee too. Perhaps a button. Thanks for the terrific work all you Wiki people.

== Rethink our promotions of Wikimedia ==

Since we have such valuable services, why do we not promote ourselves more on the popular services? Yahoo, Google, MSN?
I understand advertising costs, but there are also opportunities to comment on popular or current events...and provide links to Wikimedia and its offerings.
We're way too deep into offering something valuable just to be groveling among people who believe...we have reach more outside of our comfort zone.

== Copyediting ==

Please forgive my pedanticism, but I've got a whole load of copyediting issues with the store.

On the [http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/questions-and-answers#ProductCommitment Q&A page]:

:One-hundred percent of the proceeds from the Wikimedia shop go to the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit organization that operates Wikipedia and other free knowledge projects.

"One-hundred percent" should be "100%".

:Social Imprints is a third-party printing and fulfillment company. They manage the fulfillment and shipping of all orders from the WIkimedia Shop. You can learn more about them on their website.

"WIkimedia" should be "Wikimedia".

:Our branded products are manufactured in the United States, China, India, Pakistan, El Salvador, and Guatemala, Our fulfillment partner, Social Imprints, is a San Francisco-based employee-owned cooperative that provides professional jobs to at-risk adults in the SF Bay area.

There should be a full stop rather than a comma between the words "Guatemala" and "Our fulfillment partner".

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-globe-shirts Wikipedia Globe Tee with Wikipedia written in multiple languages]:

: Puzzling pieces together the world round.

This sentence doesn't actually seem to mean anything.

: Back: "Wikipedia" in 58 languages.

For clarity, this should say "Back: The word 'Wikipedia' in 58 different languages." The back of the t-shirt probably doesn't contain Wikipedia in 58 different languages.

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-stickers-pack-of-12 Wikimedia Project Stickers (Pack of 12)]:

: In this package you'll receive twelve two-inch round vinyl stickers with 1 each for Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundationn and...

"Foundation" has rather too many N's.

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-pins Wikipedia lapel pin]:

:A badge of honor

That's a very weird thing to say.

Anyway, hope that helps. Finally, I can have a Wikinews sticker to put on my laptop. And a Wikiversity sticker to put on the door to my nearest public lavatory and/or insane asylum! —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 14:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Tom, I'm making most of these changes right now on a copy of the site which should go live soon (if it gets delayed by more then a couple days I'll just put them live. Though I'm a bit confused about your "badge of honor" comment. I didn't write that page (I believe Jay did a while back) but it's a phrasing I'm very familiar with and makes sense to me.. what is your concern? It's possible that it's just a American/North American phrasing that doesn't make much sense outside? If so we may want to think of something else. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:41, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

==Misc ideas==
* Some community stores have "submit a picture of you in this item" features -- that would be pretty fun, to build a gallery of editors wearing stuff. Maybe holding up signs with the name of their favorite article or similar? We could jumpstart something at wikimania.
* sister project swag! WMF swag!
* mugs! pencils! stickers! notebooks! cards! :)
-- [[user:phoebe|phoebe]] | [[user_talk:phoebe|talk]] 18:14, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* humorous screen print t-shirts. For example "I couldn't have passed high school without Wikipedia" --[[Special:Contributions/65.33.176.94|65.33.176.94]] ([[user talk:65.33.176.94|talk]])

==Protest sign==
It would be very cool to see this comic on items. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png [[Special:Contributions/98.164.0.12|98.164.0.12]] 05:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
:Why not just the sign for sale? [[Special:Contributions/71.212.249.178|71.212.249.178]] 04:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
::There is no such sign for sale, as far as I can see (maybe there was at the time of the above comment). Still, I don't think the market for them would be large enough to merit sale ...but what about [citation needed] stickers?--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 00:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
:::If anyone wants one we could make it thought. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 01:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

== More metric measurements ==

Most of the world has no idea how big inches are so it would be good if we included more metric measurements for accessories and things. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 20:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Kaldari, that's a good idea (I was thinking about it for apparel but not for the accessories etc). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::I hate when global corporations are so US centric, but you too, Wikipedia? Who uses fluid ounces for containers instead of ml (or other equivalent unit) outside of the USA? [[User:REO1976|REO1976]] ([[User talk:REO1976|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:::From what I understand, fluids are often (though still not always) referred to in ml, even in the US, nowadays. Bottles or cans of coca cola, or the like, are always metric ...but inches are still used in the US and the UK. Pretty much everyone else, are sensible enough to use metric units, though. It's sad to see that this issue hasn't been fixed, despite it having been pointed out several months ago.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 16:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
::::That's very fair, this should have been updated earlier. I've tried to keep things listed in both imperial/US and metric measurements. I've updated the waterbottle page and if you see any others before I get to them let me know (it's about 710ml by the way ). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

=== Measures still in imperial units ===
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee I Edit Wikipedia "box" Tee] - '''27"''' length → 68.58 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee-heart I Edit Wikipedia "heart" Tee] - '''23"''' lenghth → 58.42 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-buttons Wikimedia Project Buttons (pack of 13)] - thirteen '''one-inch''' pinback buttons → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-stickers-pack-of-12 Wikimedia Project Stickers (Pack of 12)] - twelve '''two-inch''' round vinyl stickers → 5.08 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-button-pack Wikipedia Globe Buttons (5 pack)] - '''one-inch''' Wikipedia puzzle globe buttons → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-key-chain Wikipedia Key Chain]
::: puzzle globe: '''2"''' diameter → 5.08 cm
::: Key chain: '''1"''' diameter → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wiki-pens Wikipedia Pens (Pack of 5)] - '''5.5"''' length → 13.97 cm

I have given the exact conversions (1" = 2.54 cm), feel free to round them as you like. I have not converted the references to 15" and 17" laptops, because as far as I know every laptop manufacturer gives these measurements in inches everywhere around the world. [[User:REO1976|REO1976]] ([[User talk:REO1976|talk]]) 22:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

==Community launch?==
When did this phase begin? When will it end? --[[User:Elitre|Elitre]] ([[User talk:Elitre|talk]]) 11:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Elitre, The phase essentially began when this page was created and then 'kept going' as we worked out bugs. I think we're getting to a point soon where we can roll out a version 2 and start to think about a more public launch. It's currently aiming towards about Wikimania (early July) or end of June. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

== Bugs? ==

Where do I file bugs regarding http://shop.wikimedia.org? Does a [[bugzilla:|Bugzilla]] category need to be created? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
: Replied to MZ off wiki as well but yeah, I think that would be a great idea. Would make things much easier to track especially as we ramp up. [[bugzilla:37533|Requested by MZ]]. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 05:06, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

== WIkimedia ==

It says "About the W'''I'''kimedia Foundation" in the sidebar of the shop, under "About us". Regards, [[User:Rock drum|Rock drum]] ([[User talk:Rock drum|talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Rock drum|contribs]]) 14:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
:Fixed, thanks! [[Special:Contributions/216.38.130.164|216.38.130.164]]

== Inconsistent phrasing/capitalization ==

In the ''Accessories'' section, I see "(pack of #)", "(Pack of #)", and "(# Pack)". These should be made consistent. Similarly, some item names have every word capitalized, and others only have the first word capitalized. These should also be made consistent. --[[User:Cryptic C62|Cryptic C62]] ([[User talk:Cryptic C62|talk]]) 01:37, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

== Add USB keys? Laser pointer presentation remotes? ==

Dear James: I am partial to [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/561925783/Flat_mini_usb_key.html] but [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/498653822/hot_sell_usb_flash_drive_key.html] may have substantial advantages in hard to reach places. Which of those do you think would be best?

Also please share your opinion of [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/391209557/Red_Laser_Pointer_remote_control_laser.html], [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/400410510/USB_key_with_laser_pointer_and.html], [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/584116373/Hot_seller_usb_flash_presenter_laser.html], and [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/592134096/Pen_style_new_laser_pointer_Powerpoint.html]. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.249.178|71.212.249.178]] 04:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:I personally like the idea of a USB drive, however I never purchase any USB drive that has the innards exposed like that because they get too damaged to use very quickly. I recommend one that flips shut. I also recommend selling the USB individually or in a (slightly) discounted three pack, as having several good USB flash drives is good practice. As for the laser pointers, I'm worried that we might not have the market to sell them. Mind you if you get a USB/laser pointer combo for $US 10, I'd strongly consider it, but not anything pricier than that. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 01:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

::I have carried the larger key model on my key ring for more than two years now and it shows no wear on the surface or contacts. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that the first of those two USB key links now redirects to the same model as the second, except in silver ''or black'', so I presume the original smaller unit is unavailable, which is probably just as well as it is unlikely to work at all with a keyring next to USB-A cables. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

== Add some of the old products again? ==
Can you add a mouse pad and mug?

How about a poster? they should come with a lower price

== question about languages ==

I bought a [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-globe-shirts Wikipedia Globe Tee with Wikipedia written in multiple languages] at the WikiMania. Where is there a key to the languages?

Thanks - [[User:Virginia-American|Virginia-American]] ([[User talk:Virginia-American|talk]]) 13:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
: Hey Virginia-American, there is a key at [[:File:Wikipedia_language_shirt_names.png]]. I'm looking into making little cards that we can send out with the shirt so that people have it with them as well :) . [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

== dihydrogen monoxide container ==

Can you comment on the volumetric capacity of the dihydrogen monoxide storage and transportation unit that you sell? I would be interested in any impact tests that have been performed on the aforementioned product.
:Closest image match[http://www.identity-links.com/drinkware/water-bottles/aluminum/28-oz-ecolife-recyclable-aluminum-bottle] says 28 ounces. This should certainly be specified. It is probably also a good idea to note that the mouth of the bottle is wide enough to accommodate ice cubes, as that is exceptional in my experience. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks 71.212, sorry for the delay in responding here. It's actually 24oz (I had to check for some reason I didn't have it written down) but the top is the same size as that one and it is indeed good for icecubes (I use it with ice on my desk most days). I'll add both notes to the product page this evening and maybe tweak it around a bit to add a bit more. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I haven't done impact tests, but if you knock it against a hard surface (e.g. a rock on a hike) the paint will chip. Apart from the aesthetic problem, it should survive everyday impact situations. (I am sure over time someone will have a Will it blend? video up on the net... :) --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 18:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

== Translation of the shop ==
{{tracked|37797}}
Hi, the page says that the translation of the shop into more languages is incredibly important, which is true, and it says "I'm having a meeting with some guys from their team in the next couple days and will keep everyone up to date on the progress for this". Did this happen? Is there more information on the progress for this? Is internationalization considered as a required aspect for the shop under the Wikimedia plan/budget? Thanks, [[User:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] ([[User talk:SPQRobin|talk]]) 14:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

== Note about the water bottle ==

I picked up a water bottle (blue) at Wikimania, and wanted to let James/everyone know that the blue coating flakes off of the bottom. Thus far it hasn't flaked off on parts that are easy to see, but most of the bottom is gone for me now. I don't consider my treatment of the product to be harsh. One of my acquaintances has the same bottle (not Wikipedia branded) and it also flakes, so I think it's a product flaw. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 06:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Sven, If you get a chance could you grab a picture and shoot it to me? I've seen it flaking a bit on the bottom as well since Wikimania but they mostly seemed to 'come that way' and not flake much in normal wear. I'd love to have some pictures to show them. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia merchandise ==

Hi, I'd like to suggest that the Wikimedia shop offer some Wikimedia shirts, for those of us that are not just Wikipedia contributors. Something like a tshirt with the Wikimedia Community logo + Wikimedia written on the front and all the project logos on the back in a circle or something. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 18:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Snowolf, I agree. The lapel pins were a step in that direction but we definitely want to have some apparel and other products for everyone else as well. I'm hoping to have at least a couple new things up for the holidays (and so should be sharing ideas soon). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 02:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

== USPS Priority Mail Int'l reliability ==

Some orders for Europe does not seem to be able to leave California.
I have placed an order for wikipedia merchandise on Sept 20th 2012.
This order is now (November 6th) still on holding in San Francisco.
A second order was sent on Oct 24th and today still on holding in Los Angeles.
:I'm sorry that I didn't see and respond to this earlier, I agree :(. I had no possible idea that the USPS Priority system (which is very efficient within the country) would be so horrible outside. We've taken it completely out as an option for International users (and will not be using it for our flat rate option anymore either). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Product suggestion: Wikipedia Car Emblems ==

Something I would like to see is a 5 inch (12.7 cm) wide car emblem ([http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=car+emblem see examples of other car emblems]), which generally come with tape backings or magnetic backings for placement on the rear of a vehicle.

Several would be possible (these examples are not exhaustive):
*Wikipedia Globe only
*WikipediA text only
*Wikipedia Globe with WikipediA text

Just some food for thought. [[User:John Shandy`|John Shandy`]] ([[User talk:John Shandy`|talk]]) 20:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Project Buttons: pack of 12 or 13 ==

[https://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-buttons] Inconsistency between title and description. --[[User:Tommyang|Tommyang]] ([[User talk:Tommyang|talk]]) 21:44, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

== More merchandise ideas ==

[[EN:User talk:Ldavis_%28WMF%29#Stress_balls.3F]], stress balls and baseball caps. --[[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|✉]] 23:20, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
:Heh, we actually have 'wikipedia contributor' stress balls for the education program I believe. I'd want them a bit more designed for the shop I think but could be a good option :) Baseball caps are another one that have been brought up frequently, my guess is the next two things to look closely at are caps and mugs. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

==Expanding merchandise manufacturing==
Just returned from a family wedding where I was, as per usual, promoting Wikimedia. One of my cousins is into manufacturing and his website is here [http://theringlord.com/cart/]

He likes to make stuff and is interested in looking at designs related to Wikipedia / Wikimedia ( with new laser and 3 D printing equipment having just been installed ). He has agreed to give 100% of the profits from any sales to the WMF. Sales could either take place via his website or via the WMF's website.

He has also agreed to donate 10% of monies raised from sales of his usual merchandise on ebay [http://www.ebay.com/itm/Basic-Chainmail-Jewelry-Kit-Saw-Cut-Bright-Aluminum-/150967403892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23265bc574] Not exactly sure who at the WMF I would need permission from. Is it Asaf? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 04:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
::Anyway he will make up some prototypes and I will post pictures here when he send them to me. He primary makes metal stuff, but is beginning to work with wood and plastic. He would also probably be interested in making other peoples designs. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 04:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
::: At the moment we've tended to stray away from licensing merchandise for many reasons (that I'm happy to explain more if people want) and so selling elsewhere is likely out of the question for now. However all options are open. I know you've sent Asaf and I an email about it and he explained a bit about the licensing issues but overall I'd want to see some general idea of what we're talking about before we go further. We are certainly going to be looking for more products in the coming year but we're going to need to go, relatively, slow on that since the shop is really very small right now. That means we have to make tougher decisions on 'what goes first' etc but I am more then happy to be have other options to put in front of Myself, Jay and the shop team. As I'm digging out of the email blockade over the next couple days I'll get back to you (I have about 1000 emails a week right now and so the holidays buried me a bit, but I've been working remotely the past 2 days and will be back in the office tomorrow afternoon) [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Certainly and this is definitely something that the community should weight in on. No one want to tarnish the good name all of us have worked to create. I guess the main question is our we open to offer a similar arrangement we have with "social imprints" to other similar organizations? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 23:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

== Baseball caps ==

I agree with the two people who said (both recently and quite a while ago) that there should be a cap for sale with the Wikipedia or WIkimedia logo on it. If the cap was well designed, and came in good colors, I believe it would sell well. [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 15:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

:There was one in this page who wanted "old products" back, his examples were mouse pad, mug and poster. But I am quite sure there were also caps for sale at one time. Am I wrong and it was someone else than Wikimedia selling them? [[Special:Contributions/85.217.44.150|85.217.44.150]] 02:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

== Timing ==

I know this has long been in the making, folks have worked very hard to make it happen, Wikipedia's birthday usually is a good reason to celebrate, and it might be just me but I don't feel like appreciating "Happy birthday Wikipedia! 15% off"-banners [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AaronSw&diff=prev&oldid=532911077 right now] :o( --[[User:Jan eissfeldt|Jan eissfeldt]] ([[User talk:Jan eissfeldt|talk]]) 08:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:People of good faith can disagree; in this, I totally understand what you are feeling. While I would hesitate to call myself close I considered him a friend from home (I'm from Boston) and the night when I found out was incredibly rough with no small amount of tears. I considered canceling, but in the end I just didn't think that it was the right thing to do. I think one of the lessons we have to learn is that life must go on. I think we have to celebrate what we've done together - with Aaron's help. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 09:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Colours ==

Is there any simple and not too costly way to get more colour options? I wouldn't want any of the shirts currently available, but if the "I Edit Wikipedia" T-shirt (preferably the box version) was available in a nice green colour (somewhere in the area of forest green, army green or similar), I'd definitely get a couple of 'em. 
I would also suggest offering them in black and in white. Most people would quite like, or consider decent, one and/or the other.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 09:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== "I edit Wikipedia" sticker? ==
The "I edit Wikipedia" banner image is what made me click on the shop link on Wikipedia today, but I can't find anything like it for sale. The banner makes it look like something I can buy. Can I?

I'd love an "I edit Wikipedia" vinyl sticker. It'd look great on my laptop and explain to everyone else in the cafe/library what I'm spending all my time doing there. I'm sure other people would feel the same way. 11:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: Hmm, the sticker idea is an interesting one, I'm experimenting with a new sticker company and needed to make some random sticker ideas :) I'll try to throw this in the test batch and send some your way for free. That image is actually a crop from one of the [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee t-shirts we have for sale] (my favorite one in fact). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 11:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC) On a side note we do actually throw 2 WP Globe stickers into every order... but I don't actually say that anywhere it's just a nice 'surprise' .

