Wikiquote - User contributions [en]

Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard

2019-05-04T11:55:39Z

FDMS4: Undo revision 2583929 by 86.185.108.65 (talk).

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== Antichristos/Attractor321 apparently at work here again ==

I was just checking in briefly and noticed that the recent edit patterns of {{user|7jtyghe}} closely correspond with those of [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Attractor321 the globally blocked cross-wiki abuser] [[w:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Antichristos/Archive|Antichristos]] who is believed to have operated on this and other wikis through many aliases including {{user|Attractor321}}, {{user|Ufj7v}}, and probably at least a few others. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
:Blocked based on behavioral evidence. See also evidence at [[:w:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Antichristos/Archive]]. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 17:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
:Also User:O47ftbvk, just for the record, in case this at some point needs a CU. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 14:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

== Vandalism [[Special:Contributions/207.99.213.50|207.99.213.50]] ==

Ip : 207.99.213.50 
Vandalism Reason : mass blanking. [[User:Tomybrz|Tomybrz]] [[User Talk:Tomybrz|Bip Bip]] 22:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
:{{not done}} I was watching this about 15 minutes after it ended, looking to see if it would continue. But it has at this point been about an hour. So either the user has stopped, or they've jumped IP addresses. Having said that, thank you very much for helping us fight vandalism. You're efforts are greatly appreciated. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 23:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

== Vandalism by 73.244.34.177 ==

Particularly on [[Pocahontas (1995 film)]]. Makes the same edits, exceeding the limit on quotes and unnecessary emphasis. I request this vandal be blocked and that all the pages it vandalized be protected, all for no less than a year. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
:I don't really deal with pop culture on any project. But my daughter has watched Pocahontas enough that I can fairly well say the IP looks like they were having a go at trying to reproduce the script of the movie nearly in its entirety. Obviously we can't have that. Feel free to ping me if they return and go right back to it, or if they start again on another IP, and we can look to see if the article protection would be more effective than blocking. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 19:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

== Page protection of [[User talk:Tegel]] ==

Hi. Consider semi-protection of my talk page due to vandalism. Thanks. -- [[User:Tegel|Tegel]] ([[User talk:Tegel|talk]]) 19:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
:[[User:Tegel|Tegel]] {{done}} I started with six months, but given how long-term the vandalism is, if you want that extended to indef just let me know. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 20:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

== [[User:Abramsky]] ==

Hello Wikiquote admins/crats. You may want to consider removing Abramsky as an administrator as he is a globally banned user and currently locked. Thank you, [[User:Vermont|Vermont]] ([[User talk:Vermont|talk]]) 01:05, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:As an office action no less, pinging [[User:UDScott]] and [[User:BD2412]]. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 01:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:And as soon as I post this I remember that crats can't remove the bit on this project. So '''support''' a vote of no confidence, to request that stewards remove the bit. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 01:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:: I also support removing the globally banned user. With tree supports, you may now call for a [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship#Votes of confidence|Votes of confidence]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 22:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
* {{ping|Vermont|Ningauble}} The requested vote of confidence is now open at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship#Abramsky (talk · contributions)]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:22, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

== IP vandal 98.214.101.235‎... ==

...is at it again, still vandalizing [[Alvin and the Chipmunks (1983 TV series)]], claiming it was a Cartoon Network series. It was dead wrong, as usual, because Cartoon Network did not exist even when this animated series ended in 1990. The series premiered on NBC and no other network. I request this IP be duly blocked and the page be protected for no less than a year. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 22:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
:Blocked two weeks by Koavf. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 12:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/Frany Dejota]] ==

When someone gets a chance, can an uninvolved admin close this VfD? The content on Commons has already been deleted, and the Wikidata item is just wating on this discussion to be closed. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 12:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
* {{done}} [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 14:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

== User:Johnnnnnnnn ==

Could an admin please block [[Special:Contribs/Johnnnnnnnn]]? Vandalizing Wikiquote since October 2018. Thanks, --[[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 14:55, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
:Already {{done}} [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 14:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

== Blatant Pro-Russian POV pusher ==

Hi everyone. The user [[User:Om777om|Om777om]] has been pushing a strong pro-Russian, anti-American agenda on various articles on the English Wikiquote that I wanted to bring to your attention. Here's a few examples:
*Created [[Charter of the United Nations]]. Insofar, all 7 quotes added to this page pertain to alleged violations of the charter by the United States, all but one from fringe sources. Thankfully, [[:w:WP:RS/N]] sheds light as to the validity of the websites that these quites are derived from. Four of the quotes are from Global Research, a conspiracy website shown as such by both [[:w:Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_155#globalresearch.ca|editorial consensus]] and [https://web.archive.org/web/20171130012727/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/nato-research-centre-sets-sights-on-canadian-website-over-pro-russian-disinformation/article37015521/ NATO]. One quote is from Sputnik News; that bias is self-explanatory, and another is a direct quote from Nicolas Maduro, where the user in question purposefully bolded the part saying the U.S. violated the charter. The final quote is from CounterPunch; see [[:w:CounterPunch#Russian_disinformation]].
*Created [[Foreign policy of the United States]]. Ten of the eleven quotes are anti-US, and from modern fringe sources. The page should be quotes about topics like the Monroe Doctrine, not that the "US and its allied neocolonial powers will forever continue to get away with mass murder and genocide." Most of the quotes are from Global Research, which I addressed in the last bullet. A few are from [[:w:Ron_Unz#The_Unz_Review_and_other_activities|The Unz Review]], referred to by the ADL as an "outlet for certain writers to attack Israel and Jews". One quote is from the BBC, which selectively picks parts of their profile on the U.S. to push their POV.
*Added a strongly anti-Israel quote to [[Benjamin Netanyahu]] from fringe source The Unz Review. ([https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Benjamin_Netanyahu&diff=prev&oldid=2560887 diff])
*They added many similar quotes to [[Israel]], mostly not even focusing on Israel and simply bad things about Jews. Most additions are from The Unz Review, CounterPunch, or similar outlets.
*They have been adding pro-Venezuela quotes to [[Venezuela]] since December 2018. See the history of the article. I did a CTRL+F for Guaidó, and it only mentions him in quotes such as, "Juan Guaidó is the product of a decade-long project overseen by Washington’s elite regime change trainers" (first result).
*There are many similar additions to many articles which has been continuing, editing almost every day, since their first edit on November 1, 2018. I could go through them all, but it would take a lot of time. I believe the above, which is their more recent additions, accurately characterize why they're editing.
I recommend an indefinite block, as they're here only to push a political point of view, the deletion (or blanking of the quotes section) of all created articles except for [[Philip Giraldi]], who wrote a few of those fringe articles from Global Research, and the removal of all political-related quotes. I can assist in the cleanup if consensus is to remove the politically-charged additions. Thanks, [[User:Vermont|Vermont]] ([[User talk:Vermont|talk]]) 10:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
:Just a comment, Ha! I was surprised when I saw his edit on cvn logs, I thought he was an established user, so I was kind of wondering if I should undo this users edit or not.[[User:Aldnonymous|Aldnonymous]] ([[User talk:Aldnonymous|talk]]) 10:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
* It is difficult to find very many, if any substantive edits by this user that are not overtly politically hyper-partisan, even on pages otherwise [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Complacency&diff=2515475&oldid=2145594 unrelated to politics]. This is not the first time the issue has been raised (e.g., [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=National_security&diff=prev&oldid=2522990], [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Om777om&diff=2523712&oldid=2523698], [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=2545832&oldid=2545826] - Courtesy pings for {{ping|Ningauble}} and {{ping|Kalki}}). Their responses (e.g., [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Om777om&diff=next&oldid=2522679], [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Charter_of_the_United_Nations&oldid=2560978], [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=2545826&oldid=2545814]) seem to indicate that they see the issue primarily as one of [[:w:WP:WGR|righting great wrongs]] rather than trying to build a lasting educational resource. I do not believe the solution is, as they suggest on [[Talk:Charter of the United Nations]], that if we want a neutral article, then someone needs to balance their own hyper-partisan content with contrary hyper-partisan content, because the purpose of this project is not to house hyper-partisan content. I'm inclined to say rather that if they cannot contribute to article in a way that is not overt political advocacy, then they need to stop contributing. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 13:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
* I worry that "hyper-partisanship" is a slippery slope. It sounds like most, if not all of this editor's additions run afoul of [[WQ:Q]] and the editor can be blocked for that reason.

== {{user|EphFan}} should probably be blocked here ==

Curious as to the character of the editor who sought to create a page devoted to the mass murderer who perpetrated the [[Christchurch mosque shootings]], I did a lookup of the global accounts of {{user|EphFan}} and at Wikipedia I found a permanent block which noted :"'''This account is a sock puppet of Tyciol (talk · contribs · logs), and it has been blocked indefinitely'''", and at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tyciol User:Tyciol] one finds: "'''This user account has been locked across all Wikimedia projects.'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:45, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
:[[User:Kalki|Kalki]], EphFan was [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth?target=EphFan globally locked] on 18 March. But I'd say that if we find socks here of globally banned users who have been confirmed by CUs on another project, we can probably go ahead and block locally and report to stewards without the need for prior discussion. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 12:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

== Vandalism & username ==

[[Special:Contributions/Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]] should be probably indef'd per vandalism and username. -- [[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] ([[User talk:MarcoAurelio|talk]]) 09:22, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
: This user has now been blocked. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 10:14, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

== LTA/Vandalism ==
Please see [[Special:Contribs/165.120.199.20]]. Thanks, [[User:Vermont|Vermont]] ([[User talk:Vermont|talk]]) 09:55, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
:Disregard, globally blocked. [[User:Vermont|Vermont]] ([[User talk:Vermont|talk]]) 09:58, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

== VfD closing ==

Dear administrators, please close [[wikiquote:Votes for deletion/E.M.S|this VfD]]. I would like to close its item's [[wikidata:Wikidata:Requests_for_deletions#Q56322094|RfD on Wikidata]]. Thanks in advance! [[User:Bencemac|Bencemac]] ([[User talk:Bencemac|talk]]) 14:52, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
: [[User:Bencemac|Bencemac]], now closed by [[User:Ningauble]]. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 12:08, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
::Thank you very much! [[User:Bencemac|Bencemac]] ([[User talk:Bencemac|talk]]) 13:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

== Vandalism of [[Castlevania: Symphony of the Night]] ==

Under IPs 186.11.15.25 and 186.11.111.153 a handful of offensive edits were made to the entire [[Castlevania: Symphony of the Night]] page. Was unable to undo all of them, as I'm too new an account.
--[[User:Aetropos|Aetropos]] ([[User talk:Aetropos|talk]]) 21:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Aetropos}} Thanks for this. Protection, block, suppressed edits, etc. Very helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 21:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

== Several vandals afoot... ==

Aside from the Toy Story/Shrek vandal, we have 68.201.9.142, 86.179.83.52‎, Stopthebuyers, Wewillbuythisplace, etc.
:68.201.9.142-- Absolute nonsense, changing certain networks to PBS without explanation.
:86.179.83.52‎, Stopthebuyers, Wewillbuythisplace-- Redoing vandalism, unlawfully bullying Tegel, spamming, trying to defend other vandals, the works. I request all of these users be blocked infinitely and the pages they vandalized be protected indefinitely, as well as my talk page, GreenMeansGo's talk page, etc. (the talk pages need indefinite protection, because short-term protection will not stop the vandals). [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 02:23, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
:Between [[User:GreenMeansGo]] and myself, it looks like they are blocked. Can you point out any further users needing blocks or diffs needing reversion? Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 03:00, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
:86.180.153.142 has joined the vandalism squadron. But my talk page should be protected, as well, indefinitely. I know these vandals will not stop unless what they vandalize is protected indefinitely. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 13:17, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
:One month of protection is not enough. One year at least should suffice. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 17:34, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
:Maybe we should only let confirmed users edit here. Letting IPs at it is just asking for trouble. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 17:36, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

<div style="float:right; border:solid #DDAA77 1px; margin: 1px 1px;">
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 238px; background: #FFEEAA;"
| style="width: 45px; height: 45px; background: #DDAA77; text-align: center;" | [[File:Evolution-tasks.svg|45px]]
| style="font-size: 8pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em; color: black;" | This user thinks that [[Special:Userlogin|registration]] should be required to [[Help:Editing|edit]] articles.
|}</div>
:* I have long said so on my user page, but there is no consensus for it. Even the fearless leader [[w:User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo]] holds it so important to let people freely edit without needing to sign in first, that it is worth forcing us to either waste boundless time and effort cleaning up utter nonsense and deliberate vandalism or else just accept that the wiki is irrevocably and irredeemably full of crap. This is meta-policy at the highest level of the organization, and is extremely unlikely to change. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 18:12, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
::With all this vandalism, we may have to convince him to consider otherwise. Besides, several Wikia/Fandom sites have adopted such policies. I do not see why this one should not. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 00:26, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, it's not difficult to become a registered editorǃ--[[User:Risto hot sir|Risto hot sir]] ([[User talk:Risto hot sir|talk]]) 00:30, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
: I do not support a blanket ban on anon IP editing here or anywhere on the Wikimedia projects, but I can accept that long term protection of pages from anon edits for 6 months or a year should be liberally used where disruptive edits are endemic, and protection of pages from anon editing for a month or less should probably be applied rather casually after even minor disruptions. I know that in recent years I have not always had enough time or presence to examine some of the more extensive incidents of subtle or overt vandalism which have been occurring, and regarding many pages I do not have enough direct knowledge to make assessments on some of the dubious edits, and thus I am often not inclined to immediately block IPs even short term without clearly overt vandalism. '''Long term protection of many of the targeted pages from anon editing for up to a year is something I already can and do readily accept as a practical measure, and even permanent protection in such ways is something I probably can also accept as appropriate on some pages.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 01:58, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
:: If that is the criteria, then I say at least year should suffice for pages that are being vandalized by ''repetitive major'' disruptions such as the Toy Story/Shrek vandals who continuously add non-existent quotes. But should that occur again after the protection expires, I recommend no less than double the prior protection. [[User:WikiLubber|WikiLubber]] ([[User talk:WikiLubber|talk]]) 18:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
* What projects have disabled anonymous editing entirely? Surely none of the larger ones? Enwiki, dewiki, frwiki, data, meta, commons...none of these have done so as far as I am aware. [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 12:32, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
*:Requiring IPs to always write edit summaries to facilitate their edits, rejected on Chinese Wikipedia many years ago, may be better than entirely disabling anonymous editing that I know of no project doing so.--[[User:Jusjih|Jusjih]] ([[User talk:Jusjih|talk]]) 04:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

==Need clarification about User name policy==

[[Wikiquote:Username policy]]

I need clarification in following:

"Usernames which consist primarily of the name of a religious figure (such as "God", "Jehovah", "Buddha", or "Allah") are prohibited. In addition, usernames that invoke the name of a religious figure or religion are prohibited should they be distasteful, provoke or promote intolerance, are blatantly disrespectful of the religion, or promote the ideology that one religion is superior to others (e.g. "ChristOnly", etc.). Usernames that are clearly expressions of faith are discouraged, however considered allowed unless disruptive. Should a username not be clear as to the motive, it may be reviewed."

Can i continue ?If any admin respond to me , i will ask the question

([[User:Kromiom|Kromiom]] ([[User talk:Kromiom|talk]]) 20:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC))
:Are there religious connotations to "Kromiom" or "chromium"??? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 02:19, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_Dea

Bona Dea ([bɔ.na ˈde.a] 'Good Goddess') was a goddess in ancient Roman religion. She was associated with chastity and fertility in Roman women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_Dea

::"Bonadea" user name is against user name policy .Any one can take this god name for user name ?

([[User:Kromiom|Kromiom]] ([[User talk:Kromiom|talk]]) 04:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC))
:While I'm sure there are ''some'' persons who claim to be practitioners of Roman reconstructionist pagan religion, there is no actual community of Roman pagans nor has there been for several centuries. The goal of the policy is to ensure that existing religious sensibilities aren't infringed upon and that fights don't emerge because of shock names. I don't know that anyone would be offended by this name, so I don't think it meets the spirit of the rule. I'm happy to read others' thoughts, tho. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (ko'''a'''vf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 04:54, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=893848103

bot-flagged "User name Violation". Admin confirmed that is user name violation. ([[User:Kromiom|Kromiom]] ([[User talk:Kromiom|talk]]) 05:04, 25 April 2019 (UTC)) ([[User:Kromiom|Kromiom]] ([[User talk:Kromiom|talk]]) 05:06, 25 April 2019 (UTC))

:I don't see how "admin confirmed user name violation". Also please note that Wikiquote, Simple and Wikipedia are three different projects and might have differences in username policies. By common sense it is not a problem if someone's username resembles some obscure deity nobody worships anymore or has never heard about. Mankind names asteroids and who knows what objects after ancient Greek or Roman gods, and that is not a problem in the slightest. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 09:05, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

:Also that vandalism report is about non-existent user. This is just total waste of time. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 09:09, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

[[User:Jni]] you are absolutely correct.

In Wikipedia Bot flagged following way : Commented about an user B0nadea.

B0nadea is a God of Roman religion.Do not use the name of a political, military or religious figure or event (including real people).Do not choose something that might be offensive. Your user name should not suggest that you hold any particular political, religious or other belief. 
:*'''Note''': User is in the category: [[:Category:Wikipedia usernames with possible policy issues|Wikipedia usernames with possible policy issues]]. [[User:HBC AIV helperbot5|HBC AIV helperbot5]] ([[User talk:HBC AIV helperbot5|talk]]) 23:48, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

No need to continue this discussion more

[[User:Kromiom|Kromiom]] ([[User talk:Kromiom|talk]]) 09:53, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
* [[:w:Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Nsmutte]] [[User:GreenMeansGo|GMG]][[User talk:GreenMeansGo#top|talk]] 10:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Bob Black

2014-10-25T11:10:25Z

FDMS4: G

== images ==
{{ping|Kalki}} Please read [[WQ:IMAGE]]: ''The connection between the images used and the subject matter of the page as a whole, and individual quotes on it, should be obvious and specific.'' (underlining by me) – you can't just say "he is ''against fascist methods of suppression'' → each and every quote of him is directly related to anarchism and the specific ideas each symbol stands for". For example, "You may be wondering if I'm joking or serious. I'm joking and serious." has no ''obvious'' relation to anarchism. Or, how is "Play is always voluntary. What might otherwise be play is work if it's forced. This is axiomatic." related to Wikipedia? Also, please remove the link parameters from the non-PD images on your userpage, ignoring the attribution requirement is a copyright violation.    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    21:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
: The last version of that page I can recognize as entirely VALID and legitimately in accord with Wiki principles is probably sometime shortly after it began to be altered from its clearly [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Image_use_policy&oldid=1277329 '''LEGITIMATE state in April 2011]'''. The current state of '''[[Wikiquote:Image use policy|IT]]''' is something I have sometimes commented upon, but far more often have suppressed MANY of my urges to comment upon, thus far, ''for some years'', though it provides a VERY rich TEACHING tool as to the vile '''ABUSES''' of abilities not expressly suppressed in such ways as most people would be likely to be aware of, to develop means of overtly SUPPRESSING vital and useful abilities many people fail to appreciate, but '''I believe I have made it plain in past months and years that I consider it, in its current state, one of the WORST pieces of INVALID and ILLEGITIMATE pieces of crap which exists on this wiki''', which was specifically tailored by a few EITHER hostile to images in general, for various reasons, or in at least one case, simply to ME personally, to effectively intimidate, suppress and overrule MANY legitimate uses of images. I consider it part of a concerted effort by a very FEW people, taking advantage of the general apathy of many, '''IGNORING the principles with which the wikis were founded, the principles which were clearly explicated for years in many of the guidelines provided at Wikipedia, and CORRUPTING the practices, to make what were ultimately ILLEGITIMATE intrusions and suppression of IDEAS and PRESENTATION rights SEEM legitimate. ''' I actually do NOT agree with all of Blacks apparent ideas or statements or attitudes, but '''I believe the images in which some of them are used to caption the images ARE appropriate to HOW he is using some of the terms he uses, and how he is applying them''', and rather obviously so, to anyone not either deliberately or constitutionally obtuse or asinine. I have MANY MORE ideas on my mind on how to respond to your arguments, and some of the points you attempt to make, and other situations you are referring to — but unfortunately I do not have time to develop them all right now, as I must soon be leaving for at least several hours — with perhaps only a brief ability to check in on things here at a couple opportunities. But as to your closing claim that I must remove all non PD images from my user pages — that I believe is ludicrous, because I believe that the general stance on their usage on Wikimedia projects is that the attributions provided on the linked image pages are sufficient in conforming to any licensing requirements. There is actually MUCH more I am inclined to say, as those familiar with my bouts of "verbosity" could attest, but I really am already late at dealing with some things, and must be leaving soon. '''I expect that I can have a more thorough summation available some time tomorrow, but know I might possibly be too busy to make as thorough a response as I would like to for several days.''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Necessity|it]] [[Kenosis|goes]]''[[Eternity|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Awareness|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::I will await your detailed response then. I never said you have to remove non-PD images, just the <tt>link=</tt> parameters of them, because otherwise there are no links to the file description pages. You could also create an "image credits" page.    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    11:10, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Bob Black

2014-10-25T11:08:42Z

FDMS4: RE

== images ==
{{ping|Kalki}} Please read [[WQ:IMAGE]]: ''The connection between the images used and the subject matter of the page as a whole, and individual quotes on it, should be obvious and specific.'' (underlining by me) – you can't just say "he is ''against fascist methods of suppression'' → each and every quote of him is directly related to anarchism and the specific ideas each symbol stands for". For example, "You may be wondering if I'm joking or serious. I'm joking and serious." has no ''obvious'' relation to anarchism. Or, how is "Play is always voluntary. What might otherwise be play is work if it's forced. This is axiomatic." related to Wikipedia? Also, please remove the link parameters from the non-PD images on your userpage, ignoring the attribution requirement is a copyright violation.    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    21:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
: The last version of that page I can recognize as entirely VALID and legitimately in accord with Wiki principles is probably sometime shortly after it began to be altered from its clearly [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Image_use_policy&oldid=1277329 '''LEGITIMATE state in April 2011]'''. The current state of '''[[Wikiquote:Image use policy|IT]]''' is something I have sometimes commented upon, but far more often have suppressed MANY of my urges to comment upon, thus far, ''for some years'', though it provides a VERY rich TEACHING tool as to the vile '''ABUSES''' of abilities not expressly suppressed in such ways as most people would be likely to be aware of, to develop means of overtly SUPPRESSING vital and useful abilities many people fail to appreciate, but '''I believe I have made it plain in past months and years that I consider it, in its current state, one of the WORST pieces of INVALID and ILLEGITIMATE pieces of crap which exists on this wiki''', which was specifically tailored by a few EITHER hostile to images in general, for various reasons, or in at least one case, simply to ME personally, to effectively intimidate, suppress and overrule MANY legitimate uses of images. I consider it part of a concerted effort by a very FEW people, taking advantage of the general apathy of many, '''IGNORING the principles with which the wikis were founded, the principles which were clearly explicated for years in many of the guidelines provided at Wikipedia, and CORRUPTING the practices, to make what were ultimately ILLEGITIMATE intrusions and suppression of IDEAS and PRESENTATION rights SEEM legitimate. ''' I actually do NOT agree with all of Blacks apparent ideas or statements or attitudes, but '''I believe the images in which some of them are used to caption the images ARE appropriate to HOW he is using some of the terms he uses, and how he is applying them''', and rather obviously so, to anyone not either deliberately or constitutionally obtuse or asinine. I have MANY MORE ideas on my mind on how to respond to your arguments, and some of the points you attempt to make, and other situations you are referring to — but unfortunately I do not have time to develop them all right now, as I must soon be leaving for at least several hours — with perhaps only a brief ability to check in on things here at a couple opportunities. But as to your closing claim that I must remove all non PD images from my user pages — that I believe is ludicrous, because I believe that the general stance on their usage on Wikimedia projects is that the attributions provided on the linked image pages are sufficient in conforming to any licensing requirements. There is actually MUCH more I am inclined to say, as those familiar with my bouts of "verbosity" could attest, but I really am already late at dealing with some things, and must be leaving soon. '''I expect that I can have a more thorough summation available some time tomorrow, but know I might possibly be too busy to make as thorough a response as I would like to for several days.''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Necessity|it]] [[Kenosis|goes]]''[[Eternity|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Awareness|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::I will await your detailed response then. I never said you have to remove non-PD images, just the <tt>link=</tt> parameters of them, because otherwise there are no links to the file description pages. You could also create a "image credits" page.    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    11:08, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Bob Black

2014-10-24T21:20:38Z

FDMS4: ping

Bob Black

2014-10-24T19:57:39Z

FDMS4: – images failing to meet WQ:IMAGE#Relevance

[[File:Bob Black (2011 BAAB).JPG|thumb|right| If your [[language]] lacks [[poetry]] and [[paradox]], it’s unequal to the task of accounting for actuality. Otherwise anything radically new is literally unspeakable.]]
'''[[w:Bob Black|Bob Black]]''' (born [[4 January]] [[1951]]) is an American anarchist writer.

== Quotes ==
[[File:Möbius resistor.svg|thumb|right|l up the vigilante, l'm a [[law]] unto myself but break it anyway! l made a forced landing on the [[w:Möbius strip|Moebius Strip]] and now l want to know, which side are you on?]]

* '''I'm the out-of-court [[jester]] who won't settle, I up the vigilante, I'm a [[law]] unto myself but break it anyway! I made a forced landing on the [[w:Möbius strip|Moebius Strip]] and now I want to know, which side are you on?'''
** ''The Abolition of Work and Other Essays'' (1986), p. 14

=== The Libertarian as Conservative (1984) ===
:[http://www.inspiracy.com/black/abolition/libertarian.html Essay developed from an address to the Eris Society in Aspen Colorado (August 1984)]

* '''A [[libertarian]] is just a [[Republican]] who takes [[drugs]].'''

* There are libertarians who try to retrieve libertarianism from the [[w:Libertarian Party (United States)|Libertarian Party]] just as there are Christians who try to reclaim [[Christianity]] from Christendom and communists (I’ve tried to myself) who try to save [[communism]] from the Communist parties and states. They (and I) meant well but we lost.

* My target is what most libertarians have in common — with each other, and with their ostensible enemies. Libertarians serve the state all the better because they declaim against it. At bottom, they want what it wants. But you can’t want what the state wants without wanting the state, for what the state wants is the conditions in which it flourishes.

* My (unfriendly) approach to modern society is to regard it as an integrated totality. '''Silly doctrinaire theories which regard the state as a parasitic excrescence on society cannot explain its centuries-long persistence, its ongoing encroachment upon what was previously market terrain, or its acceptance by the overwhelming majority of people including its demonstrable victims.'''

* To demonize state [[authoritarianism]] while ignoring identical albeit contract-consecrated subservient arrangements in the large-scale corporations which control the [[world]] [[economy]] is fetishism at its worst.

* '''If your language lacks [[poetry]] and [[paradox]], it’s unequal to the task of accounting for actuality. Otherwise anything radically new is literally unspeakable.'''

* You might object that what I’ve said may apply to the minarchist majority of libertarians, but not to the self-styled anarchists among them. Not so. '''To my mind a right-wing anarchist is just a minarchist who’d abolish the state to his own satisfaction by calling it something else.''' But this incestuous family squabble is no affair of mine. Both camps call for partial or complete privatization of state functions but neither questions the functions themselves. '''They don’t denounce what the state does, they just object to who’s doing it.''' This is why the people most victimized by the state display the least interest in [[libertarianism]]. '''Those on the receiving end of coercion don’t quibble over their coercers’ credentials.''' If you can’t pay or don’t want to, you don’t much care if your deprivation is called larceny or taxation or restitution or rent. '''If you like to control your own [[time]], you distinguish employment from [[enslavement]] only in degree and duration. '''

* Without even entering into the question of the [[world economy]]’s ultimate dictation within narrow limits of everybody’s productive activity, it’s apparent that the source of the greatest direct duress experienced by the ordinary adult is not the state but rather the business that employs him. '''Your foreman or supervisor gives you more or-else orders in a week than the police do in a decade.'''

* Some people giving orders and others obeying them: this is the essence of servitude. Of course, as [[w:John Hospers|Hospers]] smugly observes, “one can at least change jobs,” but you can’t avoid having a job — just as under statism one can at least change nationalities but you can’t avoid subjection to one nation-state or another. '''But [[freedom]] means more than the right to change masters.'''

* '''Most work serves the predatory purposes of commerce and coercion and can be abolished outright. The rest can be automated away and/or transformed — by the experts, the workers who do it — into creative, playlike pastimes whose variety and conviviality will make extrinsic inducements like the capitalist carrot and the Communist stick equally obsolete.''' In the hopefully impending meta-industrial revolution, libertarian communists revolting against work will settle accounts with “libertarians” and “Communists” working against revolt. And then we can go for the gusto!

* [[Murray Rothbard]] thinks egalitarianism is a revolt against [[nature]], but his day is 24 hours long, just like everybody else’s. If you spend most of your waking life taking orders or kissing ass, if you get habituated to hierarchy, you will become passive-aggressive, sado-masochistic, servile and stupefied, and you will carry that load into every aspect of the balance of your life. Incapable of living a life of liberty, you’ll settle for one of its ideological representations, like libertarianism. '''You can’t treat values like workers, hiring and firing them at will and assigning each a place in an imposed division of labor. The taste for freedom and pleasure can’t be compartmentalized.'''

* Libertarians complain that the state is parasitic, an excrescence on society. They think it’s like a tumor you could cut out, leaving the patient just as he was, only healthier. '''They’ve been mystified by their own [[metaphors]]. Like the market, the state is an activity, not an entity.''' The only way to abolish the state is to change the way of life it forms a part of. That way of life, if you call that living, revolves around work and takes in bureaucracy, moralism, schooling, money, and more. Libertarians are conservatives because they avowedly want to maintain most of this mess and so unwittingly perpetuate the rest of the racket. But they’re bad conservatives because they’ve forgotten the reality of institutional and ideological interconnection which was the original insight of the historical conservatives. Entirely out of touch with the real currents of contemporary resistance, they denounce practical opposition to the system as “[[nihilism]],” “Luddism,” and other big words they don’t understand. '''A glance at the world confirms that their utopian capitalism just can’t compete with the state. With enemies like libertarians, the state doesn’t need friends.'''

=== [[w:The Abolition of Work|The Abolition of Work]] (1985) ===
:[http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm "The Abolition of Work" (1985) online at Deoxy.org]

* '''No one should ever work. ''' Work is the source of nearly all the misery in the world. Almost all the evil you'd care to name comes from working or from living in a world designed for work. '''In order to stop suffering, we have to stop working.''' That doesn't mean we have to stop doing things. It does mean creating a new way of life based on play; in other words, a ''ludic'' revolution. By "play" I mean also festivity, creativity, conviviality, commensality, and maybe even art. There is more to play than child's play, as worthy as that is. I call for a collective adventure in generalized joy and freely interdependent exuberance. Play isn't passive.

* '''These experts who offer to do our thinking for us rarely share their conclusions about work, for all its saliency in the lives of all of us. Among themselves they quibble over the details.''' Unions and management agree that we ought to sell the time of our lives in exchange for survival, although they haggle over the price. Marxists think we should be bossed by bureaucrats. Libertarians think we should be bossed by businessmen. Feminists don't care which form bossing takes so long as the bosses are women. Clearly these ideology-mongers have serious differences over how to divvy up the spoils of power. Just as clearly, none of them have any objection to [[power]] as such and all of them want to keep us working. '''You may be wondering if I'm joking or serious. I'm joking ''and'' serious.''' To be ludic is not to be ludicrous. Play doesn't have to be frivolous, although frivolity isn't triviality: very often we ought to take frivolity seriously. I'd like life to be a game — but a game with high stakes. I want to play ''for keeps''.

* I am not playing definitional games with anybody. When I say I want to abolish work, I mean just what I say, but I want to say what I mean by defining my terms in non-idiosyncratic ways. '''My minimun definition of work is ''forced labor'', that is, compulsory production.''' Both elements are essential. '''Work is production enforced by economic or political means, by the carrot or the stick.''' (The carrot is just the stick by other means.) But not all creation is work. Work is never done for its own sake, it's done on account of some product or output that the worker (or, more often, somebody else) gets out of it. This is what work necessarily is. '''To define it is to despise it.''' But work is usually even worse than its definition decrees. '''The dynamic of domination intrinsic to work tends over time toward elaboration. In advanced work-riddled societies, including all industrial societies whether capitalist or "communist," work invariably acquires other attributes which accentuate its obnoxiousness.''' Usually—and this is even more true in "communist" than capitalist countries, where the state is almost the only employer and everyone is an employee — '''work is employment, i.e., wage-labor, which means selling yourself on the installment plan.''' Thus 95% of Americans who work, work for somebody (or some''thing'') else. In the USSR or Cuba or Yugoslavia or Nicaragua or any other alternative model which might be adduced, the corresponding figure approaches 100%. Only the embattled Third World peasant bastions — Mexico, India, Brazil, Turkey — temporarily shelter significant concentrations of agriculturists who perpetuate the traditional arrangement of most laborers in the last several millennia, the payment of taxes (ransom) to the state or rent to parasitic landlords in return for being otherwise left alone. Even this raw deal is beginning to look good.''' ''All'' industrial (and office) workers are employees and under the sort of surveillance which ensures servility.'''

* '''Play is always voluntary. What might otherwise be play is work if it's forced. This is axiomatic.'''

* Work makes a mockery of freedom. The official line is that we all have rights and live in a democracy. Other unfortunates who aren't free like we are have to live in police states. These victims obey orders or-else, no matter how arbitrary. The authorities keep them under regular surveillance. State bureaucrats control even the smaller details of everyday life. The officials who push them around are answerable only to the higher-ups, public or private. '''Either way, dissent and disobedience are punished. Informers report regularly to the authorities.''' All this is supposed to be a very bad thing. '''And so it is, although it is nothing but a description of the modern workplace. '''The liberals and conservatives and libertarians who lament totalitarianism are phonies and hypocrites. There is more freedom in any moderately de-Stalinized dictatorship than there is in the ordinary American workplace.''' You find the same sort of hierarchy and discipline in an office or factory as you do in a prison or a monastery.''' In fact, as Foucault and others have shown, prisons and factories came in at about the same time, and their operators consciously borrowed from each other's control techniques. '''A worker is a part-time slave.''' The boss says when to show up, when to leave, and what to do in the meantime. He tells you how much work to do and how fast. He is free to carry his control to humiliating extremes, regulating, if he feels like it, the clothes you wear or how often you go to the bathroom. With a few exceptions he can fire you for any reason, or no reason. He has you spied on by snitches and supervisors; he amasses a dossier on every employee. Talking back is called "insubordination," just as if a worker is a naughty child, and it not only gets you fired, it disqualifies you for unemployment compensation.

* We are so close to the world of work that we can't see what it does to us. We have to rely on outside observers from other times or other cultures to appreciate the extremity and the pathology of our present position.

* [[Socrates]] said that manual laborers make bad friends and bad citizens because they have no time to fulfill the responsibilities of [[friendship]] and [[citizenship]]. He was right. Because of work, no matter what we do we keep looking at our watches. The only thing "free" about so-called free time is that it doesn't cost the boss anything. '''Free time is mostly devoted to getting ready for work, going to work, returning from work, and recovering from work.''' Free time is a euphemism for the peculiar way labor as a factor of production not only transports itself at its own expense to and from the workplace but assumes primary responsibility for its own maintenance and repair. Coal and steel don't do that. Lathes and typewriters don't do that. But workers do.

* '''What I really want to see is work turned into play.''' A first step is to discard the notions of a "job" and an "occupation." Even activities that already have some ludic content lose most of it by being reduced to jobs which certain people, and only those people, are forced to do to the exclusion of all else. Is it not odd that farm workers toil painfully in the fields while their airconditioned masters go home every weekend and putter about in their gardens? '''Under a system of permanent revelry, we will witness the Golden Age of the dilettante which will put the Renaissance to shame. There won't be any more jobs, just things to do and people to do them.'''

* '''No one can say what would result from unleashing the creative power stultified by work. Anything can happen.''' The tiresome debater's problem of freedom vs. necessity, with its theological overtones, resolves itself practically once the production of use-values is co-extensive with the consumption of delightful play activity. Life will become a game, or rather many games, but not—as it is now — a zero/sum game. '''An optimal sexual encounter is the paradigm of productive play. The participants potentiate each other's pleasures, nobody keeps score, and everybody wins. The more you give, the more you get.''' In the ludic life, the best of sex will diffuse into the better part of daily life. Generalized play leads to the libidinization of life. Sex, in turn, can become less urgent and desperate, more playful. <center> '''If we play our cards right, we can all get more out of life than we put into it; but only if we play for keeps. <big> No one should ever work. <big>Workers of the world. . . ''relax! '''''</big> </big> </center>

=== ''Anarchy after Leftism'' (1997) ===
:[http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bob-black-anarchy-after-leftism ''Anarchy after Leftism'' (1997)]

* '''Cleansed of its leftist residues, anarchy — [[anarchism]] minus [[Marxism]] — will be free to get better at being what it is.'''
** Introduction

* Although it is by definition a union-oriented ideology, there is no perceptible syndicalist presence in any union. A syndicalist is more likely to be a professor than a proletarian, more likely to be a folk singer than a factory worker. Organizers on principle, syndicalists are disunited and factionalized. Remarkably, this dullest of all anarchisms attracts some of the most irrational and hysterical adherents. Only a rather small minority of North American anarchists are syndicalists. Syndicalism will persist, if at all, as a campus-based cult in increasing isolation from the main currents of anarchism.
** Chapter 11: Anarchy after Leftism

* There is life after the left. And there is anarchy after anarchism. '''Post-leftist anarchists are striking off in many directions. Some may find the way — better yet, the ways — to a [[free]] [[future]].'''
** Chapter 11: Anarchy after Leftism

== External links ==
{{Wikipedia}}
* [http://inspiracy.com/black/ The entire text of Bob Black’s 1986 collection ''The Abolition of Work and Other Essays'' at Inspiracy]
* [http://www.zpub.com/notes/black.html The Abolition of Work]
* [http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/black/ Spunk Library]
* [http://www.inspiracy.com/minitrue/index.html Gerry Reith archive at Inspiracy ]
* [http://futurenexus.blogspot.com Future Nexus ]
* [http://www.seesharppress.com/listen.html Listen Anarchist!] a critique by [[w:Chaz Bufe|Chaz Bufe]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Black, Bob}}
[[Category:Americans]]
[[Category:Anarchists]]
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:Living people]]

Nigel Farage

2014-09-09T20:33:25Z

FDMS4: Undo revision 1747653 by Olaf Kosinsky (talk): Per WQ:IMAGE ("Images should directly support or embody the theme of the provided quotes".), him speaking is better here.

[[File:Nigel Farage MEP.jpg|thumb|right|"I have been called a great many things in my time – that's politics."]]
'''[[w:Nigel Farage|Nigel Paul Farage]]''' (born [[3 April]] [[1964]]) is an [[w:England|English]] [[w:Member of the European Parliament|MEP]], and the current leader of the [[w:UKIP|UK Independence Party]].

== Sourced ==
*"I think that politics needs a bit of spicing up."
**In response to criticism of an anti-euro advertisement which showed [[Adolf Hitler]] promoting the single currency.
**[http://articles.cnn.com/2002-07-03/world/eu.hitlerad_1_anti-euro-appearance-by-rock-star-euro-currency?_s=PM:WORLD Hitler anti-euro ad condemned], ''CNN'', 3 July 2002.
*"We seek an amicable divorce from the [[w:European Union|European Union]] and its replacement with a genuine free-trade agreement, which is what my parents' generation thought we’d signed up for in the first place."
**[http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/ukipnewsissue56.pdf UKIP news, issue 56], July 2004.
*"You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, […] that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?". I'd never heard of you. Nobody in Europe had ever heard of you. I would like to ask you, President, who voted for you, and what mechanism … oh, I know democracy isn't popular with you lot, and what mechanism the people of Europe have to remove you? Is this European democracy? Well, I sense, I sense though that you are competent and capable and dangerous, and I have no doubt in your intention, to be the quiet assassin of European democracy, and of the European nation states. You appear to have a loathing for the very concept of the existence of nation states - perhaps that's because you come from Belgium, which is pretty much a non-country. But since you took over, we've seen Greece reduced to nothing more than a protectorate. Sir, you have no legitimacy in this job at all, and I can say with confidence that I speak on behalf of the majority of British people in saying: We don't know you, we don't want you, and the sooner you're put out to grass, the better."
**Speech in the European Parliament, 24 February 2010.
**[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/25/nigel-farage-herman-van-rompuy-damp-rag Ukip's Nigel Farage tells Van Rompuy: You have the charisma of a damp rag], ''The Guardian'', 24 February 2010.
*"I have been called a great many things in my time – that's politics."
**Upon being fined €2,980 for "inappropriate behaviour" towards [[w:Herman Van Rompuy|Herman Van Rompuy, EU President]].
**[http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/02/nigel-farage-fined-mep-rompuy Nigel Farage fined for verbal attack on EU president], ''The Guardian'', 2 March 2010.
*"And I honestly predict that I mean this. That if we go on doing this to Greece. We will drive that country into, a violent revolution."
**Segment of a speech, held in a UKIP meeting on 21 February 2012. When Nigel Farage spoke about the austerity measures impleted into Greece.
**[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFlYhUkO2uU&list=PL25613E6F90B320EC&index=9&feature=plpp_video Greece being destroyed by EU fanatical ideology]
*"And what is the reaction of the British politcal class? Well the Lib Dems, still think that the Euro is a success! I don't quiet think where Cleggy gets this from, I don't know. Prehaps he is cosidering an alternative career, as a stand up comedian, once he's out of politics."
**Another segment of a speech held in a UKIP meeting on 21 February 2012. When Nigel Farage explains on the reactions on Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem politicians on the failing Euro currency.
**[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ugNOj8JsXY&list=PL25613E6F90B320EC&index=8&feature=plpp_video Nigel Farage met Angel Merkel]
*"When people stand up and talk about the great success that the EU has been, I'm not sure anybody saying it really believes it themselves anymore."
**Speech in the European Parliment, 9 May 2012.
**[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ6_Ey_MJV4&list=PL25613E6F90B320EC&index=14&feature=plpp_video Farage: We face the prospect of mass civil unrest, even revolution]
*"It is virtually impossible for what you are voting on to remain as it is currently. There could be huge changes to the treaty and there could be huge changes to the euro zone itself."
**Interview in the Irish Times newspaper, 17 May 2012.
**[http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0517/1224316240473.html Anti-treaty campaign claims single currency may collapse]
*“The EU is mired in deep structural crisis. Greece, Portugal and Ireland cannot survive inside the Euro.”
**Segment from an article in the New York Times newspaper, 18 May 2012.
**[http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/can-europe-be-saved-should-it/ Can Europe be saved? Should it?]
*"If Spain goes, Europe on its own will not be big enough to save the banks."
*"The situation in Greece just goes from bad to worse. We’ve now got a situation where there was the big suicide a few weeks ago, where a 77-year-old man shot himself in the head outside the Greek Parliament. That was the public face of what’s gone wrong."
*"But do you know that every day there are people that are literally leaving their children at the doors of the Greek Orthodox Church, with notes around their necks saying, ‘We cannot afford to feed or look after these children, please take them from us.’ Can you imagine that?"
*"This is taking place inside Europe. This is taking place inside a once great nation. The nation that invented democracy. We are on the edge of total social breakdown. And frankly, as far as the euro is concerned and the austerity measures are concerned, the medicine is killing the patient."
*"I do think that the banking system is now in the most perilous state we’ve seen in over 70 years.”
**Segments from an article on the UKIP website, 31 May 2012.
**[http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2681-on-the-edge-of-social-breakdown On the edge of social breakdown]
*"The euro Titanic has now hit the iceberg - and there simply aren't enough lifeboats to go round."
**Segment from a speech held in the European Parliament in Strasbourg, 13 June 2012
**[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_1mF-3JTI&list=PL25613E6F90B320EC&index=27&feature=plpp_video The Genius of Mutual Indebtedness - Nigel Farage]
*"Basically, Herman van Rompuy wants the European Union to become a debt union, which may be acceptable to some of the southern countries who are effectively bust. To the northern countries, it is not."
**Segment from an article on the UKIP website, 29 June 2012.
**[http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2703-welcome-to-the-deurobt-union Welcome to the D€bt Union]
*"If we are just going to have a fudged referendum on 'do we stay in or go further?' then that's not good enough."
**Segment from a BBC News interview, 2 July 2012.
**[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18669796 Farage: 'Fudged referendum on EU is no good']
*"Once again, I challenge the Prime Minister to have an open debate with me on why he believes we must stay part of this failing, corrupt EU. The future of our nation is at stake. Mr Cameron, you have my phone number."
**Quote by Nigel Farage on an article written by himself in the Telegraph, 6th July 2012.
**[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9378567/The-time-will-never-be-right-for-David-Cameron-to-hold-a-referendum-on-the-EU.html The time will never be right for David Cameron to hold a referendum on the EU.]
*"As you are well aware, the last time the people of this country were given a say on membership of the European Union was back in 1975. This must have been a factor in your thinking when, in 2007, you gave a “cast-iron guarantee” to hold a referendum if you became Prime Minister. Since that promise, however, your message on the issue has been confusing and misleading. You say the time is not right but refuse to clarify when the time will be right. You believe that leaving would not be in our best interests and an in/out referendum is flawed because it offers a “single choice”. In last week’s Sun poll, almost 70 per cent of voters said they would like a referendum. In the same poll, a clear majority said they would like to leave the EU and yet your plans would deny them that opportunity. I believe the British people, along with many of your own backbench MPs, want and deserve a straight in/out choice in a referendum. I propose a public debate between us where we can put our respective cases forward. My challenge to you is an open and honest one and I hope you will afford me, and the people of this country, a proper say on the matter."
**Letter from Nigel Farage that was hand delivered to 10 Downing Street by Nigel Farage himself, challenging the Prime Minister to an open debate on the EU, 16 July 2012.
**[http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2719-nigel-delivers-challenge-to-downing-street Nigel delivers challenge to Downing Street.]
*"We know the costs of Europe. What are the benefits?”
**Quote by Nigel Farage on an article in The Sun, 1 August 2012.
**[http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4465801/British-taxpayers-paid-a-record-192BILLION-to-the-EU.html Record bill for EU is £19bn]
*“Rather than bring peace and harmony, the EU will cause insurgency and violence.”
**Quote by Nigel Farage on an article in the Zimbabwe Independent, regarding the EU winning the Nobel Peace Prize, 19 October 2012.
**[http://www.theindependent.co.zw/2012/10/19/nobel-peace-prize-really-deserves-a-new-name/ Nobel Peace Prize really deserves a new name.]
*"I'm not for sale, neither is UKIP."
**Quote by Nigel Farage on rumours that the Conservative party should have a pact with UKIP, 27 November 2012.
**[http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/360871 Nigel Farage: 'I'm not for sale, neither is UKIP']
*"The opening of the doors to 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians is going to become a huge issue."
**Stating the populations of the two East European countries.
**[http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/289618/Britain-to-be-swamped-by-millions-of-immigrants/ Britain to be 'swamped' by millions of immigrants], ''Daily Star'', 24 December 2012.
*"We wouldn't want to be like the Swiss, would we? That would be awful! We'd be rich!"
**Quote by Nigel Farage on David Cameron's speech on Britain's relationship with the European Union, 23 January 2013.
**[http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/ukip-nigel-farage-david-cameron-eu-referendum-speech Ukip's Nigel Farage ridicules David Cameron's EU referendum speech.]
*"I am delighted at Des's support in these elections. And thank him for his rewrite of the lyrics of Send in the Clowns which we are planning to sing at our South East conference."
**In response to Des Lynam's recent support and vote on UKIP, during the May 2013 local elections.
**[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10049891/Des-Lynam-reveals-he-voted-Ukip.html Des Lynam reveals he voted UKIP, 10 May 2013.]
*"If this is the face of Scottish nationalism, it's a pretty ugly nation."
**Hitting back at pro-Scottish independence protesters, after an incident at an Edinburgh pub.
**[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183 Nigel Farage blasts 'fascist' nationalists after Edinburgh confrontation, 17 May 2013.]
*"Absolutely none. But rather more than the BBC do. We could have had this interview in England a couple of years ago, although I wouldn’t have met with such hatred that I’m getting from your questions, and frankly I’ve had enough of this interview. Goodbye."
**During a phone call on BBC's Good Morning Scotland radio show (regarding the incident in Edinburgh), in which an angry Nigel Farage hung up after stating that the interview was unpleasant and offensive, 17 May 2013.
**[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326042/Nigel-Farage-ends-BBC-interview-calling-Scottish-nationalists-fascist-scum.html 'Scottish nationalists are fascist scum': Farage rages against pub protesters before hanging up on BBC for 'hate' filled interview.]
{{disputed begin}}

== Disputed ==
*"We will never win the nigger vote. The nig-nogs will never vote for us"
**According to [[w:Alan Sked|Alan Sked]], Farage said this after UKIP failed to make a significant impact in the [[w:United Kingdom general election, 1997|1997 general election]]. Sked has been strongly opposed to the party's leadership since the late 1990s, and the quotation cannot be verified independently.
**[http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/feb/06/otherparties.politicalcolumnists No truth behind Veritas], Nick Cohen, writing in ''The Observer'', 6 February 2005.
{{disputed end}}

== External links ==
{{Wikipedia}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Farage, Nigel}}
[[Category:British politicians]]
[[Category:English people]]
[[Category:Living people]]

Skyfall

2014-09-05T23:44:41Z

FDMS4: /* Dialogue */ typography

'''''[[w:Skyfall (film)|Skyfall]]''''' is a [[w:2012 in film|2012 film]] in the [[w:James Bond in film|''James Bond'' series]] of spy films, and centres on Bond investigating an attack on [[w:Secret Intelligence Service|MI6]], part of a plot by former MI6 operative Raoul Silva to humiliate, discredit and ultimately kill [[w:M (James Bond)|M]] as revenge against her for betraying him.
:''Directed by [[w:Sam Mendes|Sam Mendes]]. Written by [[w:Neal Purvis and Robert Wade|Neal Purvis, Robert Wade]] and [[w:John Logan (writer)|John Logan]].''