::Wow, that would be great! Let me know if you need any help brainstorming some sticker ideas. I think there's a lot you could play with, because Wikipedia has so much of its own language and culture to draw from. I mean, who ''wouldn't'' buy a "Citation needed" sticker? [[User:Popcornduff|Popcornduff]] ([[User talk:Popcornduff|talk]]) 13:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:I second this suggestion. I'd love a couple of "I edit Wikipedia" stickers.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 15:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Shop way ==

I would like to pay with cash,I have not credits card,don't use it,How I do? think they should raise small "Wiki store" in some cities and countries [[User:Carliitaeliza|Carliitaeliza]] ([[User talk:Carliitaeliza|talk]]) 12:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
==Calendar==
How difficult could it be to create a low quality PDF showing all the pages from the WLM calendar and link to it? --[[User:Elitre|Elitre]] ([[User talk:Elitre|talk]]) 16:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: It's not necessarily low quality but we did get [[:File:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_calendar_for_2013.pdf|one uploaded recently]]. I'll try to get it linked on the product page as soon as I can too :) [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Lack of shipping information ==

After more than 5 minutes spent trying to find the shipping costs I still can find nothing meaningful, even after adding items to my cart (and no, the "Shipping" on the left column doesn't provide meaningful information). I worry this might discourage people from going on with their order. [[User:Tulpoeid|Tulpoeid]] ([[User talk:Tulpoeid|talk]]) 20:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: Yeah, I've looked into this before and it was proving to be problematic to supply shipping prices before the final checkout step with the API options available but I just looked into it again and it looks like the software has been updated to a point that I should be able to add this. I'm going to try and get it up today but with the rush of things it may be pushed off a day or two depending on if I hit any speed bumps. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== A typo at shipping ==

It is said at [//shop.wikimedia.org/pages/shipping shipping]: "You will receive a shipping conformation". It seems to me that "conf'''o'''rmation" is a typo and must be "conf'''i'''rmation". [[User:Gamliel Fishkin|Gamliel Fishkin]] ([[User talk:Gamliel Fishkin|talk]]) 00:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

==Wikipedia on a disc of metal==
[[File:Rsz img 0070.jpg|thumb|Wikipedia discs]]
Here are some discs my cousin made. He is looking for more ideas if anyone has any. Example of other stuff he makes is here [http://theringlord.com/cart/] [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 09:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

== "You are browsing our secure server" bar at the very top of the page ==

I'm guessing the intention is to flag to the customer's attention that they've entered a secure area, which is fine with me.

I'm not comfortable giving the customer assurances that they're looking at a secure server, though. That's what the address bar is for, and we need to educate people to use and trust that and the certificate, and not introduce other (spoofable) indicators.

<gallery widths="300px" heights="165px">File:You are browsing our secure server.jpg|Screenshot of a shop.wikimedia.org page, showing the yellowish bar at the top containing the words "You are browsing our secure server"</gallery>

My concern, in brief, is that such a message adds no assurance of actual security, and a phishing website could just as easily display such a message. If I'm no web designer, but I've seen a lot of webpages; I suspect that if someone were to impersonate the Wikimedia Shop, they could easily incorporate an identical-looking bar at the top of their page.

'''My point:''' I suggest that we replace this by an indication that it '''''should''''' be secure, and how to check whether it is.

(How to check? Probably by checking whether the address bar starts with ''<nowiki>https://shop.wikimedia.org</nowiki>''--on Windows, this goes for Chrome, FF, IE9 (didn't check the others), and (I think) Safari, but not Opera.)

[[User:Mathieu ottawa|Mathieu ottawa]] ([[User talk:Mathieu ottawa|talk]]) 19:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC) (edited by the same on 20:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC) to inline the image for aesthetics and clarity, since the previous section also has an image, plus tweaks to the text)

== Wikimedia project accessories lack new projects: Wikidata and Wikivoyage ==

Just a suggestion to add [[wikidata:|Wikidata]] and [[voy:|Wikivoyage]] to the options of buttons, lapel pins and stickers when possible, so that the shop isn't biased against these great two projects. Already Wikivoyage is burgeoning ahead as one of the WMF's more successful and popular wikis! In the long-run, I think some Wikivoyage merchandise that could be used while travelling would be fantastic. I don't think our community would have an issue with actively "advertising" the shop in our wiki's sidebar if there was Wikivoyage merchandise. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Wikimedia merchandise

2013-02-25T12:02:21Z

JamesA: /* Wikimedia project accessories lack new projects: Wikidata and Wikivoyage */ new section

{{Message| <center>Store Feedback</center>
Please let us know what you think about [http://shop.wikimedia.org/ shop.wikimedia.org]:
* What errors are you finding
* What do you think should be changed/added/removed
* If you ordered something was it how you expected it? Are there packaging changes you would like?
* Any other comments? Essentially everything can change.
* If you'd prefer feel free to email James at jalexander{{@}}wikimedia.org (or through [[Special:EmailUser/Jalexander|Special:EmailUser]])
}}
{{Archive box non-auto|[[/Archive1]]}}

== Shop Advisory Committee ==

Interested in joining the [[Wikimedia_merchandise#Shop_Advisory_Committee|Shop Advisory Committee]] ? Sign up below:
# [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]]
# [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 03:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']] [[User_talk:Thehelpfulone| '''Helpful''']] [[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone| '''One''']] 20:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
# I'm not much at outreach or PR, but I'm great at having opinions and recommendations. [[User:Fluffernutter|Fluffernutter]] ([[User talk:Fluffernutter|talk]]) 23:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)|Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)]] ([[User talk:Catrin Schoneville (WMDE)|talk]]) 11:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
# Sign me up to counter each of Fluffernutter's "opinions and recommendations" :P just kidding ;) But i'm in. -- [[User:DeltaQuad|DQ]][[User_Talk:DeltaQuad| (ʞlɐʇ) ]] 23:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 20:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 22:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Naveenpf|naveenpf]] ([[User talk:Naveenpf|talk]]) 05:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
# If you'd ever need a volunteer to create mockups/designs for the merchandise, I'd be happy to help out. [[user:odder|odder]] ([[user talk:odder|talk]]) 11:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Zscout370]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]] 08:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]]
# [[User:Odisha1|Odisha1]]
# [[User:Varnent|Varnent]] ([[User talk:Varnent|talk]])
# '' Noah Weisling ''
# '' Greg Makano ''
# [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 23:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
# [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 11:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

== Specific questions for discussion ==

=== Google Analytics ===
I'd honestly love to get better statistics on who is visiting the shop. Given what is happening on it we have a different privacy policy but that doesn't mean we throw out our traditional norms. I'm interested in what people think about using Google Analytics to do this on the shop so that we can have a better understanding of where people are coming from. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
: Statistics are always good. Google is evil nowadays, and not to be trusted with visitor information. Why not use a freely available, open source package instead? [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: I would totally be open to one though I haven't found a good option yet :( OWA for example was taken down and isn't active at the foundation anymore (and would need some significant resources most likely). Does anyone have some ideas? [[Special:Contributions/216.38.130.164|216.38.130.164]]
::: There's lots of options out there. E.g. [http://piwik.org/ PiWik], [http://awstats.sourceforge.net/ AWstats], [http://obsessive.sourceforge.net/ OWS], and many more that a quick websearch shows up. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::: aye, the problem at the moment is that I do not have the resources to be hosting it on our servers. It may be an option in the future but isn't one yet. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::::: Um, seriously? Given all of the investment that has been put into the WMF servers (which runs into the tens of millions of dollars now), I'm really surprised to hear this. I would strongly encourage you to confirm this with the WMF tech group.
::::: If this is a serious problem, then perhaps WMUK can help here. Google Analytics basically works by downloading a webpage from a website that Google operates - there must be ways that a subsection of the WMUK server (which I currently manage) can be set up in an analogous fashion in order to provide these statistics, whilst ensuring that the data abides by the Wikimedia movement's privacy policies rather than forcing visitors to involuntarily opt in to Google's privacy policies. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: What Mike said. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: (edit conflict) At the moment by resources I really meant that the resources available are me and like 10% of Jay (and a little bit of finance). We don't have any other resources assigned to the shop right now and if I can work on a hosted product it makes my life much easier. Yes I understand the privacy implications which is why I asked because what I'm comfortable with != what everyone else is comfortable with (in fact depending on the topic I'm either more liberal or more conservative then most of our community on privacy matters). If it's too much then we won't do it (and so far your reactions seem to say it is) and that's fine and I'll look for alternatives as soon as I can.

::::::Of course our servers can probably handle it but given that the store may well see excessive loads at times it has to be flexible (OWA had major issues when we tried to set it up) and I am hesitant to ask the tech staff to set something up that could take a bit of their time before we know what we really want (or if the current provider will even work). I'll chat with them over drinks to see what the possibilities and maybe I'm overestimating the complexity. I appreciate the offer for the UK support and will obviously consider it in the options that we weigh with legal/tech. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

::::::Just to clarify, I think James was not referring to traffic costs (which would indeed be neglible, as Mike points out), but to the work hours required to set up and maintain such a solution.
::::::In general, it should be pointed out that there are also privacy considerations involved just by transferring users' IP data to other jurisdictions, however trustworthy the receiving entity may be (e.g. we wouldn't want Wikipedia editors' IPs subpoenable under the [[:en:libel tourism|infamous]] UK libel laws; although for a merchandise shop that's less of an issue).
::::::But in any case, I too commend this generous offer by Wikimedia UK and would be really interested to benefit from your expertise - not just for the shop, but also for example for the WMF blog. Which of the stats solutions that you suggested (PiWik, AWstats, OWS) are you currently using on blog.wikimedia.org.uk? And for example, I see that [http://www.webpagetest.org/result/120317_QV_3M4NY/1/domains/ the Wikimedia UK blog shares visitors' IP data] with [[:en:Gravatar|Gravatar]] and Flickr. I assume that the chapter has signed agreements with [[:en:Automattic|Automattic]] and [[:en:Yahoo!|Yahoo!]] (the respective parent companies) to ensure that their use of those IP addresses complies with Wikimedia privacy expectations, and it would be great if you could share some of the insights you gained in that process. (On the WMF blog, the Gravatar option is disabled in Wordpress and hotlinking images from non-Wikimedia sites is [[Wikimedia_Blog/Guidelines#Use_images|discouraged]] for privacy reasons.)
::::::Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 11:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
::::::: The WMUK blog (as well as the other sites we host) uses AWStats. Thanks for catching Gravatar - I hadn't realised that Wordpress used a third party for that (sneaky!), and I've now disabled it. We should only be using images from Commons, or self-hosted on the blog - I'm currently looking for the flickr link... (I suspect someone accidentally used a flickr image in a post somewhere). Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 11:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::::: Mike, I am sorry, as this is so long after the fact. I am curious though what you meant when you said Wordpress used a third party, because Gravatar is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wordpress (or was), as was mentioned by Tbayer. I don't know if that makes a difference, regardless, for privacy. As you said, the only allowed images should be from Commons, or self-hosted on the blog itself. Similarly, I am curious what the resolution was regarding usage of Flickr (and accordingly, Yahoo! who owns it)? Thank you, and again, sorry for the (extreme) time lag. [[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 09:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

* Google Analytics is absolutely out of the question. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:52, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

* Not only GA is against the privacy policy and can't possibly be used, but I don't see how tracking users would be within the Wikimedia values, mission or whatever you can think of. Reminder: 1) income is not the objective, 2) no I don't buy Facebook's claim that the big brother is there to provide you what you really want and ensure you happiness (and similar arguments). [[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 22:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*: It's a different privacy policy (and not the normal one because of the differences in the working of a shop) but I agree that we want to keep with our values. Personally I think that things like GA are acceptable in my life and I wondered if people would be more amenable to it off of the projects themselves (where I would never accept there). It doesn't appear that's the case (which I knew was a very real possibility) and that's fine and why I asked. I'll find alternatives when we have the time [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
* Case closed we won't use it. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*: Going to try a couple options this weekend on labs and see how they go. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
*Whatever those 2 (Mz and Nemo) said, I support. [[User:Theo10011|Theo10011]] ([[User talk:Theo10011|talk]]) 22:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Social Media ===
This is similar to the above question. Traditionally on Wikimedia projects we don't allow something like a facebook 'like' button or an identi.ca or twitter 'follow' button. I'd like to add some of these and while we can get away with some lower featured share buttons without any script coming from facebook/twitter, those share buttons don't offer what I worry people are used to in the general public. Given the difference in style and tone for a 'store' compared to one of our projects I wonder what people would think about this. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
:What's the general public used to that you think would be missing? [[User:Jeremyb|Jeremyb]] ([[User talk:Jeremyb|talk]]) 01:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::The main idea is things along the lines of Facebook like and share buttons buttons (we can do some share without calling facebook but not everything), google +1, twitter follow buttons (that don't just make them 'tweet a specific tweet' which we could do but isn't my favorite) etc. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 01:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: No iframes. It's easy enough to implement sharing icons (Wikinews and other projects already do this), but they may not "call back" to the main site when a user visits. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Aye, I had wanted to try and get a like button in there but it doesn't appear we're going to be able to in a way that will be acceptable. So we won't and I'll use the other options. They aren't ideal but they work [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::Some concrete examples for the kind of privacy-friendly sharing buttons that MZMcBride means: The Signpost has been using them in every story since 2010, see [[:en:Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Signpost-article-start|here]] (click "show" next to "Share this"). The code that Wikinews uses can be found at [[n:Template:Social bookmarks]] and [[n:Template:Main_headlines]]. I can help setting up something like this, it should not be much work. Also worth mentioning is TheDJ's JavaScript-based "[[:en:User:TheDJ/Sharebox|Sharebox]]".
::Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 11:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
::: Right. JavaScript isn't necessarily the problem, especially JavaScript that's hosted locally, assuming it isn't doing anything crazy in it.
::: Perhaps Meta-Wiki or mediawiki.org ought to have a guide for integrating social media into your Web site without compromising user privacy... or rank ideas on a page by most invasive to least and the techniques behind each. Hmmmm. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 16:50, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Non-Wikipedia Project ware ===
We already have some more merchandise in design and ordered for other projects ( Lapel pins, stickers, buttons) but we need more. One of my ideas was the a series similar to the 'I edit Wikipedia' shirts on the store now. Do people like that? Other ideas? [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 04:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
: Substitute Wikipedia for the other Wikimedia project names, and you'll win some serious bonus points here. Merchandise for the other Wikimedia projects would be fantastic - although it might not be as popular as the Wikipedia versions, it will go down really well with contributors to other Wikimedia projects (who are in desperate need of encouragement from the WMF!) [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: Yeah that's my belief and I would totally wear other project lapel pins, sport stickers and probably even a wikisource shirt (which I've had a lot of people ask about). Do you think we should just use 'Edit' or another action verb for other projects? ("I proofread wikisource" "I upload on Commons" ? [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

=== Caps ===

I just donated some money to Wiki because it has become a fixture in my life. How did we ever live without Wiki? :)
I also saw the shop for the first time and decided to buy a cap, but couldn't find that in the merchandise. I hope you would consider adding that in.

== How can chapters help? ==

It's great to see the WMF setting up this shop, and for it to be globally available at reasonable cost. I'm wondering, how can chapters help out here? I can think of several potential options:
# Enabling local distribution. It's naturally going to be far cheaper to ship goods in bulk to a chapter who then fulfills the orders within that geographical area, than it will be to send individual orders internationally, since postage costs are expensive but scale pretty well. I'm thinking of the costs here both for the person placing the order, and for Wikimedia/partner organisation fulfilling that order.
# Producing local merchandise. Chapters will naturally be producing merchandise that are specific to their geographical area - whether that's in terms of language, or design localisation. Can/should that merchandise be made available by this store, or by independent stores?
# Supplying equivalent goods locally. Some of these products don't need to be produced in the US - they could be produced in local geographies at lower costs (and hence prices) than producing+shipping from abroad. Is there a way to accommodate that option in this process?
... I'm sure there's other options and aspects here too. Thoughts? Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:I second the questions. [[User:Ziko|Ziko]] ([[User talk:Ziko|talk]]) 21:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

::Some replies, speaking for myself, i.e. James may want to dispute me here.. :)
::From personal experience shipping thousands of items for the 10th anniversary, I can say that point one would be logistically a complete nightmare. Even if you might have financial gains, effectively shipping twice is no good. Add on the fact that people would be expecting to come to the WMF with any customer service problems, and if our answer is "well we handed it off to someone locally, go talk to them" it's not going to make people happy. Even though it seems crazy, this is why the most effective international shipping companies use a single major hub wherever possible.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express ]
::As for points two and three... I totally agree these are things worth exploring, especially in terms of possibly cross-pollinating lists of available merchandise so we can show localized material. It would be ''awesome'' if the store knew that someone was in the Netherlands, for instance, and also showed Dutch-language material the chapter had, and vice versa. My only concern here is that when people have produced material locally in the past (the examples I'm thinking of aren't just or primarily chapters) the quality has sometimes been quite poor. That's a big deal not just for the people using/wearing merchandise, but for how much merchandise can support a positive image of the Wikimedia movement. [[User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling (WMF)]] • [[User talk:Steven (WMF)|talk]] 22:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I can answer all of the questions now but what I can say is that it's a very open and important question. We're obviously just starting the shop and are going to want to be feeling a lot of things out (and trying a lot of things) but that all of the things you brought up are ideas I've thrown around.
* Local distribution: I will slightly dispute Steven in that this has definitely been something I've thought about both as a revenue source for chapters and well as a nice way to keep shipping costs low for everyone but that his point stands as to why we need to look at it really carefully because it isn't simple (which obviously you guys know). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
* Producing local merchandise/local production: We are definitely going to any/all designs that will likely help with this for chapters etc. I think localization is important as as we expand is going to be even more important and finding the best way to do that is an open question. We want to make sure that we keep the quality as high as possible obviously and make sure we use economies of scales ( for example if it just costs less to make 1000+ here and mass ship). That said I am confident that with careful looking (which chapters who know the area are going to be really helpful with I imagine) we can find good companies with high quality and who respect our values and probably save money especially as we grow.

Sorry I don't have all of the answers at the moment but what I will make clear is that a very important thing drilled into me during my interviews for this job was that it would be part of it to engage with the chapters and find a way to incorporate them with whatever we end up doing. I don't know the best way to do that yet but I intend to help find it. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
::: Could you elaborate on your personal experience here, please? From the point of view of WMUK, we effectively distributed 10th anniversary merchandise at a variety of events that took place both that month and in subsequent months in the UK, without placing any additional logistical requirements on the WMF during that process. 'Shipping twice' was incredibly beneficial here. I know that in some cases it didn't work out flawlessly, but I suspect there might be a biased viewpoint here since the areas where this worked well didn't complain, whilst those that it didn't work out so well were fairly vocal.
::: On the quality of local products. Yes, I admit, this can be an issue - since the nature of Wikimedia is to aim to be as cost-effective as possible, and hence chapters naturally aim to minimise costs whilst making the biggest positive impact possible. But this is a simple exercise of quality control. Simply request samples of merchandise before allowing them to be advertised on the store - that way, you ensure that the standard is high enough without excluding involvement here.
::: Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 22:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::: To follow up on the revenue angle: I think that's a red herring. Yes, there is some financial benefit available by selling merchandise, but that's not what we're here to do. We have far more effective ways of raising revenue than merchandise (i.e. the annual Wikimedia fundraiser), and merchandise should be aimed at carrying out outreach to encourage participation in the Wikimedia projects much more than it should be to raise funds for Wikimedia. So I think that viewing it as a revenue source for chapters is quite wrong here... Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 22:31, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::: Just to the revenue point: I agree and the point here is in no way to make money. That said I also didn't want to gloss over it [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== How to place bulk orders? ==

The flip side to my previous question is that this merchandise would be really useful for carrying out outreach within a geographical region. Is there a way that chapters (or other organisations carrying out Wikimedia outreach) can place bulk orders for merchandise at preferential shipping rates? Or are there other approaches that chapters (and those other organisations) should take in order to request this merchandise? Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 21:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:Yeah, both at discount (since we're not trying to make profit anyway) and at preferential shipping rates. For now chapters and other groups who want to bulk order should contact me and we'll work something out. We're also setting up an internal store for orders like that within the foundation and it may be something workable for other groups in the future as well. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== Sidebar is funky ==

The "Customer Login" section has lines above and below it. It's inconsistent with the other sections.

Also, the sidebar should generally be using sentence case. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks, fixed the extra line above Customer login looks like a remnant from when I moved some stuff around. I also adjusted the headers for sentence case and may want to take a bit of a look at the link titles when i get a chance. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
:: Great, thank you! --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 15:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

== Slight image adjustment ==

Hi. The image on the very right of the first row (on the landing page of the store) is a tad larger than any other image in the apparel section. Dunno if that was intentional. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 22:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks Killiondude, not intentional but I think a side effect of how they were taken and cropped (I actually think it may be the same size as the 3 on the 2nd row they are just even so you can't tell). I'll try to play with them a bit offline to get them more even. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

== Design templates ==

Hi James,

Could you please post the design templates (the PDFs or SVGs) of the actual items? It would be very useful for localisation and customisation purposes.

Thanks, --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Bence, I've already started trying to get what we can. I'll get back to you on Monday after conferring with Jay. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 09:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks. I see the category to watch is [[:commons:Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_merchandise]], it would be great to have the original designs (even if in some proprietary format) as opposed to just jpegs. --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 17:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
:::Aye. the pdf for the back of the t-shirts is on there not but I'm going to try and get more of what we originally used. I actually believe for some of them we may well have given just mockups (like the hoodie and sweatshirt ones available) but I'll try to get the high quality versions we originally used and anything else I can find and upload them somewhere easy (commons if a normal file type for there and foundation if not). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]])18:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

== Logo on the left ==
I'd like a t-shirt with the logo set to the left like the polo shirt. [[User:BenjaminBarrett12|BenjaminBarrett12]] ([[User talk:BenjaminBarrett12|talk]]) 00:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
:::I'd buy a t-shirt with <nowiki>[citation needed]</nowiki> across the back. - [[User:Dravecky|Dravecky]] ([[User talk:Dravecky|talk]]) 01:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

== Polo design ==

I like the track jacket colors but a jacket isn't very practical for attending WP editing sessions that are held indoors. Can you let people customize the colors of the polos? I suggest a black or dark blue polo with white trim on the sleeves and collar. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 10:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
: At the moment we're trying to keep it simpler (with less customization so that we don't have to do print on demand) but it's definitely on the list of things we want to do for a couple items. I also want to look at some other options for a nice polo as well. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
::Great. While we're discussing polos I'd like to request that the sleeves be longer than what's shown in the current photo. It would be nice to have polos that are suitable for business casual. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 11:00, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

== Security certificate is invalid ==

Two different browsers tell me that the security certificate for https://shop.wikimedia.org/ has problems because the certificate wasn't issued for shop.wikimedia.org. Please fix. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 10:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
: Yeah, you're getting the correct warning. This is on the [[Wikimedia_merchandise#Is_the_store_secure.3F|FAQ]] at the moment. Sadly it's a limitation of the software and infrastructure that we're working with them to fix (sadly not as easy to od as I would like). There should not be any links to https content and so most people are getting these issues because they are using the https everywhere extension which assumes that all *.wikimedia.org sites have an https version (and this doesn't). HttpsEverywhere has already committed a change that will exempt the shop.wikimedia.org address from the extension and so will stop the warnings for people during their next release. I'm hopeful that we'll have the issue fixed and I can have them before that (and I can have them revert the change) but I wanted to be sure. The checkout pages do in fact have correctly matching certificates and so don't have this problem.
: I'll be following up with shopify, again, on this Monday by phone [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
::This problem is still happening. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 06:11, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:::But at least [https://www.eff.org/files/Changelog.txt by now] EFF has pushed out the above mentioned exemption in the current release versions of HTTPS Everywhere, so you should not get the error message any more when accessing http://shop.wikimedia.org/ on Firefox or Chrome with an up to date version of HTTP Everywhere. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 21:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
::::I'm using the latest stable release, 2.05. Are you referring to 3.0development.2? [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 05:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::No, I am using 2.05 as well (on Firefox, and 2012.5.1 on Chrome). According to [https://gitweb.torproject.org/https-everywhere.git/log/refs/tags/2.0.3], it was added in 2.0.3. Regards, [[User:Tbayer (WMF)|Tbayer (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Tbayer (WMF)|talk]]) 22:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::That's strange. Anyway, I reinstalled 2.0.5 and now it works as expected. Thanks. [[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|(talk)]] 06:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

== Wikipe-tan! ==

Wikipedia has an awesome unofficial mascot, [[w:WP:Wikipe-tan]]! I would love a t-shirt with the Commons pic of her in a library and the caption being something along the lines of 'Wikipedia addict.' Anyway, the shop is a great idea and the more diversity of styles, Wikimedia projects, and icons/mascots you use, the better! —''The preceding [[w:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:206.176.245.202|206.176.245.202]] ([[User talk:206.176.245.202|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/206.176.245.202|contribs]]) .
:Wikipe-tan has been explicitly demoted from unofficial mascot status because she has been shown to make the projects less welcoming to women. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

::I just read that sentence, that Wikpe-tan "has been shown to make the projects less welcoming to women", and rolled my eyes upward, slightly. Then I clicked and viewed Wikipe-tan. She is cute, but she doesn't look like she should be editing Wikipedia. I acknowledge that Wikipe-tan might be considered differently in a cultural milieu other than my own. However, I trust that Wikimedia has looked into the matter adequately. As a female Wikipedia contributor, I'd rather see, well, nearly any representation of an adult woman (as in "18 years of age or older") than Wikipe-tan, and regardless of ethnicity, hairstyle or clothing (even none at all, and no, I'm not a lesbian). The key is post-pubescent. Thank you so much, to whomever made this decision. --[[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 10:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

::I have to join FeralOink in congratulating whomever made this decision. As both a woman and a manga fan, I'm glad Wikipedia is careful of chauvinistic antisocial undertones.[[User:Tulpoeid|Tulpoeid]] ([[User talk:Tulpoeid|talk]]) 20:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

:::Go ahead and put "Wikipe-tan" on a T-shirt. Just get ready to experience an even greater influx of weeaboo.

::::Is Tulpoeid being sarcastic? I shouldn't have said "thank you" to Wikimedia, I guess. I just looked up weeaboo after reading the comment thread above. Apparently, [https://encyclopediadramatica.se/File:Kawaiiguy.jpg this is weeaboo]. I don't think we should facilitate [http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Weeaboo weeaboo], even obliquely, as the final unsigned reply said. Those poor souls seem to dislike their own ethnicity and culture, and obsessively emulate an idealized, distorted version of another culture, which elicits ridicule by all. That will lead to grief, as people (especially youth) must have a positive self-image in order to be happy.
::::I just learned the expression "Yellow Fever" on Quora, which prior to now, I thought was an [http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/ insect-borne viral haemorrhagic disease], endemic in Latin American and Africa. There is a very different "Yellow Fever" in popular culture, it seems. Apparently, weeaboo is a strain of The Other Yellow Fever. I had no idea. I guess I should just say "thank you" and not provide further detail in the future. But that seems kind of meaningless. I don't know... sigh. I didn't mean to offend anyone, which I probably did with my first comment, saying "Thank you". --[[User:FeralOink|FeralOink]] ([[User talk:FeralOink|talk]]) 09:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

== A few small glitches/suggestions ==

1. I should tell you that when I placed my first order, in the email I received I was given a tracking number as a link, but when I clicked on it, the USPS site page said in red,

"Delivery status information is not available for your item via this website. A return receipt after mailing may be available through your local Post Office."

2. I think you might want to consider putting a "click to enlarge" note near the photos of the items.

3. On my second order when I forgot to include the expiration date for the credit card, I got into a odd set of consequences based on "credit card expired", which was a bit off-putting. I managed to get back out again OK but some shoppers might give up at that point.

4. I like the design of the women's "I edit Wikipedia "box" Tee" but I don't like 50/50 polyester/cotton which can be too hot in hot weather and also with this blend the armpits of the tee start to smell as the shirt ages. Also... does this tee have a "heathered" (minutely mottled) background as it appears to in the images? If so, then the description should say it is heathered.

The page needs to be prettier to look at. It's a bit plain and needs more color and to look more "pulled together". Don't we have some good graphic designers somewhere?

Other than these points, the shop is reasonably well set up and works pretty well as far as I can tell. [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 00:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
: Thanks Invertzoo! Thanks for the comments we're definitely trying to find these pain points and see what we can do about them.
:* Yeah I've been whining a bit about the USPS tracking links. I thought we had fixed that already and will look into it again. At the very least I want to make sure we have a note about it because you run into two issues depending on how it's mailed. The USPS page has very bad text even when it's a "valid" tracking code that just doesn't work yet because it's not in the system yet (but will be in the next 12-24 hours) . Then you have things like 1st class mail which doesn't have tracking (or sometimes worse has tracking within the US and then just seems frozen in time and never updates after it leaves the US).
:* We definitely want to make things a bit prettier. I'm very open to thoughts and will definitely be poking our good graphic designers (already have a couple of them)
:* The credit card deal is weird... I'll see what we can do about that.
:* Do you have suggestions for better t-shirt material? We can definitely look into other variations for other generations of the shirt or other shirts. It is heathered, I tried to get that across with the shirt "color" name but that may not be clear enough we can put it into the description too.
[[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 13:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks Jalexander for your considerate reply!

::*Tee shirts are generally nicer to wear when they are 100% cotton, even though in some cases that can shrink a bit in the dryer.

::*I am not a graphic designer, but here are a few ideas:

:::**Perhaps the shop page can have a colored background, something like that to make it more cheerful?

:::**Maybe the photos would look better if they were not thumbnailed but instead the image reached to the edge of each box? The two rectangles, one within the other, are a bit harsh.

:::**Next time you photograph tees on people, try to find prettier backgrounds, maybe (as was the case in the fundraising images) you can use bushes or trees? Because the grey painted wall is really a bit grim.

:::**If you are going to use real people as models (which I think is fine), see if you can get people to crack up a bit more, or give 'em a glass or two of wine first so they relax more. The best photos currently are the Wikipedia Globe Tee image and the Globe Hoodie images. Everyone else looks a bit too "guarded".

:::**The globe hoodie image is longer than the rest, that kind of thing looks amateurish.

:::**Inside the "Welcome to The Wikimedia Shop" box, you need word-wrap, which it doesn't have right now.

:::**The shop could use a little friendly and lively advertising copy, high up on that first page, such as, "Show the world you love Wikipedia."
:::**The current lines, "Welcome to The Wikimedia Shop The official online store for Wikipedia and its sister projects. All revenues from your purchases go to the Wikimedia Foundation, the 501(c)3 non profit that operates Wikipedia and its sister projects" are very dry indeed, and not much fun at all. The shop needs to be a kind of a fun place.

::: [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 00:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

== Commons merchandise ==

Hello,

In continuation of the discussion on [[Commons:Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2012/03#New_Wikimedia_Shop_feedback.2Fhelp_requested]], I think a good idea for a Commons shirt would be one saying "Wikimedia Commons photographer". I think this might help some Commons photographers get access to things they want to photograph (whether people, artifacts, etc.) due to the perception that that person is working with a media institution (which is accurate). As well, I think it's better than just "I shoot for Commons", since the word "Commons" is fairly ambiguous.

Thank you! [[User:InverseHypercube|InverseHypercube]] ([[User talk:InverseHypercube|talk]]) 01:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== Wrong page title ==

Hi. When I visit http://shop.wikimedia.org, the page title is "The Wikimedia Shop | The Wikipedia Shop". This is wrong. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
: Hey MZ, this was set by me on purpose both because it is in fact both (It is The Wikimedia Shop AND The Wikipedia Shop) and for SEO/Search Engine reasons. Wikimedia Shop is not a well known search engine phrase at all and is very difficult to get into search queries (which we need especially given how others like to try and sell Wikipedia products even through google ads). Wikipedia Shop and other related terms are, on the other hand, well known (because of the Wikipedia brand) and because there are already tens of thousands of people who search for a wikipedia shop every month, compared to very few who think to search for the Wikimedia shop (according to google 74k searches for Wikipedia Shop every month compared to 50k for Wikipedia Store and 58 for Wikimedia Shop). We're only doing it on the main page ( and it will show up as the search engine link because of that) and I think that's ok, on all other pages it's the product page/page name and | The Wikimedia Shop. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
:: I think you should leave search engine optimization to search engines. As long as shop.wikipedia.org redirects and the page is littered with references to Wikipedia (which it is), it's going to come up fairly high (if not number one) for "wikipedia shop", "wikipedia store", etc. And if not, that's not your problem.
:: Putting a link to the store in the footer or other part of the interface of the English Wikipedia will also obviously help, though I realize you're currently "soft launching."
:: The page title is wrong. It should be fixed. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
:::Agreed. It will sort itself out. [[User:InverseHypercube|InverseHypercube]] ([[User talk:InverseHypercube|talk]]) 21:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
::::What about "The Wikimedia and Wikipedia Shop"? That seems less awkward. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 22:06, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
::::: I agree, I'll adjust it to that for now. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

== Content pages in the shop ==

There are certain content pages being hosted on http://shop.wikimedia.org such as http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/about-wikimedia or http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/payment-methods. I'd like for these pages to pull their content from Meta-Wiki or wikimediafoundation.org. This will result in less duplication, proper revision control and monitoring of the content, presumably easier translation of the page text, etc. How feasible is this? Or are there alternate approaches that you have in mind that might work better?

I feel this is a fairly important issue, particularly with regard to monitoring changes to the privacy policy and terms of use and such. I also feel that a wiki shop must be largely editable by the wiki community. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== "Pick a currency" on every page ==

The "pick a currency" selector on every page (including content pages) is incredibly annoying. Can this be adjusted to not show up globally or be moved to the sidebar or something? The current implementation is simply obnoxious. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 19:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

== Made in American Wiki items ==

I just visited the shop and read the discussion with suggestions on how to improve the shop, merchandise, the experience of shopping there etc. I agree the site could be more attractive and i trust that's going to happen. I'm so glad someone mentioned selling only 100% cotton shirts. I have been wearing 100% cotton ever since I began buying my own clothing. Dressed my kids in cotton too. Washing cotton tees in cold water, which is great for the environment and the utility bills, is the way to go. I hang everything to dry then throw stuff in the dryer on "air" for a couple of minutes to get rid of the stiffness and wrinkles. No, I do not iron anything. Cold water and no hot drying also prolongs the life of items. Drying destroys the elastic on underwear for example and just generally "wears out" the fabric. I find I am able to preserve my clothes for years and years and more years. I've been able to pass on cool kid clothing to my grands because I took care of it to begin with and that's really fun. Gotta add that none of my kids ever had any clothing they couldn't play in, couldn't get "dirty". Full disclosure: I do dry towels and sheets. Although I have a tiny house, I also have space to hang dry which I realize many might not have. Still, it's amazing how little room a wooden drying rack can take up. Show curtain rods work as do door hangers. I'd like to add that I couldn't find anything about where the items are made. I want to know the cotton used doesn't involve child labor in any way, or sweatshops. I'm sure you're all thinking about this too and I trust the stuff is responsibly made. I always try to buy responsibly and mindfully in addition to preserving what I have so I can buy less. I do want a Wiki tee but I just donated to Wiki and can't buy a tee too. Perhaps a button. Thanks for the terrific work all you Wiki people.

== Rethink our promotions of Wikimedia ==

Since we have such valuable services, why do we not promote ourselves more on the popular services? Yahoo, Google, MSN?
I understand advertising costs, but there are also opportunities to comment on popular or current events...and provide links to Wikimedia and its offerings.
We're way too deep into offering something valuable just to be groveling among people who believe...we have reach more outside of our comfort zone.