== James Bond ==
* ''[to Eve, as one of the wing mirrors of her Land Rover is smashed during a car chase.]'' It's all right. You weren't using it.
* ''[re. the porcelain bulldog on M's desk.]'' The whole office goes up in smoke and that bloody thing survives?
* ''[as a Chinese henchman attempts to use his Q Branch-issued firearm, which is palm-print operated, against him.]'' Good luck with that. ''[the gun jams, and the henchman is attacked by a Komodo dragon.]''
* ''[Silva has just shot Sévérine in the head whilst playing William Tell, causing the glass of scotch on her head to topple to the ground.]'' Waste of good scotch.
* ''[to Silva, as British military choppers appear overhead.]'' The latest thing from Q Branch. It's called a radio.
* ''[to Kincade.]'' Some men are coming to kill us. We're going to kill them first.
* ''[Silva is coming with a helicopter to Skyfall]'' Always gotta make an entrance.
* ''[as he prepares to leave Skyfall, his boyhood home, as it burns to the ground.]'' I always hated this place.

== Raoul Silva ==
*''[repeated line, onscreen text that appears on M's computer screen.]'' Think on your sins.
*''[first lines.]'' Hello James, welcome. Do you like the island? ''[chuckles.]'' My grandmother had an island when I was a boy. Nothing to boast of. You could walk along it in an hour. But still, it was - it was a paradise for us. One summer, we came for a visit and discovered the whole place had been infested with rats. They'd come on a fishing boat and had gorged themselves on coconut. So how do you get rats off an island, hmm? My grandmother showed me. We buried an oil drum, and hinged the lid. Then we wired coconut to the lid as bait. The rats come for the coconut, and... ''[imitates metallic scuttering.]'' They fall into the drum, and after a month, you've trapped all the rats. But what did you do then? Throw the drum into the ocean? Burn it? No. You just ''leave it''. And they begin to get hungry, then one by one... ''[imitates rat munching sound.]'' They start eating each other, until there are only two left. The two survivors. And then what - do you kill them? No. You take them, and release them into the trees. Only now, they don't eat coconut anymore. Now they will only eat rat. You have changed their nature. The two survivors; this is what she made us.
*''[onscreen text, as his laptop breaches Q Branch's security, unlocking his holding cell.]'' Not such a clever boy.
*''[to his henchmen, about M]'' Everyone, listen to me! Don't you dare touch her! She's ''mine''!
*Do you see what comes of all this running around, Mr. Bond? All this jumping and fighting, it's exhausting! Relax. You need to relax... Ah well, mother's calling. I will give her a good-bye kiss for you.

== M ==
* ''[Addressing a parliamentary committee.]'' Chairman, ministers, I've repeatedly heard how irrelevant my department has become. Why do we need agents, the 00 section? Isn't it all rather quaint? Well, I suppose I see a different world than you do, and the truth is that what I see frightens me. I'm frightened because our enemies are no longer known to us. They do not exist on a map, they aren't nations. They are individuals. And look around you - who do you fear? Can you see a face, a uniform, a flag? No, our world is not more transparent now, it's more opaque! ''It's in the shadows'' - that's where we must do battle. So before you declare us irrelevant, ask yourselves - ''how safe do you feel''? Just one more thing to say. My late husband was a great lover of poetry, and um - I suppose some of it sunk in, despite my best intentions. And here today, I remember this, I think, from [[Tennyson]]: ''We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, '''and not to yield'''.''
* Too many people are dying because of me.
* Orphans always make the best recruits.

== Kincade ==
*''[showing M a concealed passage under Bond's family home.]'' The night I told him his parents had died, he hid in here for two days. When he did come out, he wasn't a boy anymore.
* ''[after shooting two of Silva's men dead.]'' Welcome to Scotland.

== Dialogue ==
:''[Bond and Patrice, an assassin, are fighting atop a train for possession of the stolen hard drive. As they emerge from a tunnel and onto a viaduct, Eve has them in the crosshairs of a rifle.]''
:'''Eve''': I may have a shot. ''[beat.]'' It's not clean. Repeat, I do ''not'' have a clean shot.
:''[The train's whistle blares as it approach another tunnel.]''
:'''Eve''': There's a tunnel ahead. I'm going to lose them.
:'''M''': Can you get into a better position?
:'''Eve''': Negative, there's no time.
:'''M''': ''[beat.]'' Take the shot.
:''[Eve hesitates.]''
:'''M''': I said take the shot!
:'''Eve''': I can't, I may hit Bond!
:'''M''': ''Take the bloody shot!''
:''[Eve fires. Bond, hit, falls backwards from the train into the river below. Eve sees Patrice, still holding the hard drive, disappear into the tunnel. Back at MI6, there is a long silence.]''
:'''Eve''': ''[on speaker-phone, solemn.]'' Agent down.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[M comes into her apartment. As she opens a bottle of alcohol, she notices that Bond is also in the room. She turns around to see him in the dark.'']
:'''M''': Where the hell have you been?
:'''James Bond''': Enjoying death. 007 reporting for duty.
:''[M turns on the light to reveal Bond. He is drinking some alcohol.]''
:'''M''': Why didn't you call?
:'''James Bond''': You didn't get the postcard? You should try it sometime. Get away from it all. It really lends perspective.
:'''M''': Ran out of drink where you were, did they?
:'''James Bond''': What was it you said? ''Take the bloody shot.''
:'''M''': I made a judgment call.
:'''James Bond''': You should have trusted me to finish the job.
:'''M''': It was a possibility of losing you or the certainty of losing all those other agents. I made the only decision I could and you know it.
:'''James Bond''': I think you lost your nerve.
:'''M''': What are you expecting? A bloody apology? You know the rules of the game. You've been playing it long enough. We both have.
:'''James Bond''': Maybe too long.
:'''M''': Speak for yourself.
:'''James Bond''': Ronson didn't make it, did he?
:'''M''': No.
:'''James Bond''': So this is it. We're both played out.
:'''M''': If you believed that, why did you come back?
:'''James Bond''': ''[sarcastically]'' Good question.
:'''M''': Because we're under attack. And you know we need you.
:'''James Bond''': ''[sighs]'' Why me?

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond enters the interrogation room to take his psychological test]''
:'''Doctor Hall''': I'd like to start with some simple word associations. Just tell me the first work that pops into your head. For example, I say, "Day" and you might say…
:'''James Bond''': Wasted.
:'''Doctor Hall''': All right. Gun?
:'''James Bond''': Shot.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Agent.
:'''James Bond''': Provocateur.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Woman?
:'''James Bond''': Provocatrix.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Heart?
:'''James Bond''': Target.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Bird?
:'''James Bond''': Sky.
:'''Doctor Hall''': M.
:'''James Bond''': Bitch.
:''[quick cut to M in the observation room, not amused]''
:'''Doctor Hall''': Sunlight?
:'''James Bond''': Swim.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Moonlight?
:'''James Bond''': Dance.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Murder.
:'''James Bond''': Employment.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Country.
:'''James Bond''': England.
:'''Doctor Hall''': Skyfall. ''[Bond says nothing]'' Skyfall.
:'''James Bond''': Done. ''[walks out]''
:''[M is not impressed.]''
:'''Gareth Mallory''': ''[to M; sarcastic]'' This is going well.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond and Eve meet for the first time since she accidentally shot him]''
:'''James Bond''': I am sorry, but we have met before?
:'''Eve''': I am the one who should say sorry.
:'''James Bond''': It was only four ribs; some of the less vital organs. Nothing major. ''[he and Eve walk into a big room of the building.]'' Not enough excitement in Istanbul?
:'''Eve''': I've been reassigned. Temporary suspension from field work.
:'''James Bond''': Really?
:'''Eve''': Mm. Something to do with killing 007.
:'''James Bond''': Well, you gave it your best shot.
:'''Eve''': It was hardly my best shot.
:'''James Bond''': I'm not sure I can survive your best.
:'''Eve''': Doubt you'll get the chance.
:'''Bond''': Well, do me a favor, will you. If they do ever let you back out there, warn me first.
:'''Eve''': I'm assisting Gareth Mallory in the transition and then I'll be back in the field.
:'''James Bond''': It's what you want?
:'''Eve''': Yes, of course.
:'''James Bond''': It's not for everyone.
:''[Tanner comes into the big room.]''
:'''Tanner''': Ah, 007. It's this way.
:'''James Bond''': ''[to Eve.]'' In your defense, a moving target is much harder to hit.
:'''Eve''': Then you better keep moving.
<hr width="50%"/>

:''[At the National Gallery, Q, a scruffy-haired young man in thick glasses and a raincoat, sits down next to Bond, who is looking at [[w:The Fighting Temeraire|a painting]]. Bond looks at Q in disgust and suspicion.]''
:'''Q''': It always makes me feel a little melancholy - a grand old war ship, being ignominiously hauled away to scrap. The inevitability of time, don't you think? What do you see?
:'''James Bond''': A bloody big ship. Excuse me. ''[rising to leave.]''
:'''Q''': 007. I'm your new Quartermaster.
:'''James Bond''': You must be joking.
:'''Q''': Why, because I'm not wearing a lab coat?
:'''James Bond''': Because you still have spots.
:'''Q''': My complexion is hardly relevant.
:'''James Bond''': Your competence is.
:'''Q''': Age is no guarantee of efficiency.
:'''James Bond''': And youth is no guarantee of innovation.
:'''Q''': I'll hazard I can do more damage on my laptop sitting in my pyjamas before my first cup of Earl Grey than you can do in a year in the field.
:'''James Bond''': Oh, so why do you need me?
:'''Q''': Every now and then, a trigger has to be pulled.
:'''James Bond''': Or not pulled. It's hard to know which in your pyjamas. Q. ''[offers his hand.]''
:'''Q''': ''[shakes his hand.]'' 007.

<hr width="50%"/>
:'''James Bond''': ''[on receiving his equipment from Q.]'' A gun and a radio. It's not exactly Christmas, is it?
:'''Q''': Were you expecting [[w:GoldenEye|an exploding pen]]? We don't really go in for that anymore.

<hr width="50%"/>
:'''Eve''': ''[watches Bond shave]'' Cut-throat razor. How very traditional.
:'''James Bond''': ''[suggestively]'' Well, I like to do some things the old-fashioned way.
:'''Eve''': ''[smiles]'' Sometimes the old ways are best.
<hr width="50%"/>

:''[Silva has just revealed Bond's actual performance evaluation.]''
:'''Raoul Silva''': What is this if not betrayal? She sent you after me, knowing you were not ready, knowing you would likely die. Mommy was very bad. ''[he unbuttons Bond's shirt, inspecting the scar on his shoulder. Winces.]'' Ooh. You see what she's done to you?
:'''James Bond''': Well, she never tied me to a chair.
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[deadpan]'' Her loss. ''[he continues to probe at Bond's chest, suggestively.]''
:'''James Bond''': ''[dubious]'' Are you sure this is about M?
:'''Raoul Silva''': It's about her. And you, and me. You see, we are the last two rats. We can either eat each other… ''[suggestive look]'' Or eat everyone else. Ah, you're trying to remember your training now - what's the regulation for this? ''[rests his hands on Bond's legs.]'' Well, first time for everything, yes?
:'''James Bond''': ''[unmoved]'' What makes you think this is my first time?
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[playful]'' Oh, Mister Bond! All the physical stuff so dumb. So dumb.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Silva is in isolation at MI6 headquarters]''
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[seeing M for the first time after years]'' You're smaller then I remember.
:'''M''': Whereas I barely remember you at all.
:'''Raoul Silva''': It's strange; for me, it just feels like yesterday. Are you surprised?
:'''M''': Not particularly, but then you always were a slippery one.
:'''Raoul Silva''': Maybe that's why you liked me so much.
:'''M''': You flatter yourself.
:'''Raoul Silva''': No remorse. Just as I had imagined.
:'''M''': Regret is unprofessional.
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[laughs]'' "Regret is unprofessional?" They kept me for five months in a room with no air. They tortured me and I protected your secrets. I protected you. But they made me suffer and suffer and suffer. Until I realized, it was ''you' who betrayed me.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Silva has just told M that he attempted to commit suicide by biting a cyanide capsule.]''
:'''M''': Mr. Silva, you're going to be transferred to Belmarsh Prison, where you will be remanded in custody, until the Crown Prosecution Service deem you fit to stand trial...
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[interrupts.]'' Say my name. Say it. My real name. I know you remember it.
:'''M''': Your name is on the memorial wall of the very building you attacked. I will have it struck off. Soon, your past will be as non-existent as your future. I'll never see you again.
:''[She and Bond begin to leave]''
:'''Raoul Silva''': Do you know what it does to you? ''[They stop]'' Hydrogen cyanide? ''[he goes down on one knee, and removes a dental prosthesis from his upper palate, causing his left cheek to sag and revealing a gaunt, misshapen face and a row of rotted teeth.]'' Look upon your work, mother.
:''[M and Bond leave the room. Silva puts his dental prosthesis back into his mouth and he laughs evilly.]''

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond is pursuing an escaped Silva through London's underground train tunnels. Q is tracking him from MI6 headquarters and communicating by radio.]''
:'''Q''': If you're through that door, you should be in the Tube.
:'''James Bond''': ''[deadpan]'' I'm in the Tube.
:'''Q''': Bond, this wasn't an escape, this was years in the planning. He wanted us to capture him, he wanted us to access his computer. It was all planned - blowing up HQ, knowing all the emergency protocols, knowing we'd retreat down here.
:'''James Bond''': I got all that. It's what he's got planned next that worries me.
:'''Q''': District line is the closest. There should be a service door on your left.
:'''James Bond''': Got it. ''[he tries the door handle]'' It won't open.
:'''Q''': Of course it will, put your back into it.
:'''James Bond''': Why don't ''you'' come down here and put your back into it?! ''[he tries again.]'' No, it's stuck. ''[a rumble is heard, and Bond looks along the tracks]'' Oh good. There's a train coming.
:'''Q''': Hmm. That's vexing.
:''[Bond tries to barge the door multiple times. Still will not open. He uses a pistol to shoot the door handle. The door opens and Bond slips into it.]''
:''' James Bond''': I'm through.
:'''Q''': Told you. We've alerted security. Police are on their way.
:''[Bond continues to find Silva.]''

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond is on a crowded platform at Temple Tube station, looking for Silva.]''
:'''James Bond''': There's too many people, I can't see him.
:'''Q''': Welcome to rush hour on the Tube. Not something you'd know much about.
:''[Q spots something on one of the CCTV footage monitors - a policeman getting onto the Tube train.]''
:'''James Bond''': The train's leaving. Do I get on the train?
:'''Q''': ''[hesitant.]'' Don't get on the train, I'm not sure he's on it. Give us a minute.
:''[Q enhances the footage he was just watching. The train starts to pull away, Bond still on the platform.]''
:'''James Bond''': ''[impatient.]'' Do I get on the train?
:''[Q freezes the footage of the policeman turning to face the camera. It is Silva in disguise.]''
:'''Q''': Bond?
:'''James Bond''': What?
:'''Q''': Get on the train.
:''[Bond chases after and jumps onto the end of the tube train, clinging onto the outer door.]''
:'''Man at Tube Station''': He's keen to get home.
:'''James Bond''': ''[to female train conductor.]'' Open the door, please!
:''[The conductor just stares at him, baffled.]''
:'''James Bond''': ''Open. The door!''
:''[The conductor finally opens the door. Bond steps on board.]''
:'''James Bond''': Health and Safety. Carry on.
:'''Q''': Where are you?
:'''James Bond''': ''[moving through the carriages.]'' Take a wild guess, Q.
:'''Q''': He's in disguise now. He's dressed as a policeman.
:'''James Bond''': ''[sarcastic.]'' Of course he is.
:'''Q''': ''[tracking the train's path, muttering.]'' Where's he going? Where's he going?
:''[Bond spots the route map on the inside wall of one of the carriages. The route leads to Westminster.]''
:'''James Bond''': ''[realising.]'' He's going for M. Tell Tanner - get her out of there.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Having absconded with M, Bond has pulled over at a back-alley garage.]''
:'''M''': Well I'm not hiding in there, if that's your brilliant plan.
:'''James Bond''': We're changing vehicles. The problem with company cars is they have trackers.
:''[He opens the garage door and turns on the lights, revealing his classic Aston Martin DB5.]''
:'''M''': ''[sarcastic.]'' Well I suppose ''that's'' completely inconspicuous.
:'''James Bond''': Get in.
:''[Bond and M drive off in the Aston Martin.]''
:'''M''': It's not very comfortable, is it?
:'''James Bond''': ''[flips up the shift knob cap to reveal the ejector seat button underneath.]'' You gonna complain all the way?
:'''M''': Oh go on, eject me! See if I care!
:''[Bond closes the shift knob cap.]''
:'''M''': Where are we going?
:'''James Bond''': Back in time. Somewhere we'll have the advantage.

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond is practising hitting targets with his father's rifle with Kincade, the gamekeeper of Skyfall, the Bond family estate.]''
:'''Kincade''': So who are we supposed to be fighting?
:'''James Bond''': No "we" in it, Kincade. This is isn't your fight.
:'''Kincade''': Try and stop me, you jumped-up little shit. Now remember what I taught you - don't let it pull to the left.
:'''James Bond''': ''[deadpan]'' I'll do my best.
:''[Bond takes aim and fires twice. The targets, a pair of china teacups on a tree branch, are blown to smithereens. Bond pops the spent cartridges from the rifle.]''
:'''Kincade''': What did you say you did for a living?

<hr width="50%"/>
:''[Bond, M and Kincade are waiting for Silva and his men to arrive.]''
:'''M''': I fucked this up, didn't I?
:'''James Bond''': No. You did your job. ''[beat]'' I read your obituary of me.
:'''M''': And?
:''' James Bond''': Appalling.
:'''M''': Yeah, I knew you'd hate it. I ''did'' call you an exemplar of British fortitude.
:'''James Bond''': Oh, that bit was alright.
:''[The dogs start barking. Bond rises, alert]''
:'''James Bond''': Are you ready?
:'''Kincade''': I was ready before you were born, son.

<hr width="50%"/>
:'''Raoul Silva''': ''[on seeing that M is wounded, panicked]'' You're hurt. You're hurt! What have they done to you? What have they done to you? ''[puts his gun in her hand, and presses it to her head, and rests his head against hers]'' Free us both. With the same bullet. Do it. Do it. Only you can do it. Now do it. ''[he screams as Bond lobs a knife into his back. He turns and glares at Bond, groaning with impotent rage. He kneels onto the floor.]''
:'''James Bond''': Last rat standing.
:''[Silva keels over dead]''
:'''M''': 007, what took you so long?
:'''James Bond''': Well, I got into some deep water.
:''[M, succumbing to her wound, topples over. Bond cradles her in his arms]''
:'''M''': I suppose it's too late to make a run for it?
:'''James Bond''': Well, I'm game if you are.
:'''M''': At least I got one thing right.
:''[M dies. Bond embraces her corpse and Kincade, with despair, takes off his hat.]''

<hr width="50%"/>
:'''Gareth Mallory''': ''[now promoted to become the new head of MI6 as the new M]'' So, 007… ''[gives Bond his next assignment]'' Lots to be done. Are you ready to get back to work?
:'''James Bond''': With pleasure, M. With pleasure.

== Cast ==
* [[w:Daniel Craig|Daniel Craig]] - [[w:James Bond (character)|James Bond]]
* [[w:Judi Dench|Judi Dench]] - [[w:M (James Bond)|M]]
* [[w:Javier Bardem|Javier Bardem]] as Raoul Silva
* [[w:Ralph Fiennes|Ralph Fiennes]] as Gareth Mallory/M
* [[w:Naomie Harris|Naomie Harris]] as [[w:Miss Moneypenny|Eve Moneypenny]]
* [[w:Bérénice Marlohe|Bérénice Lim Marlohe]] as Sévérine
* [[w:Albert Finney|Albert Finney]] as Kincade
* [[w:Ben Whishaw|Ben Whishaw]] as [[w:Q (James Bond)|Q]]
* [[w:Rory Kinnear|Rory Kinnear]] - [[w:Bill Tanner|Bill Tanner]]

== External links ==
{{wikipedia}}
* {{imdb title|id=1074638|title=Skyfall}}
* {{rotten-tomatoes|id=skyfall|title=Skyfall}}

[[Category:2012 films]]
[[Category:Action films]]
[[Category:James Bond 007]]
[[Category:British films]]

Template:Fact

2014-09-05T22:59:17Z

FDMS4: no longer; Wikidata

<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Wikiquote:Citing sources|''citation needed'']]<nowiki>]</nowiki><includeonly>[[Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]</includeonly><noinclude>

----

This tag will categorise tagged articles into [[:Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]. If the article contains no sources at all, use {{tl|unreferenced}} instead.

This [[w:Wikipedia:Template|template]] is a [[w:Wikipedia:Avoid self-references|self-reference]] and so is part of the Wikiquote project rather than the quotation content.

==See also==
* [[:Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]
* [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]]
* {{tl|unreferenced}}

[[Category:Inline cleanup templates]]
</noinclude>

Template:Source

2014-09-05T22:58:31Z

FDMS4: so redirect it

#REDIRECT [[Template:Fact]]

Nigel Farage

2014-04-20T13:52:46Z

FDMS4: /* Sourced */ made this ugly quote at least typographywise less ugly (hopefully WS-compatible)

Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard

2014-04-04T16:44:28Z

FDMS4: /* Gadgets */ new section

{{/Header}}
= Discussions =

== Auto spambot detection with User:Abuse filter ==
'''Proposal :'''
# to investigate the implementation of Auto spambot detection with <s>User:Abuse filter</s> the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter Extension:AbuseFilter]
# to implement the Auto spambot detection with <s>User:Abuse filter</s> the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter Extension:AbuseFilter]
-- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 12:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC) (p.s. this proposal is added a day after this discussion started) / 14:04, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
----
*[[m:User:Abuse filter]]
**See also: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log/Abuse_filter
**Brief description: [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Abuse_filter&action=history note: not a bot; like User:MediaWiki default]
**See also: [[User:MediaWiki default]]
**At Italian Wikipedia: [https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale:Registri/Filtro_anti_abusi&offset=&limit=5000&type=&user=Filtro+anti+abusi it's currently their sixth sysop by blocks].
**According to {{user|Billinghurst}}, we need to first get community consensus supporting this and we can then have the feature turned on. After that, the most prominent issue to consider is simply supervising its activity and placing restrictions on it.

I think this could be incredibly helpful, what do you think, community? -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
<hr width="50%" />

*'''Support'''. Just a note that I fully support implementation of this, as nom. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
** Cirt. What do you support? Above the concrete proposal is (still) missing, or am I missing something? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 17:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
***It was simple enough for {{w|unanimous}} support over at ''Wikinews'', shrug... -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
**** So far, it is completely unclear what this is about. So far I only detected that there is a user with the name "Abuse filter" on meta. The rest of the completely unclear. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:55, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
** Ok, let's get some things straight:
**# The tool we might import here is the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter Extension:AbuseFilter].
**# The explanation about this tool on Meta can be found [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abuse_filter here]
**# The user on Meta with the name [[m:User:Abuse filter|Abuse filter]] has made a link on his user page to the above link.
** [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*** It seems this is not correct either, because the explanation about this tool on Meta states: ''It was enabled on English Wikipedia on March 2009[1] and is now be enabled on all Wikimedia projects...'' Should this mean that it can be enabled on Wikiquote (by filling in an request)? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:16, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
****I believe the user you refer to is not an actual person, but part of the automated system to block spammers. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 01:19, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*****You might be right, anyway. I added an explicit proposal on top of this discussion, so it is more clear what we are talking about. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 12:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Comments''': The heading of this section refers to ''spambot detection'', but the links provided above appear to relate to the ability of the '''[[Special:AbuseFilter|AbuseFilter]]''' to impose blocks, which is not currently enabled in Wikiquote's implementation of the abuse filter. I will assume, but correct me if I am wrong, that this ''blocking feature'' is the one you are interested in enabling, rather than ''detection'' of spambot posts using the filter. I think the first priority is the detection of spam so it can be filtered out. Blocking the accounts is dependent upon detecting the activity first, and may be of less importance if the posts are effectively filtered out. I also think it could be dangerous to implement the blocking feature at a project that does not have its own local filter experts. It would be very helpful, and would not require enabling anything, to import a filter from another wiki that is already designed for the pattern of spambot activity we have been experiencing. If anyone would care to identify such a filter in use at another English language project, I would be happy to work on importing it. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:00, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
::Okay that sounds good, agree with analysis by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as proposed, due to lack of clarity in the proposal about what exactly is proposed to be done. (The apparent confusion displayed in discussion above reinforces my opinion that it would be unwise to enable dangerous components of a system that is not well understood by those who would use it.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 11:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
** You are quite right. I think we need to investigate this some further. What are the possibilities and how to implement this? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 12:27, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

*'''Explicit proposal is now added''': Due to the previous comment by Ningauble and my earlier comments an explicit proposal is now added. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 12:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
** Your restatement of an explicit proposal, inserted above Cirt's original post, suggests that you might understand what is meant better than I do. For purposes of clarification, what do you mean by ''implement with User:Abuse filter''? ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*** You're quite right, the proposal is rephrased. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 14:04, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
**** Your revised restatement of what is proposed, by striking reference to "User:Abuse filter" which was the focus of Cirt's original post starting this thread, appears to be changing the subject altogether rather than clarifying it. This thread has become a real mess, with confusion about the subject exacerbated by posting comments out of chronological sequence. I suggest everyone take a deep breath, step back, and begin a fresh thread if desired. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we are changing the subject here:
# There is a mediawiki extension named [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter Extension:AbuseFilter]
# This extension can be turned on in any specific wikiproject, as explained [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abuse_filter here] on mediawikimedia.org
## This specific mediawikimedia.org gives a table with "Permissions configuration comparison"
## Here it seems the Abuse filter is "turned on" on a lot of Wikiproject, but not on Wikiquote
# Now I guess if a request is made and granted, the Extension:AbuseFilter will create [[User:Abuse filter]] here on Wikiquote
Now I could be mistaken (again)), but let us bear in mind we are all on unfamiliar ground here. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 17:41, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*I have asked Jasper Deng on Wikimedia for advice (see [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jasper_Deng#Wikiquote here]), since he created the User:Abuse filter page overthere. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:05, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
** Allow me to clear up some misunderstandings:
**# The Abuse Filter extension is already installed at en.wikiquote, as indicated at [[Special:Version]]. Its main interface may be found at [[Special:AbuseFilter]].
**# The Abuse Filter does not need to be "turned on". It is up and running, and [[Special:AbuseLog]] shows its actions.
**# The table to which you linked ''does'' show that the Abuse Filter is installed here, but information about the configuration is incomplete. Apart from a naming difference, configuration of the extension at en.wikiquote similar to that described at [[w:Wikipedia:Edit filter]], and is essentially the Wikimedia default.
**# In particular, as described at [[w:Wikipedia:Edit filter#Actions which can be assigned in response to filtered edits]], automatic account blocking is not enabled.
**# "User:Abuse filter" is the username under which the Abuse Filter performs blocks, so that the block log, recent changes, & etc. can show ''who'' [sic] did the blocking. It is only needed at projects where automatic account blocking is enabled.
:: I hope that, in light of this information, my original comment (16:00, 16 October 2013 above) may make a little more sense. I appreciate that you would like for the Abuse Filter to combat the spambot activity we have been experiencing. It would be a good thing. Unfortunately, writing filters is not easy: it requires specific technical proficiencies, and can cause massive disruption of the entire site if it is done wrong. Please proceed with the utmost caution. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 23:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
:::Ok thanks. We already have a [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter Abuse filter management] system...! Now the million dollar question: is there not an extra extension/filter we can add here? It looks like we have got 15 filters running, while Wikipedia (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter here]) has up to about 600 filters (not all active). -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 01:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
::::If you want to borrow some from Meta or MediaWiki (we have some good ones), then I or a steward can help. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 21:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

* Although I am not a regular contributor to Wikiquote, I noticed this discussion after it was mentioned to a fellow [[m:SWMT|SWMT]] member on Meta. I personally disagree with automatically imposed blocks from an edit filter in almost all cases, but I am fine with disallowing edits. Of course, it's up to your community whether or not you want automatic blocks. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 22:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
** I also believe that automatic blocks are not a good idea. This is not allowed at Wikipedia, where there are a large number of filter experts. I think it is scary to even consider the idea at a project like this where there are no experts to manage it. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 23:23, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*** @PiRSquared17. we are looking for a bot that can disallowing edits, not block user accounts (See also correction [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#To_do_next here]): In short, we want to disallow new users to add (any) external links to Wikiquote. Do you know how this can be done? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 01:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
**** @Mdd: The original purpose of this thread concerns the blocking feature, by reference to [[m:User:Abuse filter]]. (Cirt was well aware of the extension itself, having edited filters previously.[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/history]) Again, " I suggest everyone take a deep breath, step back, and begin a fresh thread if desired." There was not much consensus in previous discussion ([[#Blocking question]]) to disallow ''any'' external links by new users (much less unregistered ones). If we do reach a consensus for such a policy, then it would be easy to implement automatic enforcement. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
****@Mdd: This project already has AbuseFilters that can disallow edits. To create one, see [[Special:AbuseFilter]] (please test filters before enabling them). I am an admin on Meta, where we have blocking filters. Only two people (including myself) opposed it there. False positives could really discourage new users, so I think blocking filters need to be disabled and fixed after any FP. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 21:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

=== Abuse filter to prevent "''New users adding external links on their user or talk page''" ===
Wikisource (see [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter here]) has an abuse filter (nr 15) up and running, that prevents "''New users adding external links on their user or talk page''". It seems like a good idea to test this Abuse filter here on Wikiquote. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
:Actually, they're only ''tagging'' such edits, not ''preventing'' them, as it also catches good links. If you want to try it with "disallow" enabled, that is a different story. I can (privately) give you the code that other projects use for this, but only stewards and admins on Wikisource can see what the conditions for that filter are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 22:04, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
:: Thanks for the kind offer! I am going to follow up with PiRSquared17 about finding suitable filters that can be adapted from other wikis. They can be difficult to find and import without assistance because most are "private", i.e., the details are hidden from public view (for good reason). We do need our filters to be a little more discriminating, sensitive to recognizable patterns used by spambots, than simply looking for the presence of external links. (E.g., they should not reject things like the original version of [http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mdd&oldid=566688 this user's page], or the page of [[User:Sue Gardner|this seemingly well-meaning person]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
I've made [[m:Special:AbuseFilter/43]] and /44 public. Not sure what wikisource does exactly, but it should be similar. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 18:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
: Thanks Pi! These filters detect and tag any edit that adds links the new user's page/talk. I am not sure tagging is a great benefit, since we seem to be catching them already at New Pages and Recent Changes; but if others think it would be beneficial to tag them then I will set up these filters or something similar. (They are easy.) What would be more useful, IMO, would be something that detects the specific pattern of spam we have been dealing with and stops them from posting. I have not followed up with Pi about the pattern yet, but will do so later today or tomorrow. Unfortunately, the pattern is so variable that it will take more than a simple "regexp" to catch many of them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
:: Replied. (Note: change the wikimedia.org part to wikiquote.org) [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 22:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
{{outdent|:::}}
PiRSquared17 provided info about [[m:Special:AbuseFilter/65]], which is designed for the spambot pattern we have been experiencing. I have implemented it here, with some changes, as [[Special:AbuseFilter/16]] (on a test basis initially, to go live soon). The filter will catch many features peculiar to this spambot, but some posts will slip through due to variations in wording. Administrators who feel confident editing filters can update it as the spammer [[w:Whac-A-Mole|invents new variations]] to evade the filter. For major or tentative changes, consider forking a new filter to run in test mode. You can also help by monitoring the [[Special:AbuseLog|AbuseLog]] for false positives, because some of the triggers may be so generic that they trap innocent edits. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
:Ntsamr is changing its usual pattern significantly. No link + No <nowiki> </nowiki>: [[User:NellieStGeorge]] & [[User:ArtALXQlifa]]. I saw something like this yesterday too. No spam link on the userpage but it created a spam page on ns0. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 05:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
::@[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]]: do you know any filters that handle this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 14:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
:::Nope, but I just saw this. [[m:User:Mathonius/Reports/BAABP]] --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 15:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
:::: The two cited examples may not reflect a change in the pattern. They may only be cases of operator error when running the bot, like an even more [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=User%3AArchieKXMrxpeib&timestamp=20130918153622 egregious goof] last month when the operator not only forgot the link, but also the part "About_Yourself". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
::::: I can't see the deleted edit, but I recommend you ask [[m:User:Billinghurst]] to fix the filter if you think it's missing something. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 23:48, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
:::::: My point was that these goofs do not appear to be a systematic pattern or recurring problem. If nuisance user pages ''without'' external links do become a persistent problem in the future then we can look into filtering them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

== New type of spambot? ==

It seems two days ago a new type of spambot appeared (see [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:DeletedContributions/Eliga here]) which just kept on adding new spambot messages (up to 25) until it was blocked.

Now today the new spambot account [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:DeletedContributions/Ritubhaskar Ritubhaskar] came from the same source because it also created a page [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Undelete/Wctreeservice Wctreeservice].

Should we be worried? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 14:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
: I don't think worrying about it will help. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:59, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

== Complaint from a user on OTRS ==

A user has complained on OTRS (Ticket#2013090410005661 ) that as soon as User: is typed in search box, the text prompt "! !Gavin.collins ræpes babies" appears. As it could be offensive and refers to a blocked account, the account could be deleted or renamed at the earliest by taking up with Stewards--[[User:Arjunaraoc|Arjunaraoc]] ([[User talk:Arjunaraoc|talk]]) 05:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
:I've renamed the account and deleted the redirects on the User: and User talk: pages; it's still showing up, but that could also be something that clears itself out of the system after a short while. [[User:EVula|EVula]] // [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|☯]] // 07:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
::Now you get "User:! Jack Merridew b& from WP", also a blocked account but rather less offensive.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 11:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

== Vandalism and spam patrol ==

I have lately been preoccupied by some unanticipated, somewhat urgent events in "real life" that prevent me from conducting my usual vandalism and spam patrol. This situation will probably persist for a few more days. I would be grateful if some of our less active administrators could spend a little extra time keeping an eye on things in the meanwhile. (Particularly, [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=250&hidebots=0 Recent Changes], [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:NewPages&hideredirs=0&namespace=all New Pages (all)], and activity by users who tripped [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchFilter=16 Filter 16].) Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
: I am back on the job. Thinking about asking for a 25% raise. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

== Vandalism at [[Bhagavad Gita]] ==

Heavy vandalism by a user at [[Bhagavad Gita]], and it's not by any '''new''' user of wikipedia, but the same user who vandalized the wikipedia page before too with the same spam links. Which can be seen here[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Hinduism&diff=572735158&oldid=572735128] and his IP/account was banned for Edit warring. The page should be locked for now. [[User:Justicejayant|Justicejayant]] ([[User talk:Justicejayant|talk]]) 15:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

== Blacklisted social networking sites ==

The following websites were added to the '''[[Mediawiki:Spam-blacklist|spam blacklist]]''' a month ago by administrator [[User:Cirt|Cirt]] ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist&diff=1643153 dif]). Existing links to these sites are noted in this list:
* ''facebook.com'' ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.facebook.com 74 links])
* ''twitter.com'' ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.twitter.com 118 links])
* ''myspace.com'' ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.myspace.com 104 links])
One user, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]], has requested that Twitter be removed from the blacklist ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ningauble&diff=1654603 dif]). Note also that citation to this type of site has been discussed at [[Wikiquote talk:Quotability#Tweets, blogs, chatrooms, &c.]] without reaching consensus. Should any or all of these sites be blacklisted or un-blacklisted? Is this an administrative call, or is broader community discussion needed? ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:52, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' removing any of the above. They are unreliable, as they are not durably archived. They are used for spamming as well. Best to stick to reliable secondary sources, whenever possible. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Twitter is sometimes the true source of celebrated quotes, such as the ones by [[Richard Dawkins#Twitter|Richard Dawkins]]. Twitter is the most accurate (and reliable) source in such cases, for verified Twitter users, and has been used on Wikiquote for a long time. Could some admin who actually contributes to Wikiquote remove this recent addition of Twitter to the "spam" blacklist? Or will edits [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Dawkins&diff=1652405&oldid=1652404 like] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Justin_Bieber&diff=1657858&oldid=1655323 these] continue to be disrupted from now on? Come on. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:43, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
: I cannot see any logical reason to block these sites totally and would support removal from the blacklist.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 11:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
:: I tend to agree with their prohibition. If a quote from Twitter or Facebook or the like is worth quoting, it will be quoted in secondary sources, which can then be cited as evidence of the quotability of the quote. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 13:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
::: I tend to STRONGLY disagree with their prohibition. EVEN if one wishes to primarily encourage quotes that are already widely quoted elsewhere, as some seem to be inclined to do (and I do not), the blacklisting of these sites PREVENTS the linking to the original sources, and seems quite unnecessary, and actually more detrimental than helpful, especially when pages of certain celebrities are of "verified" status within these sites. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 13:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC) + tweaks
::@[[User:BD2412|BD]]: do you have anything against primary sources? If you do, you must be on the wrong website. I want to link Dawkins' quotes to their true source, not to some journalist's opinion on why his tweet was offensive, thank you very much. [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 14:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
::: The question is not whether some journalist found a comment to be offensive (or praiseworthy), but whether it was notable at all. If Dawkins (or some similarly famous person) tweets their grocery list, should it be possible for that to be added here as a quote? By what principle, then, should we ''not'' add to Dawkins' page his entire Twitter stream of over 14,000 tweets (including, in the past few days, "Listening to the Carols from King’s College, Cambridge. Very lovely (except for the pretentious rolled Rs), matching the sublime building."; "Catholic Church has a legitimate right & authority to veto scientific conclusions that directly contradict her dogma [link]"; and "I LOVE this video. [link] Anybody know if music copyright problems'd make it hard for me to do something like it myself?" [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 15:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
::::You seem to be working under the assumption that unless you block websites like Twitter, total chaos will ensue, and everybody is going to start adding banal quotes to our articles. Well, sorry to break it to you, BD, but despite your much-repeated and beloved example, no one is actually interested in adding grocery lists to Wikiquote. No matter how much you may fear subjectivity, I affirm that any selection of quotes is ''necessarily'' subjective, and I find it strange that you should ask by what criteria are quotes chosen when you yourself follow up by selecting a number of quotes which, presumably, are to appeal to our common sense for what constitutes triviality. How did you do that? By what "principle" did you select those quotes? (By what principles do journalists select ''their'' quotes?) You see, I trust our readers' and editors' intelligence in the selection quotes, as I do that of our reviewers (like yourself), who are free to remove from any article quotes which they deem too trivial for inclusion. I only fear subjectivity in administrative areas, where force is used, for example in selecting the period of time for which a person should be blocked. I resent that we are only having this discussion ''after'' primary sources like Twitter were blocked, and that the "rules" were changed in the middle of the game, with no consultation. I would like to say a few more words about this, but last time I did so, you blocked me for three months, and God knows for how many months you will block me next time. That's exactly the kind of arbitrary judgment that concerns me. Not fear of grocery lists. [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
::::: It is entirely possible to discuss the best practice without discussing the personalities involved, so let's focus on that. Let's say we forget grocery lists then, and look at the actual Twitter stream. Here are the last eight tweets by Dawkins which are not already mentioned above, and which are not merely retweets or pointing to links:
:::::*Are dreams epiphenomenal or have they Darwinian survival value? I find "tidying the hard disk" (Evans, Crick) to be not a big enough theory.
:::::*Been watching recent David Attenborough DVDs. He just goes on getting better and better. Truly superb, magical.
:::::*Again accused of ignorance of theology. But what is there in "theology" to be ignorant ABOUT? Tell me 1 theological fact & I'll learn it.
:::::*Religious acts between consenting adults should not be illegal. #Turing
:::::*Oral sex is illegal in several US states. Homosexuality is illegal in many countries. What kind of person thinks it's the state's business?
:::::*What kind of moralist makes a "crime" out of a private act, which harms nobody, simply because it's forbidden in some old book? #Turing
:::::*What kind of moralist makes a "crime" out of a private act, simply because they'd prefer not to do that act themselves? #Turing
:::::*"Overturn a conviction" sounds a lot better than "pardon". "Pardon" implies that #Turing did something wrong in the first place.
:::::*It’s not a posthumous Pardon that Alan Turing needs, but a posthumous Apology. Same for the many others convicted of the same “crime”.
::::: Perhaps these are "quotable"; I don't propose to judge that, but to leave it to the objective filter of whether anyone has ''quoted'' them. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
:::::: You are still operating under the fallacy that if Twitter was allowed people would even considering adding such statements to Wikiquote, which is a tiresome straw-man (and very much against all evidence). But let me ask you the opposite, which is actually relevant. Take, for example, the quote from ''[[Mortals and Others]]'' by [[Bertrand Russell]], "While genius is individual, sanity is social." Now Google it, and see how many times it was "quoted". Result? Zero times. Was it too "subjective" of me to add that quote by Bertrand Russell, perhaps? It would seem that according to your pseudo-objective criteria, such a quote has no place on Wikiquote, and should thus be removed (unlike whatever Miley Cyrus will say tomorrow, which I'm sure will be "quoted" in several media outlets, and so pass with flying colors your "objective filter"). [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
::::::: There are plenty of junk quotes that make it through in TV show articles. I would say that the difference between published books and things posted on the Internet is that at least books have to go through the filter of publication. Stuff on Twitter and Facebook goes through no filter at all. That said, after thinking it over, I'm not sure that blocking links to these websites is the best avenue to serve this purpose. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: Not really a straw-man: People have not only ''considered'' adding tweets that are trivial or even rubbish to Wikiquote articles, they have ''done so'': Evidence may be found [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Merlin_Mann&diff=1364805 here] and among the links to Twitter identified above. The criterion of quoting things that are actually quoted is not "pseudo-objective", it is the objective basis for such compendia as ''Bartlett's Familiar Quotations'', which expresses the concept in its title. It has been suggested from time to time that Wikiquote limit itself to ''only'' quotations that are famous, like ''Bartlett's'', but that is not the consensus and I do not support it. Contributors are encouraged to make subjective choices, subject to consensus, for including lesser-known statements from widely known, notable works. This broader scope encompasses the example from ''Mortals and Others'', so that example is a bit of a red herring. Another difference between published books and things posted on the interestnet is, as noted above, their durability. The contents of a social networking site may be rewritten, redacted, or deleted at any time. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

:For what it's worth, I'm totally fine with removing Twitter from the blacklist but keeping Facebook and MySpace blacklisted; Twitter seems to have far fewer layers between the person being quoted and the actual comment, versus Facebook with is more advertising-oriented (and MySpace is MySpace, so screw that). [[User:EVula|EVula]] // [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|☯]] // 19:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
:: Though I tend to prefer to avoid "blacklisting" any sites that are not prone to produce merely vandalizing links, I can laughingly agree with your assessment. I generally avoid Facebook and Myspace, despite having accounts on them, and though they probably have some worthwhile comments on them occasionally, I believe Twitter is more likely to produce quoteworthy material. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
::: How does blacklisting those sites achieve anything? All it does is prevent a live link. I can still go to one of those sites and copy a quote, giving the source as an unclickable link. That is a verifiable source, indeed more easily verified than a printed book that not everyone can readily access. We could make it a policy that these sites are not reliable and should not be given as references; that would require a proper debate.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 09:24, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
:::: It doesn't achieve anything, other than make the sources simply say ''Twitter'' + date, with no link to it. There clearly is no consensus to keep this disruptive change. (I guess that means it will be kept anyway?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: I think that the point is to not have quotes from Twitter at all unless they are sourced to some other publication (i.e., unless their notability has been demonstrated by the fact that someone ''quoted'' them). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 15:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::: That doesn't seem to be the consensus here, that only seems to be your opinion. But would you be willing to allow linking to Twitter if one could demonstrate the notability of a certain tweet following your criteria? [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:09, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::: There's the catch - if the notability of the tweet could be demonstrated by linking to, say, a newspaper article discussing it, why would we need to link to the tweet itself? [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 14:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::: Well, if your issue is – as you claim – with the notability of the tweets, and I can demonstrate that a tweet like "''All the world's Muslims have fewer Nobel Prizes than Trinity College, Cambridge. They did great things in the Middle Ages, though.''" was quoted by [http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/08/richard-dawkins-twitter-row-muslims-cambridge The Guardian], [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/10232082/Professor-Richard-Dawkins-embroiled-in-Twitter-row-over-Muslim-comments.html The Telegraph], [http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/09/richard-dawkins-twitter-muslims_n_3730711.html The Huffington Post], [http://www.salon.com/2013/08/24/richard_dawkins_is_not_an_islamophobe/ Salon], and [http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2013/08/why-do-so-many-nobel-laureates-look-richard-dawkins New Statesman], why shouldn't I be able to link it to its primary source (which is after all what Wikiquote is for)? I believe I have already answered your question, viz., "I want to link Dawkins' quotes to their true source, not to some journalist's opinion on why his tweet was offensive, thank you very much." [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: I've already answered this too - "I'm not sure that blocking links to these websites is the best avenue to serve this purpose". I'm really up in the air about it at this point, but would point out that ''citing'' to a primary source is still different from ''linking'' to that primary source. I can quote the Declaration of Independence on a page and say that the quote comes from that document [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Us_declaration_independence.jpg without providing this link]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::: I am sympathetic to DanielTom's point about linking to the original source of a quote rather than to opinions about it. I myself have removed links to POV essays used as citations when the actual original sources were far more notable than any essays about them ([//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Slavery&diff=1656052 example]). However, if the sole reason the source is (arguably) notable is that it provoked a (momentary) reaction from the chattering class then that context seems very relevant. Further, there needs to be some consideration of the [[WQ:Q#Recentism vs. the Test of Time|test of time]]. Professor Dawkins makes it his business to poke people with a sharp stick, and sometimes it produces a yelp. On what basis could one conjecture that any particular jab on Twitter might be remembered and quoted by future generations? The original tweet was five months ago, but I am not aware of any notable source quoting it a month or more after the event. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
: I of course reject the assumptions of those who have allowed Twitter to remain blacklisted — and believe me, I am ''restraining myself'' from giving clear and vigorous elaborations on the hypocrisies involved with those who would play a lot of quite shallow and insincere ''lip service'' to the ''words'' "freedom of speech" — and do as much as they can get away with to constrain, limit and control that of others in needless and quite detrimental ways. I do not know of twitter being blocked on Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia project — and if it is — much of my argument and hostility to the asinine practice would apply there as well. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks
: It seems to me that there is no consensus for the block. Does that mean that the block stays or that it does not?--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 05:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:: The "no consensus" rule on Wikipedia, which I assume we follow, is that in the absence of consensus regarding a controversial action, things are restored to the way they were before the action took place. In this case, the block is the controversial act, and no consensus would mean that the block must be lifted. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 14:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
: I opened this thread because I was of two minds on the issue. I still am, but I have formed an opinion on what should be the overriding consideration.
:# On the one hand, as indicated above and in the linked discussion of WQ:Q, I really do not think we should be citing the chatter and vanity of social networking sites without supporting evidence of quotability. I feel strongly about this, and shudder at the prospect of turning our project into Wiki''Retweet''.
:# On the other hand, there does not appear to be a strong consensus for that editorial position, and I don't see anyone rushing to expunge the ~300 links noted at the top of the thread. Blacklisting entire sites to enforce editorial judgments would be a questionable proposition even if editorial consensus were clear.
:# On the third hand, though these sites are sometimes used for spamming, that is not their principal usage. If we blacklist every site that has been used for spamming and promotion then we would have to say goodbye to YouTube, GoogleBooks, and even Wikipedia.
: Bottom line:  I still support and will continue to argue for tightening editorial standards for quotability; but the blacklist tool, originally intended specifically for spam, should be reserved for sites that are exclusively and extensively used for abusive or disruptive practices, not for questionable editorial judgments. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've removed them. I must make it clear that this discussion is in no way a criticism of Cirt, and I have not removed the other sites I added at the same time.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 14:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

== 20 December 2013 QOTD ==

The layout at [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/December 20, 2013]] will have to be placed into [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 20, 2013]] by an admin; the auto-protection has already kicked in on that QOTD page. The 21st and 22nd are already done. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
:{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

== Application for use of AWB ==

Would someone please grant me the right to use [[Wikiquote:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage|AutoWikiBrowser]]. Also looks as though that page could do with a little maintenance, there are a few addresses that should be culled. Thanks. It would be great if someone pings me or thanks me for the edit so I know whether I am successful or not. ''[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]'' 13:59, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}}. I have granted AWB access to "sDrewth" ([[User:Billinghurst]]) who, as a global Steward, is a highly trusted user. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
::many thanks, now to do some fixing. ''[[user talk:billinghurst|sDrewth]]'' 15:29, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[User:Kalki]] is making personal attacks, AGAIN... ==

Everybody, look at [http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1663256&oldid=1663254 ] - this person, who was at a time an administrator, is verbally attacking other people once more, despite all the warnings. [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]]
{{unsigned|166.205.55.36}}
: This of course is the statement of a poorly informed troll impersonator, who seems to be one of the more intermittent vandals of our site. This troll-vandal in one comment declared that I "lost ur sysop rights due to relentless incivility from ur part" — which is of course nonsense. I actually lost it because of suspicions generated by my use of multiple accounts. I was unwilling to alleviate the ignorant and confused assessments of others as to why I might have created them, because I had much more important matters to attend to than those of answering suspicions or explaining much about my perspectives to those who demanded such answers as could be absolutely accepted or rejected, praised or condemned, entirely in accordance to their very limited conceptions of matters. I generally have a very low esteem of such foolish behavior, and though I might hide that fact, I certainly do not deny it. I was willing to lose sysop privileges some years ago, rather than attempt to extensively disclose, deny or lie about far more important matters, in response to their puzzlements and assumptions. ''So it goes''... ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:38, 8 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::While not delving into the history of Kalki's adminship or whether the stripping of said status was correct or incorrect, I can firmly state that the cited exchange was in response to a user who unleashed vandalism across multiple pages. I did not then (and do not now) find any fault in what Kalki wrote. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:01, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

:It's times like this that I really miss the CheckUser bit. I've blocked the reporting IP, this "report" is worthless. [[User:EVula|EVula]] // [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|☯]] // 20:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
::These vandal accounts really need to be checked, perhaps we should ask at Meta. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Don't we need a checkuser? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:53, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Yeah, but we don't have enough people to elect one (they would need at least [[m:CheckUser policy#Access to CheckUser|25 support !votes]]). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Since were on the subject of this Kalki, I find it very stupid of him to liberally overlink articles with his nonsense and claim it is "standard Wiki practice."--[[User:Eaglestorm|Eaglestorm]] ([[User talk:Eaglestorm|talk]]) 14:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: Since an obvious vandal-troll IMPOSTER brought up the subject of me with this ridiculous headline some ''months'' ago, I consider it somewhat stupid of you to make such allegations as you make here. I had just been preparing [[User_talk:Eaglestorm#Hypertext_links_to_other_pages_ARE_standard_devices_on_MOST_wikis|a note to post to your own talk page on how '''Hypertext links to other pages ARE standard devices on MOST wikis''']], when I noticed your remarks here, and amended my own there slightly. '''Many people can be ''encouraged'' to participate in the wiki when links to [[ideas]] are abundant, and ways in which they ''can'' contribute to our project become ''apparent'' to them in ways they otherwise would not.''' May awareness and appreciation of MANY ideas truly good and beneficial to all [[humanity]] increase on this project and throughout our oft-troubled world. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::::: Although there is no set policy on this topic, there certainly is no ''prohibition'' against internal links designed to guide readers to topics of potential interest. I think they are a good idea, and applaud Kalki for doing the work of adding them, and doing a sensible job of it. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:34, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

== Are song quotes a violation?? ==

*'''Frieza-Force''': hello hello, ladies and gents! Upon reading the previous edits on [[Dragon Ball GT]] (which I LOVE!) and then [[Michael Jackson]] again, I was under the impression that lyrics didnt constitute as quotes. check the DBGT history page at this time thats where I learned of this. Answers please? thanks! [[User:Frieza-Force|Frieza-Force]]
*: Have you considered [[John Lennon#Lyrics|giving peace a chance]]? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
*: [[WQ:LOQ]] specifically includes lyrics from record albums as an area of coverage. I don't think it is at all in question that these are permissible for inclusion as quotes. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 21:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
*'''Frieza-Force''': i appreciate everybody for all the wonderful information! Allow me to get a cup of joe, and read that policey. WELL, WELL. [[User:Frieza-Force|Frieza-Force]]

== Protection ==

I already left this message before. Can an admin please protect my talk page. It is being met with vandalism again and I don't want to consistently revert the gibberish.