== Copyediting ==

Please forgive my pedanticism, but I've got a whole load of copyediting issues with the store.

On the [http://shop.wikimedia.org/pages/questions-and-answers#ProductCommitment Q&A page]:

:One-hundred percent of the proceeds from the Wikimedia shop go to the Wikimedia Foundation, the non-profit organization that operates Wikipedia and other free knowledge projects.

"One-hundred percent" should be "100%".

:Social Imprints is a third-party printing and fulfillment company. They manage the fulfillment and shipping of all orders from the WIkimedia Shop. You can learn more about them on their website.

"WIkimedia" should be "Wikimedia".

:Our branded products are manufactured in the United States, China, India, Pakistan, El Salvador, and Guatemala, Our fulfillment partner, Social Imprints, is a San Francisco-based employee-owned cooperative that provides professional jobs to at-risk adults in the SF Bay area.

There should be a full stop rather than a comma between the words "Guatemala" and "Our fulfillment partner".

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-globe-shirts Wikipedia Globe Tee with Wikipedia written in multiple languages]:

: Puzzling pieces together the world round.

This sentence doesn't actually seem to mean anything.

: Back: "Wikipedia" in 58 languages.

For clarity, this should say "Back: The word 'Wikipedia' in 58 different languages." The back of the t-shirt probably doesn't contain Wikipedia in 58 different languages.

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-stickers-pack-of-12 Wikimedia Project Stickers (Pack of 12)]:

: In this package you'll receive twelve two-inch round vinyl stickers with 1 each for Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundationn and...

"Foundation" has rather too many N's.

On [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-pins Wikipedia lapel pin]:

:A badge of honor

That's a very weird thing to say.

Anyway, hope that helps. Finally, I can have a Wikinews sticker to put on my laptop. And a Wikiversity sticker to put on the door to my nearest public lavatory and/or insane asylum! —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 14:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Tom, I'm making most of these changes right now on a copy of the site which should go live soon (if it gets delayed by more then a couple days I'll just put them live. Though I'm a bit confused about your "badge of honor" comment. I didn't write that page (I believe Jay did a while back) but it's a phrasing I'm very familiar with and makes sense to me.. what is your concern? It's possible that it's just a American/North American phrasing that doesn't make much sense outside? If so we may want to think of something else. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:41, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

==Misc ideas==
* Some community stores have "submit a picture of you in this item" features -- that would be pretty fun, to build a gallery of editors wearing stuff. Maybe holding up signs with the name of their favorite article or similar? We could jumpstart something at wikimania.
* sister project swag! WMF swag!
* mugs! pencils! stickers! notebooks! cards! :)
-- [[user:phoebe|phoebe]] | [[user_talk:phoebe|talk]] 18:14, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* humorous screen print t-shirts. For example "I couldn't have passed high school without Wikipedia" --[[Special:Contributions/65.33.176.94|65.33.176.94]] ([[user talk:65.33.176.94|talk]])

==Protest sign==
It would be very cool to see this comic on items. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png [[Special:Contributions/98.164.0.12|98.164.0.12]] 05:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
:Why not just the sign for sale? [[Special:Contributions/71.212.249.178|71.212.249.178]] 04:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
::There is no such sign for sale, as far as I can see (maybe there was at the time of the above comment). Still, I don't think the market for them would be large enough to merit sale ...but what about [citation needed] stickers?--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 00:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
:::If anyone wants one we could make it thought. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 01:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

== More metric measurements ==

Most of the world has no idea how big inches are so it would be good if we included more metric measurements for accessories and things. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 20:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Kaldari, that's a good idea (I was thinking about it for apparel but not for the accessories etc). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
::I hate when global corporations are so US centric, but you too, Wikipedia? Who uses fluid ounces for containers instead of ml (or other equivalent unit) outside of the USA? [[User:REO1976|REO1976]] ([[User talk:REO1976|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:::From what I understand, fluids are often (though still not always) referred to in ml, even in the US, nowadays. Bottles or cans of coca cola, or the like, are always metric ...but inches are still used in the US and the UK. Pretty much everyone else, are sensible enough to use metric units, though. It's sad to see that this issue hasn't been fixed, despite it having been pointed out several months ago.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 16:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
::::That's very fair, this should have been updated earlier. I've tried to keep things listed in both imperial/US and metric measurements. I've updated the waterbottle page and if you see any others before I get to them let me know (it's about 710ml by the way ). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

=== Measures still in imperial units ===
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee I Edit Wikipedia "box" Tee] - '''27"''' length → 68.58 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee-heart I Edit Wikipedia "heart" Tee] - '''23"''' lenghth → 58.42 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-buttons Wikimedia Project Buttons (pack of 13)] - thirteen '''one-inch''' pinback buttons → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-stickers-pack-of-12 Wikimedia Project Stickers (Pack of 12)] - twelve '''two-inch''' round vinyl stickers → 5.08 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-button-pack Wikipedia Globe Buttons (5 pack)] - '''one-inch''' Wikipedia puzzle globe buttons → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-key-chain Wikipedia Key Chain]
::: puzzle globe: '''2"''' diameter → 5.08 cm
::: Key chain: '''1"''' diameter → 2.54 cm
#[http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wiki-pens Wikipedia Pens (Pack of 5)] - '''5.5"''' length → 13.97 cm

I have given the exact conversions (1" = 2.54 cm), feel free to round them as you like. I have not converted the references to 15" and 17" laptops, because as far as I know every laptop manufacturer gives these measurements in inches everywhere around the world. [[User:REO1976|REO1976]] ([[User talk:REO1976|talk]]) 22:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

==Community launch?==
When did this phase begin? When will it end? --[[User:Elitre|Elitre]] ([[User talk:Elitre|talk]]) 11:03, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Elitre, The phase essentially began when this page was created and then 'kept going' as we worked out bugs. I think we're getting to a point soon where we can roll out a version 2 and start to think about a more public launch. It's currently aiming towards about Wikimania (early July) or end of June. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:27, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

== Bugs? ==

Where do I file bugs regarding http://shop.wikimedia.org? Does a [[bugzilla:|Bugzilla]] category need to be created? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
: Replied to MZ off wiki as well but yeah, I think that would be a great idea. Would make things much easier to track especially as we ramp up. [[bugzilla:37533|Requested by MZ]]. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 05:06, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

== WIkimedia ==

It says "About the W'''I'''kimedia Foundation" in the sidebar of the shop, under "About us". Regards, [[User:Rock drum|Rock drum]] ([[User talk:Rock drum|talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Rock drum|contribs]]) 14:19, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
:Fixed, thanks! [[Special:Contributions/216.38.130.164|216.38.130.164]]

== Inconsistent phrasing/capitalization ==

In the ''Accessories'' section, I see "(pack of #)", "(Pack of #)", and "(# Pack)". These should be made consistent. Similarly, some item names have every word capitalized, and others only have the first word capitalized. These should also be made consistent. --[[User:Cryptic C62|Cryptic C62]] ([[User talk:Cryptic C62|talk]]) 01:37, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

== Add USB keys? Laser pointer presentation remotes? ==

Dear James: I am partial to [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/561925783/Flat_mini_usb_key.html] but [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/498653822/hot_sell_usb_flash_drive_key.html] may have substantial advantages in hard to reach places. Which of those do you think would be best?

Also please share your opinion of [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/391209557/Red_Laser_Pointer_remote_control_laser.html], [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/400410510/USB_key_with_laser_pointer_and.html], [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/584116373/Hot_seller_usb_flash_presenter_laser.html], and [http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/592134096/Pen_style_new_laser_pointer_Powerpoint.html]. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.249.178|71.212.249.178]] 04:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

:I personally like the idea of a USB drive, however I never purchase any USB drive that has the innards exposed like that because they get too damaged to use very quickly. I recommend one that flips shut. I also recommend selling the USB individually or in a (slightly) discounted three pack, as having several good USB flash drives is good practice. As for the laser pointers, I'm worried that we might not have the market to sell them. Mind you if you get a USB/laser pointer combo for $US 10, I'd strongly consider it, but not anything pricier than that. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 01:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

::I have carried the larger key model on my key ring for more than two years now and it shows no wear on the surface or contacts. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that the first of those two USB key links now redirects to the same model as the second, except in silver ''or black'', so I presume the original smaller unit is unavailable, which is probably just as well as it is unlikely to work at all with a keyring next to USB-A cables. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

== Add some of the old products again? ==
Can you add a mouse pad and mug?

How about a poster? they should come with a lower price

== question about languages ==

I bought a [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikipedia-globe-shirts Wikipedia Globe Tee with Wikipedia written in multiple languages] at the WikiMania. Where is there a key to the languages?

Thanks - [[User:Virginia-American|Virginia-American]] ([[User talk:Virginia-American|talk]]) 13:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
: Hey Virginia-American, there is a key at [[:File:Wikipedia_language_shirt_names.png]]. I'm looking into making little cards that we can send out with the shirt so that people have it with them as well :) . [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

== dihydrogen monoxide container ==

Can you comment on the volumetric capacity of the dihydrogen monoxide storage and transportation unit that you sell? I would be interested in any impact tests that have been performed on the aforementioned product.
:Closest image match[http://www.identity-links.com/drinkware/water-bottles/aluminum/28-oz-ecolife-recyclable-aluminum-bottle] says 28 ounces. This should certainly be specified. It is probably also a good idea to note that the mouth of the bottle is wide enough to accommodate ice cubes, as that is exceptional in my experience. [[Special:Contributions/71.212.250.193|71.212.250.193]] 01:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks 71.212, sorry for the delay in responding here. It's actually 24oz (I had to check for some reason I didn't have it written down) but the top is the same size as that one and it is indeed good for icecubes (I use it with ice on my desk most days). I'll add both notes to the product page this evening and maybe tweak it around a bit to add a bit more. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 21:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I haven't done impact tests, but if you knock it against a hard surface (e.g. a rock on a hike) the paint will chip. Apart from the aesthetic problem, it should survive everyday impact situations. (I am sure over time someone will have a Will it blend? video up on the net... :) --[[User:Bdamokos|Bence]] ([[User talk:Bdamokos|talk]]) 18:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

== Translation of the shop ==
{{tracked|37797}}
Hi, the page says that the translation of the shop into more languages is incredibly important, which is true, and it says "I'm having a meeting with some guys from their team in the next couple days and will keep everyone up to date on the progress for this". Did this happen? Is there more information on the progress for this? Is internationalization considered as a required aspect for the shop under the Wikimedia plan/budget? Thanks, [[User:SPQRobin|SPQRobin]] ([[User talk:SPQRobin|talk]]) 14:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

== Note about the water bottle ==

I picked up a water bottle (blue) at Wikimania, and wanted to let James/everyone know that the blue coating flakes off of the bottom. Thus far it hasn't flaked off on parts that are easy to see, but most of the bottom is gone for me now. I don't consider my treatment of the product to be harsh. One of my acquaintances has the same bottle (not Wikipedia branded) and it also flakes, so I think it's a product flaw. [[User:Sven Manguard|Sven Manguard]] ([[User talk:Sven Manguard|talk]]) 06:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks Sven, If you get a chance could you grab a picture and shoot it to me? I've seen it flaking a bit on the bottom as well since Wikimania but they mostly seemed to 'come that way' and not flake much in normal wear. I'd love to have some pictures to show them. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 22:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia merchandise ==

Hi, I'd like to suggest that the Wikimedia shop offer some Wikimedia shirts, for those of us that are not just Wikipedia contributors. Something like a tshirt with the Wikimedia Community logo + Wikimedia written on the front and all the project logos on the back in a circle or something. [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[User talk:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 18:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
:Hey Snowolf, I agree. The lapel pins were a step in that direction but we definitely want to have some apparel and other products for everyone else as well. I'm hoping to have at least a couple new things up for the holidays (and so should be sharing ideas soon). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 02:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

== USPS Priority Mail Int'l reliability ==

Some orders for Europe does not seem to be able to leave California.
I have placed an order for wikipedia merchandise on Sept 20th 2012.
This order is now (November 6th) still on holding in San Francisco.
A second order was sent on Oct 24th and today still on holding in Los Angeles.
:I'm sorry that I didn't see and respond to this earlier, I agree :(. I had no possible idea that the USPS Priority system (which is very efficient within the country) would be so horrible outside. We've taken it completely out as an option for International users (and will not be using it for our flat rate option anymore either). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 10:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Product suggestion: Wikipedia Car Emblems ==

Something I would like to see is a 5 inch (12.7 cm) wide car emblem ([http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=car+emblem see examples of other car emblems]), which generally come with tape backings or magnetic backings for placement on the rear of a vehicle.

Several would be possible (these examples are not exhaustive):
*Wikipedia Globe only
*WikipediA text only
*Wikipedia Globe with WikipediA text

Just some food for thought. [[User:John Shandy`|John Shandy`]] ([[User talk:John Shandy`|talk]]) 20:47, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

== Wikimedia Project Buttons: pack of 12 or 13 ==

[https://shop.wikimedia.org/products/wikimedia-project-buttons] Inconsistency between title and description. --[[User:Tommyang|Tommyang]] ([[User talk:Tommyang|talk]]) 21:44, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

== More merchandise ideas ==

[[EN:User talk:Ldavis_%28WMF%29#Stress_balls.3F]], stress balls and baseball caps. --[[User:Pine|Pine]][[User talk:Pine|✉]] 23:20, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
:Heh, we actually have 'wikipedia contributor' stress balls for the education program I believe. I'd want them a bit more designed for the shop I think but could be a good option :) Baseball caps are another one that have been brought up frequently, my guess is the next two things to look closely at are caps and mugs. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

==Expanding merchandise manufacturing==
Just returned from a family wedding where I was, as per usual, promoting Wikimedia. One of my cousins is into manufacturing and his website is here [http://theringlord.com/cart/]

He likes to make stuff and is interested in looking at designs related to Wikipedia / Wikimedia ( with new laser and 3 D printing equipment having just been installed ). He has agreed to give 100% of the profits from any sales to the WMF. Sales could either take place via his website or via the WMF's website.

He has also agreed to donate 10% of monies raised from sales of his usual merchandise on ebay [http://www.ebay.com/itm/Basic-Chainmail-Jewelry-Kit-Saw-Cut-Bright-Aluminum-/150967403892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23265bc574] Not exactly sure who at the WMF I would need permission from. Is it Asaf? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 04:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
::Anyway he will make up some prototypes and I will post pictures here when he send them to me. He primary makes metal stuff, but is beginning to work with wood and plastic. He would also probably be interested in making other peoples designs. [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 04:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
::: At the moment we've tended to stray away from licensing merchandise for many reasons (that I'm happy to explain more if people want) and so selling elsewhere is likely out of the question for now. However all options are open. I know you've sent Asaf and I an email about it and he explained a bit about the licensing issues but overall I'd want to see some general idea of what we're talking about before we go further. We are certainly going to be looking for more products in the coming year but we're going to need to go, relatively, slow on that since the shop is really very small right now. That means we have to make tougher decisions on 'what goes first' etc but I am more then happy to be have other options to put in front of Myself, Jay and the shop team. As I'm digging out of the email blockade over the next couple days I'll get back to you (I have about 1000 emails a week right now and so the holidays buried me a bit, but I've been working remotely the past 2 days and will be back in the office tomorrow afternoon) [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 23:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
::::Certainly and this is definitely something that the community should weight in on. No one want to tarnish the good name all of us have worked to create. I guess the main question is our we open to offer a similar arrangement we have with "social imprints" to other similar organizations? [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 23:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

== Baseball caps ==

I agree with the two people who said (both recently and quite a while ago) that there should be a cap for sale with the Wikipedia or WIkimedia logo on it. If the cap was well designed, and came in good colors, I believe it would sell well. [[User:Invertzoo|Invertzoo]] ([[User talk:Invertzoo|talk]]) 15:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

:There was one in this page who wanted "old products" back, his examples were mouse pad, mug and poster. But I am quite sure there were also caps for sale at one time. Am I wrong and it was someone else than Wikimedia selling them? [[Special:Contributions/85.217.44.150|85.217.44.150]] 02:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

== Timing ==

I know this has long been in the making, folks have worked very hard to make it happen, Wikipedia's birthday usually is a good reason to celebrate, and it might be just me but I don't feel like appreciating "Happy birthday Wikipedia! 15% off"-banners [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AaronSw&diff=prev&oldid=532911077 right now] :o( --[[User:Jan eissfeldt|Jan eissfeldt]] ([[User talk:Jan eissfeldt|talk]]) 08:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:People of good faith can disagree; in this, I totally understand what you are feeling. While I would hesitate to call myself close I considered him a friend from home (I'm from Boston) and the night when I found out was incredibly rough with no small amount of tears. I considered canceling, but in the end I just didn't think that it was the right thing to do. I think one of the lessons we have to learn is that life must go on. I think we have to celebrate what we've done together - with Aaron's help. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 09:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Colours ==

Is there any simple and not too costly way to get more colour options? I wouldn't want any of the shirts currently available, but if the "I Edit Wikipedia" T-shirt (preferably the box version) was available in a nice green colour (somewhere in the area of forest green, army green or similar), I'd definitely get a couple of 'em. 
I would also suggest offering them in black and in white. Most people would quite like, or consider decent, one and/or the other.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 09:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== "I edit Wikipedia" sticker? ==
The "I edit Wikipedia" banner image is what made me click on the shop link on Wikipedia today, but I can't find anything like it for sale. The banner makes it look like something I can buy. Can I?

I'd love an "I edit Wikipedia" vinyl sticker. It'd look great on my laptop and explain to everyone else in the cafe/library what I'm spending all my time doing there. I'm sure other people would feel the same way. 11:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: Hmm, the sticker idea is an interesting one, I'm experimenting with a new sticker company and needed to make some random sticker ideas :) I'll try to throw this in the test batch and send some your way for free. That image is actually a crop from one of the [http://shop.wikimedia.org/products/i-edit-wikipedia-tee t-shirts we have for sale] (my favorite one in fact). [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 11:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC) On a side note we do actually throw 2 WP Globe stickers into every order... but I don't actually say that anywhere it's just a nice 'surprise' .

::Wow, that would be great! Let me know if you need any help brainstorming some sticker ideas. I think there's a lot you could play with, because Wikipedia has so much of its own language and culture to draw from. I mean, who ''wouldn't'' buy a "Citation needed" sticker? [[User:Popcornduff|Popcornduff]] ([[User talk:Popcornduff|talk]]) 13:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:I second this suggestion. I'd love a couple of "I edit Wikipedia" stickers.--[[User:ZarlanTheGreen|ZarlanTheGreen]] ([[User talk:ZarlanTheGreen|talk]]) 15:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Shop way ==

I would like to pay with cash,I have not credits card,don't use it,How I do? think they should raise small "Wiki store" in some cities and countries [[User:Carliitaeliza|Carliitaeliza]] ([[User talk:Carliitaeliza|talk]]) 12:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
==Calendar==
How difficult could it be to create a low quality PDF showing all the pages from the WLM calendar and link to it? --[[User:Elitre|Elitre]] ([[User talk:Elitre|talk]]) 16:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: It's not necessarily low quality but we did get [[:File:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_calendar_for_2013.pdf|one uploaded recently]]. I'll try to get it linked on the product page as soon as I can too :) [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Lack of shipping information ==

After more than 5 minutes spent trying to find the shipping costs I still can find nothing meaningful, even after adding items to my cart (and no, the "Shipping" on the left column doesn't provide meaningful information). I worry this might discourage people from going on with their order. [[User:Tulpoeid|Tulpoeid]] ([[User talk:Tulpoeid|talk]]) 20:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
: Yeah, I've looked into this before and it was proving to be problematic to supply shipping prices before the final checkout step with the API options available but I just looked into it again and it looks like the software has been updated to a point that I should be able to add this. I'm going to try and get it up today but with the rush of things it may be pushed off a day or two depending on if I hit any speed bumps. [[User:Jalexander|Jalexander]] ([[User talk:Jalexander|talk]]) 20:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== A typo at shipping ==

It is said at [//shop.wikimedia.org/pages/shipping shipping]: "You will receive a shipping conformation". It seems to me that "conf'''o'''rmation" is a typo and must be "conf'''i'''rmation". [[User:Gamliel Fishkin|Gamliel Fishkin]] ([[User talk:Gamliel Fishkin|talk]]) 00:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

==Wikipedia on a disc of metal==
[[File:Rsz img 0070.jpg|thumb|Wikipedia discs]]
Here are some discs my cousin made. He is looking for more ideas if anyone has any. Example of other stuff he makes is here [http://theringlord.com/cart/] [[User:Jmh649|'''Doc James''']] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) 09:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

== "You are browsing our secure server" bar at the very top of the page ==

I'm guessing the intention is to flag to the customer's attention that they've entered a secure area, which is fine with me.

I'm not comfortable giving the customer assurances that they're looking at a secure server, though. That's what the address bar is for, and we need to educate people to use and trust that and the certificate, and not introduce other (spoofable) indicators.

<gallery widths="300px" heights="165px">File:You are browsing our secure server.jpg|Screenshot of a shop.wikimedia.org page, showing the yellowish bar at the top containing the words "You are browsing our secure server"</gallery>

My concern, in brief, is that such a message adds no assurance of actual security, and a phishing website could just as easily display such a message. If I'm no web designer, but I've seen a lot of webpages; I suspect that if someone were to impersonate the Wikimedia Shop, they could easily incorporate an identical-looking bar at the top of their page.

'''My point:''' I suggest that we replace this by an indication that it '''''should''''' be secure, and how to check whether it is.

(How to check? Probably by checking whether the address bar starts with ''<nowiki>https://shop.wikimedia.org</nowiki>''--on Windows, this goes for Chrome, FF, IE9 (didn't check the others), and (I think) Safari, but not Opera.)

[[User:Mathieu ottawa|Mathieu ottawa]] ([[User talk:Mathieu ottawa|talk]]) 19:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC) (edited by the same on 20:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC) to inline the image for aesthetics and clarity, since the previous section also has an image, plus tweaks to the text)

== Wikimedia project accessories lack new projects: Wikidata and Wikivoyage ==

Just a suggestion to add [[data:|Wikidata]] and [[voy:|Wikivoyage]] to the options of buttons, lapel pins and stickers when possible, so that the shop isn't biased against these great two projects. Already Wikivoyage is burgeoning ahead as one of the WMF's more successful and popular wikis! In the long-run, I think some Wikivoyage merchandise that could be used while travelling would be fantastic. I don't think our community would have an issue with actively "advertising" the shop in our wiki's sidebar if there was Wikivoyage merchandise. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 12:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Wikimedia merchandise

2013-02-25T11:52:21Z

JamesA: /* Shop Advisory Committee */ +me

Foundation wiki feedback

2013-02-25T08:19:54Z

JamesA: /* wikimediafoundation.org */

{{/Header}} __TOC__

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

This is a suggestion for (adding) a hyper-link to the web page [[Terms of Use]] -- that is, I mean http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use .

I noticed that, in section "7", there ("Licensing_of_Content") [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#7._Licensing_of_Content ], in sub-section "g", "Re-use:", the first sentence
mentions "content contributed under "fair use" or similar exemptions under copyright law.". That part contains the quoted phrase "fair use".

My suggestion is that the quoted phrase "fair use" there, should be (or 'have') a [[w:hyper-link]] to the English Wikipedia article [[w:Fair use|Fair use]] -- that is, to the web page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use .

I almost started to "edit" the page myself (by force of habit!) before I realized that it does not work like a typical Wikipedia article page -- (hence this [feedback] "comment").

-- [[w:User:Mike_Schwartz]] ([[w:User_talk:Mike_Schwartz|talk]])

...also known as

[[User:Mike Schwartz|Mike Schwartz]] ([[User talk:Mike Schwartz|talk]]) 00:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
:I would do this, but the lawyers are particular. I've alerted the lawyers and they will change it if they see fit. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 17:14, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Jobvite typo ==

The jobs page has a typo (VIsual Designer instead of Visual Designer). It is at this URL: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings

[[Special:Contributions/70.187.35.43|70.187.35.43]] 00:13, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
:[https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Jobvite&curid=21159&diff=87080&oldid=87076 Fixed]. Thank you! [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 02:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:DMCA Planet.eco|DMCA Planet.eco]] ==

[[wmf:Category:DMCA 2013]] should be created with the following content. For copyright attribution purposes, the text (updated) originates at [[wmf:Category:DMCA 2012]]. – ''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]'' [[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]] 12:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

<code><nowiki>
This category is the home of takedown demands under the [[w:Digital Millennium Copyright Act|Digital Millennium Copyright Act]] that were received by the Wikimedia Foundation in calendar year 2013.

If your contribution was the subject of a takedown demand under the DMCA and you believe that your contribution did not violate copyright law, you may wish to file a counter-notification. More information on filing a counter-notification can be found [[m:Office_actions#DMCA_compliance|here]].
[[Category:DMCA]]
</nowiki></code>
:{{Done}} by [https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Category:DMCA_2013&oldid=87165 Mdennis]. [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 13:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Our projects|Our projects]] ==

Consider adding Wikivoyage to [[wmf:Our projects]]. [[b:pt:User:Helder.wiki|Helder]] 16:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

: Done[{{fullurl:foundation:Our_projects|diff=prev&oldid=87291}}][{{fullurl:foundation:Template:Logo|diff=prev&oldid=87290}}][{{fullurl:foundation:Template:Project_navigation|diff=prev&oldid=87292}}]. Thank you for your suggestion! [[User:AGK|'''AGK''']] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 00:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
::What about Wikidata? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 05:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[Terms of use/cs]] updated and ready ==
Could somebody please publish the updated (a missing word added) [[Terms of use/cs]] to [[foundation:Terms of use/cs]]? (And, possibly, check the wikisyntax, as the current version has broken formatting of the list in section ''7. Licencování obsahu''.) (I am not sure if there is an automated process working somewhere, or I need to make a request somewhere.) Thanks. --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] [[:cs:Wikipedista:Mormegil|(cs)]] 22:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
:It's updated. Thank you. I would love it if we had some system that would notify somebody (even me!) when translations are updated, but unfortunately I don't think we have that function yet. :/ Making a request here is probably your best call at this point. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::Watchlist and enable email on watchlist in prefs? [[User:Hello71|Hello71]] ([[User talk:Hello71|talk]]) 21:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

I wonder if disallowing Commercial use for images; eg: CC-BY-NC-SA would encourage more professional photographers to put up their work, especially hi-res images. I'm a contributor and I'll continue to be here, but I'd feel a lot better if Wikimedia encouraged those making commercial use, to share their earnings with the original artists. It makes free art sustainable for folks like me and generally creates an environment of goodwill amongst artists and commercial publishers.

[[User:Sumeetmoghe|Sumeetmoghe]] ([[User talk:Sumeetmoghe|talk]]) 06:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
: Hi Sumeetmoghe, I used to think the same thing -- in fact, I wrote a [https://wikiprojectoregon.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/crafting-a-more-nuanced-approach-to-image-licensing/ blog post about it] a while back that sparked some really interesting discussion. (The comments from Greg Maxwell and Peter Tillman are particularly illuminating.)

: The biggest problem with the "NC" provision, in my view, is that it defeats the main value of a general license: establishing clear intent. There are so many ways the word "commercial" can be interpreted that, in practice, a would-be reuser of an "NC"-tagged photo often has to check with the photographer to determine whether or not the use is considered commercial…in which case, why even bother with a general license to begin with? One of the main purposes of using these licenses is to reduce the kind of friction that can bog down a collaborative project.

: That part is just my opinion, I suppose. You can see the WMF's board-approved policy here: [[foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy]] You also might be interested in this reflection on the "NC" provision: [http://freedomdefined.org/NC freedomdefined.org/NC] Hope this helps! -[[User:Peteforsyth|Pete F]] ([[User talk:Peteforsyth|talk]]) 20:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Terms of Use/es|Terms of Use/es]] ==

Hello. In Wikimedia Foundation: ''Términos y condiciones de uso'' & ''View source for Terms of Use/es'' [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use/es here] and [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Terms_of_Use/es&action=edit here] the Creative Commons licenses says: «Licencia Creative Commons Attribution-Compartir Igual 3.0 Sin Portar». It should be: «Licencia Creative Commons Atribución-CompartirIgual 3.0 Unported». Check it in: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/?lang=es. Thanks. --[[User:Gusama Romero|Gusama Romero]] ([[User talk:Gusama Romero|talk]]) 09:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
:Thank you. It's been corrected. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you very much, but don't forget translates: ''Attribution'' to ''Atribución''. --[[User:Gusama Romero|Gusama Romero]] ([[User talk:Gusama Romero|talk]]) 21:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::: Hecho. Muchas gracias. Un saludo, -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 22:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Our projects|Our projects]] ==

Consider adding Wikidata to [[wmf:Our projects]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:I tried posting in the identically titled section above, but my comment was ignored. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
{{done}} [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Our_projects&diff=prev&oldid=87468] [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Project_navigation&diff=prev&oldid=87469] Thanks for your suggestion. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:Danke! [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 20:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

== wikimediafoundation.org ==

Consider adding WikiData and WikiVoyage to your homepage in a new row in the section "Projects of the Wikimedia Foundation."
[[User:Macadamia1472|Macadamia1472]] ([[User talk:Macadamia1472|talk]]) 08:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
:I have added both projects to a new template. The [[Translation_requests/WMF/OurProjects2012|translation request]] is open. Regards, [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 11:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
::Hi Vogone, I've been managing translations this year for a number of different pages on Meta and we've opted to no longer use that old system and instead use the [[mw:Extension:Translation|Translate extension]]. I've not been able to get around to re-doing translations for Foundation wiki, but would you like to help out in organising these translations using that interface instead of the older one? [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 19:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
:::+1 on THO's suggestion. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Home|Home]] ==

I just got Email from Wikipedia <donate@wikimedia.org> to my PayPal Email! I don't like that at all. I B<DO NOT> want wiki poking around my personal Email addresses, etc. Just because I used PayPal to donate B<DOES NOT> mean that I have given permission for wiki to I<scrape> or I<save> the B<PayPal Login ID> that I used. If this ever happens again, that's the end to my donations.

[[Special:Contributions/76.220.215.56|76.220.215.56]] 19:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

: Hi there, I apologize if this upset you in any way. When making a donation, we generally ask for name, address, and email, depending on your chosen payment method. We use this information to send a tax receipt/donation confirmation as well as update you on any fundraising-related activities. Generally we send 2-3 emails per calendar year. As stated in our [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donor_policy donor privacy policy], we don't rent, sell, trade, or share this information. We also offer an opt-out option at the bottom of all email messages, and I'd invite you to take advantage of this. If you have any other fundraising questions, the team can be reached at donate@wikimedia.org. Thank you again for your continuing support! Best, [[User:Jvandavier|Jvandavier]] ([[User talk:Jvandavier|talk]]) 23:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

Accept Bitcoin donations. It is easy.

Many will donate, including me.

[[Special:Contributions/72.235.248.53|72.235.248.53]] 01:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

: Hi. Have you read [[wmf:Answers archive/November 2011#Finance: Why does the Wikimedia Foundation not currently accept Bitcoin?]]? Perhaps this question/answer is worth an entry in the [[wmf:FAQ|FAQ]] page. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Talk:FAQ/en|Talk:FAQ/en]] ==

I can't add changes to the FAQ on donations, how come ?

Anyway, if someone reads, I don't see any info regarding detailed expenses and where the offices of wikipedia are held. 40+ million dollars on the whole of wikipedia with 20% spent on 140 employees sounds like a lot of money being spent on them. Seriously now, what's up with that ? I also have not seen anything related to remote work. Most wikipedia "jobs" could be remote jobs like UI Designer, software engineers, community advocate. Or does wikipedia not know how to hire the best people for the lowest costs ?


[[Special:Contributions/188.25.63.127|188.25.63.127]] 23:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
:But if you think of that, 20% of $40 million = $8 million. That divided by 140 employees averages to about $57k - I would consider that reasonable. I know nothing about remote work's ''extent'' but I know that at least some system administrators do so.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]) 02:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for your comments. The Wikimedia Foundation website at wikimediafoundation.org is locked to public editing because of security concerns. You can suggest specific changes on this page. The Wikimedia Foundation offices are located in San Francisco, California, United States (more location info is [[wmf:Contact us|here]]). The Foundation does hire contractors and remote employees, although for the purpose of collaboration, it is simplest to maintain a workforce in one central location. In the United States, San Francisco is a popular location for technology-related industry and the Wikimedia Foundation pays its employees competitive wages. You may be interested in reading this rather extensive [[Wikimedia_Forum/Archives/2013-01#Wikimedia_employee_salaries|community discussion]] on that subject. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 02:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

== WMF BoT pages ==

[[wmf:User:Mhalprin|User:Mhalprin]] is out of date. It should indicate that he is no longer a board member per [[wmf:Former Board of Trustees members]].

Could we add a link at the beginning of [[wmf:Board of Trustees#Bishakha Datta]] to [[en:Bishakha Datta]] or [[User:Bishdatta]] or [[wmf:User:Bishdatta]], as all other entries start with a link to either a ''user'' or ''wikipedia'' page.

Also could we add the username of Arne Klempert to [[wmf:Former_Board_of_Trustees_members#Arne_Klempert]] for the sake of consistency and transparency (and perhaps not link to his personal portal website as the first link).
--[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 01:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
: Unblocked/restored your account. :-) Please create a user page when you get a chance. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:: That's one way to do it. All done, and more. Thank you. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 02:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

== wikimediafoundation.org ==

Hell, My name is Francis Kaswahili a coordinator of the wikimania 2014 bids am sorry to report to you that our bid was changed without our permission
and this was done yesterday the reason known by the changers but I think this was done for the benefit of our competitor because of reality that this is the term of Southern Africans countries to host the 2014 regarding that must be decided by the jury's this has been done after railroading the information about the conference, am sorry to say this Wikimedia is there all. need your support on this Fkaswahili@gmail.com

[[Special:Contributions/41.59.48.214|41.59.48.214]] 10:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)



== wikimediafoundation.org ==

There is an error over at [[foundation:Ways_to_Give/en]]. The "Legacy gift" link at the top of the page does not work, due to a capitalisation error. I don't have an account here, or else I would've fixed it myself. This is my usual WMF account, so would it be worth requesting an account there? Thanks.


[[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Foundation wiki feedback

2013-02-25T08:18:16Z

JamesA: /* wikimediafoundation.org */ new section

{{/Header}} __TOC__

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

This is a suggestion for (adding) a hyper-link to the web page [[Terms of Use]] -- that is, I mean http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use .

I noticed that, in section "7", there ("Licensing_of_Content") [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#7._Licensing_of_Content ], in sub-section "g", "Re-use:", the first sentence
mentions "content contributed under "fair use" or similar exemptions under copyright law.". That part contains the quoted phrase "fair use".

My suggestion is that the quoted phrase "fair use" there, should be (or 'have') a [[w:hyper-link]] to the English Wikipedia article [[w:Fair use|Fair use]] -- that is, to the web page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use .

I almost started to "edit" the page myself (by force of habit!) before I realized that it does not work like a typical Wikipedia article page -- (hence this [feedback] "comment").