Additionally, please protect or semi-protect the following articles as they are being met with vandalism once again:

*''[[The Sopranos: Season 1]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 2]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 3]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 4]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 5]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 3]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 4]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 5]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 7]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 8]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 9]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bio-Broly]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bojack Unbound]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Wrath of the Dragon]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Emperor Pilaf Saga|Emperor Pilaf Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tournament Saga|Tournament Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Red Ribbon Army Saga|Red Ribbon Army Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: General Blue Saga|General Blue Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Commander Red Saga|Commander Red Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Fortuneteller Baba Saga|Fortuneteller Baba Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tien Shinhan Saga|Tien Shinhan Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: King Piccolo Saga|King Piccolo Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Piccolo Jr. Saga|Piccolo Jr. Saga]]''

I would suggest heavy protection. I reverted them to before the vandalism began, but I would highly recommend that they be protected from all new users as most of the vandalism is being done by the same sockpuppets from prior. Reverting the edits only triggers more activity from this sockpuppeteer. I would suggest a checkuser again for all the most recent accounts that have vandalised these articles and my talk page as they are all likely one and the same. Please notify me when the protection has been made. Thanks in advance. - [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]] ([[User talk:Zarbon|talk]]) 00:01, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:I agree these pages should be protected. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thanks. I suggest also protecting the article [[Dragon Ball Z: The World's Strongest]]. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]] ==

Since there have already been some sockpuppetry issues at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]], I have preemptively semi-protected the page against further shenanigans. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
: I see that someone has created page [[User:Kalki/Restrictions]] in Kalki's namespace and locked it. I don't think that people should create pages in other people's namespaces, let alone lock them. Would anyone object if I moved it to an appropriate place?--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 21:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I certainly would not. I thought it rude and contemptible when it was created — and definitely feel it presents very false representations of many matters which I would definitely wish to eventually thoroughly repudiate; but considered it a relatively mild abuse of me, compared to other things that user has attempted, or accomplished. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
:I agree this should be moved to the [[User:Cirt]] namespace or even deleted. Keeping records like this (without further context) could easily be misunderstood. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
::I hope Cirt knows that it is rather abusive to keep a subpage of one user, and the user cannot edit the page. Cirt may also be misunderstood about a certain situation and maybe explaining it the wrong way. I would rather see it in Cirt's userpage rather than Kalki. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:::{{done}}. Page moved to [[User:Cirt/Kalki Restrictions]]. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Note:''' My thanks to {{user|Mdd}} for having the courtesy to nofify me of this ongoing discussion at my user talk page. Much appreciated. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you for now finally, after nearly 3 years, removing that egregiously skewed and inaccurate assessment of both my actual activities and of this community's activities from my user space. I sincerely believe that any rationally and ethically competent person would never have created such a thing there in the first place, and can appreciate this as a sign you are perhaps indeed beginning to behave more rationally about some matters. After you had the gall to place them in my user space in such manner back in May of 2011 you have regularly linked to these AS IF they were "authoritative" and "official" decrees, and up until recently no one seems to have paid much attention to my objections to them as both improper and misleading. '''I thank everyone else here for their comments and concerns, and to you and each and all I close with ''[[Blessings]]''.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 08:58, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::Kalki, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 this is an authoritative and official decree.] -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 13:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Certainly "the community consensus that Kalki is limited to one account" was the official decision and policy, which I''' ''accepted''.''' You seem to be implying that YOUR particularly vile and I believe malicious assessments constituted "community consensus" and official agreement with these, when in fact, you yourself were being criticized even then on the page to which you link, as having made improper impositions upon me, which prompted that crisis in which I had already agreed to edit with only one account. It in no way sanctioned or approved many of your other assertions and actions. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:58, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Kalki, stop directing language like "vile" and "malicious" at another editor. You should dispute the premise without discussing the character of the person setting forth that premise. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:30, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I find this somewhat [[ironic]], because I labelled the assessments "vile" and "dishonest" which I sincerely believe them to be, but I can agree to attempt to be more moderate with my words, despite such ''actions'' and ''assessments'' as they refer to have been going on for some years now, with little constraint on them, and ''much'' constraint on such honesty as I account virtuous, and not vile. But I am aware that others sensibilities can differ from mine, and accept this. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Another vandal ==

Could someone block vandal [[User:‎Blue Shrek]], for edit warring if nothing else? This guy keeps vandalizing talk pages, and is apparently only here to cause trouble. Thanks ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

:{{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::Don't we need a checkuser? Maybe YODO is controlling all of this accounts. Sorry for not reverting Shrek's edits, I was at Walmart :) --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::We do, but unfortunately we don't have enough people to elect one (candidates need at least [[m:CheckUser policy#Access to CheckUser|25 support !votes]] to be elected). In practice, this means it's currently impossible for anyone to be elected checkuser on Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: I think that if we nominated an exceedingly competent admin like [[User:Ningauble]] or [[User:UDScott]], and did a bit of neutrally worded publicization that the discussion was occurring, we could garner the requisite numerical participation. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:19, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

== Article protection request ==

Could someone semi-protect [[Zoey 101]]? (Thanks.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
* {{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Another vandal reincarnation ==

I would suggest blocking [[User:Jacovinova|Jacovinova]] indefinitely as a "vandalism-only account", or to at least keep an eye on him—this vandal seems to be the most recent reincarnation of the Dragon Ball sock. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

:Me, a Vandal?! Excuse me but fellow Wikiquotions {{user|DanielTom}} is making a baseless accusation towards me. I do not even like Dragon Ball Z or anime for that matter. [[User:Jacovinova|Stephen Gallager]] 7:38 AM, 01/27/14

:{{done}} because of obsessive redirects, inserting false information, impersonating known people. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 16:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks. His style of comments, edit summaries, and pattern of edits make me almost sure that he is the same vandal as before, but this only a checkuser could confirm. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::The direct response [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=1673443&oldid=1673360 here] (removed as vandalism) and the [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/166.147.123.26 one earlier edit] of this ip adress (and then 2 October 2012 blocked by EVula for Abusing multiple accounts) confirms these findings. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Carlos Castaneda]] ==

I believe that there was once a [[Carlos Castaneda]] page on this wiki. I just noticed a blank link to it, as I have done on some occasions for some time now. I would have restored it myself save for the unfortunate persistence of opposition to my use of tools which I myself have never abused to simply stifle or silence criticism, as others have sometimes done, and who remain "honorable" admins. Thus I must now request that this page be restored so that I might work on bringing it up to par within the next week or so. In the months to come, may all be ever more blessed with the growth of awareness of truth, including significant truths about the nature and importance of diverse opinions, and not remain merely confined to narrow opinions about truth, which are far too often taken for all anyone needs to know about the nature of some things. ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

* {{done}} Article restored for now. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 11:50, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Thank you much, and for already sourcing a quote on it. I will attempt to expand the page significantly within the next week or so. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks, some more cleanup is done to make a brand new start. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 12:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== Please delete as much of my account as you can. ==

Please delete as much of my account as you can. [[User:Zzzmidnight|ZzZmidnight]] ([[User talk:Zzzmidnight|talk]]) 19:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:Please go to [[meta:Wikimedia Forum|the Wikimedia Forum at Meta]], there, the'll take care of your request to delete your account. Cheers! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:Zzzmidnight|ZzZmidnight]]: Accounts cannot be deleted, but they can be renamed, and almost [[w:WP:VANISH|vanish]]. However, as you have no edits here except for this request, I believe your best bet would be to simply stop editing. If something is troubling you, you can contact one of [[WQ:ADMINS#List of bureaucrats|WQ's bureaucrats]] privately, or a steward at [[m:Right to vanish|Meta]]. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== Ongoing vandalism in the past weeks ==

:''The first four comments are moved here from the [[User talk:Mdd]]
:<nowiki>== ping again ==</nowiki>
:Latest Dragon Ball sock: [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru]]. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Hes not a sock. Do u actually ''see'' vandalism coming from him/her?{{unsigned|166.147.109.74}}
::He only comes here to harass Zarbon by vandalizing his Dragon Ball articles. His trolling comments and edit summaries also don't help. Oh, and yes, he is a sock. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:59, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Another sock/vandal: [[User:Chirukane64]]. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:02, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Not a sock/vandal. Hmm, no personal attacks! {{unsigned|Chirukane64}}

: Another obvious sock: [[User:‎Archie's the name!|‎Archie's the name!]] ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:23, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}} user blocked. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 18:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

: Another sock: [[User:‎Calkey|‎Calkey]]. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

=== Further comment ===
There is a type of vandalism which is ongoing almost daily for about two weeks now, which requires a more structural solution. There is the following pattern:
* An apparently new user makes some constructive anti-vandalism like [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru]], and some more or less nonsense remarks on his talk page, and in between starts harassing common users, like [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=prev&oldid=1675244 here].
* There are (every time) at least one or more new usernames involved and one or more (new or existing) ip-addresses.
Now since January 17, 2014 I have blocked over 25 accounts/ip addresses (see [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Mdd&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter= block log]), making a judgement call every time. I would appreciate, that further requests would be filed here on this page, and more structural action would be taken by another administrator. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

: The appropriate approach, in my opinion, is to mentor this good faith editing user. This user has been following up on the policies, and I would hate to lose Tara by a block, this user is clearly editing in good faith. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

::i agree with u. Taracka is not related to YODO or any of the socks behind the recient vandalism. Would like to ask editors to watch [[This Is the End]], as vandalism is constantly being made there [[Special:Contributions/166.147.117.130|166.147.117.130]] 22:49, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Golden, you are being fooled and trolled by these socks. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

::The problem here is that multiple ip-addresses and new usernames are working together, which is now for example happening at the [[This Is the End]] lemma, see [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=This_Is_the_End&action=history here]. Today we are talking about:
::* [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/166.147.109.74 166.147.109.74]
::* [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/98.254.108.228 98.254.108.228]
;;* [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/166.147.117.130 166.147.117.130] (''new here in this discussion at once trying to turn things around'')
::* [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru]] ([https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tarackacarakaketaru Contributions])
::* [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/177.236.216.94 177.236.216.94] (?)
::* [[User:Chirukane64]] ([https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chirukane64 Contributions])
::And in the past weeks there have been similar situations (and this is going on for years). -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:53, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

:Oops, sorry. I did not do research on this and even thought about YODO. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I would like to personally thank "everybody" for supporting me! I must be off now, but would like to quote [[The Notorious B.I.G.]] before I go: "''I'm just an average nigga from Brooklyn, know what I'm sayin'? Niggas gotta... figure out that life shit. Uh!''" [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru|Taracka]]

Excuse Me, why in the world am '''I''' being accused of being in cahoots with these individuals? Go ahead and CheckUser me, then u will get proof that '''I''' am unrelated. {{unsigned|Chirukane64}}

:New account starts with fake undoing, who immediate known his way around. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::These socks all come from the same place, which is Zarbon's forum. I suggest blocking them all on sight, as they aren't here to do anything constructive; any delay in blocking these trolls will only result in more drama, waste of time, and nonsense edit wars. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:28, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}}, since there is no other admin around tonight. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: I understand the frustration of you being the only admin blocking these socks – so it would be very helpful if some other admin could weigh in and give their opinion on the matter. (Once again, these events go to show that Wikiquote really needs a checkuser badly.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:40, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::This discussion is started more for feedback. Two weeks ago I started noticing ([https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Frieza-Force here]), that we are being tricked in the beginning, and this keeps returning. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I would remind people that this vandalism has indeed been going on for many years, and that these socks ''always'' make apparent good edits just to confuse admins. If it was up to me, I'd block them on sight, as they all come from the same forum to vandalize the articles edited by Zarbon, and indeed they keep harassing him even today at Wikipedia. [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]], you may want to give your opinion here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:45, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:Just for the record, Zarbon recently did [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMdd&diff=1665665&oldid=1665118 commented] on this matter. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
::I've just locked two dozen accounts since this is currently a crosswiki issue (this vandal has gone crosswiki) I've also done some local rangeblocks, please notify me if there's any side effect (though I'm pretty sure there won't). --[[User:Vituzzu|Vituzzu]] ([[User talk:Vituzzu|talk]]) 14:47, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks for taking [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/globalauth/Vituzzu&dir=prev&offset=20140117123451 this action] (see also [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AGoldenburg111%2FReports%2FWikiquote_Vandalism_Statics&diff=7321882&oldid=7321855 this comment]). There however seems to be the problem that these person(s) keep returning under new ip-addresses. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:24, 2 February 2014 (UTC)/13:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Don't we need an IP-Exemption-er hear? I'll volunteer to be one. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:26, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Admins can already add people to that group, per [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 22:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:Mdd|Mdd]], is it okay if can receive IP Exemption rights? I, most probably, revert nearly all the IP vandals here. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 00:12, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::The control op IP contributions is much appreciated. However, I would prefer if block requests for (IP) vandals would be filled here, as stated in my first comment. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 01:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::I respect your decision, and I am not hurt in anyway. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
:I am very sick and tired of this person harassing me and following my contributions only to revert or vandalize much of my efforts. Additionally, this person attempts to impersonate my user name or generally pretend to come from my very inactive forum from about 7 years ago. This has been going on forever now, maybe over 10 years of pestering and gibberish and it's cross-wiki on all the sister projects. I have compiled a list of over 400 usernames attached to this person and apparently, this user has no intention of stopping. Any help halting this person's actions are greatly appreciated; please protect my talk page and the articles I contributed to and listed prior. If there is a way to track all IP's attached to this person; difficult as it may be, a permanent block is very useful. However, there is currently a discussion about this person and their multiple accounts on wikipedia and the attached information that may prove useful: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Wiki-star Admin noticeboard for sock accounts]. Any help halting this person's actions are greatly appreciated. - [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]] ([[User talk:Zarbon|talk]]) 04:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks for this link. This (again) confirms that this is a cross-wiki problem, which is going on for year. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 16:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I just noticed previous discussion about this on Wikiquote have been in [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive/007#Sockpuppet_Master_and_Vandal 2007], [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Vandalism_in_progress&oldid=889384#Recent_Vandalism 2008], [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive/014#Checkuser_requests_.2815.29 2009], [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive/014#Constant_Vandalism 2009], and [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Protection 2013]; And in between about Zarbon (his [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3AZarbon 2007-08 block log]), the [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive/009#Please_listen_to_me 2007 discussion] and a short [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive/021#User:Zarbon 2012 discussion]; which can put some things in perspective... -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 11:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia policy on multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 14:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
** Sorry, I realized that this should be posted at the Village Pump, not here. Reposting the proposal there. You can copy your answer there also. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Please semi protect [[Socrates]] ==

This has been the third time the page has been vandalized. Two vandals here, one vandal vandalized this page two times while a new IP Address has just vandalized it. I would like the [[Socrates]] page to be semi-protected from further vandalism. Thank you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
:Probably not necessary, there doesn't seem to be a pattern vandalism for this page, or systematic disruption. It's normal for pages of famous figures to suffer occasional vandal edits. A good way to deal with them is to watchlist such pages and check for new edits, reverting if necessary, as you've just done. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
::your right Daniel, I'll withdrawn this. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
:::please protect [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]], since it has been suffering heavy disruption https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:WikiProject_Weekly_Cleanup&action=history --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC

A page that needs protecting again is [[Muhammad]], otherwise we will keep seeing devout IPs removing sourced quotes (the page's protection expired a month ago or so, perhaps it should be protected again for a whole year). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 07:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} for both pages. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:47, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

== Request for review ==

Is it okay if I reinstate [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?diff=1676992&oldid=1676755 this edit] which was [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?diff=next&oldid=1676992 reverted afterwards] by {{user|Abramsky}}? IMO it was a minor formatting issue and I had already [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?diff=1676991&oldid=1629401 moved] the interwikis and categories to the /Header page. I also took out the Simple English Wikiquote with that move though, since it was closed, but please do reinstate that interwiki link if you still think it's appropriate. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
: Yes, I think moving categories and interwikis to a to an <nowiki><includeonly></nowiki> block on a transcluded subpage is fine. Some were already there. Abramsky may not have been familiar with how this works, but the same sort of structure is also used at the Village pump. Regarding the Simple English Wikiquote, we do not need, and I believe we should not have, links to defunct projects. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 12:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

== QOTD 22 - 25 February 2014 ==

The layout available in '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 22, 2014]]''' will have to be placed in '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/February 22, 2014]]''' by an admin, as it is currently locked to general editing. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
:Is this urgent? Maybe we can ask a steward to do it. (I don't believe these pages should be locked at all.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
:: It is somewhat urgent, and needed for the current QOTD, but I don't think it is excessive to lock it, though occasionally it does get locked before I have been able to do a layout. I am just briefly checking in right now, to see how this goes, and am preparing to leave again for at least several hours within the next half hour or so. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:11, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I asked a steward, but apparently it's not their job to do such edits; some WQ admins were notified by email, though. (BTW, when does the main page update the QOTD? Is it midnight GMT? Here it's already 22 Feb.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. I guess it is, the main page isn't showing the QOTD today. I'll try annoying some steward again. This is a non controversial move.
:Hi, I was contacted by DanielTom and asked to carry out the necessary edit. While I recognize the importance of an up-to-date Main page as the welcoming page of the project, I am a bit uncomfortable in carrying out the edit, as it is a bit outside of the normal duties carried out by stewards (we mainly deal with emergencies in the sense of vandalism, spamming, and that sort of thing, rather than editorial matters). I have instead emailed every administrator here, hoping that maybe one of the usually not so active ones is at the computer and sees the message (I have emailed all but [[User:Jni]], [[User:MosheZadka]], [[User:Nanobug]], [[User:Quadell]] all of who have no listed email) and can carry out the required edit. Let's see if we get any replies :) [[User:Snowolf|Snowolf]] [[m:User:Snowolf|How can I help?]] 00:34, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:36, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
:::(Thanks Mdd, Snowolf. Sorry about the flood.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: A repeat of this procedure is needed, and the layout at '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 23, 2014]]''' will have to be placed into '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/February 23, 2014]]'''. When I had last checked the page had not been locked. I know that the lock doesn't always kick in automatically, but perhaps it would be a good idea to reduce the protection on these pages from two days in advance to simply the current day's page, which is all that s actually necessary. That would nearly eliminate the likelihood of such incidents in the future. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

:{{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Thanks much. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:30, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Another such operation is necessary for the layout at '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 24, 2014‎]]''' to be placed into the project page '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/February 24, 2014]]'''. I have already checked and the 25th is also already locked, so it to will have to be moved, whenever I complete work on that. I will try to do today, and perhaps also attempt to catch up at the 26th, which is not yet locked. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
:: The layout at '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 25, 2014‎‎]]''' is also now available to be moved into '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/February 25, 2014‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:04, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
: Thanks again. I have already posted the layout for the 26th now, so it is all set. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:18, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

== Image discussion (aka Cirt vs. Kalki) ==

I would like to ask any interested admins to chime in at the discussions happening on [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 27, 2014]] or [[Talk:Main Page]] and the VP. I know that much discussion has been held, but we do not appear to have reached any kind of consensus. And I am growing increasingly weary of the war that Cirt appears to be intent on waging against Kalki. I do not always agree with Kalki and I do not always disagree with Cirt. But this seemingly never ending battle is the kind of thing that drives users away - and may be the kind of thing that eventually even drives me away (and I love Wikiquote and would miss it dearly). Can we try to at least restore a semblance of sanity here? It's become almost an embarrassment for the site. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 02:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
:'''Comment:''' I disagree respectfully with the way {{user|UDScott}} has framed this. I will of course abide by community consensus. UDScott is correct that four images is not excessive at times, though at other times it is. Per [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]], images must be directly relevant to the quotes. Images should not be tangentially relevant. [[Wikiquote:NPOV]] applies as well. I will disengage further from these Main Page subpages for a while -- however we should all make sure the Main Page conforms to site policies including [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] and [[Wikiquote:NPOV]]. Also, I was previously unaware that one single user gets to create the ''Quote of the Day'' subpages for our website. I thought the community was allowed to contribute to this process, and not have it dictated to us by one user? -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::: As the overall most active editor on this project since its inception in 2003, I have long taken on many forms of actual work others have not, not only in creation of the QOTD layouts, but '''[[User:Kalki/index|hundreds of major article pages]]''', and when I was an admin of being clearly the most active vandal fighter of all the admins. Your primary involvement, so far as I have observed, is in harassing certain people or contributing a few apparently snide endeavors as you have occasionally created, (such as the [[Campaign for "santorum" neologism]], [[Targeted killing]] and [[Donkey punch]] pages — though that was eventually reduced in its rather crude and often graphic contents, by community consensus, and moved to the generally less objectionable "Sexual slang" page), as well as a few other pages or contributions to pages which have usually rather obviously seemed intended to deride certain rightly or wrongly unpopular individuals or groups.
::: '''I actually believe there are many contemptible farces and forms of fraudulence that have long gone on here, that undermine and betray the fundamental founding concepts of wiki processes which are far fouler and detrimental in some ways than the assaults of obvious trolls and vandals, including some of the "policies" on the above mentioned pages which I believe were devised very specifically to reduce the options and rights of general editors and empower the most OBNOXIOUS of people in contemptible ways which go beyond those appropriate to ANY Wikimedia wiki.''' Some of these have been devised by a few people within the past couple of years, to effectively eliminate many options which had existed here for years, and were they actually accepted AS IF they were anything but contemptibly unjust farces would effectively subjugate most editors to the whims of the most dictatorially oppressive and suppressive users who seek to constrain, control and limit the options of those who actually are most interested in contributing to the wiki. Many things have kept me too busy to address all the issues thoroughly, but there is much more I intend to eventually point out on this matter, and it will probably take me some time to present many of the reasons why I assert some of these involve despicable betrayals and neglect of the principles with which Wikiquote and the Wikimedia projects and most wikis generally, were founded. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 03:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::It would be nice if we could have multiple users be able to contribute to the ''Quote of the Day'' layout page, instead of just one (1) user dictate it to the community. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On a very few occasions over the years some people have suggested layout options, which I have respectfully considered, but '''I believe that there has actually been little or no active contentions about my layouts over all these years, save those few which you have occasionally been involved in''', and especially those you have made abundantly and persistently in recent days in drastic and presumptively dictatorial alterations, usually with numerically and not visually gauged reductions which resulted in sometimes very poorly aligned and balanced visual fields, as well as massive reductions of standard wikilinks and notably relevant imagery. '''MOST of your activity in regard to my activities has been in what I have perceived to be little more than further means to harass me, as I believe many people are aware you have rather clearly done in many ways for many years now.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 04:09, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::There are multiple comments by ''different'' users at Village Pump including the October 2013 thread at : [[Wikiquote:Village_pump#Images_make_mobile_site_UNREADABLE]]. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Update:''' Please see this thread at Village Pump, from October 2013: [[Wikiquote:Village_pump#Images_make_mobile_site_UNREADABLE]]. I did not start that thread. Clearly this is an issue that is not an opinion solely held by myself, but by multiple others in the community as well. This is not a conflict between two users, this is an issue of one user dictating and having carte blanche control of image use on the Main Page in violation of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] and [[Wikiquote:NPOV]]. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
'''Multiple other users have complained about image use on Wikiquote:''' Other users that have complained about image use on the Main Page and on wikiquote pages, in multiple threads at Village Pump, include:
#{{user|Jmackaerospace}}
#{{user|EVula}}
#{{user|Mdd}}
#{{user|Aphorist}}
#{{user|Macspaunday}}
#{{user|Nick1372}}
#{{user|TreeRol}}
This is not just my view. It is the view of multiple members of our Wikiquote community, including myself, that images not directly relevant used on the Main Page and on other Wikiquote pages is inappropriate. It is the view expressed by multiple Wikiquote users in multiple threads on Village Pump that too many images on the Main Page especially not directly relevant images is not helpful. Thank you, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

:'''There are users who have occasionally criticized a few of my presentation decisions over the years, and there are some who can relied upon to slant and exaggerate things in particular ways that focus ONLY on what criticisms of me they can gather.''' I continue to assert that aside from a very few people, some of whom can be regularly relied upon to criticize either me generally, or the use of images generally, most of my presentation work has been praised by others. As Cirt has begun to actively seek further comment from some of those most reliably hostile to me, including those who have done little or no actual editing beyond criticism of me, in the days and weeks ahead, I shall begin to seek out comments of those who have contributed much more than many of these to this site, and have generally approved my work, and the use of images. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 03:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::I posted a new thread to Village Pump. Others commented there. I haven't commented another reply there since then. The October 2013 thread at : [[Wikiquote:Village_pump#Images_make_mobile_site_UNREADABLE]] was started by a different user I most certainly did not "seek out". -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I had noticed and referred to your comment to {{user|Macspaunday}} at [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Macspaunday&curid=39995&diff=1687101&oldid=1686450 his user page] inviting him to become more involved in the image discussions now occurring , though I recognize he probably needs little prompting or notice, as he has clearly been one of the users most actively derisive of the use of images generally, and seems most resentful of me in particular, as an active advocate of their use. His primary "contributions" to the site seem to have indeed been his massive and extensive removal of images that had existed on many pages for years, in a massive effort to eliminate many images from pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 04:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::::He had first posted to my user talk page about the image issue. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:21, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is understandable. You both seem to have some notably similar character traits. I hold no hostility to those who merely disagree with me — I only have hostility to some of the acts and attitudes of those who seek to constrain and limit the rights and options and potentials of everyone in ways I find deplorable. May you both eventually discover greater blessings in life than deriding the beauties of humanity and nature. ''[[Blessings]].'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 04:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

General comment on this discussion (not a response to any specific message): I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm always always dismayed by the layout and choice of images on quote of the day, but I don't post complaints about each one because I know a complaint would be futile. I don't have the standing here that would make a difference in this discussion, but I tend to doubt that Cirt is the root cause of the difficulty. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 12:56, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
:In response to Macspaunday's comment: I too sometimes have issues with the choice of images used (and occasionally comment on this, as I did [[Talk:Main_Page#Polemics_on_the_Main_Page|here]]), but in this case, the post I made was about what I believe to be the imposition of a rule by Cirt that limits the ''amount'' of images to 2 for these pages. Multiple times (for example twice on [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 27, 2014|this page]]), Cirt has stated that two images is what the limit should be. While that's a fine opinion to have, I do not believe it is one endorsed by the community as of yet. The fact that he then proceeded to enforce this limit is what I objected to. Further, additional efforts to limit things like image size and number of wikilinks gave the impression that Cirt was targeting the work of Kalki (especially given their prior contentious history).Whether or not these limitations are a good thing is beside the point - were they fully discussed and endorsed by the community, then great, have at it. But I have witnessed a pattern of harassment of Kalki by Cirt and I've grown weary of it. On the flip side, I often disagree with Kalki and am also weary of the long digressions he is prone to deliver when writing an essay that often refuses to address direct questions. And I do have an issue with the fact that Kalki is seemingly not willing to alter behavior based on community consensus. But, in this case, I do not believe that consensus has yet been achieved. Until that point, I will vigorously defend Kalki or any other user that appears to be subject to almost spiteful editing that oversteps the bounds of proper behavior on the site. The bottom line is that yes we should enforce [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]], which provides guidance on the ''selection'' of quotes (to ensure that the selected image is appropriate), but we do not as yet have any policy that limits the number of images. In the discussions, a rough limit of 4 images for the Quote of the Day pages has been discussed (and even agreed to as a guide by Kalki), but no hard and fast rule has been adopted by the community - and such limits should not be imposed until one is. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I thank you for your very lucid assessments, even those I disagree with. Though people can disagree substantially on many matters, I believe the means of presenting diverse views should not needlessly be constrained. I am resolved to address this issue and some others more thoroughly in the weeks ahead. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
: My two cents on this meta-discussion (which is not about the subject of those discussions, but the conduct of the discussants) –
:# Cirt has engaged in tendentious editing of protected pages in a manner that is that is unbecoming of an administrator. Administrators should display a greater appreciation of what does and does not constitute an established consensus (specifically, regarding image quantity), and must ''scrupulously'' avoid using false [[w:color of authority|color of authority]].
:# Kalki has used extensive tactics of obfuscation that disrupt the formation and expression of consensus. (Perhaps the most disruptive of these tactics is ''argumentum ad hominem'' rising to the level of incivility, but not least obfuscatory is the hypocritical defense of [[w:WP:OWN|exclusive control]] over Main page images on the basis of freedom for all.)
: Both of these contributors have done very good work for Wikiquote, and both have repeatedly engaged in poor conduct. I am not entirely sure what is the best course of action for dealing with the bad blood between these editors; but when it has reached the point that a longstanding pillar of the community like UDScott feels driven away and a regular contributor like Macspaunday feels discussion is futile, then it has clearly gone too far. I encourage both parties to undertake and evince major reform of their own conduct. Otherwise I will recommend imposing some sort of remedy even if it is not the best of all possible outcomes. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:28, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
:: I can appreciate many ''valid'' and ''admirable'' aspects of your assessments, though I do and must actually disagree rather strongly with some, and believe many people involved here have at times used various "tactics of obfuscation that disrupt the formation and expression of consensus" to various extents, and I believe that I am hardly the primary example of ''deliberately'' doing that, though I would ''acknowledge'' that I might easily ''seem'' that to some, on casual examination of ''many'' diverse contentions. '''I am confident that there are many more matters we could agree on than those we strongly disagree on''', and I actually believe that I could probably say the same of even someone I believe to be so regularly abusive of certain abilities as I believe Cirt to be, though are clear and extreme differences on some matters might long prevent many of these from becoming easily apparent to many, including ''ourselves''. '''I believe that I am far more willing to recognize the potentials and actualities of deficiencies and errors on my own part than most people realize''', often because of the intricacies and complications of the ways ''I'' do many things, and the ways ''they'' do as well. In coming months, probably mostly on my own user pages, I hope to provide many clearer indications of my own attitudes and inclinations in regard to many diverse things, and examples of my own experiences which might help others understand ''how'' and ''why'' many of these attitudes and inclinations have developed and strengthened, in various ways, over many years, and indeed, from a ''very'' early age. '''''[[Blessings]] to all.''''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
;Comment by Cirt in response to Ningauble
#Thank you, {{user|Ningauble}}, I should have sought out ways to discuss these pages, first, before editing protected pages, even to remove images which I felt violated our site policies.
#I agree with you, Ningauble, that it is unfortunate that our Main Page Quote of the Day process seems to be unfairly controlled by one (1) individual with regards to both quote selection and final layout of quote formatting.
#It would be nice to have a more collaborative process and discussion, ''before'' quotes appeared on the Main Page, as to how they will be presented.
#I have asked more specifically at [[User talk:Ningauble]], where this discussion occurs, if it even does at all, as to how to collaborate on talk pages about Main Page Quote of the Day formatting and layout, prior to these quotes appearing on the Main Page.
-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== Taking a break ==

I'm going to take a break from this site to focus on other quality improvement projects.

I'm glad that some of my views on image use on this website are supported by multiple other users at Village Pump, including:

#{{user|Jmackaerospace}}
#{{user|EVula}}
#{{user|Mdd}}
#{{user|Aphorist}}
#{{user|Macspaunday}}
#{{user|Nick1372}}
#{{user|TreeRol}}

Thank you,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
:The funny thing is that most of your opinions on image use are ones that I share (albeit maybe not to the level that you have) - especially pertaining to the ''selection'' of proper images. But the implementation of this is what I disagree with, particularly the number of images. Also, I do not always agree that the only possible image that should be used is a picture of the author. But by and large, I ''do'' agree that the images used on the Quote of the Day pages are not always the best or even appropriate. But I would rather discuss such disagreements and arrive at a consensus than to impose rules that are not fully discussed or blessed by the community. Were this merely a discussion about the content of the images, simply enforcing the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] should help, but I do not know of any official policy that limits the number of images to be used on such pages. The rough guideline of 4 images has been discussed (and even, ironically enough, endorsed by Kalki as a guide), but not yet made official policy. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:04, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I do believe 4 images is a good target to aim at, as a guideline, though not as an absolute rule, and believe it usually can be achieved, and have done this on most of my layouts lately — but there are some cases where image imbalances make it aesthetically desirable to sometimes use more, or only 3 or even 2, and in all cases I have increasingly aimed at a relatively simple layout, with clearly relevant images, and even though I often can envision some far more extensive ones, I have suppressed my impulses to use them. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

== request for a change of QOTD autolock specifications ==
:Opening up this section for editing will display the existing and suggested layouts '''better.'''

'''Probably because of some glitches in previous software, until recently the "auto-locking" of the QOTD layout often did not kick in until I ''deliberately'' triggered it to do so, with rather simple procedures, or someone else accidentally did.''' It seems to be more reliably locking things lately, two days ahead of time, and I have not always had QOTD layouts selected when the pages have been locked. Currently the 3rd and 4th of March are not generally editable; at this point, I have not yet even selected a quote for the third, as I realized earlier that the page was already locked, and I shifted focus to the 4th, while it was not yet locked, and selected a quote and developed a layout for it, which I completed before it locked.

::'''If an admin would open the auto protect specifications at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Protect]] from the current ones, which are: '''

<nowiki>
*[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|-1 days}}]]
*'''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}]]'''
*[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+1 days}}]]
*[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+2 days}}]]

----

{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|-1 days}}}}
{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}}}
{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+1 days}}}}
{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+2 days}}}}
</nowiki>

::'''Simply removing the bottom 2 lines in each section, would result in: '''

<nowiki>
*[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|-1 days}}]]
*'''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}]]'''

----

{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|-1 days}}}}
{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}}}
</nowiki>

::'''I believe this would protect ONLY the ''current'' day and the ''previous'' day's layout — but not protect them 2 days ahead of time, as it has recently been doing more reliably, but which probably isn't necessary.'''

::Though not actually troublesome, even the protection of the previous day's layout could probably be removed, as not really necessary, as the layout would no longer be displaying on the main page, and is not likely to be vandalized. '''That would leave the autolock only for ''current'' day arranged like this''':

<nowiki>
*'''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}]]'''

----

{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}}}
</nowiki>

::I have a few other things to do for a few hours, but will probably get back to selecting a quote for the 3rd soon, and whenever I finish with a layout, if no one has made such changes, or for some reasons objects to them, I will simply post it to "Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/March 3, 2014" and post a notice here that it needs to be moved to "Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 3, 2014" as I have done previously in such incidents. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Actually, I think protection a day in advance is more important than a day in arrears, particularly as midnight approaches and it becomes the current day. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I do actually agree with that assessment, but wasn't actually emphasizing its propriety, because overall the protections have rarely been needed, and attempts at vandalizing these pages had rarely occurred. I am just back from doing a few things elsewhere, and must be leaving again within a few hours, at least for another hour or so, and will certainly select and finish up something for the 3rd and post some indications of that here, before I leave. '''I do believe that alterations to the template to simply do a day in advance and the current day would be a good idea, and better than the current excess. Thank you.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:20, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I have now done selections up to the 5th of the month, and deliberately triggered the "auto-lock" once I was finished, so these pages are now set. I might attempt to do a few more QOTD selections today, at various times, but I would appreciate an alteration of specifications at the template page, so that in the future I won't need to keep at least 2 days ahead of things, but only one. For that, the layout would simply be:

<nowiki>
*'''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}]]'''
*[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+1 days}}]]

----

{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y}}}}
{{Wikiquote:Quote of the day/{{#time:F j, Y|+1 days}}}}
</nowiki>

::::: Though I am unlikely to fall behind any time soon now, alterations to the template will certainly be appreciated, and reduce the likelihood of needing to make further notices like these in the future. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 03:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{done|Removed protection}} of second day in advance, which seems to be what is causing inconvenience. Cascading protection will now apply to the current date ± one day in each direction. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 12:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Thanks much. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 13:07, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

==== [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 3, 2014]] ====
There is now a QOTD and layout prepared at '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/March 3, 2014]]''' which needs to be placed into '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 3, 2014]]'''. ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 01:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
::: Thank you ''very'' much. I noticed your edit, but was too busy with some other things to make note of it right away. I expect to be very busy on the internet in the next month or so, and not primarily here, though I do expect this will always be one of my favorite places to do quote work. I might attempt to do a few more days of QOTD selections today, so I don't fall behind again, as I get caught up in many other projects. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 01:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

====QOTD 26 March 2014 ====

I did fall behind in this one — I was juggling various ideas for several quotes for days, and I actually spent a few hours seeking at the commons, good images I might use with the "early leaf a flower" of golden hues, of which Frost speaks in the QOTD selected (among other ideas), and didn'tt find quite what I was looking for, but the best I could come up with seems okay, and is presented at '''[[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/March 26, 2014]]''', but it needs to be moved to '''[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 26, 2014]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:48, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

: {{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Thank you much — I am trying to throw something together now for tomorrow's QOTD before leaving… ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:34, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

== more protection requests ==

Perhaps [[Ketuanan Melayu]] should be semi-protected. Thanks ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:44, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}}: This is (re-)protected for a month. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 12:40, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Wiki.png]] ==

Please change the text to point to the new file linked to at the bottom of the page instead, as the current listed one is a redlink. Thanks, [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
: Is the redlink causing a problem? The statement that it was copied from there appears to be correct, and would be incorrect if a different location were substituted. (The exact history of the logo is obscured by trans-wiki moves and by deletion of originals and copies. Cf. [[:File:Ncwikiquote2.png]], from before the transparent backgound feature was added. Early discussion is archived at [[User:Neolux/Archive]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::Oh I see then. If you think it's not necessary, then it can be left alone, I trust your judgment on that. Anyway, I dug a little further into the Special:WhatLinksHere report for this image and found [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/Remaining non-free use images|this discussion]] about media files on Wikiquote in general. I was wondering, if Wikiquote decides to disallow fair use media (I think it allows fair use text as quotes) then I can ask a MediaWiki developer to re-point the "Upload file" button in the sidebar to automatically point to Commons instead so that regular Wikiquote users cannot upload files. I can also ask them to implement a change disallowing media uploads by administrators too, but I don't think that will be a popular change. How about it? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 16:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The "Upload file" button in the sidebar currently ''does'' link directly to Commons. I imagine this could be confusing to people who stumble upon it. It used to display a page stating that uploads are disabled here, with a link to Commons. (Wikiquote disabled local uploads years ago.) I think that older "soft redirect" was much more clear and helpful, and have no idea why it was changed globally. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== LTA abused IPs ==
Hello. A bunch of recent accounts by the resident LTA are on the IPs [[Special:Block/66.240.76.221|66.240.76.221]] and [[Special:Block/166.205.48.146|166.205.48.146]]. Blocking those for some period of time longer than the autoblocks of accounts could help prevent some disruption. Thanks, [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 18:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
:Thanks [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]]. The Wikiquote community is aware of this... Please see [[meta:User:Goldenburg111/Reports/Wikiquote Vandalism Statics]], all has been recorded their... --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:09, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

This request concerns
* {{IPvandal|66.240.76.221}}
* {{IPvandal|166.205.48.146}}
-- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== Bot ==

Hello. I requested bots at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposed unblocking of [[User:Daniel Tomé]] ==

This is a question to admins previously uninvolved in this issue. [[User:DanielTom]] has asked that I unblock the account registered under his former username, [[User:Daniel Tomé]], on the grounds that he has not used that account in any way that would merit a block. There are hypothetical reasons why a user could legitimately have access to an acknowledged second account (some of these are outlined at the draft [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] page, such as having a backup account from which to notify the community of one's main account is compromised). I am inclined to unblock as requested, unless there is some overriding concern that would counter so doing. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:I have no objections to unblocking this account. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 18:08, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The "user" (I) is already unblocked, but this account (which was [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Changing_username&diff=1550446&oldid=1550445 renamed] to "DanielTom", the name I currently use) is not. I don't plan on using the "Daniel Tomé" account. The one time I did use it, after the rename, was accidental, and I [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Reference_desk&diff=next&oldid=1557458 replaced] its signature with mine as soon as I noticed it, a few minutes later. At the time, I was still used to logging in with "Daniel Tomé", hence my "mistake". But even if the account had 100 edits, it would still not be a sock. Although the account was blocked under the excuse that it was a "sock", it was never really explained to me, how using my real name, or an account whose user and talk pages redirected to my "DanielTom" account, could fool anyone. Of course, I know the real reasons why it was blocked, but that I am not allowed to speak of. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:30, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
: What is relevant is the fact that it is an acknowledged account, from which no edits have intentionally been made, and for which there is no indication that the registrant would in fact use it in violation of any policy of this site. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

* Notwithstanding hypothetical uses mentioned by BD2412, the reason for this request does not seem to be an intent to use the account at all, but rather stems from a feeling that that the block ''insults the dignity'' of the user. The underlying reason for the block appears to have been some undignified conduct by the user at another wiki, with multiple accounts being a side issue of little significance. At the same time, the blocking administrator has also exhibited undignified conduct in the case. I find myself balancing a strong sense that respect for human dignity is fundamental to ethical conduct, on the one hand, with a strong sense that preoccupation with life's little indignities is the ultimate"[[Vanity|vanity of vanities]]", on the other. On balance, because helping someone to "get over yourself" is supremely difficult to accomplish, and in the absence of any credible risk to the project, I favor compassionate relief of the user's evident distress. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
** Well said (although I should add that the original blocking admin has contacted me through other channels to offer to lift this block). As there is unanimity on this point, the block is lifted. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 15:59, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
**: Ningauble: if there is any valid reason, under any interpretation, of any policy, to keep this account blocked, bring it forward, I would like to see it. I say, there is none, and further state that the block was part of a harassment campaign, that even escalated to death threats, and to which I would oppose, ''regardless'' of who was the user behind the account. That the account is mine, in the case at hand, is no excuse for my having to hear and tolerate lectures on "human dignity", which is the least of my concerns. You must have noticed by now, that I often do oppose similar abuses, by admins, against many other defenseless users. Needless to say, you can "favor compassionate relief" all you want, if that makes you feel noble. There is, of course, a valid concern, which I never concealed, that "Daniel Tomé" is my real name. [[Publilius Syrus]] warns us, that "A good reputation is more valuable than money," and I myself would like to know, if an editor such as myself, who has contributed extensively to this project, should have any right, in the present and future age, to the preservation of his name, and reputation, and if he should leave it, to be forever and completely tarnished with impunity? It would seem so, even though I've always made clear that the account "Daniel Tomé" is mine, and have never misused it in any way. Although the Gospel commands us to forgive offenses, the Holy Spirit also tells us, that we should take extreme care in the preservation of our good name, and reputation: ''Curam habe de bono nomine.'' I want to do both. Not just the laws of Christianity, but those of Nature, and of Reason, compel me to preserve my reputation, and to save it from the most ''outrageous'' offenses, that can be made to a member of society. ''Disse.'' J.A.M. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:29, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
***: I am not sure why you seem to be challenging Ningauble when his comments were in favor of lifting the block, as you requested. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
***:: There are two ways to interpret the time honored advice to protect one's reputation. The first is to provide a reason to conduct oneself in an upstanding manner, if a reason is needed, by appealing to self interest. The second is to provide an excuse for defensive or aggressive conduct, if an excuse is needed, by asserting self interest. Perhaps the reason BD2412 is seeking for this outburst lies in one or the other of these interpretations. Anyway, I plead guilty to the charge of committing random acts of homiletics. I try not to do it too often. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

== The "Global contributions" link ==

When I accessed a user's contributions page (located at /wiki/Special:Contributions/[IP address/username]), I was taken to the page '''https://toolserver.org/%7Eluxo/contributions/contributions.php?user=[IP address/username]&blocks=true&lang='''. The site says "Please fix your source link. New Address: http://tools.wmflabs.org/guc/" Therefore I believe the link on this wiki is obsolete and going to be replaced soon. Please fix it. [[User:Quenhitran|Quenhitran]] ([[User talk:Quenhitran|talk]]) 15:46, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
: The targeted [http://tools.wmflabs.org/?tool=guc guc tool] is not currently operational. "That tool might not have a web interface, or it may currently be disabled." I am not sure what is going on, but it isn't fixable on this end. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
:: This seems to be working now, at least intermittently. It has been added to the Sp-contributions-footer. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:52, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== MediaWiki pages need updating ==

* [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]]: Please update this message as per [[MediaWiki talk:Recentchangestext|the talkpage]], specifically add links for [[:cy:Arbennig:RecentChanges]], [[:wikidata:Special:RecentChanges|Wikidata]] and [[:wikivoyage:en:Special:RecentChanges|Wikivoyage]].
** {{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

* [[MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer]]: Please import the latest revision from either [[meta:MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer|Meta Wiki]] or [[:wikivoyage:en:MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer|Wikivoyage]], as those contain links to the latest tools since the toolserver overhaul (I personally asked a local admin at Wikivoyage to update theirs).
** {{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
*** Sorry @[[User:Mdd|Mdd]], can you please change yaec and supercount tools to point to enwikiquote_p and en.wikiquote instead of Meta? Thanks again for attending to this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 01:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
::: {{done|Fixed}} reference to the wrong wiki. For future reference: please be very careful when editing the MediaWiki interface, and always fully test the results. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:49, 3 April 2014‎
::::Thanks for double checking. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:23, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

* [[MediaWiki:Sp-contributions-footer-anon]]: Same as above.
** {{not done}} The latest revision from Meta Wiki works with the [[:template:fmbox]] template, and that template here on Wikiquote seems to be different than the Meta Wiki. If you try, then in the lay-out the box is missing...!? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
*** @[[User:Mdd|Mdd]], if you use [[meta:Special:ExpandTemplates]] the raw output code is this:
<pre>
<table id="sp-contributions-footer-anon" class="plainlinks fmbox fmbox-system " style="">
<tr>
<td class="mbox-image">[[Image:User-info.svg|40px|User info]]</td>
<td class="mbox-text" style="font-size: 90%;"><div>
This is the [[w:Help:User contributions|contributions page]] for an IP user, identified by the user's numerical [[w:IP address|IP address]]. Some IP addresses change periodically, and may be shared by several users. If you are an IP user, you may [[Special:Userlogin|create an account or log in]] to avoid future confusion with other IP users. Registering also hides your IP address. [[//toolserver.org/~overlordq/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?lookup=$1 WHOIS] '''·'''
[//www.robtex.com/ip/$1.html rDNS] '''·'''
[//www.dnsstuff.com/tools#traceroute/type=ipv4&&value=$1&& Traceroute] '''·'''
[//toolserver.org/~overlordq/scripts/checktor.fcgi?ip=$1 Tor check] '''·'''
[//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:BlockList&ip=$1 Current blocks] '''·''' [//tools.wmflabs.org/guc/?user=$1&blocks=true Global contributions]] '''·'''
[[[w:Regional Internet registry|RIR]]s: [http://whois.arin.net/rest/ip/$1.html America] '''·'''
[https://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?searchtext=$1 Europe] '''·'''
[https://www.afrinic.net/cgi-bin/whois?query=$1 Africa] '''·'''
[http://www.apnic.net/apnic-bin/whois.pl?searchtext=$1 Asia-Pacific] '''·'''
[http://www.lacnic.net/cgi-bin/lacnic/whois?lg=EN&query=$1 Latin America/Caribbean]]
</div></td>
</tr>
</table>
</pre>
::* Hope that helps, and thanks again for attending to this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 01:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
:::* It still doesn't work, and it contains some bugs. Can we not just adjust the [[:Template:Anontools]]? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 02:09, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

* [[MediaWiki:Uploaddisabledtext]]: Please change
<pre>
However, you can use images uploaded to [[commons:|Wikimedia Commons]] in the English Wikiquote...
...comply with the [[commons:Commons:Criteria for inclusion|Commons inclusion guidelines]], though you will need to create an account there...
</pre>
to
<pre>
However, you can use images uploaded to [[commons:Special:MyLanguage/Main Page|Wikimedia Commons]] on the English Wikiquote...
...comply with the [[commons:Commons:Criteria for inclusion|Commons inclusion guidelines]]...
</pre>
:* {{done}} [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 00:56, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Change reasoning: Add support for localization in case non-English speakers have a different language setting in their preferences, and remove "though you will need to create an account there" since SUL has (mostly) been finalized. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Current bot request. ==

Hi everybody. We currently has a [[Wikiquote:Bots|a request at Wikiquote:Bots]] for bots permissions. Please update the mediawiki board so more people can participate in this request. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} - the count has been updated. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:56, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
:::Thanks! --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Gadgets ==

I would appreciate it if the following 2 or 3 gadgets from English Wikipedia could be added to Wikiquote:
* [[mw:Snippets/Direct imagelinks to Commons]]
* [[w:MediaWiki:Gadget-righteditlinks.css]]
and maybe
* [[w:MediaWiki:Gadget-VectorClassic.css]] (a bit "political")
In my opinion, a few more gadgets would not make the currently rather short list at [[Special:Gadgets]] so long it could be confusing to users. Thanks in advance,    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    16:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Wikisource

2014-04-04T14:09:05Z

FDMS4: + parameter title

{{Sisterproject
|project=Wikisource
|image=Wikisource-logo.png
|text=[[w:Wikisource|Wikisource]] has original text related to:
|link={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
}}<noinclude>

[[Category:Interwiki link templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[de:Vorlage:Wikisource]]
[[fa:الگو:ویکی‌نبشته]]
[[pt:Predefinição:Wikisource]]
[[simple:Template:Wikisource]]
</noinclude>

Wikiquote:Village pump

2014-04-04T00:08:18Z

FDMS4: /* vandalism */ RE

__NEWSECTIONLINK__
{{Wikiquote:Village pump/Header}}

== Scientology ==

What does the community make of this edit by [[user:Cirt]] on the [[Scientology]] page?