-- [[w:User:Mike_Schwartz]] ([[w:User_talk:Mike_Schwartz|talk]])

...also known as

[[User:Mike Schwartz|Mike Schwartz]] ([[User talk:Mike Schwartz|talk]]) 00:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
:I would do this, but the lawyers are particular. I've alerted the lawyers and they will change it if they see fit. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 17:14, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

== Jobvite typo ==

The jobs page has a typo (VIsual Designer instead of Visual Designer). It is at this URL: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings

[[Special:Contributions/70.187.35.43|70.187.35.43]] 00:13, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
:[https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Jobvite&curid=21159&diff=87080&oldid=87076 Fixed]. Thank you! [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 02:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:DMCA Planet.eco|DMCA Planet.eco]] ==

[[wmf:Category:DMCA 2013]] should be created with the following content. For copyright attribution purposes, the text (updated) originates at [[wmf:Category:DMCA 2012]]. – ''[[User:Philosopher|Philosopher]]'' [[User talk:Philosopher|Let us reason together.]] 12:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

<code><nowiki>
This category is the home of takedown demands under the [[w:Digital Millennium Copyright Act|Digital Millennium Copyright Act]] that were received by the Wikimedia Foundation in calendar year 2013.

If your contribution was the subject of a takedown demand under the DMCA and you believe that your contribution did not violate copyright law, you may wish to file a counter-notification. More information on filing a counter-notification can be found [[m:Office_actions#DMCA_compliance|here]].
[[Category:DMCA]]
</nowiki></code>
:{{Done}} by [https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Category:DMCA_2013&oldid=87165 Mdennis]. [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 13:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Our projects|Our projects]] ==

Consider adding Wikivoyage to [[wmf:Our projects]]. [[b:pt:User:Helder.wiki|Helder]] 16:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

: Done[{{fullurl:foundation:Our_projects|diff=prev&oldid=87291}}][{{fullurl:foundation:Template:Logo|diff=prev&oldid=87290}}][{{fullurl:foundation:Template:Project_navigation|diff=prev&oldid=87292}}]. Thank you for your suggestion! [[User:AGK|'''AGK''']] [[User talk:AGK#top|[•]]] 00:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
::What about Wikidata? [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 05:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[Terms of use/cs]] updated and ready ==
Could somebody please publish the updated (a missing word added) [[Terms of use/cs]] to [[foundation:Terms of use/cs]]? (And, possibly, check the wikisyntax, as the current version has broken formatting of the list in section ''7. Licencování obsahu''.) (I am not sure if there is an automated process working somewhere, or I need to make a request somewhere.) Thanks. --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] [[:cs:Wikipedista:Mormegil|(cs)]] 22:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
:It's updated. Thank you. I would love it if we had some system that would notify somebody (even me!) when translations are updated, but unfortunately I don't think we have that function yet. :/ Making a request here is probably your best call at this point. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::Watchlist and enable email on watchlist in prefs? [[User:Hello71|Hello71]] ([[User talk:Hello71|talk]]) 21:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

I wonder if disallowing Commercial use for images; eg: CC-BY-NC-SA would encourage more professional photographers to put up their work, especially hi-res images. I'm a contributor and I'll continue to be here, but I'd feel a lot better if Wikimedia encouraged those making commercial use, to share their earnings with the original artists. It makes free art sustainable for folks like me and generally creates an environment of goodwill amongst artists and commercial publishers.

[[User:Sumeetmoghe|Sumeetmoghe]] ([[User talk:Sumeetmoghe|talk]]) 06:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
: Hi Sumeetmoghe, I used to think the same thing -- in fact, I wrote a [https://wikiprojectoregon.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/crafting-a-more-nuanced-approach-to-image-licensing/ blog post about it] a while back that sparked some really interesting discussion. (The comments from Greg Maxwell and Peter Tillman are particularly illuminating.)

: The biggest problem with the "NC" provision, in my view, is that it defeats the main value of a general license: establishing clear intent. There are so many ways the word "commercial" can be interpreted that, in practice, a would-be reuser of an "NC"-tagged photo often has to check with the photographer to determine whether or not the use is considered commercial…in which case, why even bother with a general license to begin with? One of the main purposes of using these licenses is to reduce the kind of friction that can bog down a collaborative project.

: That part is just my opinion, I suppose. You can see the WMF's board-approved policy here: [[foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy]] You also might be interested in this reflection on the "NC" provision: [http://freedomdefined.org/NC freedomdefined.org/NC] Hope this helps! -[[User:Peteforsyth|Pete F]] ([[User talk:Peteforsyth|talk]]) 20:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Terms of Use/es|Terms of Use/es]] ==

Hello. In Wikimedia Foundation: ''Términos y condiciones de uso'' & ''View source for Terms of Use/es'' [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use/es here] and [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Terms_of_Use/es&action=edit here] the Creative Commons licenses says: «Licencia Creative Commons Attribution-Compartir Igual 3.0 Sin Portar». It should be: «Licencia Creative Commons Atribución-CompartirIgual 3.0 Unported». Check it in: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/?lang=es. Thanks. --[[User:Gusama Romero|Gusama Romero]] ([[User talk:Gusama Romero|talk]]) 09:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
:Thank you. It's been corrected. :) --[[User:Mdennis (WMF)|Maggie Dennis (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Mdennis (WMF)|talk]]) 15:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::Thank you very much, but don't forget translates: ''Attribution'' to ''Atribución''. --[[User:Gusama Romero|Gusama Romero]] ([[User talk:Gusama Romero|talk]]) 21:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
::: Hecho. Muchas gracias. Un saludo, -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 22:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Our projects|Our projects]] ==

Consider adding Wikidata to [[wmf:Our projects]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:I tried posting in the identically titled section above, but my comment was ignored. [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 19:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
{{done}} [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Our_projects&diff=prev&oldid=87468] [http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Project_navigation&diff=prev&oldid=87469] Thanks for your suggestion. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
:Danke! [[User:PiRSquared17|πr2]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|''t'']] • [[Special:Contributions/PiRSquared17|''c'']]) 20:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

== wikimediafoundation.org ==

Consider adding WikiData and WikiVoyage to your homepage in a new row in the section "Projects of the Wikimedia Foundation."
[[User:Macadamia1472|Macadamia1472]] ([[User talk:Macadamia1472|talk]]) 08:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
:I have added both projects to a new template. The [[Translation_requests/WMF/OurProjects2012|translation request]] is open. Regards, [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 11:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
::Hi Vogone, I've been managing translations this year for a number of different pages on Meta and we've opted to no longer use that old system and instead use the [[mw:Extension:Translation|Translate extension]]. I've not been able to get around to re-doing translations for Foundation wiki, but would you like to help out in organising these translations using that interface instead of the older one? [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 19:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
:::+1 on THO's suggestion. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 21:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Home|Home]] ==

I just got Email from Wikipedia <donate@wikimedia.org> to my PayPal Email! I don't like that at all. I B<DO NOT> want wiki poking around my personal Email addresses, etc. Just because I used PayPal to donate B<DOES NOT> mean that I have given permission for wiki to I<scrape> or I<save> the B<PayPal Login ID> that I used. If this ever happens again, that's the end to my donations.

[[Special:Contributions/76.220.215.56|76.220.215.56]] 19:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

: Hi there, I apologize if this upset you in any way. When making a donation, we generally ask for name, address, and email, depending on your chosen payment method. We use this information to send a tax receipt/donation confirmation as well as update you on any fundraising-related activities. Generally we send 2-3 emails per calendar year. As stated in our [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donor_policy donor privacy policy], we don't rent, sell, trade, or share this information. We also offer an opt-out option at the bottom of all email messages, and I'd invite you to take advantage of this. If you have any other fundraising questions, the team can be reached at donate@wikimedia.org. Thank you again for your continuing support! Best, [[User:Jvandavier|Jvandavier]] ([[User talk:Jvandavier|talk]]) 23:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Template:Contribute|Template:Contribute]] ==

Accept Bitcoin donations. It is easy.

Many will donate, including me.

[[Special:Contributions/72.235.248.53|72.235.248.53]] 01:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

: Hi. Have you read [[wmf:Answers archive/November 2011#Finance: Why does the Wikimedia Foundation not currently accept Bitcoin?]]? Perhaps this question/answer is worth an entry in the [[wmf:FAQ|FAQ]] page. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[wmf:Talk:FAQ/en|Talk:FAQ/en]] ==

I can't add changes to the FAQ on donations, how come ?

Anyway, if someone reads, I don't see any info regarding detailed expenses and where the offices of wikipedia are held. 40+ million dollars on the whole of wikipedia with 20% spent on 140 employees sounds like a lot of money being spent on them. Seriously now, what's up with that ? I also have not seen anything related to remote work. Most wikipedia "jobs" could be remote jobs like UI Designer, software engineers, community advocate. Or does wikipedia not know how to hire the best people for the lowest costs ?


[[Special:Contributions/188.25.63.127|188.25.63.127]] 23:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
:But if you think of that, 20% of $40 million = $8 million. That divided by 140 employees averages to about $57k - I would consider that reasonable. I know nothing about remote work's ''extent'' but I know that at least some system administrators do so.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]) 02:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for your comments. The Wikimedia Foundation website at wikimediafoundation.org is locked to public editing because of security concerns. You can suggest specific changes on this page. The Wikimedia Foundation offices are located in San Francisco, California, United States (more location info is [[wmf:Contact us|here]]). The Foundation does hire contractors and remote employees, although for the purpose of collaboration, it is simplest to maintain a workforce in one central location. In the United States, San Francisco is a popular location for technology-related industry and the Wikimedia Foundation pays its employees competitive wages. You may be interested in reading this rather extensive [[Wikimedia_Forum/Archives/2013-01#Wikimedia_employee_salaries|community discussion]] on that subject. [[User:Mono|<big> '''ℳ'''</big>ono ]] 02:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

== WMF BoT pages ==

[[wmf:User:Mhalprin|User:Mhalprin]] is out of date. It should indicate that he is no longer a board member per [[wmf:Former Board of Trustees members]].

Could we add a link at the beginning of [[wmf:Board of Trustees#Bishakha Datta]] to [[en:Bishakha Datta]] or [[User:Bishdatta]] or [[wmf:User:Bishdatta]], as all other entries start with a link to either a ''user'' or ''wikipedia'' page.

Also could we add the username of Arne Klempert to [[wmf:Former_Board_of_Trustees_members#Arne_Klempert]] for the sake of consistency and transparency (and perhaps not link to his personal portal website as the first link).
--[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 01:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
: Unblocked/restored your account. :-) Please create a user page when you get a chance. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

:: That's one way to do it. All done, and more. Thank you. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 02:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

== wikimediafoundation.org ==

Hell, My name is Francis Kaswahili a coordinator of the wikimania 2014 bids am sorry to report to you that our bid was changed without our permission
and this was done yesterday the reason known by the changers but I think this was done for the benefit of our competitor because of reality that this is the term of Southern Africans countries to host the 2014 regarding that must be decided by the jury's this has been done after railroading the information about the conference, am sorry to say this Wikimedia is there all. need your support on this Fkaswahili@gmail.com

[[Special:Contributions/41.59.48.214|41.59.48.214]] 10:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)



== wikimediafoundation.org ==

There is an error over at [[Ways_to_Give/en]]. The "Legacy gift" link at the top of the page does not work, due to a capitalisation error. I don't have an account here, or else I would've fixed it myself. My usual WMF account is [[meta:User:JamesA]]. Thanks. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


[[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Jeremyb

2013-02-25T06:35:18Z

JamesA: /* Re:claiming/verifying domains for Alexa, etc. */ new section

==Welcome to Meta!==
<div class="multilingual">
<div dir="rtl" class="lang-ar" lang="ar">
أهلا {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}} ، ومرحبا بك في '''ويكيميديا [[Meta-Wiki|ميتا ويكي]]'''! يعمل هذا الموقع على تنسيق ومناقشة كل [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|مشاريع ويكيميديا]]. ربما سيكون مفيدا لك مطالعة [[Meta:Policy|صفحة السياسات هنا]]. إذا كنت مهتما بأمور الترجمة، راجع [[Meta:Babylon|ميتا:بابلون]]. يمكنك أيضا ترك ملاحظة في [[Meta:Babel|ميتا:بابل]] (من فضلك راجع أولا التعليمات هناك قبل ترك الملاحظة). إذا أردت الاستفسار عن شئ ، لا تتردد في سؤالي في صفحة [[talk page|نقاشي]]. تمتع بالتحرير هنا!
</div>

<div class="lang-ca" lang="ca">
Hola {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}! Benvingut a la '''[[Meta:Quant_a/Ca|Meta-Wiki]] de la Fundació Wikimedia'''! Aquest lloc està fet per a coordinar i discutir tots els '''[[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projectes de la Fundació Wikimedia]]'''. Potser us serà útil llegir la nostra [[Meta:Policy|pàgina de polítiques]] (en [[:ca:Anglès|anglès]]). Si us interessen les traduccions, visiteu [[Meta:Babylon]]. També podeu deixar un missatge a [[Meta:Babel]] o al [[Meta:Metapub]] (però abans de fer-ho, llegiu les instruccions situades al principi de la pàgina). No dubteu en preguntar si teniu qualsevol dubte. Si cal ho podeu fer en la meva [[talk page|pàgina de discussió]]. Bona sort!
</div>

<div class="lang-cs" lang="cs">
Vítejte, uživateli {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, a vítejte na '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Tento server je určen pro spolupráci a diskusím ke všem [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projektům nadace Wikimedia]]. Možná si budete chtít přečíst naše [[Meta:Policy|pravidla]]. Pokud chcete spolupracovat na překladech, navštivte [[Meta:Babylon]]. Také můžete přidat příspěvek na [[Meta:Babel]] či [[Meta:Metapub]] (nejdříve si přečtěte pokyny na začátku těchto stránek). V případě potřeby se neváhejte zeptat se na mé [[talk page|diskusní stránce]]. Hodně štěstí!
</div>

<div class="lang-de" lang="de">
Hallo, {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, und Willkommen bei '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Diese Website ist zur Koordination und Diskussion aller [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedia-Projekte]] gedacht. Vielleicht findest du es nützlich, unsere [[Meta:Policy|Regelseite]] zu lesen. Wenn du daran interessiert bist, etwas zu übersetzen, besuche [[Meta:Babylon]]. Du kannst auch eine Notiz auf [[Meta:Babel]] oder [[Meta:Metapub]] hinterlassen (bitte lies die Anleitung am Anfang der Seite, bevor du etwas schreibst). Wenn du möchtest, kannst du mir auf meiner [[talk page|Diskussionseite]] Fragen stellen. Fröhliches Bearbeiten.
</div>

<div class="lang-dv" lang="dv">
<div dir=rtl>
'''ވިކިމީޑިޔާގެ [[Meta-Wiki|މީޓާ-ވިކީ]]''' އަށް މަރުހަބާ! މިވެބްސައިޓަކީ ވިކިމީޑިޔާގެ ހުރިހާ [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|މަޝްރޫޢުތަކާއި]] ބެހޭގޮތުން ވާހަކަތައް ދެކެވި އެ މަޝްރޫޢެއް ހިންގައި ހަދާ ވެބް ސައިޓެވެ. އަޅުގަނޑުމެންގެ [[Meta:Policy|ޤަވާއިދު]]ތައް ފުރަތަމަ ވިދާޅުވުމަކީ މުހިންމު ކަމެއް ކަމުގައި ދެކެމެވެ. ތަރުޖަމާކުރާ ހިތްޕުޅުވެވަޑައިގަންނަވާ ނަމަ [[Meta:Babylon|މީޓާ:ބެބިލޯން]] އަށް ވަޑައިގަންނަވާށެވެ. އަދި ހަމަ އެހެންމެ މިކަމާއި ބެހޭ ލިޔުމެއް [[Meta:Babel|މީޓާ:ބޭބެލް]] ގައި ލިޔުއްވަވާށެވެ. (އެހެންނަމަވެސް އެޞަފްޙާގައި އެއްވެސް އެއްޗެއް އިތުރު ކުރެއްވުމުގެ ކުރިން އެ ޞަފްހާގެ މަތީގައިވާ ޢިބާރާތް ވިދާޅުވެލައްވާށެވެ.) މިއާއި މުދު ހިތްހަމަޖެހިވަޑައިގަންނަވާ ނަމަ އިތުރު އެހީ އަށް އެދުމަށް [[talk page|މި ޞަފްހާ]] ގައި އެދުމަށް ފަސްޖެހި ވަޑައި ނުގަންނަވާށެވެ. އުނިއިތުރު ގެނައުމުގައި އުފާވެރި ވަގުތުކޮޅެއް ހޭދަ ކޮށްލައްވާށެވެ!!
</div dir=rtl>
</div>

<div class="lang-en" lang="en">
Hello {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! This website is for coordinating and discussing all [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedia projects]]. You may find it useful to read our [[Meta:Policy|policy page]]. If you are interested in doing translations, visit [[Meta:Babylon]]. You can also leave a note on [[Meta:Babel]] or [[Meta:Metapub]] (please read the instructions at the top of the page before posting there). If you would like, feel free to ask me questions on my [[talk page]]. Happy editing!
</div>

<div class="lang-es" lang="es">
Hola {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}! Bienvenido a la '''[[Meta-Wiki]] de la Fundación Wikimedia'''! Este sitio es para coordinar y discutir todos los '''[[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|proyectos de la Fundación Wikimedia]]'''. Tal vez le sea útil leer nuestra [[Meta:Policy|página de políticas]] (en [[w:English language|inglés]]). Si le interesan las traducciones, visite [[Meta:Babylon]]. También puede dejar un mensaje en [[Meta:Babel]] o [[Meta:Metapub]] (pero antes de hacerlo, por favor lea las instrucciones situadas en lo alto de la página). No dude en preguntar si tiene cualquiera duda, o pregunte en mi [[talk page|página de discusión]]. Buena suerte!
</div>