These ten quotations (actually eleven entries, but one is a duplicate) only mention Scientology tangentially, and are all primarily about est or Werner Erhard and seem to have been cherry-picked to give a misleading impression that there is a far stronger connection to Scientology than existed in reality.

For example

*" The founder of EST, a former member of the Scientology church called Werner Erhard..."
*"*Est (Erhard Seminars Training) has been a singularly successful synthetic derivation, which has itself gone on to generate new movements, transmitting aspects of Scientology thought or practice far from the domain of L. Ron Hubbard."
*"Rupert (1992) discusses a range of cases... such as the human potential movement, est, or Scientology."
*"...and est/Forum was a repackaging of Scientology by Werner Erhard,..."
*"Werner Erhard's highly successful est cult is partly derived from Scientology."

etc.

The fact of the matter is that Erhard did a few Scientology courses in the space of five months in early 1970, at a time when he was avidly investigating a vast range of philosophies and disciplines, but that is not the impression that a reader of this page would be left with.

Does it not reflect negatively on the reputation of Wikiquote to have the Scientology page commandeered to serve as a coatrack to propagate misleading information about other organizations and individuals?

It may be relevant that Cirt has an extensive history of POV-pushing on these subjects on wikipedia, and in fact was de-sysopped and topic-banned for exactly that behavior [[w:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466#Remedies|there]]. After that, he concentrated on other wikimedia projects (where he has undoubtedly done a good deal of great work), but perhaps he cannot resist the temptation to return to his obsessions? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:'''Reply:''' {{done}}. I've gone ahead and voluntarily taken the initiative to move those above-mentioned quotes to the talk page, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=1654965&oldid=1643592 DIFF]. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to {{user|MLKLewis}}. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I do not feel that Cirt's response fully adresses my concerns. Although he has removed the five items that I listed above by way of example, he has left the other five equally questionable entries on the page. And what is the justification for inserting the removed material into the Talk page, which is meant to be for discussions about how to improve the Topic page?

Furthermore, is not the intense activity this last October at this page:
https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Landmark_Forum&offset=&limit=100&action=history
a further example of Cirt's attempting to hijack Wikiquote to propagate a personal viewpoint, an activity for which he was sanctioned at Wikipedia? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 07:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{user|MLKLewis}}, I'm glad you've acknowledged that I went ahead and removed entries from that page. If you participate in talk page discussion on the individual page I hope we can come to an amicable resolution together about this. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Quotes about notable social implications of technology ==

I would like to add quotes about particular scientific developments to Wikiquote. Is this ok?[[User:Open Research|Open Research]] ([[User talk:Open Research|talk]]) 13:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

:It should be perfectly fine as long as the subject fulfills [[WQ:N|our notability guideline]]. As a general rule of thumb, if there's a Wikipedia page, it's notable enough. Is there a particular development you want to add? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 01:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== Delete (not just lock) simple.wikiquote.org? ==

The simple-English wikiquote project at http://simple.wikiquote.org has been locked for some time, but it's still visible on the web, so it hasn't been fully closed. The simple English version of (apparently) 591 pages taints the whole project by making it look infantile - an impression reinforced by all those pages on the main site that use kindergarten-style images of galaxies and flames to illustrate abstract ideas. Isn't it time to remove it? [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 21:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: Though there are clearly many differences of opinion between us on many matters, here is something I believe we can agree upon. I never really liked the idea much, but for a time it was clear that at least a few others did, and I am usually loathe to suppress efforts of others needlessly. The quality of their productions never did find broad appeal, and their enthusiasms were eventually dismissed, derided and suppressed by others, and the project killed. As it seems to be a thoroughly defunct site, I believe its presence on the web should probably be removed, and would support any efforts to have this done, within whatever guidelines the Wikimedia Foundation have developed for doing so. ''R.I.P. Simple Wikiquote. So it goes…'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I also agree that it ought to be deleted. About three years ago, after the [[m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Simple English Wikiquote (3)|decision to "close" the project]] but before official policy for closures was adopted, I [[m:User talk:SPQRobin#Merging simple.wikiquote into en.wikiquote|discussed the final disposition]] of the ''WikiParaphrase'' project with a LangCom member, but I did not initiate formal proceedings at the time. If someone would like to do so, the official venue is at [[m:Proposals for closing projects]], and is governed by [[m:Closing projects policy]] under the auspices of [[m:Langcom|LangCom]] delegated by the Foundation Board. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:QoDList]] ==

This new template transcludes {{tl|QoDBar}} and is able to output a list of all Quotes Of The Day for a given month, via [[Module:QoD]]. So [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 2014]] and such wouldn't have to be handled manually. Do you support implementing it practically? --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
: It is not immediately obvious to me how this works. Viewing the new [[Template:QoDList]], the output of "#invoke:QoD|list" is null. I am guessing, from examining the code of [[Module:QoD]], that it depends on the context where the template is transcluded. Could you provide a sample page exemplifying use of the new template in a context where the module output is non-null, and consider fleshing out some documentation or usage notes at [[Template:QoDList/doc]] and/or [[Module:QoD/doc]]? Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]]: it depends on the page, but the month-year pair can also be specified manually (as <nowiki>{{#invoke:QoD|list|June 2013}}</nowiki>). You can see {{tl|QoDList}} in action on [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013]] ([{{fullurl:Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013|diff=1662309&oldid=1646908}} {{int:diff}}]). I also added some docs, feel free to edit them. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 15:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

== Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James ??? ==

[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=William_James&oldid=1664112&diff=prev DIFF] = Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James.

Does this community think this is too many images for a page?

Does the community feel this will cramp down on loading time for our readers, discouraging them from viewing pages on Wikiquote?

Does the community feel this will make load time difficult for editors, turning them off from editing Wikiquote?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:This member of this community does NOT think "this is too many images for a page." '''The VERY highly used Wikimedia Commons places FAR more images on a standard page.''' I can appreciate that some people who do not have fast connections (for whatever reasons this might be the case) will not easily appreciate ''many'' of the pages on the internet with graphics. Yet I do not believe that these relative few who do not use some auxiliary browsers set for faster browsing without images, to hasten the time of downloading pages without such graphics as are quite standard on MOST web-pages today, should keep our pages permanently crippled to a highly constrained standards which might have made some sense 10 years ago, but are hardly appropriate today. '''I believe nothing is more likely to be "turning anyone off" from editing Wikiquote than such bossiness with constraints as a ''very few'' people have been increasingly pushing here in recent years — by which they can control more of what others can or cannot do, and reducing the options available to others here in ways I have frankly found disgusting and contemptible, and often extremely hypocritical — and I am quite ready to make plain some of the reasons why in the coming months.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Whatever the merits or faults of the policy, it's clear that this part of it has frequently been ignored by some editors:

::"'''Dispute resolution''' An image that is not a literal representation of the subject of the page may be removed by any editor who believes it to be inappropriate. Thereafter, it should not be re-added without first obtaining consensus on the article talk page."

Perhaps it might be better to follow established and unambiguous policy rather than ignore it merely because (apparently) an editor doesn't like it? - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

:: '''I have sometimes engaged in [[w:direct action|direct action]] of rather mild and moderate [[civil disobedience]] in accord with the principles of [[Justice]] and [[Liberty]] that others seem quite satisfied to give little more than a lot of shallow and safe "lip service" to.''' In this particular case, I view "the merits or faults of the policy" that was devised by a few people some months ago as nothing more or less than thoughtlessly or deliberately giving free reign to those most eager to '''[[Censorship|censor]]''', VANDALIZE and remove any traces of MANY of the IDEAS and ''efforts'' of others to make generally important points and generally appealing presentations of the quotes here.''' I am actually inclined to use far harsher terms, but restrain myself for now.''' Even at the start I recognized these proposed "rules" as contemptible and unworthy of any significant respect, as simply devices providing ''implicit'' sanction and approval to the most narrow-minded, intolerant and malicious of people, most eager to denigrate the contributions of others, to destroy as rapidly as they could, and with VERY little consideration, what others might have taken months or years of careful consideration to gradually produce. '''I truly consider the fact that so inanely destructive and foully ''[[fascist]]'' an "ideal" and ''practice'' as those INNATELY unjust "policies" represent have not been recognized as such by others as simply disgraceful.''' Such an atmosphere created by the increasing arrogance and smug intolerance of those who seek to control and constrain others, and the bafflement and disgust of those who wish to contribute in the spirit of liberty advocated by the greatest of people, and which was one of the foundational principles of the wiki software, and the Wikimedia projects themselves is what I believe far more people than myself find appalling and sometimes discouraging.

:: Prior to the above statement I was going to make this relevant point: A standard setting at Wikimedia Commons, which is the source of all the imagery available to us, provides 200 image thumbnails to a page, and such is what I get quite swiftly when I click on '''[[commons:Category:Nature|Category:Nature]]'''. This once could mean a very long download time, but certainly does not with most users who are likely to do much browsing on the internet at all today. I certainly do not plan to use that many on any article page here — but to make large pages with even dozens of images on them, which are relatively rare and probably always will be, seem incredibly burdensome to most users is something I believe is ludicrous. I would probably spend more time saying a bit more, but I have to be leaving now, and am already running a bit late on important matters. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::I agree with the comment by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. However with regards to this particular page I will leave it to others to hopefully take action here regarding the violations of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] that have taken place, as noted by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Block ==

Please block [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:YODO_(You_Only_Die_Once) User:YODO (You Only Die Once)], this user is obviously immature, one example is stating in one of his edit summaries: ''Get a life you sockpuppet!''. I spoke with DanielTom at Meta. I will be here to revert his vandal-edits. To be honest, I don't care if I engage in an edit war. The administrators here are not very active. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Goldenburg111]] ([[User talk:Goldenburg111|talk]]) 18:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:Looks like no admin is around right now, so I've blocked that user for one day. Please review the action and take (if needed) further action. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 20:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:I yet blocked another user: [[User:Tell me about it!]]. As above, review the action taken and adjust it as you seem it fits. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks, both have been re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Personally, I would do a 3 month block, but that's me. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks, I just issued another block on {{user|DarknessFalls74}}. As with the two above, please review the action taken and adjust it as needed. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks, the user is re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback ==

I am requesting rollback permission is so I can easily rollback vandal edits. I also "participated in the [[User:YODO (You Only Die Once)]] vandal attack", and it was pretty hard undoing his edits and I usually got into edit conflicts. Clarifying that Rollback Rights are given to users to easily revert '''pure''' vandalism. I just tagged a few spam pages for deletion and reverted a vandal-only account's action of a page recently. I am also a rollbacker on the Simple English Wiktionary, and of course, I would be in big trouble if I was lying. I am an Anti-Vandal Worker at Meta and Wikipedia. I am also an admin and bureaucrat on the Orian Test Wiki and admin at the Test Wiki. I am also, at Wikia, currently an admin on 10 wikis and crat on 5 of those wikis. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:The best thing for you to do would be to request Adminship at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] so that the merits of your request can be discussed and determined. My sense is that you have made many positive edits and reverted plenty of vandalism. The only question might be the relatively short period of time in which you have been editing here, but that may or may not be a large stumbling block. In the end, it would be best to formally request it and let the discussion begin. Good luck. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]])
::Okay, thanks UDScott, one question, can I take this subject off? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I would just leave it and maybe direct readers to the [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] page, should they wish to contribute to the discussion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@UDScott: I feel it is unwise to encourage Golden to run for adminship so prematurely, as he wouldn't stand a chance (despite his best intentions), and the result could upset him. @Golden: even if you don't have rollback rights, you can still revert vandalism. I know you want to help out, but please try to be patient. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::@DanielTom: As quoted by Jimbo Wales, "no big deal". --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Goldenburg111 does not realise that on WQ, only admins can be granted rollback.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:(Is this true? Abramsky, what do your <s>elf</s> admin eyes [[Special:UserRights|see]]?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:: It is not a separately grantable user right at Wikiquote: there is no "Rollbacker" user group like at Wikipedia. Rollback is included in the rights of the Administrator group, as shown at [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. (The corresponding configuration at Wikipedia is much more complex and [[Bureaucracy|bureaucratic]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Request for comment on Commons: Should Wikimedia support MP4 video? ==

''I apologize for this message being only in English. Please translate it if needed to help your community.''

The Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Multimedia|multimedia team]] seeks community guidance on a proposal to support the [[w:MP4|MP4 video format]]. This digital video standard is used widely around the world to record, edit and watch videos on mobile phones, desktop computers and home video devices. It is also known as [[w:MP4|H.264/MPEG-4 or AVC]].

Supporting the MP4 format would make it much easier for our users to view and contribute video on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects -- and video files could be offered in dual formats on our sites, so we could continue to support current open formats (WebM and Ogg Theora).

However, MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, and using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only supporting open formats on our sites -- even though the licenses appear to have acceptable legal terms, with only a small fee required.

We would appreciate your guidance on whether or not to support MP4. Our Request for Comments presents views both in favor and against MP4 support, based on opinions we’ve heard in our discussions with community and team members.

[[commons:Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video|Please join this RfC -- and share your advice]].

All users are welcome to participate, whether you are active on Commons, Wikipedia, other Wikimedia project -- or any site that uses content from our free media repository.

You are also welcome to join tomorrow's [[m:IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours|Office hours chat on IRC]], this Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC, if you would like to discuss this project with our team and other community members.

We look forward to a constructive discussion with you, so we can make a more informed decision together on this important topic. [[m:User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


: I am not sure anyone here is qualified to translate from English to Quotish, but if somebody wants to give it a try.... ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Global sysops ==

Hello Wikiquote community!

As you may have seen, I recently blocked some accounts on this project in my capacity as [[m:Stewards|steward]]. In the light of the fact that this project has only few really active sysops, I'd like to suggest you to allow [[m:Global sysops|global sysops]] acting on your project. Those users are being elected on meta to help small projects with the removal of vandalism etc. They're generally supposed to not act like a normal locally elected admin and will mostly only act in emergencies. I could imagine that this would help here from time to time. While I'm technically able to issue blocks or delete page (just as any other steward), I feel rather uncomfortable doing this, as I'd rather see that done by local people.

I could very well imagine that this would help here. Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed and the same would be needed to remove them at any point when needed. Please take your time and consider this idea carefully. If you've any further questions, please feel free to ping me. Kind regards, -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:Barras, why would you feel uncomfortable blocking obvious rampant vandals? I agree with you, that it should be preferably done "by local people", but global sysops aren't "local" either, and I don't understand how global sysops would do a better job in answering emergencies and stopping rampant vandals than stewards do (besides, as far as I know, there are many more stewards than global sysops). Recent vandalism spree aside (which was done by sockpuppets that need to be checked and blocked), I believe the ideal solution is to have more ''local'' active admins, which is why I suggested [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] to run for adminship again. (At least that would be my preference.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Stewards can't watch everything, simply put. Global sysops help fill in the gaps of steward coverage, which I believe was one reason the group was created in the first place.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]|[[:m:User talk:Jasper Deng|meta]]) 04:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:I would support adding GS, but I have a COI as I am one myself. ;) See my contributions for all the stuff I could have blocked if this wiki were opted-in. Of course, it's up to the community. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Per PiRSquared17. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Smaller projects should always opt in for Global Sysops, since it is not that simple to get more active local admins. Should the en.q community start a discussion about opting in, I would support (and I have no COI). --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Global sysops cheapen local adminship, and only in cases of the utmost necessity (e.g. really small wikis) should they be opted-in. I, for one, tend to think that any help fighting vandalism should be welcomed. Unfortunately, judging by recent comments on a local unrelated discussion, we can't even expect stewards to stay neutral, let alone global sysops. There are further problems, related to WQ's specific policies, which I'm not even going to get into. I would like to highlight, though, that the description of global sysops as "''highly trusted users''" should make any thinking person suspicious. Just when did we elect these global sysops? I don't remember voting for any of them myself. Sure, there are some very well-meaning, good users in this group, for example [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|Érico Júnior Wouters]] and [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]]. But I can also see a couple of names I very strongly ''distrust'', of cruel unhelpful people whose apparent job it is to collect hats, and whom I very much doubt would ''ever'' be elected local sysops via normal process. That's my warning, for what it's worth (not much). I think GS should only be opted in after a strong consensus for it amongst our established admins. (I doubt such a consensus will ever be achieved, but who knows.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Global sysopship (along with global rollback and some other global groups) is requested on [[m:SRGP]]. For example, [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_PiRSquared17|my request]], [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_.C3.89rico_J.C3.BAnior_Wouters|Érico]]'s request. Anyone can comment on a candidate. Global sysops ''only ever act'' (in theory) when the request is uncontroversial (such as spam/vandalism) and no local admins are around to deal with it. Does that answer some of your questions? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well, as you know, Meta elections are kind of a joke. People who'd have no chance of being elected admins at Wikipedia again get elected global sysops... And although it is said that if we opt-in, we can then also opt-out, it's more of a one-way street, as I think it would be very difficult to establish a consensus to opt-out afterwards. Obviously global sysops can't be locally desysopped, so we need to be careful. Your description of what they can do seems misleading. It appears to me that global sysops can act without being requested, and they don't just revert obvious vandalism, but also engage in "routine maintenance" (their purpose per policy), which in turn means they, who are not familiar with Wikiquote's policies, may end up deleting pages they shouldn't. And again, it's not as if we can't ask the help of stewards to block vandals in case of emergency. It also seems to me that Wikiquote is actually [[m:Global sysops#Scope|out of scope]] for GS, and I would very much like to hear what our local admins think of this proposal, though I doubt they will be so blunt as me in saying that it threatens Wikiquote's independence. I still think the solution for Wikiquote is through local admins, and if global sysops are so eager to help (*cough*), they can go through the normal process and be elected here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: To clear up a couple misunderstandings:
:::# [[m:Global sysops|Global sysops]] are not elected. They are appointed by Stewards after taking public comment. They serve at the pleasure of the Stewards, assisting with their workload by handling routine tasks that do not require more advanced rights.
:::# Wikiquote is not out of scope. Any project can opt in or opt out: the default described in the policy applies only to projects that do not opt either way.
::: Whether you trust the Stewards to appoint people who can be trusted to respect the bounds of their role, whether you trust the Stewards to step in if someone exceeds those bounds, that is your call. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Global sysops perform routine maintenance. That is their purpose. In practice, this amounts to spam, vandalism/long-term abuse, and noncontroversial routine requests. If enwikiquote is opted in, GS will surely respect local policies, but you can't expect us to read every single wiki's policies before acting. At least I haven't (but I do usually look at the deletion reason dropdown to see if they have a similar "speedy deletion" criterion to what I will use. I almost never block.). Usually the stuff we do is completely noncontroversial, and we tend only to act in emergencies or when local admins are unavailable. [[m:Special:WikiSets/7]]: enwikiquote and plwikiquote are the only Wikiquotes opted out of GS help. Ningauble is correct that any project can opt in or out. The scope on Meta is just the default. Also: being a global sysop is much easier and less complicated than being a local admin on (English or another large) Wikipedia, as you mentioned. Global sysops ''only'' do noncontroversial maintenance tasks, whereas an admin on enwiki is expected to be able to determine consensus, deal with private matters, act in controversial cases or in drama like ANI, etc. In fact becoming a steward might [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chenzw/Reports/Draubb&diff=prev&oldid=7138137 be easier] than having a successful enwiki RfA. Do you think [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Global_permissions&oldid=7271149#Global_sysop_for_JurgenNL this] ongoing RFGS is a joke? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, I'm glad to see two global sysops (Rschen and yourself) admitting that becoming a ''steward'' (=> access to IPs) could be much easier than getting ''adminship'' – good heavens! am I the only one who thinks something is terribly wrong here? If this is true of stewards, it must be even more so of global sysops, and I might add I personally am shocked and offended to see that someone like Rschen is a global sysop. Opting in will be something of a historical moment for WQ, because in truth there is no turning back, even if ''theoretically'' we could opt out again – who would then be willing to oppose global sysops?, how would we ever reach that consensus? In any case, those were just a few observations before our admins gave their opinions, and as they apparently don't seem to mind GS being opted in, it might just be that you'll have your wish. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::If you're going to attack me, at least get my quote right - I said that it is much easier than getting adminship ''on en.wikipedia''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Not sure, who "attacks" who. I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Daniel_Tom%C3%A9&diff=559458856&oldid=559445353 this]. Pretending that a public rename is a sock, just to defame my real name, that seems to me much more of an "attack" than my saying I am offended that you are are in any position of responsibility. I see you keep trying to collect hats, and that after recently failing to get CU on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get ''stewardship'' at Meta. What a disgrace. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Who is attacking who is you. What Rschen did at that particular diff is standard practise at enwiki, if a user is deemed a sock, they are tagged. The fact the account existed even a rename means the account exists ergo, a sockpuppet. The fact Rschen failed to get CU is like me failing to get rollback here and then asking for Bureaucrat at Wikidata, they have 0% relation. Also your description of Rschen actually willing to help out Wikimedia is the disgrace here. Good faith volunteers deserve credit, not defamatory comments. Now that is said, get back to doing something constructive unlike we've seen at metawiki. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: The guy who admits to never editing articles tells me to go do "something constructive". Why do you show up here, just to share your ignorance on the difference between socks and public renames? I challenge ''you'' to try and make a single edit to an article before commenting here again and embarrassing yourself further. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Whether I edit articles now or not is '''my''' choice. Nothing for you to comment on simply because you're losing the 'but mom, Rschen is the one being mean!' battle. Oh and yes, maybe I don't edit articles but hey, I am constructive. I do SWMT work, did a month of administrator work at a small wiki and do some-what active work on Wikidata. And on enwiki, I active help new users get accounts. See, I give people accounts not create them for myself and then abuse them. Now, as I said, be constructive anyway you want except through derogatory comment at Rschen and arguing about how people follow polices when dealing with clearly abusive users. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: You still haven't made even 1 edit to articles, and most likely never will. Calling me abusive doesn't count as an article edit. You have nothing to contribute to Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why don't '''both''' of you stop? Instead of bickering? You guys are acting like children here! I would suggest both of you stop this pointless discussion. Wikiquote's Village Pump is not for both of you to bicker about pointless stuff. I expect better from both of you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:35, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Just shut up about god damn editing of articles. I am not violating policies by not doing it. Last comment here. Future comments I'd like at my talk page. If not, I'll just move them over. Peace. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Did I hit a nerve? Do you feel embarrassed for never editing articles? I certainly would. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
* I would not be averse to opting in. Having been unable to give as much time to Wikiquote myself in recent months as in previous years, no longer being able to review the entire RC log every day, I have a sense that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
*: ''Non sequitur'', as global sysops can ''already'' patrol recent changes, just like any other user; problem is, most of them ''just don't bother to'', and this is very unlikely to change even if we opt-in. (What would change is, someone who already patrols recent changes could notify them at Meta of vandal attacks, and they would then be able to step in and block the vandals. But if you think that global sysops are going to start magically reviewing every change to articles once they are opted-in, you are just fooling yourself.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*:: What follows from my observation is that I believe a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, more things than when I was patrolling more. I did not say, and it does not follow (''non sequitur'') that global sysops would patrol in the manner that I used to do, nor that nothing would slip through the cracks. Things have always slipped through the cracks anyway. What would follow is more [[w:Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates#Popular culture: the legend of the boy and the dike|little Dutch boys]] plugging more of the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*::I'm sure [[m:SWMT]] will monitor enwikiquote, if it doesn't already. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
*:::It does since yesterday (a contributor from this wiki requested it to be added on IRC). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
* I agree. I think the benefits of having off-project admins able to step in and stop vandalism outweigh any downside. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*: These global sysops can already revert vandalism, they just don't do it, because they don't patrol WQ's recent changes. They would only be of help in case someone who does patrol it should ask them to block rampant vandals. But for this there already are stewards, who are more in number than global sysops. Opting in will be a historically bad decision. WQ is almost the only wiki standing independent, like a diamond in the desert, but you seem to be willing to trade its independence for nothing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*Agree with these comments by {{u|Ningauble}} and {{u|BD2412}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to close this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
* Late here, but I'm also in support of opting in here.  [[User:Hazard-SJ|Hazard]] [[User talk:Hazard-SJ|SJ]]  20:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am not adamantly hostile to the idea, but I really have not as yet examined the issues involved much, and certainly would not wish to rush into opting in. As there is at least one prominent editor who I generally respect who seems adamantly opposed, I remain reluctant to support it at this point. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*:That's fine, take your time. There's no rush to decide whether you want GS or not, obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone else would comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

* In the light of the recent events concerning the request to a global block, I am far from convinced that global sysops and their supporters can overcome the cultural differences. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Global sysops have nothing to do with global blocking or locking. That is a steward thing. Yes, stewards and global sysops have some things in common, but really there is a huge difference. However, I can see how this would change your opinion of Meta, cross-wiki maintenance, etc. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
* I personally don't feel this wiki has a need for a GS opt-in and looking at [[Special:ActiveUsers]] I would rather refuse to perform any actions here. Unless the community wants the GS to play a significant role in countervandalism work (which I don't expect) I am not supporting any movement towards an opt-in. Please also note my COI in this case. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Thanks for your comments, Vogone. I would generally agree, except in cases where a vandal is around when no admins are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
As a strong believer in democracy, and in the independence of each wiki, I would like to urge everyone again to be extra careful here. Many people try to interfere with wiki processes and decision making in ways we are not (and can't even be) aware of. If you want an example, see [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34220 this leaked discussion] of ArbCom, and read what they say about Wikiquote. This has happened before, and will happen again, sooner or later. Everyone has their own interests in mind, which is fine, but ''we'' responsible Wikiquote editors should resist and not give away power to outsiders needlessly, and do our best to keep the Wikiquote project as independent as possible. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*::Being a global sysop is completely different from being on the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. Global sysops only deal with spam (including spambots, linkspam, etc.) and vandalism. I do not know exactly what made Barras start this discussion, but please note that nobody is trying to force this on you. If you decide against it, that's fine, but GS are experienced and willing to help with tasks that most would find tedious. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
*Would a local admin like to review the discussion above? Once that happens, if there is consensus to opt-in, stewards can remove enwq from the opt-out list. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 07:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
*:Bump. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 12:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
*::[[User:Mdd|Mdd]]: update? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
*:::@PiRSquared. I think Wikiquote will benefit from Global sysops's the most, if the most active users and local sysops's here see the need, and would welcome this initiative. At the moment only half of them do, and the other half have some kind of doubt. When it comes to granting administrator rights here on Wikiquote, there must be more consensus to do so.
*:::Now in the first comment here Barras explained "Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed". Frankly I don't see this discussion as a vote. I am used (at the Dutch Wikipedia), that before some kind of vote started, there first must be an announcement at the Village pump; And I have more or less considered this discussion as such an announcement. Shouldn't a real vote be held at a page, such as [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]], during a limited period? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::::As far as I see it, only clear consensus in favour of opting in to GS needs to be provided. Which process the community undergoes to reach that is probably irrelevant to the stewards and at the discretion of the local community. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 19:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:::::Let it be clear, that the vote Barras suggested hasn't taken place; In such a situation it would be not appropriate to let a local administrator review this discussion, as Ajraddatz suggested. There is in my opinion no clear consensus about either the procedure, either about the subject to opt-in the Global sysops here. Let it also be clear that only a handful of active Wikiquote users have participated in this matter. In order to get more clearance, and a larger participation I propose to start a vote at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] for a period of a week, which can be accepted when 75% of the participants agree. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
[[File:Piazza del Plebiscito - Augusto De Luca.jpg|frameless|right]]
Another argument against opting-in: global sysops have recently been deleting a userpage by a user, consisting of a simple picture (right), on hundreds of wikis, claiming it is spam. Here too, the userpage was tagged for deletion, by a global sysop [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Augusto_De_Luca&diff=1701918&oldid=1700992], with the rationale: "crosswiki spam". The speedy deletion was declined, replace by a Prod, and now a [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca|VfD]] is taking place. I predict the page will eventually be deleted. But then, you ask, wasn't tagging the page, suggesting that it be deleted, proper after all? Yes, it was. Then what is the problem? The problem, you see, is that it was only tagged, and not outright deleted, because global sysops are not opted in here. (I say, we should keep it that way.) Each community should be allowed to weigh in, and decide for themselves what to do in cases like this... ''roar''... ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Global sysops usually don't delete pages on wikis with local active sysops even if the wikis are opted-in. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 11:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*[[User:Barras]]: as stated by [[User:Mdd]]. No. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Admin nomination of Kalki ==

As some are aware, I was once an admin here (from 29 January 2004 to 1 December 2009), and I have now nominated myself to regain adminship at '''[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship‎‎ |Requests for adminship‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

----

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] states that "Adminship nominations must be posted for '''at least one week''', to provide opportunity for comments and voting, before a bureaucrat will make the promotion if warranted". This sets a minimum time but not a maximum. We have routinely allowed these discussions to stay open for longer times, to allow the community the greatest opportunity to find and weigh in on the discussion (see, e.g., [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Mdd]]). Indeed, since your request for closure, an additional opinion has been offered which has changed the proportion of support from 66.7% to 60%. I would give it a few more days. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, sounds good. Thank you, {{u|BD2412}}, I'll defer to your judgement. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== User Creation Logs ==

We need an active sysop to block the recent account creations. Since YODO was blocked, we have been getting some recent vandals here. Any opinions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yeah, there's definitely a vandal/sock attack currently. I'm watching and can get stewards if needed. Maybe [[User:Jni]] could help...? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[User:Mdd|Mdd]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::And thank you both. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'll be online for next couple hours and can help with pest control for sure! I was tracing one sock/vandal from en-wp to here in fact. I've been mostly inactive for few years so please tell me if I do something stupid with the admin tools. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I am thinking about adding a template where we can place it on a user talk page saying that their name is not appropriate for wikiquote. But we need a sysop to block the inappropriate username. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions ==

Anyone can contribute to [[User:Goldenburg111/Wikiquote in 2014]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
: The page says "This page is to document issues with Wikiquote since January 1, 2014." What kind of issues? I for one think that we need a complete top down reimagining of the software, so that quotes can be sorted by every kind of data (topic, author, date, kind of work, etc.). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Issues = Sockpuppetry, canvassing by Cirt at Meta, causing drama and disruption. Different sockpuppeters and new accounts made for vandalism. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::: It's your userspace, you're free to do as you will with it. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment:''' I understand that Kalki and I have had disagreements over interpretations of his behavior patterns in the past. For this reason after much thought I've decided not to comment further upon the ongoing RFA. I'll instead respectfully defer to the community in the discussion there. Have a great day, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::: While it's your userspace, you can collect notes of that nature there if want to, but is it really that constructive activity? Sounds like stirring more drama and disruption. Sockpuppet notice board might be useful though, especially tracking for cross-wiki sockpuppeteers. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 10:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thank you jni for clarifying, is it okay to add notes about main points instead of specific users being "called out"? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is certainly better than calling out individual users. But I'd avoid even creating such a page in first place. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think there is any policy forbidding user's maintaining bulletin/notice board kind of pages in their user space (and I'd hate bureaucrazy like that here). [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 15:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Citation error ==

Hey, I've got no idea what's wrong with the citations over at [[Stephenie LaGrossa]]. All I did was copy it over from Wikipedia. Is citation style different here? [[User:Survivorfan1995|Survivorfan1995]] ([[User talk:Survivorfan1995|talk]]) 18:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hi. You forgot to add <nowiki><references/></nowiki>, but in any case Wikiquote's [[Wikiquote:Templates#Formatting guidelines|formatting guidelines]] are a bit different than those of Wikipedia, so I've re-formatted the article accordingly. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

== Activist group public relations announcement being put forward as a 'quote' ==

As shown in [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Abortion&diff=0&oldid=1674179 this edit], an IP editor is repeatedly inserting an announcement by an anti-abortion activist organization, an announcement that is not notable, nor is it traceable to a single person. As such, I don't think it can be called a quote. This IP editor has in the past repeatedly tussled with me over the attribution of abortion quotes, challenging the findings of Ann D. Gordon who is the top scholar on Susan B. Anthony's life. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== WikiProject Name Confusion ==

Hi Wikiquote and all of it's fellow members! I am thinking about a Wikiquote WikiProject. I want to create a wikiproject that encourages users to clean up at least one article in a week. In a few months, the cleanup categories would be blank! I am still struggling on the name of the project. Any suggestions for the name? Or any suggestion on the Project itself? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:How about WikiProject Weekly Cleanup? Direct and to the point. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks BD2 for your suggestions. I think that's a good name. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's one as well WikiProject: Article Cleanup project? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] 22:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: I think we've preferred to call them pages rather than articles here (to contrast with Wikipedia's "article" space and Wiktionary's "entry" space). Come to think of it, we really don't have the tradition of WikiProjects here that Wikipedia does, although we could surely use some. For example, we could coordinate with [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Law|WikiProject Law]] and [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine|WikiProject Medicine]] to improve our pages covering these specific fields. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I bet this one would benefit Wikiquote easily. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]] ==

You may feel free to join! Any suggestions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom]] ==
Hello, per [[m:Global bans]], a general requirement of a global bans request for comment is notify all projects where the user subject to the ban has editied. DanielTom is either an active editor or a past editor of this wiki and therefore I am notifying the project of this proposal. Everyone is welcome to go and voice their opinion of the proposal and about the user in general. Thanks, [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:Global bans can create serious consequences, I'd urge users to look at this ban proposal. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I have left my own comment of opposition to [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom|this '''''there''''']], and like '''Abd''' have requested a speedy dismissal of this as a quite unwarranted request. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Reading distorted descriptions of yourself painted in the worst possible light can be slightly amusing, or extremely depressing, considering how other people might take this garbage seriously. If anything, this shows how extremely unwise it is to edit under anything close to your real name, though I'm sure most people here don't need to be reminded of that. Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented there, I appreciate it. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
: I am glad to see you're back and this particular nonsense has ended. I would advise remaining ''cautious'' though. I, for years, have put up with some nonsense which in some ways has not been quite that immediately consequential — and am willing to continue to do so, with confidence that when truths are sufficiently assessed, whatever the faults or deficiencies I might have inadvertently manifested in the courses of events will clearly be perceived to not be the most grievous ones. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
* I am glad the ban request was quickly withdrawn before I wasted any time drafting an explanation of why it was a mistake. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am also glad, that this ban request is withdrawn. It would be nice if these past events would be resolved instead of keep coming back. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

== Main Page Images ==

The average number of images per quote of the day has gotten quite high, with there being 10 separate images on January 30 (which were, to this user, very difficult to look at). Was there ever a consensus reached about the number/size/quality of images on the main page, and if so, is it being followed? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
: Extensive discussion in 2011–2012 reached an apparent consensus that this is too much, but not how much is ok. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_35#Images_on_Main_Page] [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_36#Main_Page_and_images]) This nonspecific consensus was enforced for a time by removing ''all'' images pending adoption of a specific policy. Images returned to the main page just under a year ago, without any policy or guideline, and attempts to moderate their quantity have been reverted. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Wikiquote:Quote_of_the_day.2FApril_2013_-_lay_out]) In short: (1) no, there is no express consensus for what should be included, and (2) no, consensus for what should not be included, vague though it be, is not being followed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' I do not think the attempts to moderate the quantity of images on the Main Page should have been reverted. It is quite frustrating to see a community consensus summarily reverted and arbitrarily ignored. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I have followed the discussion on and off for the past few years, and I understand the two sides - that there is a consensus, and there is a very active minority that doesn't care for that consensus. Can we (well, you, since I'm not qualified) actually create a policy that reflects the consensus, or at the very least limits the number/size/quality of images (say, one on each side and a small one above and below, which, though still excessive, at least leaves the front page readable)? Or, alternatively, is it not even worth it? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 19:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::I echo the concerns of {{user|132.177.170.36}} and agree with the comments made here. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
----
I find the comments on this issue in this section rather misleading in various ways, but especially reject the implied assertions that any actual wide ranging consensus was arrived at after any substantial or extensive periods of active debate, despite the periods of months or years during which these contentions have sometimes VERY briefly occurred, and gone largely ignored by others, either unaware of them, or too disinterested or intimidated by the intensity of opinions to get involved.

Though sometimes I can do some rather quickly, It often takes much work and considerable effort and thought to produce a good layout, and I confess I do not always succeed to my own satisfaction with the materials available, but for many years I have done what I could with the quotes available here and the images available at the commons, and I believe that this service is a generally valued and appreciated one, based upon the comments of people with as yet little or no personal involvement here in the issue.

On 31 January 2012, there was an act of aggressive and arrogant '''''[[censorship]]''''' which was suddenly imposed by one admin who I believe simply sensed an opportunity to further harass and constrain my activities here with but little complaint likely from others most actively involved in these matters at the time. Clearly without much regard for permitting any further discussions, and inclined to take the most radically severe steps available, he decided to destructively edit what I believe was a quite good and relevant layout for February 3, a few minutes after I posted it:
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:DonMcLeanWestport2009.jpg|222px]] [[Image:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:SépultureCathelineau.JPG|121px]] ''I went down to the [[Holiness|sacred]] store Where I'd heard the [[music]] years before But the [[man]] there said the music wouldn't play And in the streets the [[children]] screamed The [[Love|lovers]] cried and the [[poets]] [[Dreams|dreamed]] But not a [[Words|word]] was [[Speaking|spoken]] The [[church]] [[bells]] all were broken And the three men I [[Admiration|admire]] most [[w:American Pie (song)|The Father, Son and Holy Ghost]] They caught the last [[Trains|train]] for the coast [[w:The Day the Music Died|The Day the Music Died]].'' ~ [[Don McLean]] ~ [[File:HollyMonument.jpg|121px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Buddy holly.jpg|234px]] [[File:American apple pie.jpg|234px]]
|}

'''After this edit ONLY the text remained, and ''none'' of the relevant imagery, which I had chosen to honor these artists and to commemorate some of the themes and ideas of their music.''' I myself, if I remember correctly, was in a hurry, and unable to edit it further, and had to leave soon after that.

I am able and willing to work with anyone, but I do anger somewhat at what I perceive to be various forms of injustice and hypocrisy which do arise all to frequently where people are not confronted with each other in face to face dialogue, and many rules can be rather extravagantly grown and even more extravagantly ignored or dismissed while some of the most aggressively denigrative of people are focussing upon and magnifying the relatively minor breaches of rules or merely expectations which others make.

This led to my DISGUST at the foully presumptive forms of impulses towards what I believe to be improper censorship and constraints which were becoming far more evident and boldly practiced on this site, which was founded and had existed for years quite uncontroversially as a wiki with acceptance of MAXIMAL freedoms of editors and MINIMAL rule by any officials, and led to my decision not to even bother adding them for at least a few days or weeks, when I believed I might have more time to address some of the precise quantitative restrictions which were being proposed in regard to various rather nebulous qualitative issues.

Further acts of abusive destruction occurred so regularly in the period after that, It was actually over a year, before I began adding images to the QOTD again partially in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 2013|March 2013]], and fully in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/April 2013|April]], [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/May 2013|May]], and ever since then, and once again, received more compliments than complaints, but those few who seem eager and willing to oppose these layouts have again banded together, while those who are not involved and perhaps do not wish to be involved in such contentious matters have remained unaware or uninvolved, as is their right.

Though I can honestly recognize that the layouts are not always so well developed or well honed as further time might permit, and I myself would have simplified some of them, but certainly not merely to decrease their visual size, had I had more time to consider things.

I also believe that over the years I have certainly received ''FAR more'' compliments both publicly and in private for my graphic presentations than complaints about them, despite the relatively few disparaging remarks a year that have arisen here because of them, and which have often been seized upon by those very little involvement here generally beyond supporting the constraints of others, and who seem most zealous to find ways to rigorously constrain and suppress some forms of presentation options.

I believe that there are now attempts by those who are often involved in little more than devising constraints and rules to bind others in such ways as they themselves would not find binding or uncomfortable at all to group together and impose their will suddenly and vigorously, as has sometimes occurred in the past.

'''This issue as well as others are some I believe should be elaborated upon more extensively in the coming weeks and months, and sufficient time for arguments to be presented and considered, and matters settled with more widespread involvement.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

: Kalki, to me, those pictures of american pies have too bright a color—they really do distract one's attention from the quote. And this is Wiki''quote''. All I can say, regarding this issue, is that ''I'' personally would do the QOTD layout differently, with fewer and smaller pictures, and more emphasis on the quote (incl. source). But Kalki has been the only one doing the QOTDs, for many years, and of course he is doing what looks ''to him'' the best. I don't think it's possible to convince Kalki that he is "wrong". ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I am still around, but quite later than I planned to be at getting started on several things elsewhere, and just briefly noting that I do believe matters can and should be more elaborately discussed, and in my relatively few contentions with people on what the best images available for pages have been, have always been willing to reach acceptable compromises or agreements, where alternatives are presented, but I believe efforts to rigorously constrain or entirely eliminate the use of imagery are very detrimental for many reasons, and I am willing to specify many reasons why later. I ''must'' get going now. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I hardly recognized Don McLean - I think Kalki does brilliant work and the images draw my eye to the word content -clumsily put, I mean draw mw to the whole thing, so the words get read - still I suppose there were iconoclasts who went round smashing in stained glass windows - some people seem puritan by nature and theres probably no pleasing them. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I thank you much for your appreciation. And I would note that I do believe images always serve as windows to a far more expansive range of ideas than text quotes alone usually do, and that is one of many reasons I believe them desirable. And I know that I am not alone in referring to photographs and graphic art works as "visual quotation" though the concept apparently remains unfamiliar to most. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
: There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum. I look forward to the actual exercise of Kalki's professed ability and willingness to work with anyone on this issue, so that a meaningful compromise may be found between [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1405414 no images at all] and [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=1580787 overwhelming that which is ostensibly being presented]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::''[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1678350&oldid=1678327 "There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum."]''. I for one strongly agree with these comments by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
[[File:N3 Etech05 Larry.jpg|thumb|It's a bumper sticker culture. People have to get it like that, and if they don't, if it takes three seconds to make them [[understand]], you're off their radar screen. ~ [[Larry Lessig]] ]]
::: Oh, my sometimes obviously passionate intensity in asserting honest opinions as effectively as I can against what I perceive to be various forms of error, false suppositions, or deliberate deceits can sometimes be very intimidating I suppose, but there obviously is no way that there is any attempt to intimidate in what an official admin might declare in imperious tones of condescension of apparently "Authoritative Objectivity" to anyone who disagrees with their own particular ranges of opinion or will. Seconded by another "admin" who in my honest opinion relies upon various forms of flattery and intimidation to retain what prestige, position and power he has attained. "Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum." That surely is PURELY objective and neutral assertion, simply asserted against the uncivil act of anyone arguing extensively against any one else's position — it seems no one could even conceivably or rationally disagree with that. ''Sarcasm intended here'' — yet I hope some of my silliness in presenting these sincere observations can be forgiven, as I forgive others for sometimes being so damned imperiously somber and officiously censorious about things. '''I generally like people, even many of those who often strongly disagree with me, and I like there being a variety of ideas and attitudes available to people — and as most artists would assert, images provide ways to introduce some of these to people in ways that would otherwise not occur.'''
::: That there actually might be people who find things more interesting with some indications of aspects of the quote they might not have known about or considered through the use of imagery, is something to be dismissed as mere "distraction" and promotion of "distraction", and such arguments merely "digression" from such hard and fast rules as some people wish to establish in a project that was created as one of many with implicit and sometimes EXPLICIT directives to avoid the hang-ups of having too many hard and fast rules — which the wise know can often be abused by people very casually in very many ways, against which most people often have little recourse.
::: '''I quote [[Larry Lessig]] with an image to emphasize that imagery IS useful in drawing people to contemplate the quote associated with the imagery, in ways text alone would NOT.''' As to compromises, I will try to refrain from more than 4 or 5 images, when there is no need for them to frame the text: there are generally 4 regions on the QOTD layout where images can be presented. I usually, but not always, attempt to use all of these to at least some extent, though until recently I usually preferred rather minor images above and below the quote, and I admit that sometimes I clearly have overdone things in ways that are not the best aesthetic arrangements possible. Usually that was because I was trying to present significant ideas which were relevant to the quote being used, or simply significant images of the author of the statement or its subject. I believe 2 good solid blocks of imagery to either side is usually desirable, and can accept that I should not attempt to put too many images in the layout, merely to present ideas present or implied in the quotes; but on larger quotes especially more than one image to either side is sometimes necessary to properly frame the entire text, and on smaller quotes images to the top and bottom allow the text to be framed in such a way as draws one's attention to it further, in ways that would not exist without some imagery. I believe there should always be a minimum of two images, and a maximum of 4 regions of imagery, generally not to exceed 50% of the area of main page, and preferably less than an third of it, even though absolute rules on that would make me uncomfortable. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::(I'm the topic starter; I just registered my account.) What I'm getting from this discussion is that essentially we have no choice but to hope Kalki keeps things under control, then? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 14:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Though we obviously differ strongly in our opinions on this matter, I thank you for creating an account here, and welcome you as a participant. I would certainly phrase things differently, and assert rather bluntly, that in accord with the principles with which Wiki software and Wikimedia projects were founded and developed: '''I seek to keep things from being under too much needless or detrimental "control" by ''anyone'', including myself.''' I have certainly NOT sought to exert any extraordinary ''control'' of things which I am not actively involved in as a regularly concerned ''participant'', here or anywhere, and seek to rigorously control nothing so much as ''my own actions'', rather than that of others. '''Usually I have sought to find ways, through various venues, including this one, to INDICATE diverse views on Truth and Beauty, Meaning and Purpose, and not merely those I myself find most valid or appealing, though, like most people, I generally would favor these.''' I believe that IF things are perceptively reviewed without the prejudices of presuming things have to be under some sort of absolutist controls, by people assuming or wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY, I have persistently sought to keep many things from becoming rigorously controlled by such impulses, all of my life. And '''I did not seek to ''establish'' such principles of behavior here — the wiki software and the wiki projects were ''already'' quite ''explicitly'' established with such aims and procedures in mind''' — I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as I do not believe proper, in either rational or ethical senses. I believe that even if sometimes they are manifest in mild forms, there are many ways the impulses to overly control things have been detrimental in far more ways than are apparent by the casual examinations of those who out of fears, hatreds, resentments or merely minor irritation, are most inclined to find ways to absolutely judge, condemn and punish others are likely to practice, and which require the more extensive examination of those who are more tolerant, patient, and willing to forgive error, without needlessly punishing it, and prone to let many diverse forms of participation in presentations arise. I have just now created a page for '''[[Solomon Asch]]''', to accompany one I have started on '''[[Philip Zimbardo]]''', and one I have helped develop on '''[[Stanley Milgram]]''', each of whom have contributed major insights into social psychology and the various ways group pressures can often corrupt moral assessments and rational competence, and have helped develop general ideas of the cognition necessary for recognizing and combatting '''[[Groupthink]]''' excesses of control over individual volition and choices. I would recommend them to anyone interested in reviewing some of the fundamentals of social psychology. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks

::::::You claim to act against people "wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY" but then later say "I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as *I DO NOT BELIEVE PROPER*" (emphasis mine that time). You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others. Once you start acting upon what you do and do not believe proper, consensus becomes irrelevant. This is no longer a collaborative project, but one that is based on your whims and desires.

::::::I ask everyone: should it be the latter? And if not, what can we do about it? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Again, quite frankly — I quite ''honestly'' state that I, like everyone, act for the most part on my beliefs and impressions, rather than try to pretend to anyone that such a path is simply "horrific" and intolerable — and as I have indicated many times, I try to keep my beliefs reasonable and in maximal harmony with verifiable [[Truths]], the vital virtues of [[Humility]], [[Courage]], [[Honesty]] and [[Compassion]] and principles of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]], and to the extent any "collective" or "individual" opposes these, and insists on absolute conformity in ways that are not innately necessary, I believe that to be an error of the type I have been inclined to label foully fascist, arrogant, tyrannical, and terroristic since I was a very young child. I can forgive people for doing such things, but I do not provide them my willing consent or approval, and if I can find ways of doing so, I seek to find ways to help people rise out of such errors and embrace paths of greater grace, and genuine harmony which only can come about by respect for eternal and enduring truths rather than either collective or individual wills as to how to characterize or serve such truths. I believe you obviously did not look at some of the suggested pages, or if you did, did not understand the statements that indicate where people passionately forbid certain forms of independence because "consensus becomes irrelevant " they are espousing views where '''''truth''''' and genuine rationality and morality quite often become irrelevant, in deference to force of "the collective". That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''." ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:::: In answer to the question above, "What can we do about it?" - It seems clear that nothing can be done about it. The visual appearance of the project is effectively under the control of one editor and there is no prospect that this situation will ever change. It's a remarkable and I think unprecedented situation in the Wiki-related universe. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::::Kalki said: That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''."

::::No, instead Kalki's particular interpretation of "truth" is always right. I have to sadly agree with the above, that as long as Kalki is allowed to define what is right, and is allowed to discount every other opinion because it does not fit "truth," "rationality," or "morality," this project is hopeless. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 21:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing prevents Macspaunday, or you, or anyone else, from working on it, selecting and creating a QOTD every single day, the way you see fit. I don't think Kalki could, or would, revert your efforts. But it would be a lot of work. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: '''Actually, it is not entirely true that they are free to do whatever they see fit; I myself am not entirely free to do entirely as I see fit, in all regards, and do not wish to be.''' While still an admin and a long admired one, I constrained myself and the selection processes to its current procedures, gradually over time, to allow maximum input in selections of QOTD from all who wished to be involved, and though there are currently very few who regularly participate now, Zarbon, for one, was once a frequent opponent in debates over which quotes should be selected, and he was actually quite effective in getting his way much of the time, but not so much of it as he might have wished.
:::::: In regard to larger issues: '''I quite often keep MANY of my opinions and many aspects of my knowledge reserved from overt presentation, yet sometimes I choose not to remain quiet about long constrained perspectives that indicate what I perceive of some of the deficiencies and flaws in the arguments and strategies of others. '''I might often out of convenience or necessity refrain from revealing some truths, but I certainly do not go about attempting to obscure truths on vitally important matters and principles, nor silence others from indicating their opinions of them, and when people do resort to attempting to do so in various ways, out of various irritations with the views of others, and my own or others arguments or tenacity in not bowing abjectly to theirs, '''I do not always "politely" defer to simply accepting their particular opinions or rather crude attempts to distort or defame mine or those of others, such as have most actively created and built these projects, rather than simply control what others can do.''' I know some people wish to try to make that seem "unconscionably" rude, but so be it. I state my case as ably as I believe proper and necessary, and let others state theirs. I have been doing the very extensive and occasionally contentious work for years, amidst some frustratations, but with general approval, and a few others seek to occasionally frustrate and absolutely constrain my assessments of what presentations would be optimal to what theirs would be, simply because thus far, a very few people band together, with assumptions they speak for a majority of others, to say they don't understand, don't accept and don't desire my contributions. '''Even though, throughout the years, I have had ''FAR more'' people I find far more generally respectable, say that they value them, I realize that such groups joined in their avid hostilities can indeed be a threat to many generally desirable liberties and freedoms — and such people often do get quite irate and intolerant of others rights when they are not abjectly obeyed.''' I am a person who has had my life genuinely threatened in literal ways, and not been cowed by such arrogance, nor deterred in seeking to protect the rights of myself and others; I am not prone to submit without need to those who seem adamant in their desires that excessive forms of constraint and command over the rights and liberties of others be accepted and deferred to, apparently without question nor even vigorous counter-arguments. — that's about all I can say right now, as I have to attend to some matters because I must be leaving soon, at least briefly. ''[[Blessings]] to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Can we step back from discussion of process, philosophy, and personality for a moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which was '''Main Page Images''' and, specifically, the quantity thereof? In particular, I would like to explore two specific points in the last paragraph of Kalki's post on 5 February 2014 at 18:53, beginning at the phrase "As to compromises", regarding ''necessity'' and ''proportion'' these images.
::# I don't think it has been demonstrated that it is ''necessary to frame the entire text'' of the QotD with images. When I first joined Wikiquote some years back the quote of the day was accompanied by one small image on the main page. It was framed by a colored box with a header and footer. I do not recall any great hue and cry, or any comment at all, about the lack of a ''necessary frame of images'' boxing the quote. If one were designing the main page from scratch, one might begin by listing possible features and classifying them as either vitally necessary, highly desirable, or wish-list items. I think including a quote of the day would rank quite high and adding an image would be very desirable but, in my opinion, including a montage of images would have little or no priority for the main landing page of a site devoted to quotations. I would certainly recommend against using a "frame" that dominates the entire page, which brings up the second point...
::# Devoting ''up to 50% of the page'' to this material is, in my opinion, completely out of proportion to other priorities for space on the project's main public portal. As remarked in an earlier discussion, it pushes everything else but the masthead below the fold. Even a third of the page strikes me as a disproportionate allocation among main elements of the page:
::::* Masthead
::::* Quote of the day
::::* Selected pages
::::* New pages
::::* Main categories
::::* Community
::::* Sister projects
::::* Other languages
:::: I suggest we consider illustrating the presentation of the quote of the day in proportion to that which is ostensibly being presented:  I think allocating ''one third of the QotD block'' to illustration would be a more appropriate upper limit than a third or a half of the entire page.
::: I welcome the thoughts and opinions of other contributors about what is necessary and what is proportionate for Wikiquote's main landing page. (I don't think discussion of process, philosophy, and personality is going to shed much light on those issues.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I know that very few things are "necessary" to accept as "necessary" in any absolute sense, but do believe that framing the text with image fields is quite aesthetically appealing to ''most'' people, and ''thus'' highly desirable for presentations. '''The ''only'' things which regularly change on the main page here are the QOTD and the New page listings which are directly below it, and so I do not think that it remaining a prominent portion of the page, actually less than 25% of the page in most cases, I believe, is at all undesirable for a primary presentation page.''' The other sections are certainly not all that less convenient to access, to anyone but those with very slow connections. Though I am doing some things out of consideration for those in such circumstances, such as stripping out most px specs and reducing the use of animations on pages, I have stated before I don't believe that those who still have such should be a primary constraint on the development of any of our wiki pages. I do believe that if their problems are extreme enough, they should simply shut off image displays on their primary browser, or use an alternate browser where such settings are used. I believe that reducing the size of the images, relative to the size of the quote, or to one third of the QOTD is a rather crude and extreme measure to simply minimize the size of images, the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds, which are increasingly uncommon among most users, and generally not accommodated as a primary concern at most sites on the internet, ''including'' Wikimedia ones. '''As I have previously stated, it is quite standard to get pages with well over a hundred images at the much more commonly visited Wikimedia commons.''' As usual, I am quite willing to honor general provisions which can be arrived at, but do not generally support creating overly detailed nor overly absolute constraints on any matters, in accord with the principles of innovation and adaptation with which the Wikis were founded. I believe a general agreement to keep the images proportional to the page, and usually less than 30% is a reasonable one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::: It's not about page loading time, it's about screen real estate on the main page. It is not a case of "the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds". The reasons given are pushing everything else below the fold, and proportion to relevance for the purpose of a home page. I think you are mistaken in considering the main page "a primary presentation page":  The home page is primarily a ''portal to the project''. Compare the ''[[commons:|home page]]'' of the Wikimedia Commons project to which you refer:  it has ''two'' pictures (one static and one media file), each of which is the focus of a dedicated section. (It also uses a few iconographic links, as does ours.) Of course a project that is primarily a repository of images and media files has many pages with many more images, but not on its main portal page – this example does not support your argument. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: We are all involved to varying degrees in various forms of presentations. I believe the people who normally are involved with the main page layout for the commons do a fine job, and generally understand that graphic layouts are important to sparking and developing interests in a broad variety of subjects, people and ideas — as are quotes. I believe that it is widely recognized that quotes used in conjunction with images and visual images in conjunction with text quotes can often do a far better job of generating interest, curiosity, contemplation and exploration than either generally would alone, and that highly formalized constraints on presentations simply limit the varieties of options available in composing such presentations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia's policy on having multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:I briefly posted this on the Administrator's Noticeboard, but realized it should be on this page instead. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I would like to note that the above link states specifically that "Kalki is limited to one account" and that this was an unprecedented restriction here, in reaction to controversies that arose because I had created multiple accounts, and was unapologetic for doing so, and at that time unwilling to state some of the reasons for them, or take issue with the matter, and that I had in fact already agreed to limit myself to editing from one account, and had not and have not in any way attempted to evade that restriction, nor to misuse any of my accounts either before that time or since. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
* '''Oppose (very conditionally)''' : I am quite willing to ''develop'' and largely adopt such rules, within the next month or so, but would much prefer to make some important distinctions which are not evident in this document as it exists in its current state, despite having been gradually evolving or decaying in various stages, for many years, on a far more populated site, since its inception in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry&oldid=2446707 14 February 2004]‎, where it provided little more than a definition and the statement:
:: ''Some folks believe sock puppets suck. Others believe that they are useful, when used for good.''
: I believe there are issues to be raised more explicitly now. There are ALSO significant FACTS related to my own past use of multiple accounts and the reactions of others to them that I wish to be honestly and fairly addressed, and measures taken to rectify the current situation where I believe quite improperly and unjustly, the accounts I was gradually identifying as my own were suddenly defaced with VERY misleading statements which imply that these were merely Sockpuppets and that I had clearly been guilty of improper behavior with them, which I have always asserted was NEVER the case, and certainly never my intentions.
: Though I actually seem to be entering another week or so where I am likely to be more busy than I had thought elsewhere, within the next week or two I would actually like to ''begin'' to present upon my own user pages an accounting of ''some'' of the more significant reasons I created such accounts in the first place — and why I generally object to the pre-emptive suppression of such anonymity as they can afford, and why I object slightly to some of the wording in the current Wikipedia document, though not its general intent. I expect to be very busy on this matter and others in coming week or two, but to all, I send ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: This proposition is not ''ex post facto''; it has nothing to do with your previous accounts, other than your own assertion that Wikiquote has had no policy barring the use of multiple accounts. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: One of the things I would like to address is that the defacement of my multiple account pages as "Sock puppets" was undertaken not merely ''ex post facto'' but without clear community consensus to label them such, largely by one very hostile and very presumptive admin, who on the same page he links to only a portion of, was being declared by others to have acted improperly and in such ways as were clearly against policies. If we are going to adopt a policy regarding multiple accounts, I would like the long-standing injustice of that addressed as well, so that these accounts can be labelled in less presumptive and what I believe to be quite dishonest ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Our adoption of a forward-looking policy should not be contingent on addressing past events not occurring under that policy. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I certainly agree with that, but while discussions are occurring on such matters, I believe it would be proper to take assessments of past incidents, and such facts and opinions as I intend to present, in settling upon any new policies, and the adoption should not be rushed, merely for the convenience of some who might wish to rush such matters, and forego discussions or debates in such ways as I believe would be detrimental in many ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Adopting Wikipedia's policy as it stands could be problematic because it makes reference to entities and procedures for which Wikiquote does not have any local counterpart, e.g. Arbitration Committee and checkuser. Our [[Wikiquote:Username policy#Using multiple user accounts|current policy]] simply says ''"It is recommended that users not edit under multiple usernames, unless they have a very good reason."'' Something more definitive than this would be a good idea, and the Wikipedia policy could be a good starting point. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
*: I have imported the Wikipedia page to [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] and tagged it as an essay for now. We can whittle it down and otherwise adjust it to our local needs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Thanks for that — as I indicated, I am willing to support a slightly revised version of this eventually — but I would expect it to take at least a couple of weeks to establish a viable agreement. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: Of that, I have no doubt. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== WelcomeBot ==

This bot has been beating me with a stick as soon as I looked over this bot's contribution list. WelcomeBot's last edit [[Special:Contributions/WelcomeBot|was in 2008.]] Now, it has been six years (correct me if I am wrong) since this bot has contributed. On other wikis, the bureaucrats would revoke the bot's right due to inactivity. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AWelcomeBot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 See User Rights Log]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Voltairinedecleyre.png]] ==

Since [[:File:VoltairinedeCleyre.jpg]] exists - and is a completely different image - I renamed this. I've also done a restoration. However, a number of the usages here are on protected pages, so can someone replace the usage at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/November 17]] with either:
[[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35) - Original.png]] (unrestored version) or [[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35).jpg]] (restored version)? [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
: The page probably should not have been protected. This is [[w:WP:CASCADE|cascading protection]] from the page [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Display]], which was created in an abortive attempt to [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote_talk:Quote_of_the_day&oldid=1200367 reorganize QotD pages]. As the reorganization appears to have been abandoned and its index does not appear to be used anywhere, I wonder if the page creator, [[User:Cirt|Cirt]], would be amenable to deleting it and the associated [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Links]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I never understood precisely what Cirt was trying to do with these back then, in 2009, but they were entirely his effort, without much regard or consideration of the long standing and enduring QOTD selection, processing and archiving procedures, and all those index pages currently in a format that improperly generalizes them with titles such as "[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1]]" were moved into these titles then, and I believe simply should be moved back to the standard [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1, 2009]] title format for them. I don't understand exactly what is causing the protection problems at this point, having ignored the issue for some time, as one of relatively little significance, but agree the protections should be removed, and the pages restored to their original more standard titles. I just happen to be checking in now, don't have much time, and must be leaving again soon. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Reply:''' I've unprotected both those pages. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== Fair use audio/video clips ==

Hello,

Forgive my naive curiosity, but I wonder why Wikiquote pages never propose audio or video clips for famous quotes in movies, songs or speeches for instance. Since audio clips can be used as "fair use" on Wikipedia (see for instance on [[w:We Are the World #Music and vocal arrangements|"We Are the World"]]), is there anything that prevents Wikiquote contributors to put, say, short audio clips of [[Martin Luther King, Jr. #I Have A Dream (1963)|"I Have A Dream"]]'s finest quotes? or even a video clip of [[Gone with the Wind (film)|''Gone with the Wind'']]'s "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."?

Wouldn't that be "fair use"? wouldn't that be any useful to Wikiquote pages? I mean, lots of quotes from speeches or movies would benefit a lot from a presentation with their voice intonation, or visual context, no?

Thanks for any views on the subject! - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Such media clips can be linked to within pages, if they are available at the commons under an acceptable license, but, of course, simply "fair use" materials are not. Years ago, to avoid duplications, excess, and complicated burdens on a limited staff of regular admins, it was decided at the English Wikiquote to use only media available at the commons. Though it might sometimes be frustrating, I still believe that is probably a good thing, over all, as there are often contentions on even using images available at the commons, as some of the above sections can indicate. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:
::OK, so the English Wikiquote is not opposed to fair use in itself (since, as I understood it on [[Wikiquote:Copyrights]], it is under that very fair use that quotations are put here), but chose to avoid the complexity to manage fair use media files. That answers my primary question, thanks!
::Now, theoretically speaking, would it be feasible? Would it be legal to use excerpts of copyrighted audio or video content, just to display them as quotations from a published work? And if yes, would it be any different if Wikiquote was a for-profit project?
::I'm trying to get a better view of how media excerpts can legally be viewed as "quotations"... (for instance, is there a difference between selling a dictionary of (text) quotations, which seems feasible, and selling a compendium of media quotations?)
::[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 19:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am not familiar with all the technical details of how and why fair use has been defined or limited in various ways, in various contexts, and I am sure that this is a very complex legal matter, to which I make no pretense of having definite or authoritative answers. Good luck in seeking help on this one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::No one here is giving legal advice. I actually think we ''could'' use audio/video clips that are in the public domain, but as to copyrighted material, "fair use" for educational purposes is usually something like (no more than) 5 seconds of a five minute video. (On some pages there are links to Youtube clips, that's much safer, and may work as a solution – though even there caution is required, linking to "illegal" material is of course not permissible.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::I wasn't trying to get legal advice (or any authoritative answer at all), I know [[w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer]] and the like quite well, sorry if that's the impression I gave you. I was simply curious about understanding how this (using media clips under "fair use") applies to Wikiquote, or in general, and I thought that maybe there were contributors here who would have previously dealt with the issue. And that curiosity was only triggered by the fact that, as a reader of Wikiquote, I thought audio/video clips on the pages would have been great, and then I wondered, "wait, maybe it's not possible?". [[File:Face-smile.svg|18px]]
:::::Thank you anyway for your answers. - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 18:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Six pictures for Quote of the day ?!? ==

Does the ''Quote of the day'' really need to have six (6) pictures in it?!?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:It is of course quite possible to indicate ''much'' of how snide and hypocritical a person can be in only 15 words or even fewer, but complexity and intricate sincerity of thought often demands much more than that, and in defense of liberties and generally healthy good humor, I am usually quite prone to provide what I can, when I can, in the hopes that some who are plainly ignorant, confused and intolerant towards the actual or potential capacities of others might eventually become knowledgeable and wise enough to develop a genuine and profound love for the principles of Liberty, rather than merely the sounding of such words as can indicate it among those who are not prone to be insincere and hypocritical. I also hope that those who are often intimidated or merely irritated by the intolerant can learn to laugh at them, even if it must be sardonic laughter, rather than being angry at them, and sometimes thus even slipping into their ranks, and becoming unjustly intolerant of those so ignorant and confused as to be unjustly intolerant, rather than simply and properly and justly intolerant of unjust intolerance itself.

:'''Actually the quote of the day for today has 611 pictures known as "letters" and "punctuation marks" within it. These are arranged in sequences representing 120 vocalizations commonly known as "words" which form phrases and statements of thought.''' Unfortunately many of these are often used by some people with very little actually [[sincerity]], or any profound understanding of principles or concepts, such as those who might regularly use words of praise for [[Freedom of speech]], while often doing so much as they can to effectively constrain and control such speech or indications of ideas as others can make, in extremely intolerant [[absolutist]] ways, which are often dependent upon mechanistic, [[wikt:legalistic|legalistic]] formulas which are often touted as "sensible" or even "necessary" by the unimaginative, to the unimaginative, for the unimaginative. It is often a very easy thing to get the unimaginative to agree that the imaginative should be constrained and controlled by those most eager to constrain and control them. Some might go so far as to stress that MANY of these symbols are actually "redundant" and repetitive — there are only 26 letters, and once of each of these should be enough to indicate all that these images should be construed to indicate — and combing them in various ways lead to such "distractions" as people call "ideas", which are nearly always a threat to powers and prestige of the most vacuous.

:Using my own admittedly limited imaginative capacities to discern that you were probably attempting to criticize the fact that 6 complex images generally referred to as pictures frame the 611-symbol quote of the day, I will address the rhetorical inquiry regarding their necessity. '''Of course, thought itself is perhaps not actually "necessary" thing among many human beings, as many people often make abundantly clear by their regular impulses towards impositions of relatively thoughtless constraints and condemnation of others abilities to indicate or express many forms of thought and thoughtfulness.

:In this particular case, six images were selected to indicate some aspects of the ideas indicated through the QOTD words, or provide images of the person who is being quoted. It certainly could have used more to illustrate its expansive call to praise of humanistic appreciation of life and all that human beings can experience or observe, and a rejection of those primarily dark, ignorant and confused impulses towards denigrative and destructive and even suicidal or murderous attitudes and actions which many of the most ignorant and confused of people often favor or promote.

{|
|&emsp;||
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:Sunrise in Midtown, New York City - January 16, 2013.jpg|222px]] [[File:Zegar słoneczny plac defilad wskazanie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | {{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Arco iris circular.JPG|144px]] Do you have [[doubts]] about [[life]]? Are you unsure if it is really [[worth]] the [[trouble]]? Look at the [[sky]]: that is for you. Look at each [[person]]'s [[face]] as you pass them on the street: those faces are for you. And the street itself, and the ground under the street, and the ball of [[fire]] underneath the ground: [[all]] these things are for you. They are as much for you as they are for other [[people]]. [[Remember]] this when you wake up in the [[morning]] and think you have [[nothing]]. Stand up and face the east. Now [[praise]] the sky and praise the [[light]] within each person under the sky. It's okay to be unsure. But praise, praise, praise.
| author = Miranda July
}} [[File:Double-alaskan-rainbow.jpg|144px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Salutations to the Ganges at sunrise, Varanasi.jpg|201px]] [[File:Miju.jpg|201px]]
|}
|}
:With an emphasis on the worthiness of [[Life]] itself, especially to the extent it promotes [[Liberty]] and [[Justice]] in all vitally important human endeavors, and to further testify of the usefulness of thought, imagination, and images in the use of words and quotes, I will quote a few more extremely worthy statements of worthy principles by worthy minds.

:To quote the current Wikipedia and Wikiquote introduction: [[Censorship]] is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

:Wikis were admirably devised to MINIMIZE the presence of the overly constrained and controlling impulses of groups and individuals most prone to rely upon static and dull understandings and misunderstandings of rules and regulations, and to permit those with most extensive and expansive ideas to have much more opportunity for indicating them and developing them without needless hindrance. Wikis of many types persist in doing so, despite many forms of constraining and corruptive influences, and I trust that they will continue to do so, despite occasional afflictions of short-sightedness, and tendencies towards pre-emptive censorship or limitations on the presentations of ideas.

:* '''The first condition of [[progress]] is the removal of censorship.'''
:** [[George Bernard Shaw]], in his Preface to [[w:Mrs. Warren's Profession|Mrs. Warren's Profession]]''

:* '''Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself.''' It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote our First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from the interference of a policeman's intrusive thumb or a judge's heavy hand.
:** [[Potter Stewart]], in his dissenting opinion in ''Ginzburg et al v. United States'' (1965)

:* Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.
:** [[Ray Bradbury]], in ''Fahrenheit 451'', Coda (1979 edition)

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG|144px]] Our [[liberty]] depends on the [[freedom of the press]], and that cannot be limited without being lost.
| author = Thomas Jefferson
}}
|}

:As I know that not all are inclined to persist in their inclinations to defend liberties where it is obvious there are some groups of people prone to cohere in their opposition to them, those few who do cohere for liberty can sometimes render humanity a valuable service, and I hope that in the times to come, what efforts I have made to help people become more aware and appreciative of the principles of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Joyous Universal Love of ALL will be of great benefit to many, even if many of the ways I have done so remain obscured and unnoticed by most. '''''[[Blessings]]''' to all.'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 06:55, 15 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:I know some indications of the complexities of my own particular thoughts and ideas, and those of others, in promotion of liberty and praise for it and for the presentations of ideas in general can seem "verbose" — but that is one of the burdens of having a relatively complex mind and the will to keep it complexly alert and active. Something which many of the wise throughout the ages have advised, in various ways. I add this little note to provide just a few more refinements of thought and a further quote that addresses one of the tragedies of current times:

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = In a three-minute stretch between [[commercials]], or in seven hundred [[words]], it is [[impossible]] to present unfamiliar [[thoughts]] or surprising conclusions with the [[argument]] and [[evidence]] required to afford them [[credibility]]. Regurgitation of welcome [[pieties]] faces no such [[problem]].
| author = Noam Chomsky
}}
|}

:''So it goes…'' and so much as they ever can … may ''Blessings'' abound. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 07:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:: I like this QOTD layout. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Which? There are two examples of illustrated quotations above (Miranda July and Thomas Jefferson). I prefer the second layout for use on the main page because it doesn't make the QotD box 7–8 times larger (depending on window size) than the QotD itself and push everything else "[[w:below the fold|below the fold]]". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to the QOTD (Miranda July), not the Jefferson quote. [I don't think Kalki posted the latter with the intent of it being a QOTD layout proposal.] There have certainly been some QOTDs that I found too extravagant, or with too many mystical (large) pictures, but in this QOTD the pictures seem comparatively well chosen and pleasant. However, more generally, I agree that the QOTD should preferably have fewer & smaller pictures (otherwise, it gives readers the wrong impression, this wiki is not really about the pictures), and occupy less space, so that for example the suggested articles in the main page could gain more immediate visibility. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

: It does not. But the person who runs this site thinks otherwise, and also equates "criticism of layout decisions" with "censorship." There is nothing anyone can do about it, except avoid the main page entirely. That's easy enough to do with Google, and I would recommend it as a way around the egregious front page. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:: "It does not" seems a rather incoherent statement, along with others less obviously so. ''' No one "runs" this site, and despite the regular efforts of a few people to absolutely constrain and control what ''others'' can do, in ways that defy and betray the very principles of promoting extremely diverse and minimally regulated contributions with which most wikis were founded, it remains, on the whole, only incidentally and probably not permanently corrupted by such efforts.''' And despite the often infantile reactions of people in responding to criticism, I certainly do NOT stupidly assert that criticism of layout decisions amounts to "censorship" — I assert that calls for extreme constraint or ELIMINATION of layout decisions by those most involved in the actual work and consideration of options, by a few people who seem most interested in constraining or eliminating MANY options IS censorship. Such constraints as would ''de facto'' constrain others to the sensibilities or desires of a relatively small group of people who seem very inclined to be critical and intolerant of others ideas, and often quite extremely intolerant and punitive towards criticisms of themselves and their ideas. And indeed if such people find the layouts which others have acclaimed so intolerable, they are more than welcome to do as they will and avoid looking at them at all, and avoid considering any ideas or presentations save those they find most comfortable and consoling to their ''precious'' little minds and forms of mindfulness. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I realized afterwards that your lead statement "It does not" probably refers to the leading question presented by the creator of this section, which pretty much ignores all the extensive material added afterward. If one can overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent, and mattered not at all, congratulations of a sort: I have little doubt that you will be able to succeed in keeping your mind "pure and undefiled" by any "alien" ideas such as I or others might introduce. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
::::(I wonder whether you'll be able to post such pictures again in discussions once [[mw:Flow|Flow]] is enacted.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Kalki, it is possible to read what you write and still disagree with you. I did not ignore "all the extensive material added afterward," nor did I "overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent." I read it, which should have been obvious by the fact that I referenced it. I just disagree with you. The QotD does not need 6 images. Your arguments are not persuasive - particularly the one comparing letters to pictures. The fact that you believe your making an argument means that argument is correct is one of the problems here. I am not promoting censorship of ideas. I don't believe the unimaginative are trying to constrain or control anyone. I believe 6 images makes the QotD section too busy, and distracts from the purpose of this site, which is to provide quotes. That's my opinion. But I'm aware that no amount of argument against what you want will change your actions, or your opinion of those who disagree with you as closed-minded troglodytes. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 15:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it might be simplest to get rid of the quotation altogether, and simply post "Mystical pictures of the day"? At present, the quotation tends to get lost amidst all the galactic objects, lights in the forest, rainbows, shadows extending into the distance, hands reaching for the sky, etc., etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 17:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I fear Kalki's method might actually have the opposite effect of what he is trying to accomplish. In the first place, I am not sure whether these large pictures do a good job in attracting more people's attention to the quote, or if on the contrary people get bored with always seeing the same pattern and flashy colors—which could lead them to not read the quotes of the day, and start avoiding the main page. Now, to be fair, Kalki often tries to choose appropriate, and different, pictures for QOTD. But Macspaunday's parody of Kalki's preference for mystical imagery might actually point to a poverty of thought that is much contrary to Kalki's sincere intention of introducing people to new thoughts and ideas. At least speaking for myself, when I read a quote for the first time, I prefer to be free to imagine (and produce my own imagery of) what the quote represents, to me, on my own. Kalki might wish to present his interpretation of the quote to others, but this (unintentionally?) interferes and breaks ''in advance'' my own interpretation. It's like being forced to watch a movie adaptation (good or bad) before reading a book. I don't know how that's compatibly with the principles of Freedom Kalki defends. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On the subject of what attracts people. Taking a quick look at our "rival" sites, apparently ''[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes goodreads]'' doesn't have nor use subjective pictures at all, and they seem to attract more people than Wikiquote (the same is true for ''brainyquote'', which in fact doesn't present any pictures). Of course these sites are not good in many aspects (e.g., sourcing of quotes), but perhaps ''goodreads''' policy to only present a small picture of the author next to the quote is something we could adopt. I'm almost sure that if they started adding large colorful shining pictures next to quotes, their viewership would decline. Perhaps giving a more professional look to our main page would help attract (and keep) more visitors. I recently made two simple suggestions for the QOTD, [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/January 28, 2014|here]] and [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 20, 2014|here]], don't know if they would be better. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. Obviously the QOTD alone is not even remotely responsible for overall less viewership, Wikiquote has many other—much more serious—problems, in content, navigation, etc. (and I repeat that I think Kalki has done more for the betterment of WQ than any other editor, my comments here are not meant to blame him, just offer constructive criticism. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Indeed. I appreciate Kalki's desire to make an artistic presentation, but would advise him to consider the artistry of [[w:Minimalism|Minimalism]]. Hmmm, now I see that we have no page on [[Minimalism]]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: (We do now.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: DanielTom has offered some excellent and indisputable wisdom here. He's absolutely right that Goodreads et al. go wrong in ways that WQ goes right: WQ has sourced quotations, warnings about false and doubtful attributions, etc. - and WQ gets hundreds of things right that Goodreads et al. conspicuously get wrong. But Goodreads et al. ''look'' vastly more authoritative than WQ because they don't illustrate hundreds of different quotations with Hoag's Object, heart-shaped stones held in the hand, etc., etc. They ''look'' authoritative in ways that WQ, sadly, does not. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:08, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Why do those websites attract more traffic than WQ? This is a topic that needs research, but I believe the main reason is that they present the best quotes right at the top of their pages. ''goodreads'', for example, has a voting system whereby the most liked quotes appear at the top. This is much different from WQ, where the readers often have to read through a sea of quotes just to find an occasional gem. (And this is particularly true in long theme pages, such as "[[Love]]".) The only way we can solve this in our current system is, believe it or not, through the use of pictures, to highlight the best quotes. (I suspect many of our readers only read through long pages by simply looking at picture captions.) So, at least to my mind, pictures can actually be the solution, not the problem. However, to be sure, I also share concerns about pictures in excess, irrelevant to the text, or too subjective that they apply and appear everywhere. In addition, although I might for example worship every single word Shakespeare wrote, placing a picture for every one of his quotes would not attract more people's attention to them, it might very well just do the opposite. This seems to be what is happening in articles that are flooded with walls of pictures. So pictures can become the problem when they are too many, and so go ''counter'' to their function of ''highlighting key quotes''. I think this is something everyone can recognize. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Leaving aside the consideration of typographic glyphs as images, leaving aside the question of whether Kalki speaks for the "[[w:silent majority|silent majority]]" (or is, in some sense, a multitude incarnate), leaving aside the small mindedness of mere mortals overwhelmed by the grandeur of Kalki's idealism; Kalki actually does offer a reason to support using a multiplicity of images. To wit:  ''to have much more opportunity for indicating extensive and expansive ideas''. Chomsky's quoted remark about the limitations of short-form exposition is certainly correct: some ideas require a longer form for their successful exposition. Toward that end, using the very rough approximation that a picture is worth a thousand words, one might seek an opportunity to indicate extensive and expansive ideas with an essay of six thousand words. However, bearing in mind that ''the art of quotation is generally characterized by [[brevity]]'', it would be incongruous to seek such opportunities in the pages of Wikiquote. Kalki's defense of the photomontage as a form of expression begs the question of whether the exposition of extensive and expansive ideas belongs on the main page. I think that it does not. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: Another way of thinking about Ningauble's point is this: Imagine that the quotation of the day is typically surrounded by six quotations from the Bible or Shakespeare - and that many of them had also been used to surround completely different quotations on previous days. That would certainly be a long-form exposition, but would it be appropriate to the front page, and would it show respect to the authors of the quotations? I'd imagine that many of the authors would think they were being less than respectfully represented by a page that surrounds a sentence or two that they wrote with thousands of words from the Bible or Shakespeare. I'd imagine they would think the same way about seeing their quotations surrounded by pictures of clouds, rainbows, galactic spirals, prisms, sculpted hearts, nineteenth-century genre paintings, etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Amidst many activities with concerns elsewhere, I have now examined the above comments, and will probably do so again, before posting some responses to some recent statements and actions. I am considering many options of what sorts of rebuttals to make, as I again leave for elsewhere, for there are plainly many complexities to consider in the assertions and attitudes of those who seek to impose what they perceive as admirable "simplicity" on the options of ''others'' in quite complicated ways, for quite complicated and varied reasons. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why bother? From your attitude in that very comment we can be pretty confident what your response will be. We cannot discuss what the community deems appropriate on this site as long as it might have some impact on you having your way. It's not very complicated at all. You will do what you want, and any discussion to the contrary is us (no matter how great a majority we are) trying to "impose" something on you. The discussion will go nowhere as long as you continue to ignore that somebody's opinions aside from yours might have merit. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am always willing to acknowledge merit, where it can be found, and to actually bother about a lot of things others do not, where vitally important forms of truth are at stake; and you are actually right to some very limited extent, though demonstrably wrong in others, for you can rely upon my responses being quite contrary to those which promote various forms of suppression of various forms of intelligent exposition by various forms of arrogant misuse of force.
::: '''[[Ironies]] and profound forms of [[stupidity]] about them certainly abound in this world, in ways I will actually decline to always specify, out of consideration of the plainly delicate and fragile sensibilities of some, and the need to discreetly retain some forms of [[knowledge]] to be revealed in more effective ways than those of presently declaring them openly to some of the most plainly ignorant, intolerant and insensitive people presently active here.''' I will actually specify that many of the most belligerently intolerant and oppressive of people are often desperate to find ways to convince others of the certainty of their numerical or absolute moral superiority, and genuinely believe such things themselves. '''I am certainly NOT quite so full of shallow and stupid certitude about many things as you certainly are trying to make me seem, in ways I will concede I perceive to be quite shallow and obvious.'''
::: I must say that for someone who had as yet only started a topic of derision of my work, and had made only 3 edits, all specifically in derision of me, who has contributed over 100,000, armed with all the authority of "collective identity" with a few others of the most intolerant here which those 3 edits provided you, declared in rather comically imperious tones of ''command'' as a member of "the collective", of those most avid to control OTHERS: "You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others."
::: I am not actually intimidated very much at all by such remarkably clear examples of the presumptive arrogance of the most intolerant and eagerly oppressive of people; '''I actually expect many of them to eventually provide prominent and long remembered examples to many students and researches of psychological and sociological processes, of significant aberrations in the social processes, towards subtle and overt forms of anti-social oppression and suppression of dissent.'''
::: Actually from the moment I first read those words, I honestly perceived you might be engaged in one of the most remarkably arrogant, petty and presumptuous forms of pretension and deceitfulness or delusions which I had yet encountered on this wiki, and I actually strongly suspect that you could very likely be one of the sporadic trolls who primarily aim to disrupt the normal processes of wikis and their development. '''Of course I am quite willing to concede that I could be entirely wrong''', and you are not actually such a paltry twerp, and even without much actual evidence in support of such an assessment, could conceivably even be a generally mild and benevolent researcher in various social sciences, including those of how people respond in positive and negative ways to various forms of generally positive and intelligent presentations of various ideas or indications of the beauty of the world, and in this case you are assuming the guise of an intolerant belligerent twerp or troll to provide an example for all eternity of how easily swayed to paths of oppressive stupidity some people can be, much like those in the psychology experiments of [[Solomon Asch]], [[Stanley Milgram]], and [[Philip Zimbardo]]. '''IF that were the actually the case here I would actually have to assert that I consider it an extremely unethical and misguided practice and strongly disagree with the adoption of such vile guises by anyone, even in pretenses, for ostensibly worthy psychological research and investigations, and forms of direct action in social involvement.'''
::: Though not quite as pessimistic as he sometimes was, I have long agreed to a great extent with many of the observations of the intelligent [[Heroically]] [[Angelic]] [[Humanist]] [[Absurdist]], [[Kurt Vonnegut]] including that in ''Mother Night'': '''We are what we [[pretend]] to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'''
::: As I have remained busier than I had anticipated I would be in various complex concerns, and it actually looks like I will continue to be for a while yet, I am willing to patiently consider many options and aspects of many situations, before I respond more vigorously here, to what I believe to be many rather ironically stupid developments in the audacity of those who would suppress and censor the indication of thoughts and ideas.
::: As I have to get busy doing other things now, I will simply close with a profound quote by one of many profound philosophers who I have long admired:
{{quote of the day
| quote = ''Every [[morning]] I shall concern myself anew about the boundary Between the [[love]]-[[deed]]-'''Yes''' and the [[power]]-deed-'''No''' And pressing forward [[honor]] [[reality]]. We cannot avoid Using power, Cannot escape the compulsion To afflict the [[world]], '''So let us, cautious in diction And mighty in contradiction, Love powerfully.'''''
| author = Martin Buber
}}
::: ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::::Name-calling and cries of censorship, while hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority. Who could have seen that coming?
::::I'll admit that my attempt to improve the wiki in this particular way has been lost, although I'd encourage others to continue the battle. And especially, if you are reading this and agree, I would encourage you to register and to speak up. Even if your contribution will be dismissed (publicly, anyway - privately I have received kudos), if you desire the improvement of this project you should contribute in any way you see necessary, including this one. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 22:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: You are plainly mistaken if you think I am "hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority." I am a rather [[anarchistic]] [[Absurdist]] and though I might accept that in some ways there could be such absolutes, I reject notions that any mortal mind has the capacity or comprehension to absolutely determine or formulate such with absolutely reliable accuracy. To each their own pieces of the puzzles... ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== Universal Language Selector will be enabled by default again on this wiki by 21 February 2014 ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
On January 21 2014 the MediaWiki extension [[mw:Universal Language Selector|Universal Language Selector]] (ULS) was [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Jan2014|disabled]] on this wiki. A new preference was added for logged-in users to turn on ULS. This was done to prevent slow loading of pages due to ULS webfonts, a behaviour that had been observed by the Wikimedia Technical Operations team on some wikis.

We are now ready to enable ULS again. The temporary preference to enable ULS will be removed. A [[commons:File:ULS-font-checkbox.png|new checkbox]] has been added to the Language Panel to enable/disable font delivery. This will be unchecked by default for this wiki, but can be selected at any time by the users to enable webfonts. This is an interim solution while we improve the feature of webfonts delivery.

You can read the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Feb2014|announcement]] and the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Upcoming Development Plan|development plan]] for more information. Apologies for writing this message only in English. Thank you. [[m:User_talk:Runab WMF|Runa]]

</div>


: No apology is needed. Visitors here are not required to master the subtle art of translating from English to Quotish. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Heh. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Amendment to the Terms of Use ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Hello all,

Please join a discussion about a [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|proposed amendment]] to the [[wmf:Terms of Use|Wikimedia Terms of Use]] regarding undisclosed paid editing and we encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please translate this statement if you can, and we welcome you to translate the proposed amendment and introduction. Please see [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|the discussion on Meta Wiki]] for more information. Thank you! [[:m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 22:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Einstein was a Humanist? ==

I've tried to edit this but another editor has reverted it, so I'd appreciate some more opinions. IMHO it's thoroughly misleading to describe Einstein as a Humanist: a) he never self-identified as a Humanist; b) in Einstein's day the Humanist movement did not exist in the form that it does today (i.e. that of a 'secular religion'), so the term applied to Einstein is meaningless; c) his stated beliefs are not in accord with those of Humanism. [[User:HPotato|HPotato]] ([[User talk:HPotato|talk]]) 10:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
: '''OMFG.''' Omnipresent [[Mystical]] Fair [[Goodness]] ever abides, even amidst all the petty, pretentious and delusive perspectives and outright lies that are often presented AS IF they were fact, or supreme facts, when to anyone with sufficient [[knowledge]] and [[reason]] they clearly are NOT. It is entirely accurate to state Einstein was a [[Humanist]], as the contentions on '''[[Talk:Albert_Einstein#.27Scientist_and_humanist.27|that talk page]]''' by various editors make abundantly clear. I myself have been acutely aware of much of his involvement in endeavors of [[Humanism]] since I was just a toddler, and probably become aware of his support of the [[w:Ethical movement|Ethical Culture Society]] when I was 5 or 6 years old, and this was part of one of the founding alliances of the wider [[w:International Humanist and Ethical Union |International Humanist and Ethical Union]]. And as another editor pointed out: "'''Einstein served on the advisory board of the [[w:First Humanist Society of New York|First Humanist Society of New York]]. His name appears in Wikipedia's [[w:List of humanists|List of humanists]].'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: The problem is that words change meanings. Einstein was undoubtedly a humanist in the classical meaning of the word. However, nowadays it is virtually synonymous with atheist, which Einstein was not. It could be argues, therefore, that to call him a humanist is misleading.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The word still, in this day, also very much means what it used to mean. What is potentially confusing is that some atheists are also humanists and some humanists are also atheists. What is ''misleading'' is the polemics of certain oppositional groups, such as an insistence in the [[w:New Atheism|New Atheism]] that a "good" humanist must be [[w: Antitheism|''anti''-theist]], and the insistence of [[w:Christian right|right-wing political factions]] that all humanists are Godless heathens. "Humanist" and "atheist" are not synonyms: many atheists are not humanists, and many humanists are not atheists. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: '''Thanks for making that point.''' I had written several paragraphs yesterday elaborating on that and related points, but decided to take time to reflect and temper my observations before posting anything here. As it stands I have decided to drop all but the first paragraph, and might bring up other things elsewhere on my own talk pages in coming weeks. Here is part of the first paragraph of what I stated on seeing this yesterday:
::::: '''Of course words change meanings, with time, in human society — as a person familiar with [[history]] I recognize that. As a person familiar with many aspects of the [[sciences]] and [[disciplines]] of [[psychology]] and [[semiotics]] I also recognize they ALWAYS have various nuances and shades of meanings that can and MUST differ between human individuals, ALL of the time.''' KNOWING this I consider it extremely inconsiderate and profoundly wrongful to seek to constrain definitions of words to such uses as are PLAINLY and profoundly WRONG, easily misleading, and ''needlessly'' confusing upon vastly different ranges of issues. I believe that such IS the case in ACCEPTING "Humanism" as a near-synonym for "Atheism" as I assert many ignorant, confused, asinine, arrogant and rationally and ethically incompetent theists AND atheists are prone to do, in order to promote many aspects of their own particular ranges of agenda.
:::: And with that I get back to work on the adding of material to the project, before having to leave again soon. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

== Call for project ideas: funding is available for community experiments ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">

[[File:IEG_key_blue.png|100px|right]]

''I apologize if this message is not in your language. Please help translate it.''

Do you have an idea for a project that could improve your community? [[m:Grants:IEG|Individual Engagement Grants]] from the Wikimedia Foundation help support individuals and small teams to organize experiments for 6 months. You can get funding to try out your idea for online community organizing, outreach, tool-building, or research to help make {{SITENAME}} better. In March, we’re looking for new project proposals.

Examples of past Individual Engagement Grant projects:
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Build_an_effective_method_of_publicity_in_PRChina|Organizing social media for Chinese Wikipedia]] ($350 for materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Visual_editor-_gadgets_compatibility|Improving gadgets for Visual Editor]] ($4500 for developers)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library|Coordinating access to reliable sources for Wikipedians]] ($7500 for project management, consultants and materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision|Building community and strategy for Wikisource]] (€10000 for organizing and travel)

'''[[m:Grants:IEG#ieg-applying|Proposals]] are due by 31 March 2014.''' There are a number of ways to [[m:Grants:IEG|get involved]]!

Hope to have your participation,

--[[m:User:Sbouterse (WMF)|Siko Bouterse, Head of Individual
Engagement Grants, Wikimedia Foundation]] 19:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

</div>


== Buddy Holly Wikiquotes. ==

The Photo you have on that page is not Buddy Holly but a Holly impersonator.
{{unsigned|164.165.145.21}}
: I have lowered the prominence of the disputed image, which I agree is dubious, and added some that are clearly of [[Buddy Holly]] to the page. I might add a few more later. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Language links (interwiki) via Wikidata are coming ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
[[File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg|150px|right]]
Hey everyone :)

I just wanted to let you know that Wikiquote will be the next sister project to be supported by Wikidata. Initially you will be able to maintain the links between the language editions of Wikiquote on Wikidata. This means you will no longer have to maintain them in the wiki text of each article. (However you will still be able to if you want to and local links will overwrite the ones from Wikidata in that case.) We plan to enable this on April 8th for you. At a later point (depending on how this initial roll-out goes) you will also get access to the other data on Wikidata like the date of birth of a scientist for example.

If you have any questions please come to [[d:Wikidata:Wikiquote]] where we'll try to answer all of them. If you're already familiar with Wikidata and want to act as an ambassador please add your name to the list there to help people find you.

I'm looking forward to welcoming you all to Wikidata.

Cheers
[[:d:User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher]] 21:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Bot ==

I have requested Bot permissions at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== What is up with the game-cleanup template? ==

Not sure what the heck is going on, but the page for [[Grim Fandango]] lists a whole bunch of… buses? I think?

Anyway, I traced the problem back to the [[Template:Game-cleanup|game-cleanup template]], but that page isn't editable so I'm not really sure what to do. – Guido del Confuso, 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Well, I just checked and it's fixed now, so never mind, I guess. Unless someone saw this and fixed it, in which case, thanks! — [[User:Guido del Confuso|Guido del Confuso]] ([[User talk:Guido del Confuso|talk]]) 06:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:: It was a simple case of vandalism, which has been reverted. I have protected the underlying "highly visible template". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Indefinitely blocked IP addresses ==

Hi, this proposal is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
# The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at [[Special:BlockList]].
# Amending [[Wikiquote:Blocking policy#Anonymous and open proxies]] to discourage future indefinite blocks, with proposed language changes like adding "Administrators are strongly discouraged/prohibited/advised against indefinitely blocking IP addresses".

As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
# IP addresses should generally never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
# ''In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, such as for open proxies, the '''Meta Stewards have already implemented a near-indefinite global block for it'''.''

Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 05:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I agree that, because IP address assignments tend to be volatile, they ought not be indefinitely blocked except in special cases such as open proxies or very long term abuse. Some of our administrators do occasionally indef-block an address, and other administrators occasionally, but very infrequently, go back and expire them. It has been a couple years since anyone scrubbed the [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=userblocks&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=tempblocks list of indef-blocked IPs] and, as it happens, I recently put it on my to-do list to review them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Quote popularity ==

Is there any way to rank the quotes by popularity, and/or how "well-known" they are? Or at least to sort them into buckets from "very popular" to "very unpopular"? I haven't been able to find it by searching around, but perhaps some method could be programmed.

== Proposed optional changes to Terms of Use amendment ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">Hello all, in response to some community comments in the discussion on the amendment to the Terms of Use on undisclosed paid editing, we have prepared two optional changes. Please [[m:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Optional_changes|read about these optional changes on Meta wiki]] and share your comments. If you can (and this is a non english project), please translate this announcement. Thanks! [[m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 21:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC) </div>


== Formatting sources ==

What's standard procedure on the layout for sourcing quotations on Wikiquote? Currently, [[Wikiquote:Manual of Style]], [[Wikiquote:Sourcing]] and [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]] (still a mess unadapted to Wikiquote since import) doesn't seem to provide a lot of guidance to current practices here. I'm bringing this up because I noticed when I provided the source for a number on quotations on [[Bob Keeshan]], [[User:Geezerbill|Geezerbill]] had already introduced the quote he got from my response ([[Special:Diff/1696976|diff]]) using Wikipedia's <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref> and <references/></nowiki></code> markup, which was later removed by [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] ([[Special:Diff/1696983|diff]]). And basically I was afraid of accidentally stepping into what seemed to be a small dispute over formatting refs, so I reverted myself when I noticed the previous change to the <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref></nowiki></code> layout. I know Kalki's been here longer than I or Geezerbill have been, but I'd like to know the community's opinion on this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you very much for your inquiry. It has made me realize how very much many of our help pages still need simplifying and updating, and despite the tediousness of that and my aversion to prescriptive assertions, I might actually start focusing on that problem within the next month. As to citation styles, though we have come to tolerate many that people have carried over from other types of citation, including those found in footnote and endnote stylings, '''we avoid using footnote citations in favor of interlinear citation.''' Personally, I avoid using templates and do not recommend them, and since the wiki began in 2003 the favored styles have been something along these lines, but with minor adaptations and extensions permitted:

:On Author pages, or pages for an author's works:
:* Quote text.
:** ''Name of Work'' (YYYY) or (Month YYYY) or (DD Month YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
:And on theme pages or in sections where various authors are cited:
:* Quote text.
:** First & Last Name, in ''Name of Work'' (YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
: If there are internet links used, I personally prefer to place them so that the entire title becomes a link, for both aesthetic and practical reasons, as it makes the link cleaner and clearer, but that is not any kind of mandate.

: I am sure there are other things that can be specified, or advised, but that provides a summary of some of the practices and norms which were established early on, and have endured here, despite an increasing importation of other cite styles. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

(edit conflict) @[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: The standard procedure is what you can find on pretty much all Wikiquote pages: we use interlinear, not footnote, citations. This is because WQ considers sources to be an important (and integral) part of quotations. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:Alright, thanks @[[User:Kalki|Kalki]] and @[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: I have a consideration for you though, if you will. Wiktionary uses a similar style of quotation to demonstrate that particular use of a word reflects a particular definition; see [[wikt:go#Verb]] for example, which has "quotations" dropdowns (JavaScript hack from their Common.js) that you can click on to see the full list. Do you mind if I use that as examples of sourcing? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 11:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:: There probably could be some use for such a format option here in some regards, but I would not recommend it for standard citations, which I believe should remain visible as interlinear citations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

* TeleComNasSprVen is correct about the guidelines not describing the layout conventions that have evolved here over time. Since the earliest days of the project, these were largely ignored in favor of a "learn by example" approach (and even "discover by experiment"). E.g., the use of interlinear citations is ''exemplified'' at [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout]] and [[Wikiquote:Templates]], but the practice is not ''stated or explained'' anywhere except in discussions. It is also rather tricky to give general guidance that avoids unnecessarily arbitrary specifics, as many details of presentation are subject to considerable variation. (E.g., in contrast to Kalki's preferences, I usually link just the title rather than the whole citation, and for serial publications I do not usually parenthesize the date that identifies the issue unless volume and issue numbers are also given. Neither approach is wrong.) I am not exactly volunteering to rewrite the guidelines, but I have long felt that greater clarity would be a good thing for orienting newcomers, and that it would be better if the generic {{tl|cleanup}} templates could link to specific conventions that need to be addressed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: You could try using that "dropdown" format here for sources, on one or two pages, as an experiment. I don't think it is one we should adopt, though, because, other than implying that sources are secondary, it would also prevent people from simply saving or copying the article with citations to a Word document, without first having to click on every single box to show the sources. (I guess the same problem would apply to those who'd want to print it.) And having those little boxes in front of every quote could also prove distracting (precisely the thing you want to avoid). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:In any case, I like a little bit of standardization, and templates go quite some ways toward that, so I threw together a template that might be worth trying out at [[testwiki:Template:Quotation-author]]. I'm also considering moving it to Wikiquote but I'm afraid it might be deleted for lack of consensus. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Some levels and types of standardization are quite acceptable but templates often become ways to automatically impose some which prevent exceptions and useful variations, thus I generally tend to avoid them when I can. I am not sure there are any desirable advantages to having that template here, and I perceive there might be problems with the overuse of such. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but in that case we could try stipulating on the template documentation page itself that the template is not the only way to source our quotations. What if instead of making a template "official", everyone had a way of having their quotation-sourcing style attributed to them? For example, <code><nowiki>{{User:TeleComNasSprVen/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> would be attributed to me (in the source code) and uses my style, while <code><nowiki>{{User:Kalki/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> is attributed to you and uses your style. For one-off exceptions we could always subst/delete the original transclusion and replace it with a custom-made sourcing style, and it would be relatively easy to change all existing tranclusions by modifying the master template. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Well no, I don't mean exactly in the way they use it, but in terms of the source code and JavaScript/wikitext implementation involved I was thinking of something similar to the template I created above. Try it on a few pages on the testwiki (since they're mostly garbage anyway) and see if you like it.{{unsigned|TeleComNasSprVen}}
::I fear that would be even more confusing to new editors. I think sources should be simply written in plain text, so that in the future they can be easily altered, and corrected, by different people. We already have a few templates (see, e.g., [[:Category:Citation templates]]), but I personally avoid them altogether; it's much easier for me to just write down whatever information I have of the source, without having to follow strict parameters. That's just me, though, maybe other editors see it differently. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I know you object to the use of templates in general, but as a matter of personal style preferences would you, or anyone else in this thread, object to me moving the template from testwiki over here? As I said, since it seems you disapprove of templates in general, instead of moving it to template-space and make it an "official" widely used Wikiquote template, I could relocate it to my userspace to mark it "This is my personal style and others are likely to use their own", at least in the source code. You can implement your own styles using plain wikitext or whatever, but my opinion is in favor of a template, as you can probably guess. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I don't think anyone would object to you moving this new template to your own userspace. (You can even move it to WQ's template space, as far as I'm concerned.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: On general principles I don't think it is a good idea for articles to transclude things from userspace. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe he could use "subst:"? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal: More community involvement in Quote of the Day process ==

'''Proposal:'''
#I would like to propose we the community discuss having more involvement, as a community, in the Quote of the Day process for both (1) Selecting quotes and (2) Layout of quotes and images, on the [[Main Page]].
#Selection of quotes: It appears that at present quotes are voted on at individual date pages, example [[March 20]], and then selected by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.
#Layout of quotes and images on [[Main Page]]: It appears that at present, Layout of quotes and images in the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]] is determined by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.