<div class="lang-fi" lang="fi">
Hei {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, ja tervetuloa '''Wikimedian [[Meta-Wiki]]in'''! Tämä nettisivusto on kaikkien [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedia-säätiön projektien]] koordinointia ja keskustelua varten. Saattaa olla hyödyllistä lukea [[Meta:Policy|käytäntömme]]. Jos olet kiinnostunut käännöksistä, käy [[Meta:Babylon]]-sivulla. Voit myöskin jättää huomautuksen [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] -sivulle (ole hyvä ja lue ohjeet sivun yläosassa ennenkuin kirjoitat sinne). Jos haluat, saat vapaasti kysyä minulta kysymyksiä [[talk page|keskustelusivullani]]. Iloisia muokkaushetkiä!
</div>

<div class="lang-fr" lang="fr">
Bonjour {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, et bienvenue sur le '''[[Meta-Wiki]] de Wikimédia''' ! Ce site a pour but de coordonner et discuter de l’ensemble des [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projets Wikimédia]]. Il vous sera utile de consulter notre [[Meta:Policy|page sur les règles de Wikimédia]]. Si vous êtes intéressé par des projets de traduction, visitez [[Meta:Babylon]].
Vous pouvez aussi laisser un message sur [[Meta:Babel]] ou [[Meta:Metapub]] (mais veuillez d’abord lire les instructions en haut de cette page avant d’y poster votre message). Si vous le voulez, vous pouvez me poser vos questions sur ma [[talk page|page de discussion]]. À bientôt !
</div>

<div dir="rtl" class="lang-he" lang="he">
נכתב בלשון זכר למען הנוחות 
היי {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, וברוך בואך ל- '''ויקימדיה [[Meta-Wiki|מטא-ויקי]]'''! אתר זה נועד בכדי לתאם פעולות ולדון [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|בפרויקטים של וויקימדיה]]. יש להניח ש[[Meta:Policy|דפי המדיניות]] שלנו יהיו שימושיים עבורך. אם הנך מעוניין לבצע עבודות תרגום, בקר ב-[[Meta:Babylon]]. תוכל גם להשאיר הערה ב-[[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]], (אנא קרא את ההוראות בראש הדף לפני כתיבה שם). אם תרצה, הרגש חופשי לרשום לי שאלות ב[[talk page|דף השיחה]] שלי. עריכה נעימה!
</div>

<div class="lang-hu" lang="hu">
Helló {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, és üdv a '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]jén'''! Ez a weboldal az [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|összes Wikimedia projektet]] érintő ügyek megtárgyalására és koordinálására szolgál. Hasznosnak találhatod elolvasni az [[Meta:Policy|irányelveinket]] (angolul). Ha szeretnél fordításokat végezni, látogasd meg a [[Meta:Babylon]]-t, vagy a [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]], oldalon hagyhatsz üzenetet (mielőtt ide írsz kérlek olvasd el a lap tetején található utasításokat). Ha szeretnél, nyugodtan kérdezz tőlem a [[talk page|vitalapomon]]. Jó szerkesztést és tartalmas szórakozást! Jó szerkesztést és tartalmas szórakozást!
</div>

<div class="lang-it" lang="it">
Ciao {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}! Benvenuto sulla '''[[Meta-Wiki]] della Wikimedia Foundation'''! Questo sito serve a coordinare e discutere di tutti i [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|progetti della Wikimedia Foundation]]. Potrebbe esserti utile leggere le [[Meta:Policy|nostre policy]] (in [[it:Lingua inglese|inglese]]). Se sei interessato a fare traduzioni, visita [[Meta:Babylon]].
Puoi anche lasciare un messaggio su [[Meta:Babel]] o [[Meta:Metapub]] (ma per favore, leggi le istruzioni che si trovano all'inizio della pagina prima di scrivere). Se vuoi, puoi lasciarmi un messagio nella mia [[talk page|pagina di discussione]]. Buona fortuna!
</div>

<div class="lang-ja" lang="ja">
{{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}さん、'''ウィキメディア [[Meta-Wiki|メタ・ウィキ]]'''へようこそ！このサイトは、[[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|ウィキメディアのプロジェクト]]間の調整や話し合いを目的としています。もしよろしければ、[[Meta:Policy|ポリシーページ]]を是非ご一読下さい。もし翻訳に興味をお持ちなら、[[Meta:Babylon]]をご覧下さい。[[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] にメッセージを投稿していただくことも可能です（投稿前にページ上部の説明をお読み下さい）。もしよろしければ私の[[talk page|ノートページ]]に質問をお寄せ下さい。
</div>

<div class="lang-ko" lang="ko">
{{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}님, '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''에 회원가입하신 것을 환영합니다! 이 사이트는 모든 [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|위키미디어 프로젝트]]들 간의 상호조정(coordinate)과 토론을 위한 공간입니다. 우리의 [[Meta:Policy|정책]]을 보면, 도움이 되실 겁니다. 만약 번역에 관심이 있으시다면, [[Meta:Babylon]]을 방문해 보세요. 또한 [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] 을 사용하실 수도 있습니다. (사용하시기 전에 바벨의 사용설명란을 먼저 읽어주세요). 만약 궁금한 것이 있으시면, [[talk page]]에 질문을 올려주세요. 즐거운 편집이 되시길 바랍니다!
</div>

<div class="lang-en" lang="ms">
Hai {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, dan selamat datang ke '''[[Meta-Wiki]] Wikimedia'''! Laman web ini adalah untuk mengkoordinasikan dan membincangkan segala [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Projek-projek Wikimedia]]. Anda boleh mendapati bahawa membaca [[Meta:Policy|laman polisi]] kita adalah berfaedah. Jika anda berminat dalam membuat penterjemahan, sila melawat [[Meta:Babylon]]. Anda juga boleh meninggalkan pesanan di [[Meta:Babel]] atau [[Meta:Metapub]] (sila baca panduan di atas laman yang berkenaan sebelum meninggalkan pesanan). Jika anda mahu, tanyalah soalan di [[talk page|laman perbualan]] saya. Selamat menyunting!
</div>

<div class="lang-nl" lang="nl">
Hallo {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, en welkom op de '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Deze website is voor het coördineren en bespreken van alle [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedia-projecten]]. Waarschijnlijk vind je het handig om onze [[Meta:Policy|beleidpagina]] te lezen. Als je geïnteresseerd bent in het vertalen van teksten, ga da naar [[Meta:Babylon]]. Je kunt ook een bericht achterlaten op [[Meta:Babel]] of [[Meta:Metapub]] (lees wel de instructies aan het begin van de pagina voordat je een bericht achterlaat). Als je nog vragen hebt stel ze me dan op mijn [[talk page|overlegpagina]]. Veel plezier met bewerken!
</div>

<div class="lang-no" lang="no">
Hei {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, og velkommen til '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Denne siden er til for å diskutere og samordne alle [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimediaprosjektene]]. Vil du vite mer om siden, kan vår [[Meta:Policy|policy-side]] komme til nytte. Er du interessert i å hjelpe til med oversettelser, besøk [[Meta:Babylon]]. Du kan også legge igjen en beskjed på [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] (vær vennlig og les instruksjonene øverst på siden før du skriver noe der). Hvis du vil, er du velkommen til å stille spørsmål på min [[talk page|diskusjonsside]]. God redigering!
</div>

<div class="lang-pl" lang="pl">
Cześć {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}} i witaj w projekcie '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Ta strona została stworzona do koordynacji i dyskusji nad wszystkimi [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projektami Fundacji Wikimedia]]. Proszę Cię o przeczytanie naszych [[Meta:Policy|zasad]]. Jeżeli chcesz się zając tłumaczeniem stron, odwiedź [[Meta:Babylon]]. Możesz również zostawić notkę na stronie [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]], (proszę jednak, abyś najpierw przeczytał instrukcje na górze tej strony). Jeżeli będziesz potrzebował pomocy zostaw komentarz na mojej stronie dyskusji. Miłego edytowania!
</div>

<div class="lang-pt" lang="pt">
Olá {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}! Seja bem-vindo ao '''[[Meta-Wiki|Meta]]'''! Este site/sítio é dedicado à discussão e à coordenação de todos os demais [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projetos da Fundação Wikimedia]]. Talvez lhe seja útil ler a página contendo a nossa [[Meta:Policy|política]] (em [[pt:Língua inglesa|inglês]]) antes de começar a editar. Se tiver dúvidas, sinta-se à vontade para me fazer perguntas em minha [[talk page|página de discussão]], ou deixe uma mensagem para toda a comunidade na [[Meta:Babel|Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]], a versão do Meta da [[pt:Wikipedia:Esplanada|Esplanada]]. Boa sorte!
</div>

<div class="lang-ro" lang="ro">
Ciao {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, şi bine aţi venit la '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Acest website este pentru coordonarea şi discuţiile tuturor [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|proiectelor Wikimedia]]. Este folositor să citiţi [[Meta:Policy|pagina despre politica noastră.]]. Dacă sunteţi interesaţi de traducere, vizita-ţi [[Meta:Babylon]]. De asemenea puteţi lasa o notă pe [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]], (vă rugăm citiţi instrucţiunile de la începutul paginii înainte de a posta acolo). Dacă ai întrebări, nu ezita să mă întrebi pe pagina mea de discuţii [[talk page]]. Editare cu succes!
</div>

<div class="lang-ru" lang="ru">
Здравствуйте, {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, и добро пожаловать на '''[[Meta-Wiki|Мета-вики]]''' фонда Викимедиа! Этот сайт предназначен для координации и обсуждения вопросов, связанных со всеми [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|проектами фонда]]. Для начала предлагаю ознакомиться с [[Meta:Policy|правилами]] этого проекта. Если Вы заинтересованы в работе над переводами страниц Мета-вики и других материалов, посетите [[Meta:Babylon]]. Вы также можете обсудить различные вопросы на странице [[Meta:Babel]] или [[Meta:Metapub]] (пожалуйста, ознакомьтесь с инструкцией сверху, прежде чем писать). Если возникнут вопросы, не бойтесь задавать их мне на [[talk page|моей странице обсуждения]]. Удачи!
</div>

<div class="lang-sq" lang="sq">
Tjeta {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, dhe mirësevin në '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Ky vënd i rrjetës është për të koordinuar dhe diskutuar çdo [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|projekt të Wikimediës]]. Mund ta gjësh të dobishme [[Meta:Policy|faqet e politikës]] sonë. Në qoftë se je duke interesuar në përkthime, vizitò [[Meta:Babylon]]. Mund të lësh një shënim në [[Meta:Babel]] ose [[Meta:Metapub]] (të lutem të lexosh përdorimet në fillim të fletës para se të postosh atje). Në qoftë se do, ndihu i/e lirë të më bsh pyetje në [[talk page|faqen time të diskutimit]].
Të auguroj një redaktim të këndshëm!
</div>

<div class="lang-sr" lang="sr">
Здраво {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, и добро дошли на '''Викимедијин [[Meta-Wiki|мета-вики]]'''! Овај сајт служи за координацију и дискусију око [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Викимедијиних пројеката]]. Вероватно ће Вам бити корисно да прочитате наше [[Meta:Policy|странице везане за политику рада]]. Ако сте заинтересовани за превођење, посетите [[Meta:Babylon]]. Можете такође и оставити поруку на страници [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] (молимо погледајте упутства на врху те странице пре него што пошаљете свој коментар тамо). Ако имате неко питање, можете да ми поставите на мојој [[talk page|страници за разговор]]. Срећно уређивање!
</div>

<div class="lang-sv" lang="sv">
Hej {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, och välkommen till '''Wikimedia [[Meta-Wiki]]'''! Meta är till för att diskutera och samordna alla [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|Wikimedias projekt]]. Vill du veta mer om webbplatsen, kan vår [[Meta:Policy|policy-sida]] komma väl till pass. Är du intresserad av att hjälpa till med översättningar, besök [[Meta:Babylon]]. Du kan skriva diskussionsinlägg på [[Meta:Babel]] eller [[Meta:Metapub]] (läs instruktionerna överst på sidan innan du skriver något där). Om du vill, är du välkommen att ställa frågor på min [[talk page|diskussionssida]]. Lycka till med redigerandet!
</div>

<div class="lang-ta" lang="ta">
வணக்கம் {{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, '''விக்கிமீடியா [[Meta-Wiki|மேல்விக்கி]]'''! இற்கு நல்வரவு. இவ்விணையத்தளமானது கூட்டாகச் சேர்ந்து விடயங்களை விவாதிப்பதற்கென உருவாக்கப் பட்டது. [[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|விக்கித்திட்டங்கள்]]. நீங்கள் எங்களின் பாலிசிகளையும் [[Meta:Policy|பாலிசி பக்கம்]] படித்தறியலாம். நீங்கள் மொழிபெயர்பில் ஆர்வமுடையவராகின், [[Meta:Babylon]] ஐப் பார்வையிடவும். நீங்கள் [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] இல் குறிப்பொன்றையும் விட்டுச் செல்லலாம். (பக்கத்தின் மேலேயிருக்கும் அறிவுறுத்தல்களை வாசித்தபின்னரே அங்கே செய்திகளை இடவும்). நீங்கள் விரும்பினால் எனது பக்கத்தில் செய்தியொன்றை விடவும் [[talk page]]. உங்கள் ஆக்கங்களை வரவேற்கின்றோம்!
</div>

<div class="lang-zh" lang="zh">
{{{{{subst|}}}PAGENAME}}, 你好！歡迎光臨維基媒體[[Meta:關於|元維基]]！這個網站是為協調和討論[[Complete list of Wikimedia projects|所有維基媒體項目]]而設。我們的[[Meta:Policy|政策頁]]可能對您有用。如果您有興趣協助翻譯工作, 請參觀[[Meta:Babylon]]。你可在 [[Meta:Babel]], [[Meta:Metapub]] 留下口訊 (張貼之前請先讀該頁上指示)。若有問題, 請在我的[[talk page|討論頁]]問我。祝 
編安!
</div>

</div> --[[User:Herbythyme|Herby]] [[User talk:Herbythyme|talk thyme]] 08:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

== Per your request... ==

[[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 00:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

== Re:claiming/verifying domains for Alexa, etc. ==

Hi Jeremy. Thanks for following this up. We wish to verify both on Alexa [http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/wikivoyage.org] and on WOT [http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/wikivoyage.org]. Verifying on Alexa would allow us to change the site description, which is currently a one-liner in German. It would also include a note on the page saying we are a claimed site, as well as giving us some leverage if we want to contact Alexa regarding the false, biased IB reviews that have been made so far.

Claiming on WOT would also allow us to add a description on the page. Additionally, we can response to comments on the scorecard and request a reassessment on the forums, allowing us to remove IB comments that are clearly false and a conflict of interest.

Hopefully the staff will be able to work something out with our community so that we are able to claim these two sites. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 06:35, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Grants talk:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T08:37:11Z

JamesA: /* Can we get this from Wikitravel? */

== Can we get this from Wikitravel? ==
Hi James, just looking at this proposal, " a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users", I'd imagine this was either an installed extension or maybe a gadget. Does this still exist on Wikitravel to see if we can just adapt the code under an appropriate license? [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 01:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
:In addition, per the [[Grants:IEG#ieg-learn|criteria for eligible projects]], "Grantees are not awarded special access to WMF Engineering and Product Development or other non-grantmaking staff time.", so if we could get this code from Wikitravel that would be good. [[User:Thehelpfulone|'''The''']][[User talk:Thehelpfulone|'''helpful''']][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|'''one''']] 02:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
::Thanks for your message, Thehelpfulone. We thought we might not be able to apply for manpower, but it was worth a shot. Our project is bursting at the seams with ideas, but the WMF is largely unable to offer us technically support and feature implementation at this time. I checked Special:Version at Wikitravel [http://wikitravel.org/en/Special:Version], but was unable to find the extension. Maybe some more experienced users could comment on how it was implemented. [[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]) 08:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T02:01:33Z

JamesA: +PROPOSED, will need more discussion but is as complete as it'll ever be

{{IEG/Proposals/Infobox
|creator=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]]
|contact=[[User talk:JamesA]]


|summary=A listings editor for Wikivoyage that will enable new editors to easily add and edit listings on articles.


|participants=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]], [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]

|title={{SUBPAGENAME}}
|round=1
|year=2013
}}

[[File:WikivoyageListingEditor.png|400px|thumb|left|A proposed mockup.]]

==Project idea==

:''Please see the original discussion on Wikivoyage: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]''

Before ''Wikivoyage'' migrated to the WMF, a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users to easily add and remove eateries, hotels, attractions, activities, internet cafes and the like. That functionality no longer exists on Wikivoyage. It has the potential to greatly increase the number of editors to the site, while further engaging users who may be scared off by the wiki software.

What would be required is experienced users or coders to develop a new extension that allowed listings to be edited. Pictured to the left is a mockup of what it could look like. The amount of money required is simply what would be needed in manpower and experience.

==Project goals==

* Further engage inexperienced users who may not know how to edit using the editing window
* Allow businesses and tourism bureaus to also engage respectfully with Wikivoyage
* Ensure that new listings are containing within the [[voy:Template:Listing|listing template]], therefore allowing site-wide layout consistency, organisation and possible integration into Open Street Maps
* Increase engagement and editing on this burgeoning project
* Bring Wikivoyage up to standard with certain other free travel wikis which already have this feature

==Open questions==

*''question''

{{IEG/Proposals/Status
|status=PROPOSED
|IdeaLab=YES
}}

{{IdeaLab/Button/2}}

__TOC__
==Project plan==

===Scope:===
====Scope and activities====

I and other Wikivoyage users will be able to provide design and usability feedback, as we are most experienced when it comes to listing editors on a travel wiki. We will also provide support in implementing a trial/beta and engaging users to test it.

By the end of the project, we hope to have a intuitive, fully deployed listing editor for Wikivoyage.

====Tools, technologies, and techniques====


We will need experienced coders to create a MediaWiki extension for the listing editor, preferably hired by the Wikimedia Foundation.

===Budget:===
====Total amount requested====

Whatever amount is required to pay (new) WMF staff to create the extension.