(Side note: [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1698258&oldid=1698219 helpfully pointed out that I am genuinely doing my best to conduct myself with a professional conduct during this debate.] I would ask others to do the same, thank you.)

'''Some of my general ideas:'''

#Selection of quotes: As long as this takes into consideration opinions of the Wikiquote community at large, and the present system seems to do that, this seems okay. Not idea, but alright. Perhaps instead of one user we the community could elect a Committee of three (3) users for the final selection of the quotes, so that an odd number could help resolve disputes if and when they arise.
#Layout of Quote of the day section: This is where I have differing opinions with the current layout formatting. I truly believe there is: (1) Too many images used, but particularly too many images used that are ''not directly related'' to the quote itself. I feel for the most part images should be of the subject of the quote, the individual himself/herself that first stated the quote. (2) I feel that there is generally too much wikilinking-of-words-within-the-quote, and that this detracts from the reading of the quote, itself.

What do others think? Would it be best to move this discussion to a subpage for further debate by the community?

I'd like to move to establish a community process for determining Layout of Quotes for the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]], that better takes into account input of the community, instead of one individual.

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:Some initial thoughts: I feel that having a more robust process for selecting the QoD is an admirable goal, but being realistic I feel that we may have problems with participation. I for one used to participate in the voting process, but found that I was often unable to find the time to do so and still manage all the other tasks I wished to do here to improve other areas. I sincerely doubt I would have the time to participate on a daily basis. I think that the legacy of having Kalki perform much of the work simply grew out of the lack of available others to help with the large effort required to keep producing them. That being said, I do not have a problem with trying something new - I just fear that (as with many other discussions or ideas) we really do not have enough active editors that might participate. I don't want to discourage new ideas, but that's my initial thought.

:As to some of your other points, I do agree that there are times when there seem to be too many images and that these tend to overshadow the quote. But I also believe that this is the exception and not the rule. I believe that in some of the recent discussion, a loose rule of approximately four images was generally deemed acceptable - and is something I would also support. I also agree that the selected images should be related to the quote, but I am not so disposed to pose strict limits such that only the author of the quote is pictured. Although on occasion I have disagreed with selected images (and if this happens, I would rather address that on a case by case basis - maybe we should require the proposed layout to be posted at least a week in advance so others can comment? - Just thinking out loud) I have not often found the images selected to be all that bad - the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy|Image use policy]] does allow for more latitude than just the author. Finally, I do not have a problem with the wikilinking - in fact I consider this to be a positive aspect since it leads readers to explore other pages on the site (and has been common practice on all WQ pages for as long as I can remember). ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Okay, thank you, I respect your opinions. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I tend to agree with [[User:UDScott|UDScott]]'s analysis. I view QOTD as ephemeral, and am just not particularly interested in being involved in that process. I have suggested a quote or two over the years, but working on it day in and day out seems like a grind, and I'm glad someone else is willing to take up the task at all. That said, I certainly don't think it would ''harm'' the process for more editors to be involved in suggesting quotes to be used or evaluating suggestions that have been made. As for layout, I generally agree that we should have fewer images (one on each side should be enough), and I like UDScott's suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review. As for wikilinking, I also think that this is a good thing for our project, and would actually like to see a ''lot'' more of it, not just in QOTD, but in our articles generally. While we are not an advertising click farm that profits by getting people to view more pages, we do want the reader to have the best possible sense of the breadth of our project, and the greatest ease in jumping to other pages that might be of interest. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you. So moving forward, we have three editors so far that support the suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review, and having the community more involved in the layout process. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: '''The layout ''usually'' is present for review a day or two in advance, and I will endeavor to have some ideas presented even earlier in the future, as they often have been.''' I had to laugh out loud a bit here, because in rather typical fashion, you choose to ''ignore'' what ''praise'' or ''recognition'' my past presentations have generally had for over 10 years of nearly daily efforts here and ONLY emphasize what you wish to emphasize, which you reiterate in ways which, to the casual scanner of the comments, could make it seem previous responses were primarily critical of them, and present them in such ways as seem designed to develop more means to actively constrain or counter my involvement in various ways. I will note that over the years I believe that I have received far more praise for my efforts from casual visitors to the site and regular editors than disrespectful criticism, though some of the few people most prone to that have gradually accumulated into a small but relatively effective pack in their efforts to constrain the options available not only to me, but to everyone, and they have done this, thus far with relatively little notice or opposition from people more inclined to appreciate and include imagery in their presentations.

: '''Despite occasional procrastination or tardiness, I have ''usually'' had presentations ready at least a couple days in advance, and yet I am certainly against any authorization that these simply be butchered by specious arguments or assertions by those not interested in doing much layout work themselves.''' Though there are certainly further complications which could arise, opening up the processes more is not something I certainly am NOT adamantly against, but '''IF things are going to become more formally complicated and there is to be some final contestation for final layout I say it should be without any pre-determined constraints, beyond the legally necessary ones such as have ''always'' been recognized. IF there are alternate layouts to be proposed, by anyone, they should probably be presented on the talk pages of the related date, and if it seems there is a need for a vote between any alternatives we should let the most popular layout, within actual legal limits, become the chosen one, without PRIOR constraints and conditions of WHAT and HOW or WHY it can be presented.''' I know this might seem a somewhat frightening proposition to those who most seek to actively constrain the options available to others, and of course greater participation might not be what some people are actually after, and they merely seek to subtly or overtly diminish the options of others to devise layouts and present them — but I believe that opening up even more layout options is far more fair and likely to produce actually GOOD results, and more participation, IF that is truly what people are in any way after, than simply allowing more ways a few people, noticeably hostile or critical to my work in the past, to simply ''butcher it down'' on a nearly daily basis, as a means of further personal harassment of an avid worker. '''THAT of course is something I believe any person of genuine integrity MUST oppose as a betrayal of the principles with which wiki projects were founded, and also of the more general [[ethical]] [[principles]] of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]] and [[Joyous]] [[Universal]] [[Love]].''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with UDScott's comments 100%. I would just add, that Kalki is ''very'' receptive to QOTD suggestions; for example, [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 20, 2014|today's QOTD]] (that you can currently see on the main page) was actually suggested by me. Although more participation would be welcome, the reality is that very few people participate in the voting process, or suggest quotes. This is unlikely to change. Kalki's work in this area is actually very much commendable, and how he has consistently found the time and energy to keep up with the QOTDs for so long, is simply incredible. Although I enjoyed reading through some pages where quotes are suggested, and voting in them, I must say most of them are filled with unmemorable (bad) quotes, and even selecting the "best" of them is a challenge. I believe the fault here is that quotes are being suggested for the days of birth of authors, so there are some days, that don't have a single good quote. If I had any criticism of Kalki's selections, it would be that he sometimes doesn't choose the very best quotes, simply because they are too short. (I think he prefers longer ones because they give him more liberty in the selection of pictures.) I disagree with BD's comment: the QOTD is not "ephemeral", the main page is ''by far'' Wikiquote's most viewed page. It is how WQ presents itself to newcomers. For this reason, other than the avoidance of New Age imagery, I would really like to see sources being presented along the quotes in the main page, which would be a more proper representation of WQ. This could be easily implemented, if Kalki could see, that presenting sources is not aesthetically displeasing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I actually often choose longer quotes because they often are more extensive in their expressions of ideas and thoughts than some of the briefer ones that are available. I certainly have no aversion to short quotes, and there are many good short ones which I have chosen and have long been among my favorites — but many of the more notable short ones available have already been used. I have often stated that I generally dislike the idea of having the citations in the layouts, because though simple reference to the titles of works are used if they have a separate page, all of the technical info is available on the author's or the work's page, which are linked to, and this can often be aesthetically detrimental or cumbersome in an otherwise appealing layout. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I just want to add that I mean ephemeral in the sense of the QOTD being fleeting - there one day, replaced the next. I prefer to work on permanent installations. I'm not saying that QOTD is unimportant, merely that it is impermanent, and I prefer to direct my energies towards the permanent. I would also like to suggest that, in order to preserve resources and have a contingency available in case there is a dispute, there's no reason that we can't reuse some old quotes and layouts for QOTD. We've been doing this for many years now, and I think that we can grab a handful of the best examples that were used, say, five or six years ago, and have them as a standby. No visitor is likely to remember our quotes from that long ago. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:The sad fact is that no matter how much you want to try and revive a process, you can't force volunteers from a volunteer-driven website to work on an area that they have no knowledge nor interest in. I think community participation in the QotD process has always been open, the problem merely is the community has no interest in said participation. A related problem is investment of our limited time and proper allocation of volunteer resources. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: In response to a few of BD2412's remarks, I would point out, that aside from a very few cases of ''accidental'' repetition, and one case I recall where the layout chosen and displayed was late in the day replaced with a layout from the year before in an act of censorship of ideas by another editor, there has been no deliberate repetition of layouts, though with limited imagery of some authors, a few used with new quotes probably are similar to those used in the past with others. The archives of [[QOTD by month|QOTD by month]] provide a record of the past layouts, since November 2007, and some other pages list the selections prior to those. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: I am aware that there has been virtually no repetition, and commend the work that has produced original work to this point. However, we have the option of doing some recycling. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Numbers: the main page is viewed by over [http://stats.grok.se/en.q/latest/Main_Page 10,000] people every day. I don't think we need to repeat quotes, but the fixation with authors' birth-dates rather than with presenting the very best, most brilliant, quotes we have, sometimes (in some days) leaves much to be desired. I don't know how Kalki feels about this. We could also try to be more flexible, and change the QOTD when someone notable passes away, as a tribute, or when a speech receives great attention, (e.g. [[Ellen Page]]'s,) though there could be some objections to this (''test of time'', etc). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I believe that the ''guideline'' of preferring relationships to the date has been useful in preventing or minimizing floods of repetition of similar suggestions or sources over extensive periods of days. It has never been treated as an ''absolute'' rule, and where significant authors have no known birth or death dates, there is often a strong case for these. I have sometimes thought of having some days of the weeks or month designated as giving a greater weight to ancient authors, but never came up with what I perceived to be an entirely workable scheme for such. Until 2009, when my long-standing and never-misused admin status was removed, and last minute alterations were no longer reliably possible, I ''often'' changed QOTDs at the last moment, to something appropriate to the circumstances of prominent person's deaths. This option is one I believe I have not exercised since that time, even when the pages were not yet locked, believing I lacked any "authority" or authorization to improvise beyond the suggestions ranked highly on the suggestion pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

: I agree that the level of participation is a callenge for this process. Note how few people participate in ranking quotes on a regular basis. I recall at least one occasion when Kalki made a [[Wikiquote:Village pump archive 25#QOTD problems|plea for more participation]], which produced a modest increase for only a brief time. In my own experience, when I did try to participate on a regular basis it became rather tedious after a while, particularly since there were often a large number of candidates to review and since, as DanielTom notes, a lot of then were not very good. There is a tendency for mediocre and poor suggestions to accumulate and remain after the better ones have been used and removed from the list. I approve of Kalki's idea for posting layouts farther in advance so they can be reviewed and discussed. A day ir two is not really enough time unless one makes a habit of reviewing them every single day. One week might be more convenient. This small step would make the process open to to broader participation for those occasions when people do want to participate. A more structured system might be considered if and when actual participation reaches a level that could benefit from organization. Making it an open process is the most important step. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Kalki keeps Wikiquote fresh and updated with the daily quotes provided by him. Everyone can find faults, but is there anyone willing to put into as huge effort as he does? --[[User:Spannerjam|Spannerjam]] ([[User talk:Spannerjam|talk]]) 12:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

== Copyrighted franchise quotes ==

Hello, I'm brand new here, so please forgive me for asking this if I'm missing something really obvious, but how do we handle copyrighted franchise quotes (i.e. Pokedex entries or trading card flavor text)? I'm not seeing any here, so I'd like to add them, but since they're copyrighted, I'm not sure. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: Are they actually ''quoted'' by anyone? Are they attested in a source other than the card itself, or the manufacturer's website? This sounds pretty close to [[advertising slogans]], for which we have imposed a requirement of third-party quoting, to avoid promotional exploitation here. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::So if I can find a third-party source besides quote collections, then they're okay? Is there a way to add said sources? I'm not seeing any on the pages I've seen so far. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 04:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I suppose you could go by the format in [[advertising slogans]], or see [[English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb)]], since we have a similar reporting requirement for proverbs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: Alright, thanks! [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 17:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] title discussion ==

A proposal has been made at Wikipeda, at [[w:Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8]], to change the title of the article, "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to "Hillary Clinton". I presume that if that move succeeds, we would likewise move our [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] page to [[Hillary Clinton]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Changes to the default site typography coming soon ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">
This week, the typography on Wikimedia sites will be updated for all readers and editors who use the default "Vector" skin. This change will involve new serif fonts for some headings, small tweaks to body content fonts, text size, text color, and spacing between elements. The schedule is:

* '''April 1st''': non-Wikipedia projects will see this change live
* '''April 3rd''': Wikipedias will see this change live

This change is very similar to the "Typography Update" Beta Feature that has been available on Wikimedia projects since November 2013. After several rounds of testing and with feedback from the community, this Beta Feature will be disabled and successful aspects enabled in the default site appearance. Users who are logged in may still choose to use another skin, or alter their [[Special:MyPage/vector.css|personal CSS]], if they prefer a different appearance. Local [[MediaWiki:Common.css|common CSS]] styles will also apply as normal, for issues with local styles and scripts that impact all users.

For more information:
* [[mw:Typography refresh|Summary of changes and FAQ]]
* [[mw:Talk:Typography refresh|Discussion page]] for feedback or questions
* [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/03/27/typography-refresh/ Post] on blog.wikimedia.org

-- [[m:User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling]] (Product Manager) on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Design|User Experience Design]] team
</div>


: The more open font in the body text will take a little getting used to, but it could be worse. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:09, April Fools 2014 (UTC)
:: +1. (My initial thought was: "Let's hope this is an April Fool's joke!", but it's not ''that'' bad.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I actually find the text in "diff" pages much more legible. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Wikibreak. ==

I am feeling a bit burned out. I'll be back in a week or so. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
:[[Lily Tomlin|For fast acting relief, try slowing down.]] (Enjoy your break.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:35, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== vandalism ==

As a relatively new user looking at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] I've just noticed that only administrators and bots automatically have their edits patrolled, which means that there is no way to filter out edits by experienced users from RC. Why don't you give <tt>autopatrolled</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> rights to non-admin users (by creating a user group)?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    09:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
: As far as I know, RC does not have a filter for autopatrolled users. NP does, but the number of new pages per day in this wiki is quite small compared to Wikipedia. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::It has in Wikidata and Commons … <s>do you have patroller rights?</s>    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    17:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::As an admin you probably do. The URL on Wikiquote should be https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1, if you are autoconfirmed on Wikidata you can find it [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1 here].    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    18:10, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
:::[[User:Ningauble]]: I may agree to <tt>rollback</tt> implemented here to easily revert the high level of vandalism we get. I see no problem in this. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:54, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::::I agree that also (some) non-admin users should be able to rollback. As Wikiquote is a rather small wiki I'd recommend choosing the de.WP variant (<tt>editor</tt> group includes rollback, reviewing, ...) instead of the en.WP or COM variant (<tt>rollbacker</tt>, <tt>reviewer</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> and many other groups only giving one additional right each) and creating a user group called <tt>trusted user</tt> or similarly (although I'm personally probably not "trusted" yet).    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    00:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Header

2014-04-03T18:46:11Z

FDMS4: /* INSTRUCTIONS */ incident index has been deleted, I personally see no need for a link to the talkpage

{{shortcut|[[WQ:AN]]}}
{| class="plainlinks"
| style="text-align: right; font-size: x-small;" | [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Header|action=edit}} edit the header]
|}
{{archives|
*2005-'06 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/001|#1]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/002|#2]]
*2007 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/003|#3]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/004|#4]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/005|#5]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/006|#6]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/007|#7]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/008|#8]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/009|#9]]
*2008 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/010|#10]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/011|#11]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/012|#12]]
*2009 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/013|#13]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/014|#14]]
*2010 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/015|#15]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/016|#16]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/017|#17]]
*2011 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/018|#18]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/019|#19]]
*2012 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/020|#20]] [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/021|#21]]
*2013 [[Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive/022|#22]]
}}

This is a messageboard for [[Wikiquote:Administrators|all administrators]].

= INSTRUCTIONS =

Please feel free to report incidents, a complaint about an administrator, or anything you want administrators to be aware of.

Please be aware that these pages ''aren't'' the place to bring disputes over content, reports of abusive behavior, or requests for a mediation between another editor and you — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors. You are better to talk with that editor by mail or on talk, or ask other editors their opinion on [[WQ:VP|Village pump]].

The chief purpose of this page is to allow admins to ask each other for help and/or information, to communicate ideas, and for admin talk to happen.

However, any user of Wikiquote may post here. Admins are not a club of elites, but normal editors with some additional technical abilities. Anyone is free to use it to talk to admins as a group. Please feel free to [http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard&action=edit&section=new leave a message].

If you do, '''please''' sign and ''date'' all contributions, using the Wikiquote special form "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>", which translates into a signature and a time stamp automatically.

To request special assistance from an administrator, like deletion, use appropriate pages or tags.

To request assistance from a specific administrator, see <nowiki>[[User talk:</nowiki>''Whoever''<nowiki>]]</nowiki>.

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'''Pages needing admin intervention:'''
* [[Wikiquote:Protected titles]]
* [[Wikiquote:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage]]
* [[MediaWiki:Bad image list]]
* [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]]
* [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice id]] ''when you update [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], id num needs also to be incrementally grown''
* [[MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist]] For global blacklisting, go to [[m:Talk:Spam blacklist]] instead.
* [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]] (upper compatible w/ [[MediaWiki:Usernameblacklist]])

'''See also:'''
* [[Wikiquote:Blocking_policy|Blocking policy]]
* [[Special:Ipblocklist|List of blocked IP addresses and usernames]]
* [[Special:Log/block|Block log]]
* [[Wikiquote:Protection policy]] (now drafting)
* [[Special:Log/protect|Protection log]]

'''Bureaucrat tasks''':
:;Bots
* [[Wikiquote:Bots]]
* [[Special:Log/makebot|Bot status log]]
:;Renaming
* [[Wikiquote:Changing username]]
* [[Wikiquote:Changing username/Usurpation]]
* [[Special:Log/renameuser|Rename user log]]
:;Promotion
* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]]
* [[Special:Log/rights|User rights log]]

'''Tools''':
*[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~eagle/linksearch Linksearch]
*[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~luxo/contributions/contributions.php crosswiki contrib search]
*[http://toolserver.org/~vvv/sulutil.php SUL account status]

__FORCETOC__
__NEWSECTIONLINK__
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[[de:Wikiquote:Administratoren/Notizen]]
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[[nl:Wikiquote:Verzoekpagina aan conciërges]]
[[Category:Wikiquote|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</includeonly>

Wikiquote:Village pump

2014-04-03T18:10:41Z

FDMS4: /* vandalism */ syntax

__NEWSECTIONLINK__
{{Wikiquote:Village pump/Header}}

== Scientology ==

What does the community make of this edit by [[user:Cirt]] on the [[Scientology]] page?

These ten quotations (actually eleven entries, but one is a duplicate) only mention Scientology tangentially, and are all primarily about est or Werner Erhard and seem to have been cherry-picked to give a misleading impression that there is a far stronger connection to Scientology than existed in reality.

For example

*" The founder of EST, a former member of the Scientology church called Werner Erhard..."
*"*Est (Erhard Seminars Training) has been a singularly successful synthetic derivation, which has itself gone on to generate new movements, transmitting aspects of Scientology thought or practice far from the domain of L. Ron Hubbard."
*"Rupert (1992) discusses a range of cases... such as the human potential movement, est, or Scientology."
*"...and est/Forum was a repackaging of Scientology by Werner Erhard,..."
*"Werner Erhard's highly successful est cult is partly derived from Scientology."

etc.

The fact of the matter is that Erhard did a few Scientology courses in the space of five months in early 1970, at a time when he was avidly investigating a vast range of philosophies and disciplines, but that is not the impression that a reader of this page would be left with.

Does it not reflect negatively on the reputation of Wikiquote to have the Scientology page commandeered to serve as a coatrack to propagate misleading information about other organizations and individuals?

It may be relevant that Cirt has an extensive history of POV-pushing on these subjects on wikipedia, and in fact was de-sysopped and topic-banned for exactly that behavior [[w:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466#Remedies|there]]. After that, he concentrated on other wikimedia projects (where he has undoubtedly done a good deal of great work), but perhaps he cannot resist the temptation to return to his obsessions? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:'''Reply:''' {{done}}. I've gone ahead and voluntarily taken the initiative to move those above-mentioned quotes to the talk page, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=1654965&oldid=1643592 DIFF]. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to {{user|MLKLewis}}. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I do not feel that Cirt's response fully adresses my concerns. Although he has removed the five items that I listed above by way of example, he has left the other five equally questionable entries on the page. And what is the justification for inserting the removed material into the Talk page, which is meant to be for discussions about how to improve the Topic page?

Furthermore, is not the intense activity this last October at this page:
https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Landmark_Forum&offset=&limit=100&action=history
a further example of Cirt's attempting to hijack Wikiquote to propagate a personal viewpoint, an activity for which he was sanctioned at Wikipedia? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 07:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{user|MLKLewis}}, I'm glad you've acknowledged that I went ahead and removed entries from that page. If you participate in talk page discussion on the individual page I hope we can come to an amicable resolution together about this. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Quotes about notable social implications of technology ==

I would like to add quotes about particular scientific developments to Wikiquote. Is this ok?[[User:Open Research|Open Research]] ([[User talk:Open Research|talk]]) 13:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

:It should be perfectly fine as long as the subject fulfills [[WQ:N|our notability guideline]]. As a general rule of thumb, if there's a Wikipedia page, it's notable enough. Is there a particular development you want to add? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 01:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== Delete (not just lock) simple.wikiquote.org? ==

The simple-English wikiquote project at http://simple.wikiquote.org has been locked for some time, but it's still visible on the web, so it hasn't been fully closed. The simple English version of (apparently) 591 pages taints the whole project by making it look infantile - an impression reinforced by all those pages on the main site that use kindergarten-style images of galaxies and flames to illustrate abstract ideas. Isn't it time to remove it? [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 21:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: Though there are clearly many differences of opinion between us on many matters, here is something I believe we can agree upon. I never really liked the idea much, but for a time it was clear that at least a few others did, and I am usually loathe to suppress efforts of others needlessly. The quality of their productions never did find broad appeal, and their enthusiasms were eventually dismissed, derided and suppressed by others, and the project killed. As it seems to be a thoroughly defunct site, I believe its presence on the web should probably be removed, and would support any efforts to have this done, within whatever guidelines the Wikimedia Foundation have developed for doing so. ''R.I.P. Simple Wikiquote. So it goes…'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I also agree that it ought to be deleted. About three years ago, after the [[m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Simple English Wikiquote (3)|decision to "close" the project]] but before official policy for closures was adopted, I [[m:User talk:SPQRobin#Merging simple.wikiquote into en.wikiquote|discussed the final disposition]] of the ''WikiParaphrase'' project with a LangCom member, but I did not initiate formal proceedings at the time. If someone would like to do so, the official venue is at [[m:Proposals for closing projects]], and is governed by [[m:Closing projects policy]] under the auspices of [[m:Langcom|LangCom]] delegated by the Foundation Board. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:QoDList]] ==

This new template transcludes {{tl|QoDBar}} and is able to output a list of all Quotes Of The Day for a given month, via [[Module:QoD]]. So [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 2014]] and such wouldn't have to be handled manually. Do you support implementing it practically? --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
: It is not immediately obvious to me how this works. Viewing the new [[Template:QoDList]], the output of "#invoke:QoD|list" is null. I am guessing, from examining the code of [[Module:QoD]], that it depends on the context where the template is transcluded. Could you provide a sample page exemplifying use of the new template in a context where the module output is non-null, and consider fleshing out some documentation or usage notes at [[Template:QoDList/doc]] and/or [[Module:QoD/doc]]? Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]]: it depends on the page, but the month-year pair can also be specified manually (as <nowiki>{{#invoke:QoD|list|June 2013}}</nowiki>). You can see {{tl|QoDList}} in action on [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013]] ([{{fullurl:Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013|diff=1662309&oldid=1646908}} {{int:diff}}]). I also added some docs, feel free to edit them. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 15:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

== Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James ??? ==

[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=William_James&oldid=1664112&diff=prev DIFF] = Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James.

Does this community think this is too many images for a page?

Does the community feel this will cramp down on loading time for our readers, discouraging them from viewing pages on Wikiquote?

Does the community feel this will make load time difficult for editors, turning them off from editing Wikiquote?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:This member of this community does NOT think "this is too many images for a page." '''The VERY highly used Wikimedia Commons places FAR more images on a standard page.''' I can appreciate that some people who do not have fast connections (for whatever reasons this might be the case) will not easily appreciate ''many'' of the pages on the internet with graphics. Yet I do not believe that these relative few who do not use some auxiliary browsers set for faster browsing without images, to hasten the time of downloading pages without such graphics as are quite standard on MOST web-pages today, should keep our pages permanently crippled to a highly constrained standards which might have made some sense 10 years ago, but are hardly appropriate today. '''I believe nothing is more likely to be "turning anyone off" from editing Wikiquote than such bossiness with constraints as a ''very few'' people have been increasingly pushing here in recent years — by which they can control more of what others can or cannot do, and reducing the options available to others here in ways I have frankly found disgusting and contemptible, and often extremely hypocritical — and I am quite ready to make plain some of the reasons why in the coming months.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Whatever the merits or faults of the policy, it's clear that this part of it has frequently been ignored by some editors:

::"'''Dispute resolution''' An image that is not a literal representation of the subject of the page may be removed by any editor who believes it to be inappropriate. Thereafter, it should not be re-added without first obtaining consensus on the article talk page."

Perhaps it might be better to follow established and unambiguous policy rather than ignore it merely because (apparently) an editor doesn't like it? - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

:: '''I have sometimes engaged in [[w:direct action|direct action]] of rather mild and moderate [[civil disobedience]] in accord with the principles of [[Justice]] and [[Liberty]] that others seem quite satisfied to give little more than a lot of shallow and safe "lip service" to.''' In this particular case, I view "the merits or faults of the policy" that was devised by a few people some months ago as nothing more or less than thoughtlessly or deliberately giving free reign to those most eager to '''[[Censorship|censor]]''', VANDALIZE and remove any traces of MANY of the IDEAS and ''efforts'' of others to make generally important points and generally appealing presentations of the quotes here.''' I am actually inclined to use far harsher terms, but restrain myself for now.''' Even at the start I recognized these proposed "rules" as contemptible and unworthy of any significant respect, as simply devices providing ''implicit'' sanction and approval to the most narrow-minded, intolerant and malicious of people, most eager to denigrate the contributions of others, to destroy as rapidly as they could, and with VERY little consideration, what others might have taken months or years of careful consideration to gradually produce. '''I truly consider the fact that so inanely destructive and foully ''[[fascist]]'' an "ideal" and ''practice'' as those INNATELY unjust "policies" represent have not been recognized as such by others as simply disgraceful.''' Such an atmosphere created by the increasing arrogance and smug intolerance of those who seek to control and constrain others, and the bafflement and disgust of those who wish to contribute in the spirit of liberty advocated by the greatest of people, and which was one of the foundational principles of the wiki software, and the Wikimedia projects themselves is what I believe far more people than myself find appalling and sometimes discouraging.

:: Prior to the above statement I was going to make this relevant point: A standard setting at Wikimedia Commons, which is the source of all the imagery available to us, provides 200 image thumbnails to a page, and such is what I get quite swiftly when I click on '''[[commons:Category:Nature|Category:Nature]]'''. This once could mean a very long download time, but certainly does not with most users who are likely to do much browsing on the internet at all today. I certainly do not plan to use that many on any article page here — but to make large pages with even dozens of images on them, which are relatively rare and probably always will be, seem incredibly burdensome to most users is something I believe is ludicrous. I would probably spend more time saying a bit more, but I have to be leaving now, and am already running a bit late on important matters. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::I agree with the comment by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. However with regards to this particular page I will leave it to others to hopefully take action here regarding the violations of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] that have taken place, as noted by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Block ==

Please block [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:YODO_(You_Only_Die_Once) User:YODO (You Only Die Once)], this user is obviously immature, one example is stating in one of his edit summaries: ''Get a life you sockpuppet!''. I spoke with DanielTom at Meta. I will be here to revert his vandal-edits. To be honest, I don't care if I engage in an edit war. The administrators here are not very active. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Goldenburg111]] ([[User talk:Goldenburg111|talk]]) 18:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:Looks like no admin is around right now, so I've blocked that user for one day. Please review the action and take (if needed) further action. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 20:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:I yet blocked another user: [[User:Tell me about it!]]. As above, review the action taken and adjust it as you seem it fits. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks, both have been re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Personally, I would do a 3 month block, but that's me. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks, I just issued another block on {{user|DarknessFalls74}}. As with the two above, please review the action taken and adjust it as needed. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks, the user is re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback ==

I am requesting rollback permission is so I can easily rollback vandal edits. I also "participated in the [[User:YODO (You Only Die Once)]] vandal attack", and it was pretty hard undoing his edits and I usually got into edit conflicts. Clarifying that Rollback Rights are given to users to easily revert '''pure''' vandalism. I just tagged a few spam pages for deletion and reverted a vandal-only account's action of a page recently. I am also a rollbacker on the Simple English Wiktionary, and of course, I would be in big trouble if I was lying. I am an Anti-Vandal Worker at Meta and Wikipedia. I am also an admin and bureaucrat on the Orian Test Wiki and admin at the Test Wiki. I am also, at Wikia, currently an admin on 10 wikis and crat on 5 of those wikis. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:The best thing for you to do would be to request Adminship at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] so that the merits of your request can be discussed and determined. My sense is that you have made many positive edits and reverted plenty of vandalism. The only question might be the relatively short period of time in which you have been editing here, but that may or may not be a large stumbling block. In the end, it would be best to formally request it and let the discussion begin. Good luck. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]])
::Okay, thanks UDScott, one question, can I take this subject off? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I would just leave it and maybe direct readers to the [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] page, should they wish to contribute to the discussion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@UDScott: I feel it is unwise to encourage Golden to run for adminship so prematurely, as he wouldn't stand a chance (despite his best intentions), and the result could upset him. @Golden: even if you don't have rollback rights, you can still revert vandalism. I know you want to help out, but please try to be patient. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::@DanielTom: As quoted by Jimbo Wales, "no big deal". --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Goldenburg111 does not realise that on WQ, only admins can be granted rollback.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:(Is this true? Abramsky, what do your <s>elf</s> admin eyes [[Special:UserRights|see]]?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:: It is not a separately grantable user right at Wikiquote: there is no "Rollbacker" user group like at Wikipedia. Rollback is included in the rights of the Administrator group, as shown at [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. (The corresponding configuration at Wikipedia is much more complex and [[Bureaucracy|bureaucratic]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Request for comment on Commons: Should Wikimedia support MP4 video? ==

''I apologize for this message being only in English. Please translate it if needed to help your community.''

The Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Multimedia|multimedia team]] seeks community guidance on a proposal to support the [[w:MP4|MP4 video format]]. This digital video standard is used widely around the world to record, edit and watch videos on mobile phones, desktop computers and home video devices. It is also known as [[w:MP4|H.264/MPEG-4 or AVC]].

Supporting the MP4 format would make it much easier for our users to view and contribute video on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects -- and video files could be offered in dual formats on our sites, so we could continue to support current open formats (WebM and Ogg Theora).

However, MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, and using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only supporting open formats on our sites -- even though the licenses appear to have acceptable legal terms, with only a small fee required.

We would appreciate your guidance on whether or not to support MP4. Our Request for Comments presents views both in favor and against MP4 support, based on opinions we’ve heard in our discussions with community and team members.

[[commons:Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video|Please join this RfC -- and share your advice]].

All users are welcome to participate, whether you are active on Commons, Wikipedia, other Wikimedia project -- or any site that uses content from our free media repository.

You are also welcome to join tomorrow's [[m:IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours|Office hours chat on IRC]], this Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC, if you would like to discuss this project with our team and other community members.

We look forward to a constructive discussion with you, so we can make a more informed decision together on this important topic. [[m:User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


: I am not sure anyone here is qualified to translate from English to Quotish, but if somebody wants to give it a try.... ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Global sysops ==

Hello Wikiquote community!

As you may have seen, I recently blocked some accounts on this project in my capacity as [[m:Stewards|steward]]. In the light of the fact that this project has only few really active sysops, I'd like to suggest you to allow [[m:Global sysops|global sysops]] acting on your project. Those users are being elected on meta to help small projects with the removal of vandalism etc. They're generally supposed to not act like a normal locally elected admin and will mostly only act in emergencies. I could imagine that this would help here from time to time. While I'm technically able to issue blocks or delete page (just as any other steward), I feel rather uncomfortable doing this, as I'd rather see that done by local people.

I could very well imagine that this would help here. Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed and the same would be needed to remove them at any point when needed. Please take your time and consider this idea carefully. If you've any further questions, please feel free to ping me. Kind regards, -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:Barras, why would you feel uncomfortable blocking obvious rampant vandals? I agree with you, that it should be preferably done "by local people", but global sysops aren't "local" either, and I don't understand how global sysops would do a better job in answering emergencies and stopping rampant vandals than stewards do (besides, as far as I know, there are many more stewards than global sysops). Recent vandalism spree aside (which was done by sockpuppets that need to be checked and blocked), I believe the ideal solution is to have more ''local'' active admins, which is why I suggested [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] to run for adminship again. (At least that would be my preference.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Stewards can't watch everything, simply put. Global sysops help fill in the gaps of steward coverage, which I believe was one reason the group was created in the first place.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]|[[:m:User talk:Jasper Deng|meta]]) 04:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:I would support adding GS, but I have a COI as I am one myself. ;) See my contributions for all the stuff I could have blocked if this wiki were opted-in. Of course, it's up to the community. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Per PiRSquared17. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Smaller projects should always opt in for Global Sysops, since it is not that simple to get more active local admins. Should the en.q community start a discussion about opting in, I would support (and I have no COI). --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Global sysops cheapen local adminship, and only in cases of the utmost necessity (e.g. really small wikis) should they be opted-in. I, for one, tend to think that any help fighting vandalism should be welcomed. Unfortunately, judging by recent comments on a local unrelated discussion, we can't even expect stewards to stay neutral, let alone global sysops. There are further problems, related to WQ's specific policies, which I'm not even going to get into. I would like to highlight, though, that the description of global sysops as "''highly trusted users''" should make any thinking person suspicious. Just when did we elect these global sysops? I don't remember voting for any of them myself. Sure, there are some very well-meaning, good users in this group, for example [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|Érico Júnior Wouters]] and [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]]. But I can also see a couple of names I very strongly ''distrust'', of cruel unhelpful people whose apparent job it is to collect hats, and whom I very much doubt would ''ever'' be elected local sysops via normal process. That's my warning, for what it's worth (not much). I think GS should only be opted in after a strong consensus for it amongst our established admins. (I doubt such a consensus will ever be achieved, but who knows.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Global sysopship (along with global rollback and some other global groups) is requested on [[m:SRGP]]. For example, [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_PiRSquared17|my request]], [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_.C3.89rico_J.C3.BAnior_Wouters|Érico]]'s request. Anyone can comment on a candidate. Global sysops ''only ever act'' (in theory) when the request is uncontroversial (such as spam/vandalism) and no local admins are around to deal with it. Does that answer some of your questions? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well, as you know, Meta elections are kind of a joke. People who'd have no chance of being elected admins at Wikipedia again get elected global sysops... And although it is said that if we opt-in, we can then also opt-out, it's more of a one-way street, as I think it would be very difficult to establish a consensus to opt-out afterwards. Obviously global sysops can't be locally desysopped, so we need to be careful. Your description of what they can do seems misleading. It appears to me that global sysops can act without being requested, and they don't just revert obvious vandalism, but also engage in "routine maintenance" (their purpose per policy), which in turn means they, who are not familiar with Wikiquote's policies, may end up deleting pages they shouldn't. And again, it's not as if we can't ask the help of stewards to block vandals in case of emergency. It also seems to me that Wikiquote is actually [[m:Global sysops#Scope|out of scope]] for GS, and I would very much like to hear what our local admins think of this proposal, though I doubt they will be so blunt as me in saying that it threatens Wikiquote's independence. I still think the solution for Wikiquote is through local admins, and if global sysops are so eager to help (*cough*), they can go through the normal process and be elected here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: To clear up a couple misunderstandings:
:::# [[m:Global sysops|Global sysops]] are not elected. They are appointed by Stewards after taking public comment. They serve at the pleasure of the Stewards, assisting with their workload by handling routine tasks that do not require more advanced rights.
:::# Wikiquote is not out of scope. Any project can opt in or opt out: the default described in the policy applies only to projects that do not opt either way.
::: Whether you trust the Stewards to appoint people who can be trusted to respect the bounds of their role, whether you trust the Stewards to step in if someone exceeds those bounds, that is your call. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Global sysops perform routine maintenance. That is their purpose. In practice, this amounts to spam, vandalism/long-term abuse, and noncontroversial routine requests. If enwikiquote is opted in, GS will surely respect local policies, but you can't expect us to read every single wiki's policies before acting. At least I haven't (but I do usually look at the deletion reason dropdown to see if they have a similar "speedy deletion" criterion to what I will use. I almost never block.). Usually the stuff we do is completely noncontroversial, and we tend only to act in emergencies or when local admins are unavailable. [[m:Special:WikiSets/7]]: enwikiquote and plwikiquote are the only Wikiquotes opted out of GS help. Ningauble is correct that any project can opt in or out. The scope on Meta is just the default. Also: being a global sysop is much easier and less complicated than being a local admin on (English or another large) Wikipedia, as you mentioned. Global sysops ''only'' do noncontroversial maintenance tasks, whereas an admin on enwiki is expected to be able to determine consensus, deal with private matters, act in controversial cases or in drama like ANI, etc. In fact becoming a steward might [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chenzw/Reports/Draubb&diff=prev&oldid=7138137 be easier] than having a successful enwiki RfA. Do you think [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Global_permissions&oldid=7271149#Global_sysop_for_JurgenNL this] ongoing RFGS is a joke? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, I'm glad to see two global sysops (Rschen and yourself) admitting that becoming a ''steward'' (=> access to IPs) could be much easier than getting ''adminship'' – good heavens! am I the only one who thinks something is terribly wrong here? If this is true of stewards, it must be even more so of global sysops, and I might add I personally am shocked and offended to see that someone like Rschen is a global sysop. Opting in will be something of a historical moment for WQ, because in truth there is no turning back, even if ''theoretically'' we could opt out again – who would then be willing to oppose global sysops?, how would we ever reach that consensus? In any case, those were just a few observations before our admins gave their opinions, and as they apparently don't seem to mind GS being opted in, it might just be that you'll have your wish. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::If you're going to attack me, at least get my quote right - I said that it is much easier than getting adminship ''on en.wikipedia''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Not sure, who "attacks" who. I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Daniel_Tom%C3%A9&diff=559458856&oldid=559445353 this]. Pretending that a public rename is a sock, just to defame my real name, that seems to me much more of an "attack" than my saying I am offended that you are are in any position of responsibility. I see you keep trying to collect hats, and that after recently failing to get CU on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get ''stewardship'' at Meta. What a disgrace. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Who is attacking who is you. What Rschen did at that particular diff is standard practise at enwiki, if a user is deemed a sock, they are tagged. The fact the account existed even a rename means the account exists ergo, a sockpuppet. The fact Rschen failed to get CU is like me failing to get rollback here and then asking for Bureaucrat at Wikidata, they have 0% relation. Also your description of Rschen actually willing to help out Wikimedia is the disgrace here. Good faith volunteers deserve credit, not defamatory comments. Now that is said, get back to doing something constructive unlike we've seen at metawiki. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: The guy who admits to never editing articles tells me to go do "something constructive". Why do you show up here, just to share your ignorance on the difference between socks and public renames? I challenge ''you'' to try and make a single edit to an article before commenting here again and embarrassing yourself further. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Whether I edit articles now or not is '''my''' choice. Nothing for you to comment on simply because you're losing the 'but mom, Rschen is the one being mean!' battle. Oh and yes, maybe I don't edit articles but hey, I am constructive. I do SWMT work, did a month of administrator work at a small wiki and do some-what active work on Wikidata. And on enwiki, I active help new users get accounts. See, I give people accounts not create them for myself and then abuse them. Now, as I said, be constructive anyway you want except through derogatory comment at Rschen and arguing about how people follow polices when dealing with clearly abusive users. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: You still haven't made even 1 edit to articles, and most likely never will. Calling me abusive doesn't count as an article edit. You have nothing to contribute to Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why don't '''both''' of you stop? Instead of bickering? You guys are acting like children here! I would suggest both of you stop this pointless discussion. Wikiquote's Village Pump is not for both of you to bicker about pointless stuff. I expect better from both of you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:35, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Just shut up about god damn editing of articles. I am not violating policies by not doing it. Last comment here. Future comments I'd like at my talk page. If not, I'll just move them over. Peace. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Did I hit a nerve? Do you feel embarrassed for never editing articles? I certainly would. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
* I would not be averse to opting in. Having been unable to give as much time to Wikiquote myself in recent months as in previous years, no longer being able to review the entire RC log every day, I have a sense that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
*: ''Non sequitur'', as global sysops can ''already'' patrol recent changes, just like any other user; problem is, most of them ''just don't bother to'', and this is very unlikely to change even if we opt-in. (What would change is, someone who already patrols recent changes could notify them at Meta of vandal attacks, and they would then be able to step in and block the vandals. But if you think that global sysops are going to start magically reviewing every change to articles once they are opted-in, you are just fooling yourself.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*:: What follows from my observation is that I believe a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, more things than when I was patrolling more. I did not say, and it does not follow (''non sequitur'') that global sysops would patrol in the manner that I used to do, nor that nothing would slip through the cracks. Things have always slipped through the cracks anyway. What would follow is more [[w:Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates#Popular culture: the legend of the boy and the dike|little Dutch boys]] plugging more of the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*::I'm sure [[m:SWMT]] will monitor enwikiquote, if it doesn't already. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
*:::It does since yesterday (a contributor from this wiki requested it to be added on IRC). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
* I agree. I think the benefits of having off-project admins able to step in and stop vandalism outweigh any downside. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*: These global sysops can already revert vandalism, they just don't do it, because they don't patrol WQ's recent changes. They would only be of help in case someone who does patrol it should ask them to block rampant vandals. But for this there already are stewards, who are more in number than global sysops. Opting in will be a historically bad decision. WQ is almost the only wiki standing independent, like a diamond in the desert, but you seem to be willing to trade its independence for nothing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*Agree with these comments by {{u|Ningauble}} and {{u|BD2412}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to close this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
* Late here, but I'm also in support of opting in here.  [[User:Hazard-SJ|Hazard]] [[User talk:Hazard-SJ|SJ]]  20:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am not adamantly hostile to the idea, but I really have not as yet examined the issues involved much, and certainly would not wish to rush into opting in. As there is at least one prominent editor who I generally respect who seems adamantly opposed, I remain reluctant to support it at this point. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*:That's fine, take your time. There's no rush to decide whether you want GS or not, obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone else would comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

* In the light of the recent events concerning the request to a global block, I am far from convinced that global sysops and their supporters can overcome the cultural differences. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Global sysops have nothing to do with global blocking or locking. That is a steward thing. Yes, stewards and global sysops have some things in common, but really there is a huge difference. However, I can see how this would change your opinion of Meta, cross-wiki maintenance, etc. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
* I personally don't feel this wiki has a need for a GS opt-in and looking at [[Special:ActiveUsers]] I would rather refuse to perform any actions here. Unless the community wants the GS to play a significant role in countervandalism work (which I don't expect) I am not supporting any movement towards an opt-in. Please also note my COI in this case. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Thanks for your comments, Vogone. I would generally agree, except in cases where a vandal is around when no admins are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
As a strong believer in democracy, and in the independence of each wiki, I would like to urge everyone again to be extra careful here. Many people try to interfere with wiki processes and decision making in ways we are not (and can't even be) aware of. If you want an example, see [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34220 this leaked discussion] of ArbCom, and read what they say about Wikiquote. This has happened before, and will happen again, sooner or later. Everyone has their own interests in mind, which is fine, but ''we'' responsible Wikiquote editors should resist and not give away power to outsiders needlessly, and do our best to keep the Wikiquote project as independent as possible. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*::Being a global sysop is completely different from being on the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. Global sysops only deal with spam (including spambots, linkspam, etc.) and vandalism. I do not know exactly what made Barras start this discussion, but please note that nobody is trying to force this on you. If you decide against it, that's fine, but GS are experienced and willing to help with tasks that most would find tedious. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
*Would a local admin like to review the discussion above? Once that happens, if there is consensus to opt-in, stewards can remove enwq from the opt-out list. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 07:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
*:Bump. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 12:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
*::[[User:Mdd|Mdd]]: update? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
*:::@PiRSquared. I think Wikiquote will benefit from Global sysops's the most, if the most active users and local sysops's here see the need, and would welcome this initiative. At the moment only half of them do, and the other half have some kind of doubt. When it comes to granting administrator rights here on Wikiquote, there must be more consensus to do so.
*:::Now in the first comment here Barras explained "Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed". Frankly I don't see this discussion as a vote. I am used (at the Dutch Wikipedia), that before some kind of vote started, there first must be an announcement at the Village pump; And I have more or less considered this discussion as such an announcement. Shouldn't a real vote be held at a page, such as [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]], during a limited period? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::::As far as I see it, only clear consensus in favour of opting in to GS needs to be provided. Which process the community undergoes to reach that is probably irrelevant to the stewards and at the discretion of the local community. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 19:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:::::Let it be clear, that the vote Barras suggested hasn't taken place; In such a situation it would be not appropriate to let a local administrator review this discussion, as Ajraddatz suggested. There is in my opinion no clear consensus about either the procedure, either about the subject to opt-in the Global sysops here. Let it also be clear that only a handful of active Wikiquote users have participated in this matter. In order to get more clearance, and a larger participation I propose to start a vote at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] for a period of a week, which can be accepted when 75% of the participants agree. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
[[File:Piazza del Plebiscito - Augusto De Luca.jpg|frameless|right]]
Another argument against opting-in: global sysops have recently been deleting a userpage by a user, consisting of a simple picture (right), on hundreds of wikis, claiming it is spam. Here too, the userpage was tagged for deletion, by a global sysop [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Augusto_De_Luca&diff=1701918&oldid=1700992], with the rationale: "crosswiki spam". The speedy deletion was declined, replace by a Prod, and now a [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca|VfD]] is taking place. I predict the page will eventually be deleted. But then, you ask, wasn't tagging the page, suggesting that it be deleted, proper after all? Yes, it was. Then what is the problem? The problem, you see, is that it was only tagged, and not outright deleted, because global sysops are not opted in here. (I say, we should keep it that way.) Each community should be allowed to weigh in, and decide for themselves what to do in cases like this... ''roar''... ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Global sysops usually don't delete pages on wikis with local active sysops even if the wikis are opted-in. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 11:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*[[User:Barras]]: as stated by [[User:Mdd]]. No. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Admin nomination of Kalki ==

As some are aware, I was once an admin here (from 29 January 2004 to 1 December 2009), and I have now nominated myself to regain adminship at '''[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship‎‎ |Requests for adminship‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

----

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] states that "Adminship nominations must be posted for '''at least one week''', to provide opportunity for comments and voting, before a bureaucrat will make the promotion if warranted". This sets a minimum time but not a maximum. We have routinely allowed these discussions to stay open for longer times, to allow the community the greatest opportunity to find and weigh in on the discussion (see, e.g., [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Mdd]]). Indeed, since your request for closure, an additional opinion has been offered which has changed the proportion of support from 66.7% to 60%. I would give it a few more days. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, sounds good. Thank you, {{u|BD2412}}, I'll defer to your judgement. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== User Creation Logs ==

We need an active sysop to block the recent account creations. Since YODO was blocked, we have been getting some recent vandals here. Any opinions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yeah, there's definitely a vandal/sock attack currently. I'm watching and can get stewards if needed. Maybe [[User:Jni]] could help...? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[User:Mdd|Mdd]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::And thank you both. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'll be online for next couple hours and can help with pest control for sure! I was tracing one sock/vandal from en-wp to here in fact. I've been mostly inactive for few years so please tell me if I do something stupid with the admin tools. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I am thinking about adding a template where we can place it on a user talk page saying that their name is not appropriate for wikiquote. But we need a sysop to block the inappropriate username. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions ==

Anyone can contribute to [[User:Goldenburg111/Wikiquote in 2014]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
: The page says "This page is to document issues with Wikiquote since January 1, 2014." What kind of issues? I for one think that we need a complete top down reimagining of the software, so that quotes can be sorted by every kind of data (topic, author, date, kind of work, etc.). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Issues = Sockpuppetry, canvassing by Cirt at Meta, causing drama and disruption. Different sockpuppeters and new accounts made for vandalism. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::: It's your userspace, you're free to do as you will with it. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment:''' I understand that Kalki and I have had disagreements over interpretations of his behavior patterns in the past. For this reason after much thought I've decided not to comment further upon the ongoing RFA. I'll instead respectfully defer to the community in the discussion there. Have a great day, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::: While it's your userspace, you can collect notes of that nature there if want to, but is it really that constructive activity? Sounds like stirring more drama and disruption. Sockpuppet notice board might be useful though, especially tracking for cross-wiki sockpuppeteers. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 10:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thank you jni for clarifying, is it okay to add notes about main points instead of specific users being "called out"? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is certainly better than calling out individual users. But I'd avoid even creating such a page in first place. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think there is any policy forbidding user's maintaining bulletin/notice board kind of pages in their user space (and I'd hate bureaucrazy like that here). [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 15:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Citation error ==

Hey, I've got no idea what's wrong with the citations over at [[Stephenie LaGrossa]]. All I did was copy it over from Wikipedia. Is citation style different here? [[User:Survivorfan1995|Survivorfan1995]] ([[User talk:Survivorfan1995|talk]]) 18:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hi. You forgot to add <nowiki><references/></nowiki>, but in any case Wikiquote's [[Wikiquote:Templates#Formatting guidelines|formatting guidelines]] are a bit different than those of Wikipedia, so I've re-formatted the article accordingly. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

== Activist group public relations announcement being put forward as a 'quote' ==

As shown in [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Abortion&diff=0&oldid=1674179 this edit], an IP editor is repeatedly inserting an announcement by an anti-abortion activist organization, an announcement that is not notable, nor is it traceable to a single person. As such, I don't think it can be called a quote. This IP editor has in the past repeatedly tussled with me over the attribution of abortion quotes, challenging the findings of Ann D. Gordon who is the top scholar on Susan B. Anthony's life. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== WikiProject Name Confusion ==

Hi Wikiquote and all of it's fellow members! I am thinking about a Wikiquote WikiProject. I want to create a wikiproject that encourages users to clean up at least one article in a week. In a few months, the cleanup categories would be blank! I am still struggling on the name of the project. Any suggestions for the name? Or any suggestion on the Project itself? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:How about WikiProject Weekly Cleanup? Direct and to the point. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks BD2 for your suggestions. I think that's a good name. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's one as well WikiProject: Article Cleanup project? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] 22:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: I think we've preferred to call them pages rather than articles here (to contrast with Wikipedia's "article" space and Wiktionary's "entry" space). Come to think of it, we really don't have the tradition of WikiProjects here that Wikipedia does, although we could surely use some. For example, we could coordinate with [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Law|WikiProject Law]] and [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine|WikiProject Medicine]] to improve our pages covering these specific fields. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I bet this one would benefit Wikiquote easily. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]] ==

You may feel free to join! Any suggestions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom]] ==
Hello, per [[m:Global bans]], a general requirement of a global bans request for comment is notify all projects where the user subject to the ban has editied. DanielTom is either an active editor or a past editor of this wiki and therefore I am notifying the project of this proposal. Everyone is welcome to go and voice their opinion of the proposal and about the user in general. Thanks, [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:Global bans can create serious consequences, I'd urge users to look at this ban proposal. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I have left my own comment of opposition to [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom|this '''''there''''']], and like '''Abd''' have requested a speedy dismissal of this as a quite unwarranted request. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Reading distorted descriptions of yourself painted in the worst possible light can be slightly amusing, or extremely depressing, considering how other people might take this garbage seriously. If anything, this shows how extremely unwise it is to edit under anything close to your real name, though I'm sure most people here don't need to be reminded of that. Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented there, I appreciate it. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
: I am glad to see you're back and this particular nonsense has ended. I would advise remaining ''cautious'' though. I, for years, have put up with some nonsense which in some ways has not been quite that immediately consequential — and am willing to continue to do so, with confidence that when truths are sufficiently assessed, whatever the faults or deficiencies I might have inadvertently manifested in the courses of events will clearly be perceived to not be the most grievous ones. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
* I am glad the ban request was quickly withdrawn before I wasted any time drafting an explanation of why it was a mistake. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am also glad, that this ban request is withdrawn. It would be nice if these past events would be resolved instead of keep coming back. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

== Main Page Images ==

The average number of images per quote of the day has gotten quite high, with there being 10 separate images on January 30 (which were, to this user, very difficult to look at). Was there ever a consensus reached about the number/size/quality of images on the main page, and if so, is it being followed? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
: Extensive discussion in 2011–2012 reached an apparent consensus that this is too much, but not how much is ok. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_35#Images_on_Main_Page] [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_36#Main_Page_and_images]) This nonspecific consensus was enforced for a time by removing ''all'' images pending adoption of a specific policy. Images returned to the main page just under a year ago, without any policy or guideline, and attempts to moderate their quantity have been reverted. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Wikiquote:Quote_of_the_day.2FApril_2013_-_lay_out]) In short: (1) no, there is no express consensus for what should be included, and (2) no, consensus for what should not be included, vague though it be, is not being followed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' I do not think the attempts to moderate the quantity of images on the Main Page should have been reverted. It is quite frustrating to see a community consensus summarily reverted and arbitrarily ignored. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I have followed the discussion on and off for the past few years, and I understand the two sides - that there is a consensus, and there is a very active minority that doesn't care for that consensus. Can we (well, you, since I'm not qualified) actually create a policy that reflects the consensus, or at the very least limits the number/size/quality of images (say, one on each side and a small one above and below, which, though still excessive, at least leaves the front page readable)? Or, alternatively, is it not even worth it? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 19:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::I echo the concerns of {{user|132.177.170.36}} and agree with the comments made here. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
----
I find the comments on this issue in this section rather misleading in various ways, but especially reject the implied assertions that any actual wide ranging consensus was arrived at after any substantial or extensive periods of active debate, despite the periods of months or years during which these contentions have sometimes VERY briefly occurred, and gone largely ignored by others, either unaware of them, or too disinterested or intimidated by the intensity of opinions to get involved.

Though sometimes I can do some rather quickly, It often takes much work and considerable effort and thought to produce a good layout, and I confess I do not always succeed to my own satisfaction with the materials available, but for many years I have done what I could with the quotes available here and the images available at the commons, and I believe that this service is a generally valued and appreciated one, based upon the comments of people with as yet little or no personal involvement here in the issue.

On 31 January 2012, there was an act of aggressive and arrogant '''''[[censorship]]''''' which was suddenly imposed by one admin who I believe simply sensed an opportunity to further harass and constrain my activities here with but little complaint likely from others most actively involved in these matters at the time. Clearly without much regard for permitting any further discussions, and inclined to take the most radically severe steps available, he decided to destructively edit what I believe was a quite good and relevant layout for February 3, a few minutes after I posted it:
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:DonMcLeanWestport2009.jpg|222px]] [[Image:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:SépultureCathelineau.JPG|121px]] ''I went down to the [[Holiness|sacred]] store Where I'd heard the [[music]] years before But the [[man]] there said the music wouldn't play And in the streets the [[children]] screamed The [[Love|lovers]] cried and the [[poets]] [[Dreams|dreamed]] But not a [[Words|word]] was [[Speaking|spoken]] The [[church]] [[bells]] all were broken And the three men I [[Admiration|admire]] most [[w:American Pie (song)|The Father, Son and Holy Ghost]] They caught the last [[Trains|train]] for the coast [[w:The Day the Music Died|The Day the Music Died]].'' ~ [[Don McLean]] ~ [[File:HollyMonument.jpg|121px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Buddy holly.jpg|234px]] [[File:American apple pie.jpg|234px]]
|}

'''After this edit ONLY the text remained, and ''none'' of the relevant imagery, which I had chosen to honor these artists and to commemorate some of the themes and ideas of their music.''' I myself, if I remember correctly, was in a hurry, and unable to edit it further, and had to leave soon after that.

I am able and willing to work with anyone, but I do anger somewhat at what I perceive to be various forms of injustice and hypocrisy which do arise all to frequently where people are not confronted with each other in face to face dialogue, and many rules can be rather extravagantly grown and even more extravagantly ignored or dismissed while some of the most aggressively denigrative of people are focussing upon and magnifying the relatively minor breaches of rules or merely expectations which others make.

This led to my DISGUST at the foully presumptive forms of impulses towards what I believe to be improper censorship and constraints which were becoming far more evident and boldly practiced on this site, which was founded and had existed for years quite uncontroversially as a wiki with acceptance of MAXIMAL freedoms of editors and MINIMAL rule by any officials, and led to my decision not to even bother adding them for at least a few days or weeks, when I believed I might have more time to address some of the precise quantitative restrictions which were being proposed in regard to various rather nebulous qualitative issues.

Further acts of abusive destruction occurred so regularly in the period after that, It was actually over a year, before I began adding images to the QOTD again partially in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 2013|March 2013]], and fully in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/April 2013|April]], [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/May 2013|May]], and ever since then, and once again, received more compliments than complaints, but those few who seem eager and willing to oppose these layouts have again banded together, while those who are not involved and perhaps do not wish to be involved in such contentious matters have remained unaware or uninvolved, as is their right.

Though I can honestly recognize that the layouts are not always so well developed or well honed as further time might permit, and I myself would have simplified some of them, but certainly not merely to decrease their visual size, had I had more time to consider things.

I also believe that over the years I have certainly received ''FAR more'' compliments both publicly and in private for my graphic presentations than complaints about them, despite the relatively few disparaging remarks a year that have arisen here because of them, and which have often been seized upon by those very little involvement here generally beyond supporting the constraints of others, and who seem most zealous to find ways to rigorously constrain and suppress some forms of presentation options.

I believe that there are now attempts by those who are often involved in little more than devising constraints and rules to bind others in such ways as they themselves would not find binding or uncomfortable at all to group together and impose their will suddenly and vigorously, as has sometimes occurred in the past.

'''This issue as well as others are some I believe should be elaborated upon more extensively in the coming weeks and months, and sufficient time for arguments to be presented and considered, and matters settled with more widespread involvement.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

: Kalki, to me, those pictures of american pies have too bright a color—they really do distract one's attention from the quote. And this is Wiki''quote''. All I can say, regarding this issue, is that ''I'' personally would do the QOTD layout differently, with fewer and smaller pictures, and more emphasis on the quote (incl. source). But Kalki has been the only one doing the QOTDs, for many years, and of course he is doing what looks ''to him'' the best. I don't think it's possible to convince Kalki that he is "wrong". ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I am still around, but quite later than I planned to be at getting started on several things elsewhere, and just briefly noting that I do believe matters can and should be more elaborately discussed, and in my relatively few contentions with people on what the best images available for pages have been, have always been willing to reach acceptable compromises or agreements, where alternatives are presented, but I believe efforts to rigorously constrain or entirely eliminate the use of imagery are very detrimental for many reasons, and I am willing to specify many reasons why later. I ''must'' get going now. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I hardly recognized Don McLean - I think Kalki does brilliant work and the images draw my eye to the word content -clumsily put, I mean draw mw to the whole thing, so the words get read - still I suppose there were iconoclasts who went round smashing in stained glass windows - some people seem puritan by nature and theres probably no pleasing them. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I thank you much for your appreciation. And I would note that I do believe images always serve as windows to a far more expansive range of ideas than text quotes alone usually do, and that is one of many reasons I believe them desirable. And I know that I am not alone in referring to photographs and graphic art works as "visual quotation" though the concept apparently remains unfamiliar to most. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
: There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum. I look forward to the actual exercise of Kalki's professed ability and willingness to work with anyone on this issue, so that a meaningful compromise may be found between [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1405414 no images at all] and [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=1580787 overwhelming that which is ostensibly being presented]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::''[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1678350&oldid=1678327 "There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum."]''. I for one strongly agree with these comments by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
[[File:N3 Etech05 Larry.jpg|thumb|It's a bumper sticker culture. People have to get it like that, and if they don't, if it takes three seconds to make them [[understand]], you're off their radar screen. ~ [[Larry Lessig]] ]]
::: Oh, my sometimes obviously passionate intensity in asserting honest opinions as effectively as I can against what I perceive to be various forms of error, false suppositions, or deliberate deceits can sometimes be very intimidating I suppose, but there obviously is no way that there is any attempt to intimidate in what an official admin might declare in imperious tones of condescension of apparently "Authoritative Objectivity" to anyone who disagrees with their own particular ranges of opinion or will. Seconded by another "admin" who in my honest opinion relies upon various forms of flattery and intimidation to retain what prestige, position and power he has attained. "Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum." That surely is PURELY objective and neutral assertion, simply asserted against the uncivil act of anyone arguing extensively against any one else's position — it seems no one could even conceivably or rationally disagree with that. ''Sarcasm intended here'' — yet I hope some of my silliness in presenting these sincere observations can be forgiven, as I forgive others for sometimes being so damned imperiously somber and officiously censorious about things. '''I generally like people, even many of those who often strongly disagree with me, and I like there being a variety of ideas and attitudes available to people — and as most artists would assert, images provide ways to introduce some of these to people in ways that would otherwise not occur.'''
::: That there actually might be people who find things more interesting with some indications of aspects of the quote they might not have known about or considered through the use of imagery, is something to be dismissed as mere "distraction" and promotion of "distraction", and such arguments merely "digression" from such hard and fast rules as some people wish to establish in a project that was created as one of many with implicit and sometimes EXPLICIT directives to avoid the hang-ups of having too many hard and fast rules — which the wise know can often be abused by people very casually in very many ways, against which most people often have little recourse.
::: '''I quote [[Larry Lessig]] with an image to emphasize that imagery IS useful in drawing people to contemplate the quote associated with the imagery, in ways text alone would NOT.''' As to compromises, I will try to refrain from more than 4 or 5 images, when there is no need for them to frame the text: there are generally 4 regions on the QOTD layout where images can be presented. I usually, but not always, attempt to use all of these to at least some extent, though until recently I usually preferred rather minor images above and below the quote, and I admit that sometimes I clearly have overdone things in ways that are not the best aesthetic arrangements possible. Usually that was because I was trying to present significant ideas which were relevant to the quote being used, or simply significant images of the author of the statement or its subject. I believe 2 good solid blocks of imagery to either side is usually desirable, and can accept that I should not attempt to put too many images in the layout, merely to present ideas present or implied in the quotes; but on larger quotes especially more than one image to either side is sometimes necessary to properly frame the entire text, and on smaller quotes images to the top and bottom allow the text to be framed in such a way as draws one's attention to it further, in ways that would not exist without some imagery. I believe there should always be a minimum of two images, and a maximum of 4 regions of imagery, generally not to exceed 50% of the area of main page, and preferably less than an third of it, even though absolute rules on that would make me uncomfortable. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::(I'm the topic starter; I just registered my account.) What I'm getting from this discussion is that essentially we have no choice but to hope Kalki keeps things under control, then? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 14:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Though we obviously differ strongly in our opinions on this matter, I thank you for creating an account here, and welcome you as a participant. I would certainly phrase things differently, and assert rather bluntly, that in accord with the principles with which Wiki software and Wikimedia projects were founded and developed: '''I seek to keep things from being under too much needless or detrimental "control" by ''anyone'', including myself.''' I have certainly NOT sought to exert any extraordinary ''control'' of things which I am not actively involved in as a regularly concerned ''participant'', here or anywhere, and seek to rigorously control nothing so much as ''my own actions'', rather than that of others. '''Usually I have sought to find ways, through various venues, including this one, to INDICATE diverse views on Truth and Beauty, Meaning and Purpose, and not merely those I myself find most valid or appealing, though, like most people, I generally would favor these.''' I believe that IF things are perceptively reviewed without the prejudices of presuming things have to be under some sort of absolutist controls, by people assuming or wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY, I have persistently sought to keep many things from becoming rigorously controlled by such impulses, all of my life. And '''I did not seek to ''establish'' such principles of behavior here — the wiki software and the wiki projects were ''already'' quite ''explicitly'' established with such aims and procedures in mind''' — I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as I do not believe proper, in either rational or ethical senses. I believe that even if sometimes they are manifest in mild forms, there are many ways the impulses to overly control things have been detrimental in far more ways than are apparent by the casual examinations of those who out of fears, hatreds, resentments or merely minor irritation, are most inclined to find ways to absolutely judge, condemn and punish others are likely to practice, and which require the more extensive examination of those who are more tolerant, patient, and willing to forgive error, without needlessly punishing it, and prone to let many diverse forms of participation in presentations arise. I have just now created a page for '''[[Solomon Asch]]''', to accompany one I have started on '''[[Philip Zimbardo]]''', and one I have helped develop on '''[[Stanley Milgram]]''', each of whom have contributed major insights into social psychology and the various ways group pressures can often corrupt moral assessments and rational competence, and have helped develop general ideas of the cognition necessary for recognizing and combatting '''[[Groupthink]]''' excesses of control over individual volition and choices. I would recommend them to anyone interested in reviewing some of the fundamentals of social psychology. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks

::::::You claim to act against people "wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY" but then later say "I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as *I DO NOT BELIEVE PROPER*" (emphasis mine that time). You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others. Once you start acting upon what you do and do not believe proper, consensus becomes irrelevant. This is no longer a collaborative project, but one that is based on your whims and desires.

::::::I ask everyone: should it be the latter? And if not, what can we do about it? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Again, quite frankly — I quite ''honestly'' state that I, like everyone, act for the most part on my beliefs and impressions, rather than try to pretend to anyone that such a path is simply "horrific" and intolerable — and as I have indicated many times, I try to keep my beliefs reasonable and in maximal harmony with verifiable [[Truths]], the vital virtues of [[Humility]], [[Courage]], [[Honesty]] and [[Compassion]] and principles of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]], and to the extent any "collective" or "individual" opposes these, and insists on absolute conformity in ways that are not innately necessary, I believe that to be an error of the type I have been inclined to label foully fascist, arrogant, tyrannical, and terroristic since I was a very young child. I can forgive people for doing such things, but I do not provide them my willing consent or approval, and if I can find ways of doing so, I seek to find ways to help people rise out of such errors and embrace paths of greater grace, and genuine harmony which only can come about by respect for eternal and enduring truths rather than either collective or individual wills as to how to characterize or serve such truths. I believe you obviously did not look at some of the suggested pages, or if you did, did not understand the statements that indicate where people passionately forbid certain forms of independence because "consensus becomes irrelevant " they are espousing views where '''''truth''''' and genuine rationality and morality quite often become irrelevant, in deference to force of "the collective". That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''." ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:::: In answer to the question above, "What can we do about it?" - It seems clear that nothing can be done about it. The visual appearance of the project is effectively under the control of one editor and there is no prospect that this situation will ever change. It's a remarkable and I think unprecedented situation in the Wiki-related universe. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::::Kalki said: That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''."

::::No, instead Kalki's particular interpretation of "truth" is always right. I have to sadly agree with the above, that as long as Kalki is allowed to define what is right, and is allowed to discount every other opinion because it does not fit "truth," "rationality," or "morality," this project is hopeless. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 21:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing prevents Macspaunday, or you, or anyone else, from working on it, selecting and creating a QOTD every single day, the way you see fit. I don't think Kalki could, or would, revert your efforts. But it would be a lot of work. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: '''Actually, it is not entirely true that they are free to do whatever they see fit; I myself am not entirely free to do entirely as I see fit, in all regards, and do not wish to be.''' While still an admin and a long admired one, I constrained myself and the selection processes to its current procedures, gradually over time, to allow maximum input in selections of QOTD from all who wished to be involved, and though there are currently very few who regularly participate now, Zarbon, for one, was once a frequent opponent in debates over which quotes should be selected, and he was actually quite effective in getting his way much of the time, but not so much of it as he might have wished.
:::::: In regard to larger issues: '''I quite often keep MANY of my opinions and many aspects of my knowledge reserved from overt presentation, yet sometimes I choose not to remain quiet about long constrained perspectives that indicate what I perceive of some of the deficiencies and flaws in the arguments and strategies of others. '''I might often out of convenience or necessity refrain from revealing some truths, but I certainly do not go about attempting to obscure truths on vitally important matters and principles, nor silence others from indicating their opinions of them, and when people do resort to attempting to do so in various ways, out of various irritations with the views of others, and my own or others arguments or tenacity in not bowing abjectly to theirs, '''I do not always "politely" defer to simply accepting their particular opinions or rather crude attempts to distort or defame mine or those of others, such as have most actively created and built these projects, rather than simply control what others can do.''' I know some people wish to try to make that seem "unconscionably" rude, but so be it. I state my case as ably as I believe proper and necessary, and let others state theirs. I have been doing the very extensive and occasionally contentious work for years, amidst some frustratations, but with general approval, and a few others seek to occasionally frustrate and absolutely constrain my assessments of what presentations would be optimal to what theirs would be, simply because thus far, a very few people band together, with assumptions they speak for a majority of others, to say they don't understand, don't accept and don't desire my contributions. '''Even though, throughout the years, I have had ''FAR more'' people I find far more generally respectable, say that they value them, I realize that such groups joined in their avid hostilities can indeed be a threat to many generally desirable liberties and freedoms — and such people often do get quite irate and intolerant of others rights when they are not abjectly obeyed.''' I am a person who has had my life genuinely threatened in literal ways, and not been cowed by such arrogance, nor deterred in seeking to protect the rights of myself and others; I am not prone to submit without need to those who seem adamant in their desires that excessive forms of constraint and command over the rights and liberties of others be accepted and deferred to, apparently without question nor even vigorous counter-arguments. — that's about all I can say right now, as I have to attend to some matters because I must be leaving soon, at least briefly. ''[[Blessings]] to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Can we step back from discussion of process, philosophy, and personality for a moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which was '''Main Page Images''' and, specifically, the quantity thereof? In particular, I would like to explore two specific points in the last paragraph of Kalki's post on 5 February 2014 at 18:53, beginning at the phrase "As to compromises", regarding ''necessity'' and ''proportion'' these images.
::# I don't think it has been demonstrated that it is ''necessary to frame the entire text'' of the QotD with images. When I first joined Wikiquote some years back the quote of the day was accompanied by one small image on the main page. It was framed by a colored box with a header and footer. I do not recall any great hue and cry, or any comment at all, about the lack of a ''necessary frame of images'' boxing the quote. If one were designing the main page from scratch, one might begin by listing possible features and classifying them as either vitally necessary, highly desirable, or wish-list items. I think including a quote of the day would rank quite high and adding an image would be very desirable but, in my opinion, including a montage of images would have little or no priority for the main landing page of a site devoted to quotations. I would certainly recommend against using a "frame" that dominates the entire page, which brings up the second point...
::# Devoting ''up to 50% of the page'' to this material is, in my opinion, completely out of proportion to other priorities for space on the project's main public portal. As remarked in an earlier discussion, it pushes everything else but the masthead below the fold. Even a third of the page strikes me as a disproportionate allocation among main elements of the page:
::::* Masthead
::::* Quote of the day
::::* Selected pages
::::* New pages
::::* Main categories
::::* Community
::::* Sister projects
::::* Other languages
:::: I suggest we consider illustrating the presentation of the quote of the day in proportion to that which is ostensibly being presented:  I think allocating ''one third of the QotD block'' to illustration would be a more appropriate upper limit than a third or a half of the entire page.
::: I welcome the thoughts and opinions of other contributors about what is necessary and what is proportionate for Wikiquote's main landing page. (I don't think discussion of process, philosophy, and personality is going to shed much light on those issues.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I know that very few things are "necessary" to accept as "necessary" in any absolute sense, but do believe that framing the text with image fields is quite aesthetically appealing to ''most'' people, and ''thus'' highly desirable for presentations. '''The ''only'' things which regularly change on the main page here are the QOTD and the New page listings which are directly below it, and so I do not think that it remaining a prominent portion of the page, actually less than 25% of the page in most cases, I believe, is at all undesirable for a primary presentation page.''' The other sections are certainly not all that less convenient to access, to anyone but those with very slow connections. Though I am doing some things out of consideration for those in such circumstances, such as stripping out most px specs and reducing the use of animations on pages, I have stated before I don't believe that those who still have such should be a primary constraint on the development of any of our wiki pages. I do believe that if their problems are extreme enough, they should simply shut off image displays on their primary browser, or use an alternate browser where such settings are used. I believe that reducing the size of the images, relative to the size of the quote, or to one third of the QOTD is a rather crude and extreme measure to simply minimize the size of images, the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds, which are increasingly uncommon among most users, and generally not accommodated as a primary concern at most sites on the internet, ''including'' Wikimedia ones. '''As I have previously stated, it is quite standard to get pages with well over a hundred images at the much more commonly visited Wikimedia commons.''' As usual, I am quite willing to honor general provisions which can be arrived at, but do not generally support creating overly detailed nor overly absolute constraints on any matters, in accord with the principles of innovation and adaptation with which the Wikis were founded. I believe a general agreement to keep the images proportional to the page, and usually less than 30% is a reasonable one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::: It's not about page loading time, it's about screen real estate on the main page. It is not a case of "the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds". The reasons given are pushing everything else below the fold, and proportion to relevance for the purpose of a home page. I think you are mistaken in considering the main page "a primary presentation page":  The home page is primarily a ''portal to the project''. Compare the ''[[commons:|home page]]'' of the Wikimedia Commons project to which you refer:  it has ''two'' pictures (one static and one media file), each of which is the focus of a dedicated section. (It also uses a few iconographic links, as does ours.) Of course a project that is primarily a repository of images and media files has many pages with many more images, but not on its main portal page – this example does not support your argument. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: We are all involved to varying degrees in various forms of presentations. I believe the people who normally are involved with the main page layout for the commons do a fine job, and generally understand that graphic layouts are important to sparking and developing interests in a broad variety of subjects, people and ideas — as are quotes. I believe that it is widely recognized that quotes used in conjunction with images and visual images in conjunction with text quotes can often do a far better job of generating interest, curiosity, contemplation and exploration than either generally would alone, and that highly formalized constraints on presentations simply limit the varieties of options available in composing such presentations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia's policy on having multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:I briefly posted this on the Administrator's Noticeboard, but realized it should be on this page instead. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I would like to note that the above link states specifically that "Kalki is limited to one account" and that this was an unprecedented restriction here, in reaction to controversies that arose because I had created multiple accounts, and was unapologetic for doing so, and at that time unwilling to state some of the reasons for them, or take issue with the matter, and that I had in fact already agreed to limit myself to editing from one account, and had not and have not in any way attempted to evade that restriction, nor to misuse any of my accounts either before that time or since. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
* '''Oppose (very conditionally)''' : I am quite willing to ''develop'' and largely adopt such rules, within the next month or so, but would much prefer to make some important distinctions which are not evident in this document as it exists in its current state, despite having been gradually evolving or decaying in various stages, for many years, on a far more populated site, since its inception in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry&oldid=2446707 14 February 2004]‎, where it provided little more than a definition and the statement:
:: ''Some folks believe sock puppets suck. Others believe that they are useful, when used for good.''
: I believe there are issues to be raised more explicitly now. There are ALSO significant FACTS related to my own past use of multiple accounts and the reactions of others to them that I wish to be honestly and fairly addressed, and measures taken to rectify the current situation where I believe quite improperly and unjustly, the accounts I was gradually identifying as my own were suddenly defaced with VERY misleading statements which imply that these were merely Sockpuppets and that I had clearly been guilty of improper behavior with them, which I have always asserted was NEVER the case, and certainly never my intentions.
: Though I actually seem to be entering another week or so where I am likely to be more busy than I had thought elsewhere, within the next week or two I would actually like to ''begin'' to present upon my own user pages an accounting of ''some'' of the more significant reasons I created such accounts in the first place — and why I generally object to the pre-emptive suppression of such anonymity as they can afford, and why I object slightly to some of the wording in the current Wikipedia document, though not its general intent. I expect to be very busy on this matter and others in coming week or two, but to all, I send ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: This proposition is not ''ex post facto''; it has nothing to do with your previous accounts, other than your own assertion that Wikiquote has had no policy barring the use of multiple accounts. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: One of the things I would like to address is that the defacement of my multiple account pages as "Sock puppets" was undertaken not merely ''ex post facto'' but without clear community consensus to label them such, largely by one very hostile and very presumptive admin, who on the same page he links to only a portion of, was being declared by others to have acted improperly and in such ways as were clearly against policies. If we are going to adopt a policy regarding multiple accounts, I would like the long-standing injustice of that addressed as well, so that these accounts can be labelled in less presumptive and what I believe to be quite dishonest ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Our adoption of a forward-looking policy should not be contingent on addressing past events not occurring under that policy. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I certainly agree with that, but while discussions are occurring on such matters, I believe it would be proper to take assessments of past incidents, and such facts and opinions as I intend to present, in settling upon any new policies, and the adoption should not be rushed, merely for the convenience of some who might wish to rush such matters, and forego discussions or debates in such ways as I believe would be detrimental in many ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Adopting Wikipedia's policy as it stands could be problematic because it makes reference to entities and procedures for which Wikiquote does not have any local counterpart, e.g. Arbitration Committee and checkuser. Our [[Wikiquote:Username policy#Using multiple user accounts|current policy]] simply says ''"It is recommended that users not edit under multiple usernames, unless they have a very good reason."'' Something more definitive than this would be a good idea, and the Wikipedia policy could be a good starting point. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
*: I have imported the Wikipedia page to [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] and tagged it as an essay for now. We can whittle it down and otherwise adjust it to our local needs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Thanks for that — as I indicated, I am willing to support a slightly revised version of this eventually — but I would expect it to take at least a couple of weeks to establish a viable agreement. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: Of that, I have no doubt. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== WelcomeBot ==

This bot has been beating me with a stick as soon as I looked over this bot's contribution list. WelcomeBot's last edit [[Special:Contributions/WelcomeBot|was in 2008.]] Now, it has been six years (correct me if I am wrong) since this bot has contributed. On other wikis, the bureaucrats would revoke the bot's right due to inactivity. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AWelcomeBot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 See User Rights Log]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Voltairinedecleyre.png]] ==

Since [[:File:VoltairinedeCleyre.jpg]] exists - and is a completely different image - I renamed this. I've also done a restoration. However, a number of the usages here are on protected pages, so can someone replace the usage at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/November 17]] with either:
[[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35) - Original.png]] (unrestored version) or [[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35).jpg]] (restored version)? [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
: The page probably should not have been protected. This is [[w:WP:CASCADE|cascading protection]] from the page [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Display]], which was created in an abortive attempt to [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote_talk:Quote_of_the_day&oldid=1200367 reorganize QotD pages]. As the reorganization appears to have been abandoned and its index does not appear to be used anywhere, I wonder if the page creator, [[User:Cirt|Cirt]], would be amenable to deleting it and the associated [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Links]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I never understood precisely what Cirt was trying to do with these back then, in 2009, but they were entirely his effort, without much regard or consideration of the long standing and enduring QOTD selection, processing and archiving procedures, and all those index pages currently in a format that improperly generalizes them with titles such as "[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1]]" were moved into these titles then, and I believe simply should be moved back to the standard [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1, 2009]] title format for them. I don't understand exactly what is causing the protection problems at this point, having ignored the issue for some time, as one of relatively little significance, but agree the protections should be removed, and the pages restored to their original more standard titles. I just happen to be checking in now, don't have much time, and must be leaving again soon. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Reply:''' I've unprotected both those pages. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== Fair use audio/video clips ==

Hello,

Forgive my naive curiosity, but I wonder why Wikiquote pages never propose audio or video clips for famous quotes in movies, songs or speeches for instance. Since audio clips can be used as "fair use" on Wikipedia (see for instance on [[w:We Are the World #Music and vocal arrangements|"We Are the World"]]), is there anything that prevents Wikiquote contributors to put, say, short audio clips of [[Martin Luther King, Jr. #I Have A Dream (1963)|"I Have A Dream"]]'s finest quotes? or even a video clip of [[Gone with the Wind (film)|''Gone with the Wind'']]'s "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."?

Wouldn't that be "fair use"? wouldn't that be any useful to Wikiquote pages? I mean, lots of quotes from speeches or movies would benefit a lot from a presentation with their voice intonation, or visual context, no?

Thanks for any views on the subject! - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Such media clips can be linked to within pages, if they are available at the commons under an acceptable license, but, of course, simply "fair use" materials are not. Years ago, to avoid duplications, excess, and complicated burdens on a limited staff of regular admins, it was decided at the English Wikiquote to use only media available at the commons. Though it might sometimes be frustrating, I still believe that is probably a good thing, over all, as there are often contentions on even using images available at the commons, as some of the above sections can indicate. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:
::OK, so the English Wikiquote is not opposed to fair use in itself (since, as I understood it on [[Wikiquote:Copyrights]], it is under that very fair use that quotations are put here), but chose to avoid the complexity to manage fair use media files. That answers my primary question, thanks!
::Now, theoretically speaking, would it be feasible? Would it be legal to use excerpts of copyrighted audio or video content, just to display them as quotations from a published work? And if yes, would it be any different if Wikiquote was a for-profit project?
::I'm trying to get a better view of how media excerpts can legally be viewed as "quotations"... (for instance, is there a difference between selling a dictionary of (text) quotations, which seems feasible, and selling a compendium of media quotations?)
::[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 19:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am not familiar with all the technical details of how and why fair use has been defined or limited in various ways, in various contexts, and I am sure that this is a very complex legal matter, to which I make no pretense of having definite or authoritative answers. Good luck in seeking help on this one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::No one here is giving legal advice. I actually think we ''could'' use audio/video clips that are in the public domain, but as to copyrighted material, "fair use" for educational purposes is usually something like (no more than) 5 seconds of a five minute video. (On some pages there are links to Youtube clips, that's much safer, and may work as a solution – though even there caution is required, linking to "illegal" material is of course not permissible.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::I wasn't trying to get legal advice (or any authoritative answer at all), I know [[w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer]] and the like quite well, sorry if that's the impression I gave you. I was simply curious about understanding how this (using media clips under "fair use") applies to Wikiquote, or in general, and I thought that maybe there were contributors here who would have previously dealt with the issue. And that curiosity was only triggered by the fact that, as a reader of Wikiquote, I thought audio/video clips on the pages would have been great, and then I wondered, "wait, maybe it's not possible?". [[File:Face-smile.svg|18px]]
:::::Thank you anyway for your answers. - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 18:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Six pictures for Quote of the day ?!? ==

Does the ''Quote of the day'' really need to have six (6) pictures in it?!?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:It is of course quite possible to indicate ''much'' of how snide and hypocritical a person can be in only 15 words or even fewer, but complexity and intricate sincerity of thought often demands much more than that, and in defense of liberties and generally healthy good humor, I am usually quite prone to provide what I can, when I can, in the hopes that some who are plainly ignorant, confused and intolerant towards the actual or potential capacities of others might eventually become knowledgeable and wise enough to develop a genuine and profound love for the principles of Liberty, rather than merely the sounding of such words as can indicate it among those who are not prone to be insincere and hypocritical. I also hope that those who are often intimidated or merely irritated by the intolerant can learn to laugh at them, even if it must be sardonic laughter, rather than being angry at them, and sometimes thus even slipping into their ranks, and becoming unjustly intolerant of those so ignorant and confused as to be unjustly intolerant, rather than simply and properly and justly intolerant of unjust intolerance itself.

:'''Actually the quote of the day for today has 611 pictures known as "letters" and "punctuation marks" within it. These are arranged in sequences representing 120 vocalizations commonly known as "words" which form phrases and statements of thought.''' Unfortunately many of these are often used by some people with very little actually [[sincerity]], or any profound understanding of principles or concepts, such as those who might regularly use words of praise for [[Freedom of speech]], while often doing so much as they can to effectively constrain and control such speech or indications of ideas as others can make, in extremely intolerant [[absolutist]] ways, which are often dependent upon mechanistic, [[wikt:legalistic|legalistic]] formulas which are often touted as "sensible" or even "necessary" by the unimaginative, to the unimaginative, for the unimaginative. It is often a very easy thing to get the unimaginative to agree that the imaginative should be constrained and controlled by those most eager to constrain and control them. Some might go so far as to stress that MANY of these symbols are actually "redundant" and repetitive — there are only 26 letters, and once of each of these should be enough to indicate all that these images should be construed to indicate — and combing them in various ways lead to such "distractions" as people call "ideas", which are nearly always a threat to powers and prestige of the most vacuous.

:Using my own admittedly limited imaginative capacities to discern that you were probably attempting to criticize the fact that 6 complex images generally referred to as pictures frame the 611-symbol quote of the day, I will address the rhetorical inquiry regarding their necessity. '''Of course, thought itself is perhaps not actually "necessary" thing among many human beings, as many people often make abundantly clear by their regular impulses towards impositions of relatively thoughtless constraints and condemnation of others abilities to indicate or express many forms of thought and thoughtfulness.

:In this particular case, six images were selected to indicate some aspects of the ideas indicated through the QOTD words, or provide images of the person who is being quoted. It certainly could have used more to illustrate its expansive call to praise of humanistic appreciation of life and all that human beings can experience or observe, and a rejection of those primarily dark, ignorant and confused impulses towards denigrative and destructive and even suicidal or murderous attitudes and actions which many of the most ignorant and confused of people often favor or promote.

{|
|&emsp;||
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:Sunrise in Midtown, New York City - January 16, 2013.jpg|222px]] [[File:Zegar słoneczny plac defilad wskazanie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | {{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Arco iris circular.JPG|144px]] Do you have [[doubts]] about [[life]]? Are you unsure if it is really [[worth]] the [[trouble]]? Look at the [[sky]]: that is for you. Look at each [[person]]'s [[face]] as you pass them on the street: those faces are for you. And the street itself, and the ground under the street, and the ball of [[fire]] underneath the ground: [[all]] these things are for you. They are as much for you as they are for other [[people]]. [[Remember]] this when you wake up in the [[morning]] and think you have [[nothing]]. Stand up and face the east. Now [[praise]] the sky and praise the [[light]] within each person under the sky. It's okay to be unsure. But praise, praise, praise.
| author = Miranda July
}} [[File:Double-alaskan-rainbow.jpg|144px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Salutations to the Ganges at sunrise, Varanasi.jpg|201px]] [[File:Miju.jpg|201px]]
|}
|}
:With an emphasis on the worthiness of [[Life]] itself, especially to the extent it promotes [[Liberty]] and [[Justice]] in all vitally important human endeavors, and to further testify of the usefulness of thought, imagination, and images in the use of words and quotes, I will quote a few more extremely worthy statements of worthy principles by worthy minds.

:To quote the current Wikipedia and Wikiquote introduction: [[Censorship]] is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

:Wikis were admirably devised to MINIMIZE the presence of the overly constrained and controlling impulses of groups and individuals most prone to rely upon static and dull understandings and misunderstandings of rules and regulations, and to permit those with most extensive and expansive ideas to have much more opportunity for indicating them and developing them without needless hindrance. Wikis of many types persist in doing so, despite many forms of constraining and corruptive influences, and I trust that they will continue to do so, despite occasional afflictions of short-sightedness, and tendencies towards pre-emptive censorship or limitations on the presentations of ideas.

:* '''The first condition of [[progress]] is the removal of censorship.'''
:** [[George Bernard Shaw]], in his Preface to [[w:Mrs. Warren's Profession|Mrs. Warren's Profession]]''

:* '''Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself.''' It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote our First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from the interference of a policeman's intrusive thumb or a judge's heavy hand.
:** [[Potter Stewart]], in his dissenting opinion in ''Ginzburg et al v. United States'' (1965)

:* Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.
:** [[Ray Bradbury]], in ''Fahrenheit 451'', Coda (1979 edition)

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG|144px]] Our [[liberty]] depends on the [[freedom of the press]], and that cannot be limited without being lost.
| author = Thomas Jefferson
}}
|}

:As I know that not all are inclined to persist in their inclinations to defend liberties where it is obvious there are some groups of people prone to cohere in their opposition to them, those few who do cohere for liberty can sometimes render humanity a valuable service, and I hope that in the times to come, what efforts I have made to help people become more aware and appreciative of the principles of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Joyous Universal Love of ALL will be of great benefit to many, even if many of the ways I have done so remain obscured and unnoticed by most. '''''[[Blessings]]''' to all.'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 06:55, 15 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:I know some indications of the complexities of my own particular thoughts and ideas, and those of others, in promotion of liberty and praise for it and for the presentations of ideas in general can seem "verbose" — but that is one of the burdens of having a relatively complex mind and the will to keep it complexly alert and active. Something which many of the wise throughout the ages have advised, in various ways. I add this little note to provide just a few more refinements of thought and a further quote that addresses one of the tragedies of current times:

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = In a three-minute stretch between [[commercials]], or in seven hundred [[words]], it is [[impossible]] to present unfamiliar [[thoughts]] or surprising conclusions with the [[argument]] and [[evidence]] required to afford them [[credibility]]. Regurgitation of welcome [[pieties]] faces no such [[problem]].
| author = Noam Chomsky
}}
|}

:''So it goes…'' and so much as they ever can … may ''Blessings'' abound. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 07:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:: I like this QOTD layout. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Which? There are two examples of illustrated quotations above (Miranda July and Thomas Jefferson). I prefer the second layout for use on the main page because it doesn't make the QotD box 7–8 times larger (depending on window size) than the QotD itself and push everything else "[[w:below the fold|below the fold]]". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to the QOTD (Miranda July), not the Jefferson quote. [I don't think Kalki posted the latter with the intent of it being a QOTD layout proposal.] There have certainly been some QOTDs that I found too extravagant, or with too many mystical (large) pictures, but in this QOTD the pictures seem comparatively well chosen and pleasant. However, more generally, I agree that the QOTD should preferably have fewer & smaller pictures (otherwise, it gives readers the wrong impression, this wiki is not really about the pictures), and occupy less space, so that for example the suggested articles in the main page could gain more immediate visibility. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

: It does not. But the person who runs this site thinks otherwise, and also equates "criticism of layout decisions" with "censorship." There is nothing anyone can do about it, except avoid the main page entirely. That's easy enough to do with Google, and I would recommend it as a way around the egregious front page. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:: "It does not" seems a rather incoherent statement, along with others less obviously so. ''' No one "runs" this site, and despite the regular efforts of a few people to absolutely constrain and control what ''others'' can do, in ways that defy and betray the very principles of promoting extremely diverse and minimally regulated contributions with which most wikis were founded, it remains, on the whole, only incidentally and probably not permanently corrupted by such efforts.''' And despite the often infantile reactions of people in responding to criticism, I certainly do NOT stupidly assert that criticism of layout decisions amounts to "censorship" — I assert that calls for extreme constraint or ELIMINATION of layout decisions by those most involved in the actual work and consideration of options, by a few people who seem most interested in constraining or eliminating MANY options IS censorship. Such constraints as would ''de facto'' constrain others to the sensibilities or desires of a relatively small group of people who seem very inclined to be critical and intolerant of others ideas, and often quite extremely intolerant and punitive towards criticisms of themselves and their ideas. And indeed if such people find the layouts which others have acclaimed so intolerable, they are more than welcome to do as they will and avoid looking at them at all, and avoid considering any ideas or presentations save those they find most comfortable and consoling to their ''precious'' little minds and forms of mindfulness. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I realized afterwards that your lead statement "It does not" probably refers to the leading question presented by the creator of this section, which pretty much ignores all the extensive material added afterward. If one can overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent, and mattered not at all, congratulations of a sort: I have little doubt that you will be able to succeed in keeping your mind "pure and undefiled" by any "alien" ideas such as I or others might introduce. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
::::(I wonder whether you'll be able to post such pictures again in discussions once [[mw:Flow|Flow]] is enacted.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Kalki, it is possible to read what you write and still disagree with you. I did not ignore "all the extensive material added afterward," nor did I "overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent." I read it, which should have been obvious by the fact that I referenced it. I just disagree with you. The QotD does not need 6 images. Your arguments are not persuasive - particularly the one comparing letters to pictures. The fact that you believe your making an argument means that argument is correct is one of the problems here. I am not promoting censorship of ideas. I don't believe the unimaginative are trying to constrain or control anyone. I believe 6 images makes the QotD section too busy, and distracts from the purpose of this site, which is to provide quotes. That's my opinion. But I'm aware that no amount of argument against what you want will change your actions, or your opinion of those who disagree with you as closed-minded troglodytes. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 15:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it might be simplest to get rid of the quotation altogether, and simply post "Mystical pictures of the day"? At present, the quotation tends to get lost amidst all the galactic objects, lights in the forest, rainbows, shadows extending into the distance, hands reaching for the sky, etc., etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 17:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I fear Kalki's method might actually have the opposite effect of what he is trying to accomplish. In the first place, I am not sure whether these large pictures do a good job in attracting more people's attention to the quote, or if on the contrary people get bored with always seeing the same pattern and flashy colors—which could lead them to not read the quotes of the day, and start avoiding the main page. Now, to be fair, Kalki often tries to choose appropriate, and different, pictures for QOTD. But Macspaunday's parody of Kalki's preference for mystical imagery might actually point to a poverty of thought that is much contrary to Kalki's sincere intention of introducing people to new thoughts and ideas. At least speaking for myself, when I read a quote for the first time, I prefer to be free to imagine (and produce my own imagery of) what the quote represents, to me, on my own. Kalki might wish to present his interpretation of the quote to others, but this (unintentionally?) interferes and breaks ''in advance'' my own interpretation. It's like being forced to watch a movie adaptation (good or bad) before reading a book. I don't know how that's compatibly with the principles of Freedom Kalki defends. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On the subject of what attracts people. Taking a quick look at our "rival" sites, apparently ''[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes goodreads]'' doesn't have nor use subjective pictures at all, and they seem to attract more people than Wikiquote (the same is true for ''brainyquote'', which in fact doesn't present any pictures). Of course these sites are not good in many aspects (e.g., sourcing of quotes), but perhaps ''goodreads''' policy to only present a small picture of the author next to the quote is something we could adopt. I'm almost sure that if they started adding large colorful shining pictures next to quotes, their viewership would decline. Perhaps giving a more professional look to our main page would help attract (and keep) more visitors. I recently made two simple suggestions for the QOTD, [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/January 28, 2014|here]] and [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 20, 2014|here]], don't know if they would be better. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. Obviously the QOTD alone is not even remotely responsible for overall less viewership, Wikiquote has many other—much more serious—problems, in content, navigation, etc. (and I repeat that I think Kalki has done more for the betterment of WQ than any other editor, my comments here are not meant to blame him, just offer constructive criticism. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Indeed. I appreciate Kalki's desire to make an artistic presentation, but would advise him to consider the artistry of [[w:Minimalism|Minimalism]]. Hmmm, now I see that we have no page on [[Minimalism]]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: (We do now.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: DanielTom has offered some excellent and indisputable wisdom here. He's absolutely right that Goodreads et al. go wrong in ways that WQ goes right: WQ has sourced quotations, warnings about false and doubtful attributions, etc. - and WQ gets hundreds of things right that Goodreads et al. conspicuously get wrong. But Goodreads et al. ''look'' vastly more authoritative than WQ because they don't illustrate hundreds of different quotations with Hoag's Object, heart-shaped stones held in the hand, etc., etc. They ''look'' authoritative in ways that WQ, sadly, does not. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:08, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Why do those websites attract more traffic than WQ? This is a topic that needs research, but I believe the main reason is that they present the best quotes right at the top of their pages. ''goodreads'', for example, has a voting system whereby the most liked quotes appear at the top. This is much different from WQ, where the readers often have to read through a sea of quotes just to find an occasional gem. (And this is particularly true in long theme pages, such as "[[Love]]".) The only way we can solve this in our current system is, believe it or not, through the use of pictures, to highlight the best quotes. (I suspect many of our readers only read through long pages by simply looking at picture captions.) So, at least to my mind, pictures can actually be the solution, not the problem. However, to be sure, I also share concerns about pictures in excess, irrelevant to the text, or too subjective that they apply and appear everywhere. In addition, although I might for example worship every single word Shakespeare wrote, placing a picture for every one of his quotes would not attract more people's attention to them, it might very well just do the opposite. This seems to be what is happening in articles that are flooded with walls of pictures. So pictures can become the problem when they are too many, and so go ''counter'' to their function of ''highlighting key quotes''. I think this is something everyone can recognize. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Leaving aside the consideration of typographic glyphs as images, leaving aside the question of whether Kalki speaks for the "[[w:silent majority|silent majority]]" (or is, in some sense, a multitude incarnate), leaving aside the small mindedness of mere mortals overwhelmed by the grandeur of Kalki's idealism; Kalki actually does offer a reason to support using a multiplicity of images. To wit:  ''to have much more opportunity for indicating extensive and expansive ideas''. Chomsky's quoted remark about the limitations of short-form exposition is certainly correct: some ideas require a longer form for their successful exposition. Toward that end, using the very rough approximation that a picture is worth a thousand words, one might seek an opportunity to indicate extensive and expansive ideas with an essay of six thousand words. However, bearing in mind that ''the art of quotation is generally characterized by [[brevity]]'', it would be incongruous to seek such opportunities in the pages of Wikiquote. Kalki's defense of the photomontage as a form of expression begs the question of whether the exposition of extensive and expansive ideas belongs on the main page. I think that it does not. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: Another way of thinking about Ningauble's point is this: Imagine that the quotation of the day is typically surrounded by six quotations from the Bible or Shakespeare - and that many of them had also been used to surround completely different quotations on previous days. That would certainly be a long-form exposition, but would it be appropriate to the front page, and would it show respect to the authors of the quotations? I'd imagine that many of the authors would think they were being less than respectfully represented by a page that surrounds a sentence or two that they wrote with thousands of words from the Bible or Shakespeare. I'd imagine they would think the same way about seeing their quotations surrounded by pictures of clouds, rainbows, galactic spirals, prisms, sculpted hearts, nineteenth-century genre paintings, etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Amidst many activities with concerns elsewhere, I have now examined the above comments, and will probably do so again, before posting some responses to some recent statements and actions. I am considering many options of what sorts of rebuttals to make, as I again leave for elsewhere, for there are plainly many complexities to consider in the assertions and attitudes of those who seek to impose what they perceive as admirable "simplicity" on the options of ''others'' in quite complicated ways, for quite complicated and varied reasons. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why bother? From your attitude in that very comment we can be pretty confident what your response will be. We cannot discuss what the community deems appropriate on this site as long as it might have some impact on you having your way. It's not very complicated at all. You will do what you want, and any discussion to the contrary is us (no matter how great a majority we are) trying to "impose" something on you. The discussion will go nowhere as long as you continue to ignore that somebody's opinions aside from yours might have merit. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am always willing to acknowledge merit, where it can be found, and to actually bother about a lot of things others do not, where vitally important forms of truth are at stake; and you are actually right to some very limited extent, though demonstrably wrong in others, for you can rely upon my responses being quite contrary to those which promote various forms of suppression of various forms of intelligent exposition by various forms of arrogant misuse of force.
::: '''[[Ironies]] and profound forms of [[stupidity]] about them certainly abound in this world, in ways I will actually decline to always specify, out of consideration of the plainly delicate and fragile sensibilities of some, and the need to discreetly retain some forms of [[knowledge]] to be revealed in more effective ways than those of presently declaring them openly to some of the most plainly ignorant, intolerant and insensitive people presently active here.''' I will actually specify that many of the most belligerently intolerant and oppressive of people are often desperate to find ways to convince others of the certainty of their numerical or absolute moral superiority, and genuinely believe such things themselves. '''I am certainly NOT quite so full of shallow and stupid certitude about many things as you certainly are trying to make me seem, in ways I will concede I perceive to be quite shallow and obvious.'''
::: I must say that for someone who had as yet only started a topic of derision of my work, and had made only 3 edits, all specifically in derision of me, who has contributed over 100,000, armed with all the authority of "collective identity" with a few others of the most intolerant here which those 3 edits provided you, declared in rather comically imperious tones of ''command'' as a member of "the collective", of those most avid to control OTHERS: "You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others."
::: I am not actually intimidated very much at all by such remarkably clear examples of the presumptive arrogance of the most intolerant and eagerly oppressive of people; '''I actually expect many of them to eventually provide prominent and long remembered examples to many students and researches of psychological and sociological processes, of significant aberrations in the social processes, towards subtle and overt forms of anti-social oppression and suppression of dissent.'''
::: Actually from the moment I first read those words, I honestly perceived you might be engaged in one of the most remarkably arrogant, petty and presumptuous forms of pretension and deceitfulness or delusions which I had yet encountered on this wiki, and I actually strongly suspect that you could very likely be one of the sporadic trolls who primarily aim to disrupt the normal processes of wikis and their development. '''Of course I am quite willing to concede that I could be entirely wrong''', and you are not actually such a paltry twerp, and even without much actual evidence in support of such an assessment, could conceivably even be a generally mild and benevolent researcher in various social sciences, including those of how people respond in positive and negative ways to various forms of generally positive and intelligent presentations of various ideas or indications of the beauty of the world, and in this case you are assuming the guise of an intolerant belligerent twerp or troll to provide an example for all eternity of how easily swayed to paths of oppressive stupidity some people can be, much like those in the psychology experiments of [[Solomon Asch]], [[Stanley Milgram]], and [[Philip Zimbardo]]. '''IF that were the actually the case here I would actually have to assert that I consider it an extremely unethical and misguided practice and strongly disagree with the adoption of such vile guises by anyone, even in pretenses, for ostensibly worthy psychological research and investigations, and forms of direct action in social involvement.'''
::: Though not quite as pessimistic as he sometimes was, I have long agreed to a great extent with many of the observations of the intelligent [[Heroically]] [[Angelic]] [[Humanist]] [[Absurdist]], [[Kurt Vonnegut]] including that in ''Mother Night'': '''We are what we [[pretend]] to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'''
::: As I have remained busier than I had anticipated I would be in various complex concerns, and it actually looks like I will continue to be for a while yet, I am willing to patiently consider many options and aspects of many situations, before I respond more vigorously here, to what I believe to be many rather ironically stupid developments in the audacity of those who would suppress and censor the indication of thoughts and ideas.
::: As I have to get busy doing other things now, I will simply close with a profound quote by one of many profound philosophers who I have long admired:
{{quote of the day
| quote = ''Every [[morning]] I shall concern myself anew about the boundary Between the [[love]]-[[deed]]-'''Yes''' and the [[power]]-deed-'''No''' And pressing forward [[honor]] [[reality]]. We cannot avoid Using power, Cannot escape the compulsion To afflict the [[world]], '''So let us, cautious in diction And mighty in contradiction, Love powerfully.'''''
| author = Martin Buber
}}
::: ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::::Name-calling and cries of censorship, while hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority. Who could have seen that coming?
::::I'll admit that my attempt to improve the wiki in this particular way has been lost, although I'd encourage others to continue the battle. And especially, if you are reading this and agree, I would encourage you to register and to speak up. Even if your contribution will be dismissed (publicly, anyway - privately I have received kudos), if you desire the improvement of this project you should contribute in any way you see necessary, including this one. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 22:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: You are plainly mistaken if you think I am "hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority." I am a rather [[anarchistic]] [[Absurdist]] and though I might accept that in some ways there could be such absolutes, I reject notions that any mortal mind has the capacity or comprehension to absolutely determine or formulate such with absolutely reliable accuracy. To each their own pieces of the puzzles... ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== Universal Language Selector will be enabled by default again on this wiki by 21 February 2014 ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
On January 21 2014 the MediaWiki extension [[mw:Universal Language Selector|Universal Language Selector]] (ULS) was [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Jan2014|disabled]] on this wiki. A new preference was added for logged-in users to turn on ULS. This was done to prevent slow loading of pages due to ULS webfonts, a behaviour that had been observed by the Wikimedia Technical Operations team on some wikis.