====Budget breakdown====


* Hired coding manpower by the WMF

===Intended impact:===
====Target audience====

All viewers, editors and users of ''Wikivoyage'' will be greatly benefited by the implementation of a listing editor, allowing easier and more frequent editing. It is working towards the Wikivoyage mission of providing an ''up-to-date'' travel guide.

====Fit with strategy====


* Increasing Reach - more viewers will be able to edit at Wikivoyage
* Improving Quality - more editors will mean the content is more complete and up-to-date for travellers
* Increasing Participation - will allow more viewers to become engaged in the community through discussions of destinations and listings, while also increasing positive participation of businesses and tourism bureaus

====Sustainability====

After implementation of the listing editor, the project should see a boost in new users who are easily able to add and append to listings. It will also allow editors to mark listings are closed, which will mean the Wikivoyage content is more up-to-date and reliable.

It could be continued by further expanding the editor with new fields and advanced settings. There is a possibility in the long term that a review/star rating function could be added as part of a new Wikivoyage Reviews branch. ''See [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Enable listings reviews]]''

====Measures of success====

We will monitor usage of the new listing editor through analysis of the default summaries it appends to edits. We will also monitor overall site usage and see if there is an increase in editing as a result of the new listing editor.

==Participant(s)==

The grantees would have to be decided by the WMF, as the WMF would need to either utilise its current staff to build the extension or hire new staff for a particular period to develop the extension. Myself and most other Wikivoyage users will be involved in a volunteer role, providing feedback and specific goals.


==Discussion==

===Community Notification:===

* Original community discussion is located here: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]
* Minor discussion about the possibility of an IdeaLab proposal: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Help_turn_ideas_into_grants_in_the_new_IdeaLab]]
* A further community notification of this proposal is located here: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Notification_of_IdeaLab_proposal_for_a_new_Listing_Editor]]

===Endorsements:===

Do you think this project should be selected for an Individual Engagement Grant? Please add your name and rationale for endorsing this project in the list below. Other feedback, questions or concerns from community members are also highly valued, but please post them on the [[Grants talk:{{PAGENAME}}|talk page]] of this proposal.

*[[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]): As I've stated within this proposal.
*

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T01:59:57Z

JamesA: /* Community Notification: */ +2 pub discussions

{{IEG/Proposals/Infobox
|creator=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]]
|contact=[[User talk:JamesA]]


|summary=A listings editor for Wikivoyage that will enable new editors to easily add and edit listings on articles.


|participants=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]], [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]

|title={{SUBPAGENAME}}
|round=1
|year=2013
}}

[[File:WikivoyageListingEditor.png|400px|thumb|left|A proposed mockup.]]

==Project idea==

:''Please see the original discussion on Wikivoyage: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]''

Before ''Wikivoyage'' migrated to the WMF, a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users to easily add and remove eateries, hotels, attractions, activities, internet cafes and the like. That functionality no longer exists on Wikivoyage. It has the potential to greatly increase the number of editors to the site, while further engaging users who may be scared off by the wiki software.

What would be required is experienced users or coders to develop a new extension that allowed listings to be edited. Pictured to the left is a mockup of what it could look like. The amount of money required is simply what would be needed in manpower and experience.

==Project goals==

* Further engage inexperienced users who may not know how to edit using the editing window
* Allow businesses and tourism bureaus to also engage respectfully with Wikivoyage
* Ensure that new listings are containing within the [[voy:Template:Listing|listing template]], therefore allowing site-wide layout consistency, organisation and possible integration into Open Street Maps
* Increase engagement and editing on this burgeoning project
* Bring Wikivoyage up to standard with certain other free travel wikis which already have this feature

==Open questions==

*''question''

{{IEG/Proposals/Status
|status=
|IdeaLab=YES
}}

{{IdeaLab/Button/2}}

__TOC__
==Project plan==

===Scope:===
====Scope and activities====

I and other Wikivoyage users will be able to provide design and usability feedback, as we are most experienced when it comes to listing editors on a travel wiki. We will also provide support in implementing a trial/beta and engaging users to test it.

By the end of the project, we hope to have a intuitive, fully deployed listing editor for Wikivoyage.

====Tools, technologies, and techniques====


We will need experienced coders to create a MediaWiki extension for the listing editor, preferably hired by the Wikimedia Foundation.

===Budget:===
====Total amount requested====

Whatever amount is required to pay (new) WMF staff to create the extension.

====Budget breakdown====


* Hired coding manpower by the WMF

===Intended impact:===
====Target audience====

All viewers, editors and users of ''Wikivoyage'' will be greatly benefited by the implementation of a listing editor, allowing easier and more frequent editing. It is working towards the Wikivoyage mission of providing an ''up-to-date'' travel guide.

====Fit with strategy====


* Increasing Reach - more viewers will be able to edit at Wikivoyage
* Improving Quality - more editors will mean the content is more complete and up-to-date for travellers
* Increasing Participation - will allow more viewers to become engaged in the community through discussions of destinations and listings, while also increasing positive participation of businesses and tourism bureaus

====Sustainability====

After implementation of the listing editor, the project should see a boost in new users who are easily able to add and append to listings. It will also allow editors to mark listings are closed, which will mean the Wikivoyage content is more up-to-date and reliable.

It could be continued by further expanding the editor with new fields and advanced settings. There is a possibility in the long term that a review/star rating function could be added as part of a new Wikivoyage Reviews branch. ''See [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Enable listings reviews]]''

====Measures of success====

We will monitor usage of the new listing editor through analysis of the default summaries it appends to edits. We will also monitor overall site usage and see if there is an increase in editing as a result of the new listing editor.

==Participant(s)==

The grantees would have to be decided by the WMF, as the WMF would need to either utilise its current staff to build the extension or hire new staff for a particular period to develop the extension. Myself and most other Wikivoyage users will be involved in a volunteer role, providing feedback and specific goals.


==Discussion==

===Community Notification:===

* Original community discussion is located here: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]
* Minor discussion about the possibility of an IdeaLab proposal: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Help_turn_ideas_into_grants_in_the_new_IdeaLab]]
* A further community notification of this proposal is located here: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Travellers%27_pub#Notification_of_IdeaLab_proposal_for_a_new_Listing_Editor]]

===Endorsements:===

Do you think this project should be selected for an Individual Engagement Grant? Please add your name and rationale for endorsing this project in the list below. Other feedback, questions or concerns from community members are also highly valued, but please post them on the [[Grants talk:{{PAGENAME}}|talk page]] of this proposal.

*[[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]): As I've stated within this proposal.
*

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T01:55:56Z

JamesA: part 3

{{IEG/Proposals/Infobox
|creator=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]]
|contact=[[User talk:JamesA]]


|summary=A listings editor for Wikivoyage that will enable new editors to easily add and edit listings on articles.


|participants=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]], [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]

|title={{SUBPAGENAME}}
|round=1
|year=2013
}}

[[File:WikivoyageListingEditor.png|400px|thumb|left|A proposed mockup.]]

==Project idea==

:''Please see the original discussion on Wikivoyage: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]''

Before ''Wikivoyage'' migrated to the WMF, a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users to easily add and remove eateries, hotels, attractions, activities, internet cafes and the like. That functionality no longer exists on Wikivoyage. It has the potential to greatly increase the number of editors to the site, while further engaging users who may be scared off by the wiki software.

What would be required is experienced users or coders to develop a new extension that allowed listings to be edited. Pictured to the left is a mockup of what it could look like. The amount of money required is simply what would be needed in manpower and experience.

==Project goals==

* Further engage inexperienced users who may not know how to edit using the editing window
* Allow businesses and tourism bureaus to also engage respectfully with Wikivoyage
* Ensure that new listings are containing within the [[voy:Template:Listing|listing template]], therefore allowing site-wide layout consistency, organisation and possible integration into Open Street Maps
* Increase engagement and editing on this burgeoning project
* Bring Wikivoyage up to standard with certain other free travel wikis which already have this feature

==Open questions==

*''question''

{{IEG/Proposals/Status
|status=
|IdeaLab=YES
}}

{{IdeaLab/Button/2}}

__TOC__
==Project plan==

===Scope:===
====Scope and activities====

I and other Wikivoyage users will be able to provide design and usability feedback, as we are most experienced when it comes to listing editors on a travel wiki. We will also provide support in implementing a trial/beta and engaging users to test it.

By the end of the project, we hope to have a intuitive, fully deployed listing editor for Wikivoyage.

====Tools, technologies, and techniques====


We will need experienced coders to create a MediaWiki extension for the listing editor, preferably hired by the Wikimedia Foundation.

===Budget:===
====Total amount requested====

Whatever amount is required to pay (new) WMF staff to create the extension.

====Budget breakdown====


* Hired coding manpower by the WMF

===Intended impact:===
====Target audience====

All viewers, editors and users of ''Wikivoyage'' will be greatly benefited by the implementation of a listing editor, allowing easier and more frequent editing. It is working towards the Wikivoyage mission of providing an ''up-to-date'' travel guide.

====Fit with strategy====


* Increasing Reach - more viewers will be able to edit at Wikivoyage
* Improving Quality - more editors will mean the content is more complete and up-to-date for travellers
* Increasing Participation - will allow more viewers to become engaged in the community through discussions of destinations and listings, while also increasing positive participation of businesses and tourism bureaus

====Sustainability====

After implementation of the listing editor, the project should see a boost in new users who are easily able to add and append to listings. It will also allow editors to mark listings are closed, which will mean the Wikivoyage content is more up-to-date and reliable.

It could be continued by further expanding the editor with new fields and advanced settings. There is a possibility in the long term that a review/star rating function could be added as part of a new Wikivoyage Reviews branch. ''See [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Enable listings reviews]]''

====Measures of success====

We will monitor usage of the new listing editor through analysis of the default summaries it appends to edits. We will also monitor overall site usage and see if there is an increase in editing as a result of the new listing editor.

==Participant(s)==

The grantees would have to be decided by the WMF, as the WMF would need to either utilise its current staff to build the extension or hire new staff for a particular period to develop the extension. Myself and most other Wikivoyage users will be involved in a volunteer role, providing feedback and specific goals.


==Discussion==

===Community Notification:===

* Original community discussion is located here: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]
* A further community notification of this proposal is located here:

===Endorsements:===

Do you think this project should be selected for an Individual Engagement Grant? Please add your name and rationale for endorsing this project in the list below. Other feedback, questions or concerns from community members are also highly valued, but please post them on the [[Grants talk:{{PAGENAME}}|talk page]] of this proposal.

*[[User:JamesA|JamesA]] ([[User talk:JamesA|talk]]): As I've stated within this proposal.
*

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T01:53:55Z

JamesA: moved image

{{IEG/Proposals/Infobox
|creator=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]]
|contact=[[User talk:JamesA]]


|summary=A listings editor for Wikivoyage that will enable new editors to easily add and edit listings on articles.


|participants=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]], [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]

|title={{SUBPAGENAME}}
|round=1
|year=2013
}}

[[File:WikivoyageListingEditor.png|400px|thumb|left|A proposed mockup.]]

==Project idea==

:''Please see the original discussion on Wikivoyage: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]''

Before ''Wikivoyage'' migrated to the WMF, a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users to easily add and remove eateries, hotels, attractions, activities, internet cafes and the like. That functionality no longer exists on Wikivoyage. It has the potential to greatly increase the number of editors to the site, while further engaging users who may be scared off by the wiki software.

What would be required is experienced users or coders to develop a new extension that allowed listings to be edited. Pictured to the left is a mockup of what it could look like. The amount of money required is simply what would be needed in manpower and experience.

==Project goals==

* Further engage inexperienced users who may not know how to edit using the editing window
* Allow businesses and tourism bureaus to also engage respectfully with Wikivoyage
* Ensure that new listings are containing within the [[voy:Template:Listing|listing template]], therefore allowing site-wide layout consistency, organisation and possible integration into Open Street Maps
* Increase engagement and editing on this burgeoning project
* Bring Wikivoyage up to standard with certain other free travel wikis which already have this feature

==Open questions==

*''question''

{{IEG/Proposals/Status
|status=
|IdeaLab=YES
}}

{{IdeaLab/Button/2}}

__TOC__
==Project plan==

===Scope:===
====Scope and activities====

I and other Wikivoyage users will be able to provide design and usability feedback, as we are most experienced when it comes to listing editors on a travel wiki. We will also provide support in implementing a trial/beta and engaging users to test it.

By the end of the project, we hope to have a intuitive, fully deployed listing editor for Wikivoyage.

====Tools, technologies, and techniques====


We will need experienced coders to create a MediaWiki extension for the listing editor, preferably hired by the Wikimedia Foundation.

===Budget:===
====Total amount requested====

Whatever amount is required to pay (new) WMF staff to create the extension.

====Budget breakdown====


* Hired coding manpower by the WMF

===Intended impact:===
====Target audience====

All viewers, editors and users of ''Wikivoyage'' will be greatly benefited by the implementation of a listing editor, allowing easier and more frequent editing. It is working towards the Wikivoyage mission of providing an ''up-to-date'' travel guide.

====Fit with strategy====


* Increasing Reach - more viewers will be able to edit at Wikivoyage
* Improving Quality - more editors will mean the content is more complete and up-to-date for travellers
* Increasing Participation - will allow more viewers to become engaged in the community through discussions of destinations and listings, while also increasing positive participation of businesses and tourism bureaus

====Sustainability====

After implementation of the listing editor, the project should see a boost in new users who are easily able to add and append to listings. It will also allow editors to mark listings are closed, which will mean the Wikivoyage content is more up-to-date and reliable.

It could be continued by further expanding the editor with new fields and advanced settings. There is a possibility in the long term that a review/star rating function could be added as part of a new Wikivoyage Reviews branch. ''See [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Enable listings reviews]]''

====Measures of success====

We will monitor usage of the new listing editor through analysis of the default summaries it appends to edits. We will also monitor overall site usage and see if there is an increase in editing as a result of the new listing editor.

==Participant(s)==

The grantees would have to be decided by the WMF, as the WMF would need to either utilise its current staff to build the extension or hire new staff for a particular period to develop the extension. Myself and most other Wikivoyage users will be involved in a volunteer role, providing feedback and specific goals.

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T01:51:55Z

JamesA: part 2

{{IEG/Proposals/Infobox
|creator=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]]
|contact=[[User talk:JamesA]]


|summary=A listings editor for Wikivoyage that will enable new editors to easily add and edit listings on articles.


|participants=[[User:JamesA|JamesA]], [[User:Peterfitzgerald|Peterfitzgerald]]

|title={{SUBPAGENAME}}
|round=1
|year=2013
}}

==Project idea==

:''Please see the original discussion on Wikivoyage: [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Improved editing interface]]''
[[File:WikivoyageListingEditor.png|250px|thumb|right|A proposed mockup.]]
Before ''Wikivoyage'' migrated to the WMF, a listing editor existed on WT that allowed inexperienced users to easily add and remove eateries, hotels, attractions, activities, internet cafes and the like. That functionality no longer exists on Wikivoyage. It has the potential to greatly increase the number of editors to the site, while further engaging users who may be scared off by the wiki software.

What would be required is experienced users or coders to develop a new extension that allowed listings to be edited. Pictured to the right is a mockup of what it could look like. The amount of money required is simply what would be needed in manpower and experience.

==Project goals==

* Further engage inexperienced users who may not know how to edit using the editing window
* Allow businesses and tourism bureaus to also engage respectfully with Wikivoyage
* Ensure that new listings are containing within the [[voy:Template:Listing|listing template]], therefore allowing site-wide layout consistency, organisation and possible integration into Open Street Maps
* Increase engagement and editing on this burgeoning project
* Bring Wikivoyage up to standard with certain other free travel wikis which already have this feature

==Open questions==

*''question''

{{IEG/Proposals/Status
|status=
|IdeaLab=YES
}}

{{IdeaLab/Button/2}}

__TOC__
==Project plan==

===Scope:===
====Scope and activities====

I and other Wikivoyage users will be able to provide design and usability feedback, as we are most experienced when it comes to listing editors on a travel wiki. We will also provide support in implementing a trial/beta and engaging users to test it.

By the end of the project, we hope to have a intuitive, fully deployed listing editor for Wikivoyage.

====Tools, technologies, and techniques====


We will need experienced coders to create a MediaWiki extension for the listing editor, preferably hired by the Wikimedia Foundation.

===Budget:===
====Total amount requested====

Whatever amount is required to pay (new) WMF staff to create the extension.

====Budget breakdown====


* Hired coding manpower by the WMF

===Intended impact:===
====Target audience====

All viewers, editors and users of ''Wikivoyage'' will be greatly benefited by the implementation of a listing editor, allowing easier and more frequent editing. It is working towards the Wikivoyage mission of providing an ''up-to-date'' travel guide.

====Fit with strategy====


* Increasing Reach - more viewers will be able to edit at Wikivoyage
* Improving Quality - more editors will mean the content is more complete and up-to-date for travellers
* Increasing Participation - will allow more viewers to become engaged in the community through discussions of destinations and listings, while also increasing positive participation of businesses and tourism bureaus

====Sustainability====

After implementation of the listing editor, the project should see a boost in new users who are easily able to add and append to listings. It will also allow editors to mark listings are closed, which will mean the Wikivoyage content is more up-to-date and reliable.

It could be continued by further expanding the editor with new fields and advanced settings. There is a possibility in the long term that a review/star rating function could be added as part of a new Wikivoyage Reviews branch. ''See [[voy:Wikivoyage:Roadmap/Enable listings reviews]]''

====Measures of success====

We will monitor usage of the new listing editor through analysis of the default summaries it appends to edits. We will also monitor overall site usage and see if there is an increase in editing as a result of the new listing editor.

==Participant(s)==

The grantees would have to be decided by the WMF, as the WMF would need to either utilise its current staff to build the extension or hire new staff for a particular period to develop the extension. Myself and most other Wikivoyage users will be involved in a volunteer role, providing feedback and specific goals.

Grants:IEG/Listing editor for Wikivoyage

2013-02-14T01:34:28Z

JamesA: expanded