We are now ready to enable ULS again. The temporary preference to enable ULS will be removed. A [[commons:File:ULS-font-checkbox.png|new checkbox]] has been added to the Language Panel to enable/disable font delivery. This will be unchecked by default for this wiki, but can be selected at any time by the users to enable webfonts. This is an interim solution while we improve the feature of webfonts delivery.

You can read the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Feb2014|announcement]] and the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Upcoming Development Plan|development plan]] for more information. Apologies for writing this message only in English. Thank you. [[m:User_talk:Runab WMF|Runa]]

</div>


: No apology is needed. Visitors here are not required to master the subtle art of translating from English to Quotish. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Heh. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Amendment to the Terms of Use ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Hello all,

Please join a discussion about a [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|proposed amendment]] to the [[wmf:Terms of Use|Wikimedia Terms of Use]] regarding undisclosed paid editing and we encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please translate this statement if you can, and we welcome you to translate the proposed amendment and introduction. Please see [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|the discussion on Meta Wiki]] for more information. Thank you! [[:m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 22:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Einstein was a Humanist? ==

I've tried to edit this but another editor has reverted it, so I'd appreciate some more opinions. IMHO it's thoroughly misleading to describe Einstein as a Humanist: a) he never self-identified as a Humanist; b) in Einstein's day the Humanist movement did not exist in the form that it does today (i.e. that of a 'secular religion'), so the term applied to Einstein is meaningless; c) his stated beliefs are not in accord with those of Humanism. [[User:HPotato|HPotato]] ([[User talk:HPotato|talk]]) 10:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
: '''OMFG.''' Omnipresent [[Mystical]] Fair [[Goodness]] ever abides, even amidst all the petty, pretentious and delusive perspectives and outright lies that are often presented AS IF they were fact, or supreme facts, when to anyone with sufficient [[knowledge]] and [[reason]] they clearly are NOT. It is entirely accurate to state Einstein was a [[Humanist]], as the contentions on '''[[Talk:Albert_Einstein#.27Scientist_and_humanist.27|that talk page]]''' by various editors make abundantly clear. I myself have been acutely aware of much of his involvement in endeavors of [[Humanism]] since I was just a toddler, and probably become aware of his support of the [[w:Ethical movement|Ethical Culture Society]] when I was 5 or 6 years old, and this was part of one of the founding alliances of the wider [[w:International Humanist and Ethical Union |International Humanist and Ethical Union]]. And as another editor pointed out: "'''Einstein served on the advisory board of the [[w:First Humanist Society of New York|First Humanist Society of New York]]. His name appears in Wikipedia's [[w:List of humanists|List of humanists]].'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: The problem is that words change meanings. Einstein was undoubtedly a humanist in the classical meaning of the word. However, nowadays it is virtually synonymous with atheist, which Einstein was not. It could be argues, therefore, that to call him a humanist is misleading.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The word still, in this day, also very much means what it used to mean. What is potentially confusing is that some atheists are also humanists and some humanists are also atheists. What is ''misleading'' is the polemics of certain oppositional groups, such as an insistence in the [[w:New Atheism|New Atheism]] that a "good" humanist must be [[w: Antitheism|''anti''-theist]], and the insistence of [[w:Christian right|right-wing political factions]] that all humanists are Godless heathens. "Humanist" and "atheist" are not synonyms: many atheists are not humanists, and many humanists are not atheists. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: '''Thanks for making that point.''' I had written several paragraphs yesterday elaborating on that and related points, but decided to take time to reflect and temper my observations before posting anything here. As it stands I have decided to drop all but the first paragraph, and might bring up other things elsewhere on my own talk pages in coming weeks. Here is part of the first paragraph of what I stated on seeing this yesterday:
::::: '''Of course words change meanings, with time, in human society — as a person familiar with [[history]] I recognize that. As a person familiar with many aspects of the [[sciences]] and [[disciplines]] of [[psychology]] and [[semiotics]] I also recognize they ALWAYS have various nuances and shades of meanings that can and MUST differ between human individuals, ALL of the time.''' KNOWING this I consider it extremely inconsiderate and profoundly wrongful to seek to constrain definitions of words to such uses as are PLAINLY and profoundly WRONG, easily misleading, and ''needlessly'' confusing upon vastly different ranges of issues. I believe that such IS the case in ACCEPTING "Humanism" as a near-synonym for "Atheism" as I assert many ignorant, confused, asinine, arrogant and rationally and ethically incompetent theists AND atheists are prone to do, in order to promote many aspects of their own particular ranges of agenda.
:::: And with that I get back to work on the adding of material to the project, before having to leave again soon. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

== Call for project ideas: funding is available for community experiments ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">

[[File:IEG_key_blue.png|100px|right]]

''I apologize if this message is not in your language. Please help translate it.''

Do you have an idea for a project that could improve your community? [[m:Grants:IEG|Individual Engagement Grants]] from the Wikimedia Foundation help support individuals and small teams to organize experiments for 6 months. You can get funding to try out your idea for online community organizing, outreach, tool-building, or research to help make {{SITENAME}} better. In March, we’re looking for new project proposals.

Examples of past Individual Engagement Grant projects:
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Build_an_effective_method_of_publicity_in_PRChina|Organizing social media for Chinese Wikipedia]] ($350 for materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Visual_editor-_gadgets_compatibility|Improving gadgets for Visual Editor]] ($4500 for developers)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library|Coordinating access to reliable sources for Wikipedians]] ($7500 for project management, consultants and materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision|Building community and strategy for Wikisource]] (€10000 for organizing and travel)

'''[[m:Grants:IEG#ieg-applying|Proposals]] are due by 31 March 2014.''' There are a number of ways to [[m:Grants:IEG|get involved]]!

Hope to have your participation,

--[[m:User:Sbouterse (WMF)|Siko Bouterse, Head of Individual
Engagement Grants, Wikimedia Foundation]] 19:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

</div>


== Buddy Holly Wikiquotes. ==

The Photo you have on that page is not Buddy Holly but a Holly impersonator.
{{unsigned|164.165.145.21}}
: I have lowered the prominence of the disputed image, which I agree is dubious, and added some that are clearly of [[Buddy Holly]] to the page. I might add a few more later. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Language links (interwiki) via Wikidata are coming ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
[[File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg|150px|right]]
Hey everyone :)

I just wanted to let you know that Wikiquote will be the next sister project to be supported by Wikidata. Initially you will be able to maintain the links between the language editions of Wikiquote on Wikidata. This means you will no longer have to maintain them in the wiki text of each article. (However you will still be able to if you want to and local links will overwrite the ones from Wikidata in that case.) We plan to enable this on April 8th for you. At a later point (depending on how this initial roll-out goes) you will also get access to the other data on Wikidata like the date of birth of a scientist for example.

If you have any questions please come to [[d:Wikidata:Wikiquote]] where we'll try to answer all of them. If you're already familiar with Wikidata and want to act as an ambassador please add your name to the list there to help people find you.

I'm looking forward to welcoming you all to Wikidata.

Cheers
[[:d:User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher]] 21:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Bot ==

I have requested Bot permissions at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== What is up with the game-cleanup template? ==

Not sure what the heck is going on, but the page for [[Grim Fandango]] lists a whole bunch of… buses? I think?

Anyway, I traced the problem back to the [[Template:Game-cleanup|game-cleanup template]], but that page isn't editable so I'm not really sure what to do. – Guido del Confuso, 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Well, I just checked and it's fixed now, so never mind, I guess. Unless someone saw this and fixed it, in which case, thanks! — [[User:Guido del Confuso|Guido del Confuso]] ([[User talk:Guido del Confuso|talk]]) 06:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:: It was a simple case of vandalism, which has been reverted. I have protected the underlying "highly visible template". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Indefinitely blocked IP addresses ==

Hi, this proposal is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
# The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at [[Special:BlockList]].
# Amending [[Wikiquote:Blocking policy#Anonymous and open proxies]] to discourage future indefinite blocks, with proposed language changes like adding "Administrators are strongly discouraged/prohibited/advised against indefinitely blocking IP addresses".

As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
# IP addresses should generally never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
# ''In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, such as for open proxies, the '''Meta Stewards have already implemented a near-indefinite global block for it'''.''

Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 05:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I agree that, because IP address assignments tend to be volatile, they ought not be indefinitely blocked except in special cases such as open proxies or very long term abuse. Some of our administrators do occasionally indef-block an address, and other administrators occasionally, but very infrequently, go back and expire them. It has been a couple years since anyone scrubbed the [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=userblocks&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=tempblocks list of indef-blocked IPs] and, as it happens, I recently put it on my to-do list to review them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Quote popularity ==

Is there any way to rank the quotes by popularity, and/or how "well-known" they are? Or at least to sort them into buckets from "very popular" to "very unpopular"? I haven't been able to find it by searching around, but perhaps some method could be programmed.

== Proposed optional changes to Terms of Use amendment ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">Hello all, in response to some community comments in the discussion on the amendment to the Terms of Use on undisclosed paid editing, we have prepared two optional changes. Please [[m:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Optional_changes|read about these optional changes on Meta wiki]] and share your comments. If you can (and this is a non english project), please translate this announcement. Thanks! [[m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 21:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC) </div>


== Formatting sources ==

What's standard procedure on the layout for sourcing quotations on Wikiquote? Currently, [[Wikiquote:Manual of Style]], [[Wikiquote:Sourcing]] and [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]] (still a mess unadapted to Wikiquote since import) doesn't seem to provide a lot of guidance to current practices here. I'm bringing this up because I noticed when I provided the source for a number on quotations on [[Bob Keeshan]], [[User:Geezerbill|Geezerbill]] had already introduced the quote he got from my response ([[Special:Diff/1696976|diff]]) using Wikipedia's <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref> and <references/></nowiki></code> markup, which was later removed by [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] ([[Special:Diff/1696983|diff]]). And basically I was afraid of accidentally stepping into what seemed to be a small dispute over formatting refs, so I reverted myself when I noticed the previous change to the <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref></nowiki></code> layout. I know Kalki's been here longer than I or Geezerbill have been, but I'd like to know the community's opinion on this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you very much for your inquiry. It has made me realize how very much many of our help pages still need simplifying and updating, and despite the tediousness of that and my aversion to prescriptive assertions, I might actually start focusing on that problem within the next month. As to citation styles, though we have come to tolerate many that people have carried over from other types of citation, including those found in footnote and endnote stylings, '''we avoid using footnote citations in favor of interlinear citation.''' Personally, I avoid using templates and do not recommend them, and since the wiki began in 2003 the favored styles have been something along these lines, but with minor adaptations and extensions permitted:

:On Author pages, or pages for an author's works:
:* Quote text.
:** ''Name of Work'' (YYYY) or (Month YYYY) or (DD Month YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
:And on theme pages or in sections where various authors are cited:
:* Quote text.
:** First & Last Name, in ''Name of Work'' (YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
: If there are internet links used, I personally prefer to place them so that the entire title becomes a link, for both aesthetic and practical reasons, as it makes the link cleaner and clearer, but that is not any kind of mandate.

: I am sure there are other things that can be specified, or advised, but that provides a summary of some of the practices and norms which were established early on, and have endured here, despite an increasing importation of other cite styles. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

(edit conflict) @[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: The standard procedure is what you can find on pretty much all Wikiquote pages: we use interlinear, not footnote, citations. This is because WQ considers sources to be an important (and integral) part of quotations. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:Alright, thanks @[[User:Kalki|Kalki]] and @[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: I have a consideration for you though, if you will. Wiktionary uses a similar style of quotation to demonstrate that particular use of a word reflects a particular definition; see [[wikt:go#Verb]] for example, which has "quotations" dropdowns (JavaScript hack from their Common.js) that you can click on to see the full list. Do you mind if I use that as examples of sourcing? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 11:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:: There probably could be some use for such a format option here in some regards, but I would not recommend it for standard citations, which I believe should remain visible as interlinear citations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

* TeleComNasSprVen is correct about the guidelines not describing the layout conventions that have evolved here over time. Since the earliest days of the project, these were largely ignored in favor of a "learn by example" approach (and even "discover by experiment"). E.g., the use of interlinear citations is ''exemplified'' at [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout]] and [[Wikiquote:Templates]], but the practice is not ''stated or explained'' anywhere except in discussions. It is also rather tricky to give general guidance that avoids unnecessarily arbitrary specifics, as many details of presentation are subject to considerable variation. (E.g., in contrast to Kalki's preferences, I usually link just the title rather than the whole citation, and for serial publications I do not usually parenthesize the date that identifies the issue unless volume and issue numbers are also given. Neither approach is wrong.) I am not exactly volunteering to rewrite the guidelines, but I have long felt that greater clarity would be a good thing for orienting newcomers, and that it would be better if the generic {{tl|cleanup}} templates could link to specific conventions that need to be addressed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: You could try using that "dropdown" format here for sources, on one or two pages, as an experiment. I don't think it is one we should adopt, though, because, other than implying that sources are secondary, it would also prevent people from simply saving or copying the article with citations to a Word document, without first having to click on every single box to show the sources. (I guess the same problem would apply to those who'd want to print it.) And having those little boxes in front of every quote could also prove distracting (precisely the thing you want to avoid). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:In any case, I like a little bit of standardization, and templates go quite some ways toward that, so I threw together a template that might be worth trying out at [[testwiki:Template:Quotation-author]]. I'm also considering moving it to Wikiquote but I'm afraid it might be deleted for lack of consensus. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Some levels and types of standardization are quite acceptable but templates often become ways to automatically impose some which prevent exceptions and useful variations, thus I generally tend to avoid them when I can. I am not sure there are any desirable advantages to having that template here, and I perceive there might be problems with the overuse of such. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but in that case we could try stipulating on the template documentation page itself that the template is not the only way to source our quotations. What if instead of making a template "official", everyone had a way of having their quotation-sourcing style attributed to them? For example, <code><nowiki>{{User:TeleComNasSprVen/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> would be attributed to me (in the source code) and uses my style, while <code><nowiki>{{User:Kalki/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> is attributed to you and uses your style. For one-off exceptions we could always subst/delete the original transclusion and replace it with a custom-made sourcing style, and it would be relatively easy to change all existing tranclusions by modifying the master template. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Well no, I don't mean exactly in the way they use it, but in terms of the source code and JavaScript/wikitext implementation involved I was thinking of something similar to the template I created above. Try it on a few pages on the testwiki (since they're mostly garbage anyway) and see if you like it.{{unsigned|TeleComNasSprVen}}
::I fear that would be even more confusing to new editors. I think sources should be simply written in plain text, so that in the future they can be easily altered, and corrected, by different people. We already have a few templates (see, e.g., [[:Category:Citation templates]]), but I personally avoid them altogether; it's much easier for me to just write down whatever information I have of the source, without having to follow strict parameters. That's just me, though, maybe other editors see it differently. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I know you object to the use of templates in general, but as a matter of personal style preferences would you, or anyone else in this thread, object to me moving the template from testwiki over here? As I said, since it seems you disapprove of templates in general, instead of moving it to template-space and make it an "official" widely used Wikiquote template, I could relocate it to my userspace to mark it "This is my personal style and others are likely to use their own", at least in the source code. You can implement your own styles using plain wikitext or whatever, but my opinion is in favor of a template, as you can probably guess. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I don't think anyone would object to you moving this new template to your own userspace. (You can even move it to WQ's template space, as far as I'm concerned.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: On general principles I don't think it is a good idea for articles to transclude things from userspace. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe he could use "subst:"? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal: More community involvement in Quote of the Day process ==

'''Proposal:'''
#I would like to propose we the community discuss having more involvement, as a community, in the Quote of the Day process for both (1) Selecting quotes and (2) Layout of quotes and images, on the [[Main Page]].
#Selection of quotes: It appears that at present quotes are voted on at individual date pages, example [[March 20]], and then selected by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.
#Layout of quotes and images on [[Main Page]]: It appears that at present, Layout of quotes and images in the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]] is determined by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.

(Side note: [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1698258&oldid=1698219 helpfully pointed out that I am genuinely doing my best to conduct myself with a professional conduct during this debate.] I would ask others to do the same, thank you.)

'''Some of my general ideas:'''

#Selection of quotes: As long as this takes into consideration opinions of the Wikiquote community at large, and the present system seems to do that, this seems okay. Not idea, but alright. Perhaps instead of one user we the community could elect a Committee of three (3) users for the final selection of the quotes, so that an odd number could help resolve disputes if and when they arise.
#Layout of Quote of the day section: This is where I have differing opinions with the current layout formatting. I truly believe there is: (1) Too many images used, but particularly too many images used that are ''not directly related'' to the quote itself. I feel for the most part images should be of the subject of the quote, the individual himself/herself that first stated the quote. (2) I feel that there is generally too much wikilinking-of-words-within-the-quote, and that this detracts from the reading of the quote, itself.

What do others think? Would it be best to move this discussion to a subpage for further debate by the community?

I'd like to move to establish a community process for determining Layout of Quotes for the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]], that better takes into account input of the community, instead of one individual.

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:Some initial thoughts: I feel that having a more robust process for selecting the QoD is an admirable goal, but being realistic I feel that we may have problems with participation. I for one used to participate in the voting process, but found that I was often unable to find the time to do so and still manage all the other tasks I wished to do here to improve other areas. I sincerely doubt I would have the time to participate on a daily basis. I think that the legacy of having Kalki perform much of the work simply grew out of the lack of available others to help with the large effort required to keep producing them. That being said, I do not have a problem with trying something new - I just fear that (as with many other discussions or ideas) we really do not have enough active editors that might participate. I don't want to discourage new ideas, but that's my initial thought.

:As to some of your other points, I do agree that there are times when there seem to be too many images and that these tend to overshadow the quote. But I also believe that this is the exception and not the rule. I believe that in some of the recent discussion, a loose rule of approximately four images was generally deemed acceptable - and is something I would also support. I also agree that the selected images should be related to the quote, but I am not so disposed to pose strict limits such that only the author of the quote is pictured. Although on occasion I have disagreed with selected images (and if this happens, I would rather address that on a case by case basis - maybe we should require the proposed layout to be posted at least a week in advance so others can comment? - Just thinking out loud) I have not often found the images selected to be all that bad - the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy|Image use policy]] does allow for more latitude than just the author. Finally, I do not have a problem with the wikilinking - in fact I consider this to be a positive aspect since it leads readers to explore other pages on the site (and has been common practice on all WQ pages for as long as I can remember). ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Okay, thank you, I respect your opinions. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I tend to agree with [[User:UDScott|UDScott]]'s analysis. I view QOTD as ephemeral, and am just not particularly interested in being involved in that process. I have suggested a quote or two over the years, but working on it day in and day out seems like a grind, and I'm glad someone else is willing to take up the task at all. That said, I certainly don't think it would ''harm'' the process for more editors to be involved in suggesting quotes to be used or evaluating suggestions that have been made. As for layout, I generally agree that we should have fewer images (one on each side should be enough), and I like UDScott's suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review. As for wikilinking, I also think that this is a good thing for our project, and would actually like to see a ''lot'' more of it, not just in QOTD, but in our articles generally. While we are not an advertising click farm that profits by getting people to view more pages, we do want the reader to have the best possible sense of the breadth of our project, and the greatest ease in jumping to other pages that might be of interest. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you. So moving forward, we have three editors so far that support the suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review, and having the community more involved in the layout process. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: '''The layout ''usually'' is present for review a day or two in advance, and I will endeavor to have some ideas presented even earlier in the future, as they often have been.''' I had to laugh out loud a bit here, because in rather typical fashion, you choose to ''ignore'' what ''praise'' or ''recognition'' my past presentations have generally had for over 10 years of nearly daily efforts here and ONLY emphasize what you wish to emphasize, which you reiterate in ways which, to the casual scanner of the comments, could make it seem previous responses were primarily critical of them, and present them in such ways as seem designed to develop more means to actively constrain or counter my involvement in various ways. I will note that over the years I believe that I have received far more praise for my efforts from casual visitors to the site and regular editors than disrespectful criticism, though some of the few people most prone to that have gradually accumulated into a small but relatively effective pack in their efforts to constrain the options available not only to me, but to everyone, and they have done this, thus far with relatively little notice or opposition from people more inclined to appreciate and include imagery in their presentations.

: '''Despite occasional procrastination or tardiness, I have ''usually'' had presentations ready at least a couple days in advance, and yet I am certainly against any authorization that these simply be butchered by specious arguments or assertions by those not interested in doing much layout work themselves.''' Though there are certainly further complications which could arise, opening up the processes more is not something I certainly am NOT adamantly against, but '''IF things are going to become more formally complicated and there is to be some final contestation for final layout I say it should be without any pre-determined constraints, beyond the legally necessary ones such as have ''always'' been recognized. IF there are alternate layouts to be proposed, by anyone, they should probably be presented on the talk pages of the related date, and if it seems there is a need for a vote between any alternatives we should let the most popular layout, within actual legal limits, become the chosen one, without PRIOR constraints and conditions of WHAT and HOW or WHY it can be presented.''' I know this might seem a somewhat frightening proposition to those who most seek to actively constrain the options available to others, and of course greater participation might not be what some people are actually after, and they merely seek to subtly or overtly diminish the options of others to devise layouts and present them — but I believe that opening up even more layout options is far more fair and likely to produce actually GOOD results, and more participation, IF that is truly what people are in any way after, than simply allowing more ways a few people, noticeably hostile or critical to my work in the past, to simply ''butcher it down'' on a nearly daily basis, as a means of further personal harassment of an avid worker. '''THAT of course is something I believe any person of genuine integrity MUST oppose as a betrayal of the principles with which wiki projects were founded, and also of the more general [[ethical]] [[principles]] of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]] and [[Joyous]] [[Universal]] [[Love]].''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with UDScott's comments 100%. I would just add, that Kalki is ''very'' receptive to QOTD suggestions; for example, [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 20, 2014|today's QOTD]] (that you can currently see on the main page) was actually suggested by me. Although more participation would be welcome, the reality is that very few people participate in the voting process, or suggest quotes. This is unlikely to change. Kalki's work in this area is actually very much commendable, and how he has consistently found the time and energy to keep up with the QOTDs for so long, is simply incredible. Although I enjoyed reading through some pages where quotes are suggested, and voting in them, I must say most of them are filled with unmemorable (bad) quotes, and even selecting the "best" of them is a challenge. I believe the fault here is that quotes are being suggested for the days of birth of authors, so there are some days, that don't have a single good quote. If I had any criticism of Kalki's selections, it would be that he sometimes doesn't choose the very best quotes, simply because they are too short. (I think he prefers longer ones because they give him more liberty in the selection of pictures.) I disagree with BD's comment: the QOTD is not "ephemeral", the main page is ''by far'' Wikiquote's most viewed page. It is how WQ presents itself to newcomers. For this reason, other than the avoidance of New Age imagery, I would really like to see sources being presented along the quotes in the main page, which would be a more proper representation of WQ. This could be easily implemented, if Kalki could see, that presenting sources is not aesthetically displeasing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I actually often choose longer quotes because they often are more extensive in their expressions of ideas and thoughts than some of the briefer ones that are available. I certainly have no aversion to short quotes, and there are many good short ones which I have chosen and have long been among my favorites — but many of the more notable short ones available have already been used. I have often stated that I generally dislike the idea of having the citations in the layouts, because though simple reference to the titles of works are used if they have a separate page, all of the technical info is available on the author's or the work's page, which are linked to, and this can often be aesthetically detrimental or cumbersome in an otherwise appealing layout. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I just want to add that I mean ephemeral in the sense of the QOTD being fleeting - there one day, replaced the next. I prefer to work on permanent installations. I'm not saying that QOTD is unimportant, merely that it is impermanent, and I prefer to direct my energies towards the permanent. I would also like to suggest that, in order to preserve resources and have a contingency available in case there is a dispute, there's no reason that we can't reuse some old quotes and layouts for QOTD. We've been doing this for many years now, and I think that we can grab a handful of the best examples that were used, say, five or six years ago, and have them as a standby. No visitor is likely to remember our quotes from that long ago. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:The sad fact is that no matter how much you want to try and revive a process, you can't force volunteers from a volunteer-driven website to work on an area that they have no knowledge nor interest in. I think community participation in the QotD process has always been open, the problem merely is the community has no interest in said participation. A related problem is investment of our limited time and proper allocation of volunteer resources. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: In response to a few of BD2412's remarks, I would point out, that aside from a very few cases of ''accidental'' repetition, and one case I recall where the layout chosen and displayed was late in the day replaced with a layout from the year before in an act of censorship of ideas by another editor, there has been no deliberate repetition of layouts, though with limited imagery of some authors, a few used with new quotes probably are similar to those used in the past with others. The archives of [[QOTD by month|QOTD by month]] provide a record of the past layouts, since November 2007, and some other pages list the selections prior to those. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: I am aware that there has been virtually no repetition, and commend the work that has produced original work to this point. However, we have the option of doing some recycling. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Numbers: the main page is viewed by over [http://stats.grok.se/en.q/latest/Main_Page 10,000] people every day. I don't think we need to repeat quotes, but the fixation with authors' birth-dates rather than with presenting the very best, most brilliant, quotes we have, sometimes (in some days) leaves much to be desired. I don't know how Kalki feels about this. We could also try to be more flexible, and change the QOTD when someone notable passes away, as a tribute, or when a speech receives great attention, (e.g. [[Ellen Page]]'s,) though there could be some objections to this (''test of time'', etc). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I believe that the ''guideline'' of preferring relationships to the date has been useful in preventing or minimizing floods of repetition of similar suggestions or sources over extensive periods of days. It has never been treated as an ''absolute'' rule, and where significant authors have no known birth or death dates, there is often a strong case for these. I have sometimes thought of having some days of the weeks or month designated as giving a greater weight to ancient authors, but never came up with what I perceived to be an entirely workable scheme for such. Until 2009, when my long-standing and never-misused admin status was removed, and last minute alterations were no longer reliably possible, I ''often'' changed QOTDs at the last moment, to something appropriate to the circumstances of prominent person's deaths. This option is one I believe I have not exercised since that time, even when the pages were not yet locked, believing I lacked any "authority" or authorization to improvise beyond the suggestions ranked highly on the suggestion pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

: I agree that the level of participation is a callenge for this process. Note how few people participate in ranking quotes on a regular basis. I recall at least one occasion when Kalki made a [[Wikiquote:Village pump archive 25#QOTD problems|plea for more participation]], which produced a modest increase for only a brief time. In my own experience, when I did try to participate on a regular basis it became rather tedious after a while, particularly since there were often a large number of candidates to review and since, as DanielTom notes, a lot of then were not very good. There is a tendency for mediocre and poor suggestions to accumulate and remain after the better ones have been used and removed from the list. I approve of Kalki's idea for posting layouts farther in advance so they can be reviewed and discussed. A day ir two is not really enough time unless one makes a habit of reviewing them every single day. One week might be more convenient. This small step would make the process open to to broader participation for those occasions when people do want to participate. A more structured system might be considered if and when actual participation reaches a level that could benefit from organization. Making it an open process is the most important step. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Kalki keeps Wikiquote fresh and updated with the daily quotes provided by him. Everyone can find faults, but is there anyone willing to put into as huge effort as he does? --[[User:Spannerjam|Spannerjam]] ([[User talk:Spannerjam|talk]]) 12:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

== Copyrighted franchise quotes ==

Hello, I'm brand new here, so please forgive me for asking this if I'm missing something really obvious, but how do we handle copyrighted franchise quotes (i.e. Pokedex entries or trading card flavor text)? I'm not seeing any here, so I'd like to add them, but since they're copyrighted, I'm not sure. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: Are they actually ''quoted'' by anyone? Are they attested in a source other than the card itself, or the manufacturer's website? This sounds pretty close to [[advertising slogans]], for which we have imposed a requirement of third-party quoting, to avoid promotional exploitation here. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::So if I can find a third-party source besides quote collections, then they're okay? Is there a way to add said sources? I'm not seeing any on the pages I've seen so far. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 04:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I suppose you could go by the format in [[advertising slogans]], or see [[English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb)]], since we have a similar reporting requirement for proverbs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: Alright, thanks! [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 17:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] title discussion ==

A proposal has been made at Wikipeda, at [[w:Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8]], to change the title of the article, "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to "Hillary Clinton". I presume that if that move succeeds, we would likewise move our [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] page to [[Hillary Clinton]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Changes to the default site typography coming soon ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">
This week, the typography on Wikimedia sites will be updated for all readers and editors who use the default "Vector" skin. This change will involve new serif fonts for some headings, small tweaks to body content fonts, text size, text color, and spacing between elements. The schedule is:

* '''April 1st''': non-Wikipedia projects will see this change live
* '''April 3rd''': Wikipedias will see this change live

This change is very similar to the "Typography Update" Beta Feature that has been available on Wikimedia projects since November 2013. After several rounds of testing and with feedback from the community, this Beta Feature will be disabled and successful aspects enabled in the default site appearance. Users who are logged in may still choose to use another skin, or alter their [[Special:MyPage/vector.css|personal CSS]], if they prefer a different appearance. Local [[MediaWiki:Common.css|common CSS]] styles will also apply as normal, for issues with local styles and scripts that impact all users.

For more information:
* [[mw:Typography refresh|Summary of changes and FAQ]]
* [[mw:Talk:Typography refresh|Discussion page]] for feedback or questions
* [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/03/27/typography-refresh/ Post] on blog.wikimedia.org

-- [[m:User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling]] (Product Manager) on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Design|User Experience Design]] team
</div>


: The more open font in the body text will take a little getting used to, but it could be worse. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:09, April Fools 2014 (UTC)
:: +1. (My initial thought was: "Let's hope this is an April Fool's joke!", but it's not ''that'' bad.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I actually find the text in "diff" pages much more legible. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Wikibreak. ==

I am feeling a bit burned out. I'll be back in a week or so. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== vandalism ==

As a relatively new user looking at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] I've just noticed that only administrators and bots automatically have their edits patrolled, which means that there is no way to filter out edits by experienced users from RC. Why don't you give <tt>autopatrolled</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> rights to non-admin users (by creating a user group)?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    09:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
: As far as I know, RC does not have a filter for autopatrolled users. NP does, but the number of new pages per day in this wiki is quite small compared to Wikipedia. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::It has in Wikidata and Commons … <s>do you have patroller rights?</s>    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    17:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::As an admin you probably do. The URL on Wikiquote should be https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1, if you are autoconfirmed on Wikidata you can find it [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1 here].    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    18:10, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote:Village pump

2014-04-03T18:10:20Z

FDMS4: /* vandalism */ RE

__NEWSECTIONLINK__
{{Wikiquote:Village pump/Header}}

== Scientology ==

What does the community make of this edit by [[user:Cirt]] on the [[Scientology]] page?

These ten quotations (actually eleven entries, but one is a duplicate) only mention Scientology tangentially, and are all primarily about est or Werner Erhard and seem to have been cherry-picked to give a misleading impression that there is a far stronger connection to Scientology than existed in reality.

For example

*" The founder of EST, a former member of the Scientology church called Werner Erhard..."
*"*Est (Erhard Seminars Training) has been a singularly successful synthetic derivation, which has itself gone on to generate new movements, transmitting aspects of Scientology thought or practice far from the domain of L. Ron Hubbard."
*"Rupert (1992) discusses a range of cases... such as the human potential movement, est, or Scientology."
*"...and est/Forum was a repackaging of Scientology by Werner Erhard,..."
*"Werner Erhard's highly successful est cult is partly derived from Scientology."

etc.

The fact of the matter is that Erhard did a few Scientology courses in the space of five months in early 1970, at a time when he was avidly investigating a vast range of philosophies and disciplines, but that is not the impression that a reader of this page would be left with.

Does it not reflect negatively on the reputation of Wikiquote to have the Scientology page commandeered to serve as a coatrack to propagate misleading information about other organizations and individuals?

It may be relevant that Cirt has an extensive history of POV-pushing on these subjects on wikipedia, and in fact was de-sysopped and topic-banned for exactly that behavior [[w:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466#Remedies|there]]. After that, he concentrated on other wikimedia projects (where he has undoubtedly done a good deal of great work), but perhaps he cannot resist the temptation to return to his obsessions? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:'''Reply:''' {{done}}. I've gone ahead and voluntarily taken the initiative to move those above-mentioned quotes to the talk page, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=1654965&oldid=1643592 DIFF]. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to {{user|MLKLewis}}. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I do not feel that Cirt's response fully adresses my concerns. Although he has removed the five items that I listed above by way of example, he has left the other five equally questionable entries on the page. And what is the justification for inserting the removed material into the Talk page, which is meant to be for discussions about how to improve the Topic page?

Furthermore, is not the intense activity this last October at this page:
https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Landmark_Forum&offset=&limit=100&action=history
a further example of Cirt's attempting to hijack Wikiquote to propagate a personal viewpoint, an activity for which he was sanctioned at Wikipedia? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 07:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{user|MLKLewis}}, I'm glad you've acknowledged that I went ahead and removed entries from that page. If you participate in talk page discussion on the individual page I hope we can come to an amicable resolution together about this. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Quotes about notable social implications of technology ==

I would like to add quotes about particular scientific developments to Wikiquote. Is this ok?[[User:Open Research|Open Research]] ([[User talk:Open Research|talk]]) 13:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

:It should be perfectly fine as long as the subject fulfills [[WQ:N|our notability guideline]]. As a general rule of thumb, if there's a Wikipedia page, it's notable enough. Is there a particular development you want to add? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 01:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== Delete (not just lock) simple.wikiquote.org? ==

The simple-English wikiquote project at http://simple.wikiquote.org has been locked for some time, but it's still visible on the web, so it hasn't been fully closed. The simple English version of (apparently) 591 pages taints the whole project by making it look infantile - an impression reinforced by all those pages on the main site that use kindergarten-style images of galaxies and flames to illustrate abstract ideas. Isn't it time to remove it? [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 21:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: Though there are clearly many differences of opinion between us on many matters, here is something I believe we can agree upon. I never really liked the idea much, but for a time it was clear that at least a few others did, and I am usually loathe to suppress efforts of others needlessly. The quality of their productions never did find broad appeal, and their enthusiasms were eventually dismissed, derided and suppressed by others, and the project killed. As it seems to be a thoroughly defunct site, I believe its presence on the web should probably be removed, and would support any efforts to have this done, within whatever guidelines the Wikimedia Foundation have developed for doing so. ''R.I.P. Simple Wikiquote. So it goes…'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I also agree that it ought to be deleted. About three years ago, after the [[m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Simple English Wikiquote (3)|decision to "close" the project]] but before official policy for closures was adopted, I [[m:User talk:SPQRobin#Merging simple.wikiquote into en.wikiquote|discussed the final disposition]] of the ''WikiParaphrase'' project with a LangCom member, but I did not initiate formal proceedings at the time. If someone would like to do so, the official venue is at [[m:Proposals for closing projects]], and is governed by [[m:Closing projects policy]] under the auspices of [[m:Langcom|LangCom]] delegated by the Foundation Board. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:QoDList]] ==

This new template transcludes {{tl|QoDBar}} and is able to output a list of all Quotes Of The Day for a given month, via [[Module:QoD]]. So [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 2014]] and such wouldn't have to be handled manually. Do you support implementing it practically? --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
: It is not immediately obvious to me how this works. Viewing the new [[Template:QoDList]], the output of "#invoke:QoD|list" is null. I am guessing, from examining the code of [[Module:QoD]], that it depends on the context where the template is transcluded. Could you provide a sample page exemplifying use of the new template in a context where the module output is non-null, and consider fleshing out some documentation or usage notes at [[Template:QoDList/doc]] and/or [[Module:QoD/doc]]? Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]]: it depends on the page, but the month-year pair can also be specified manually (as <nowiki>{{#invoke:QoD|list|June 2013}}</nowiki>). You can see {{tl|QoDList}} in action on [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013]] ([{{fullurl:Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013|diff=1662309&oldid=1646908}} {{int:diff}}]). I also added some docs, feel free to edit them. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 15:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

== Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James ??? ==

[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=William_James&oldid=1664112&diff=prev DIFF] = Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James.

Does this community think this is too many images for a page?

Does the community feel this will cramp down on loading time for our readers, discouraging them from viewing pages on Wikiquote?

Does the community feel this will make load time difficult for editors, turning them off from editing Wikiquote?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:This member of this community does NOT think "this is too many images for a page." '''The VERY highly used Wikimedia Commons places FAR more images on a standard page.''' I can appreciate that some people who do not have fast connections (for whatever reasons this might be the case) will not easily appreciate ''many'' of the pages on the internet with graphics. Yet I do not believe that these relative few who do not use some auxiliary browsers set for faster browsing without images, to hasten the time of downloading pages without such graphics as are quite standard on MOST web-pages today, should keep our pages permanently crippled to a highly constrained standards which might have made some sense 10 years ago, but are hardly appropriate today. '''I believe nothing is more likely to be "turning anyone off" from editing Wikiquote than such bossiness with constraints as a ''very few'' people have been increasingly pushing here in recent years — by which they can control more of what others can or cannot do, and reducing the options available to others here in ways I have frankly found disgusting and contemptible, and often extremely hypocritical — and I am quite ready to make plain some of the reasons why in the coming months.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Whatever the merits or faults of the policy, it's clear that this part of it has frequently been ignored by some editors:

::"'''Dispute resolution''' An image that is not a literal representation of the subject of the page may be removed by any editor who believes it to be inappropriate. Thereafter, it should not be re-added without first obtaining consensus on the article talk page."

Perhaps it might be better to follow established and unambiguous policy rather than ignore it merely because (apparently) an editor doesn't like it? - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

:: '''I have sometimes engaged in [[w:direct action|direct action]] of rather mild and moderate [[civil disobedience]] in accord with the principles of [[Justice]] and [[Liberty]] that others seem quite satisfied to give little more than a lot of shallow and safe "lip service" to.''' In this particular case, I view "the merits or faults of the policy" that was devised by a few people some months ago as nothing more or less than thoughtlessly or deliberately giving free reign to those most eager to '''[[Censorship|censor]]''', VANDALIZE and remove any traces of MANY of the IDEAS and ''efforts'' of others to make generally important points and generally appealing presentations of the quotes here.''' I am actually inclined to use far harsher terms, but restrain myself for now.''' Even at the start I recognized these proposed "rules" as contemptible and unworthy of any significant respect, as simply devices providing ''implicit'' sanction and approval to the most narrow-minded, intolerant and malicious of people, most eager to denigrate the contributions of others, to destroy as rapidly as they could, and with VERY little consideration, what others might have taken months or years of careful consideration to gradually produce. '''I truly consider the fact that so inanely destructive and foully ''[[fascist]]'' an "ideal" and ''practice'' as those INNATELY unjust "policies" represent have not been recognized as such by others as simply disgraceful.''' Such an atmosphere created by the increasing arrogance and smug intolerance of those who seek to control and constrain others, and the bafflement and disgust of those who wish to contribute in the spirit of liberty advocated by the greatest of people, and which was one of the foundational principles of the wiki software, and the Wikimedia projects themselves is what I believe far more people than myself find appalling and sometimes discouraging.

:: Prior to the above statement I was going to make this relevant point: A standard setting at Wikimedia Commons, which is the source of all the imagery available to us, provides 200 image thumbnails to a page, and such is what I get quite swiftly when I click on '''[[commons:Category:Nature|Category:Nature]]'''. This once could mean a very long download time, but certainly does not with most users who are likely to do much browsing on the internet at all today. I certainly do not plan to use that many on any article page here — but to make large pages with even dozens of images on them, which are relatively rare and probably always will be, seem incredibly burdensome to most users is something I believe is ludicrous. I would probably spend more time saying a bit more, but I have to be leaving now, and am already running a bit late on important matters. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::I agree with the comment by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. However with regards to this particular page I will leave it to others to hopefully take action here regarding the violations of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] that have taken place, as noted by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Block ==

Please block [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:YODO_(You_Only_Die_Once) User:YODO (You Only Die Once)], this user is obviously immature, one example is stating in one of his edit summaries: ''Get a life you sockpuppet!''. I spoke with DanielTom at Meta. I will be here to revert his vandal-edits. To be honest, I don't care if I engage in an edit war. The administrators here are not very active. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Goldenburg111]] ([[User talk:Goldenburg111|talk]]) 18:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:Looks like no admin is around right now, so I've blocked that user for one day. Please review the action and take (if needed) further action. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 20:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:I yet blocked another user: [[User:Tell me about it!]]. As above, review the action taken and adjust it as you seem it fits. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks, both have been re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Personally, I would do a 3 month block, but that's me. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks, I just issued another block on {{user|DarknessFalls74}}. As with the two above, please review the action taken and adjust it as needed. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks, the user is re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback ==

I am requesting rollback permission is so I can easily rollback vandal edits. I also "participated in the [[User:YODO (You Only Die Once)]] vandal attack", and it was pretty hard undoing his edits and I usually got into edit conflicts. Clarifying that Rollback Rights are given to users to easily revert '''pure''' vandalism. I just tagged a few spam pages for deletion and reverted a vandal-only account's action of a page recently. I am also a rollbacker on the Simple English Wiktionary, and of course, I would be in big trouble if I was lying. I am an Anti-Vandal Worker at Meta and Wikipedia. I am also an admin and bureaucrat on the Orian Test Wiki and admin at the Test Wiki. I am also, at Wikia, currently an admin on 10 wikis and crat on 5 of those wikis. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:The best thing for you to do would be to request Adminship at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] so that the merits of your request can be discussed and determined. My sense is that you have made many positive edits and reverted plenty of vandalism. The only question might be the relatively short period of time in which you have been editing here, but that may or may not be a large stumbling block. In the end, it would be best to formally request it and let the discussion begin. Good luck. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]])
::Okay, thanks UDScott, one question, can I take this subject off? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I would just leave it and maybe direct readers to the [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] page, should they wish to contribute to the discussion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@UDScott: I feel it is unwise to encourage Golden to run for adminship so prematurely, as he wouldn't stand a chance (despite his best intentions), and the result could upset him. @Golden: even if you don't have rollback rights, you can still revert vandalism. I know you want to help out, but please try to be patient. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::@DanielTom: As quoted by Jimbo Wales, "no big deal". --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Goldenburg111 does not realise that on WQ, only admins can be granted rollback.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:(Is this true? Abramsky, what do your <s>elf</s> admin eyes [[Special:UserRights|see]]?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:: It is not a separately grantable user right at Wikiquote: there is no "Rollbacker" user group like at Wikipedia. Rollback is included in the rights of the Administrator group, as shown at [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. (The corresponding configuration at Wikipedia is much more complex and [[Bureaucracy|bureaucratic]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Request for comment on Commons: Should Wikimedia support MP4 video? ==

''I apologize for this message being only in English. Please translate it if needed to help your community.''

The Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Multimedia|multimedia team]] seeks community guidance on a proposal to support the [[w:MP4|MP4 video format]]. This digital video standard is used widely around the world to record, edit and watch videos on mobile phones, desktop computers and home video devices. It is also known as [[w:MP4|H.264/MPEG-4 or AVC]].

Supporting the MP4 format would make it much easier for our users to view and contribute video on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects -- and video files could be offered in dual formats on our sites, so we could continue to support current open formats (WebM and Ogg Theora).

However, MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, and using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only supporting open formats on our sites -- even though the licenses appear to have acceptable legal terms, with only a small fee required.

We would appreciate your guidance on whether or not to support MP4. Our Request for Comments presents views both in favor and against MP4 support, based on opinions we’ve heard in our discussions with community and team members.

[[commons:Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video|Please join this RfC -- and share your advice]].

All users are welcome to participate, whether you are active on Commons, Wikipedia, other Wikimedia project -- or any site that uses content from our free media repository.

You are also welcome to join tomorrow's [[m:IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours|Office hours chat on IRC]], this Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC, if you would like to discuss this project with our team and other community members.

We look forward to a constructive discussion with you, so we can make a more informed decision together on this important topic. [[m:User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


: I am not sure anyone here is qualified to translate from English to Quotish, but if somebody wants to give it a try.... ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Global sysops ==

Hello Wikiquote community!

As you may have seen, I recently blocked some accounts on this project in my capacity as [[m:Stewards|steward]]. In the light of the fact that this project has only few really active sysops, I'd like to suggest you to allow [[m:Global sysops|global sysops]] acting on your project. Those users are being elected on meta to help small projects with the removal of vandalism etc. They're generally supposed to not act like a normal locally elected admin and will mostly only act in emergencies. I could imagine that this would help here from time to time. While I'm technically able to issue blocks or delete page (just as any other steward), I feel rather uncomfortable doing this, as I'd rather see that done by local people.

I could very well imagine that this would help here. Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed and the same would be needed to remove them at any point when needed. Please take your time and consider this idea carefully. If you've any further questions, please feel free to ping me. Kind regards, -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:Barras, why would you feel uncomfortable blocking obvious rampant vandals? I agree with you, that it should be preferably done "by local people", but global sysops aren't "local" either, and I don't understand how global sysops would do a better job in answering emergencies and stopping rampant vandals than stewards do (besides, as far as I know, there are many more stewards than global sysops). Recent vandalism spree aside (which was done by sockpuppets that need to be checked and blocked), I believe the ideal solution is to have more ''local'' active admins, which is why I suggested [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] to run for adminship again. (At least that would be my preference.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Stewards can't watch everything, simply put. Global sysops help fill in the gaps of steward coverage, which I believe was one reason the group was created in the first place.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]|[[:m:User talk:Jasper Deng|meta]]) 04:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:I would support adding GS, but I have a COI as I am one myself. ;) See my contributions for all the stuff I could have blocked if this wiki were opted-in. Of course, it's up to the community. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Per PiRSquared17. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Smaller projects should always opt in for Global Sysops, since it is not that simple to get more active local admins. Should the en.q community start a discussion about opting in, I would support (and I have no COI). --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Global sysops cheapen local adminship, and only in cases of the utmost necessity (e.g. really small wikis) should they be opted-in. I, for one, tend to think that any help fighting vandalism should be welcomed. Unfortunately, judging by recent comments on a local unrelated discussion, we can't even expect stewards to stay neutral, let alone global sysops. There are further problems, related to WQ's specific policies, which I'm not even going to get into. I would like to highlight, though, that the description of global sysops as "''highly trusted users''" should make any thinking person suspicious. Just when did we elect these global sysops? I don't remember voting for any of them myself. Sure, there are some very well-meaning, good users in this group, for example [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|Érico Júnior Wouters]] and [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]]. But I can also see a couple of names I very strongly ''distrust'', of cruel unhelpful people whose apparent job it is to collect hats, and whom I very much doubt would ''ever'' be elected local sysops via normal process. That's my warning, for what it's worth (not much). I think GS should only be opted in after a strong consensus for it amongst our established admins. (I doubt such a consensus will ever be achieved, but who knows.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Global sysopship (along with global rollback and some other global groups) is requested on [[m:SRGP]]. For example, [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_PiRSquared17|my request]], [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_.C3.89rico_J.C3.BAnior_Wouters|Érico]]'s request. Anyone can comment on a candidate. Global sysops ''only ever act'' (in theory) when the request is uncontroversial (such as spam/vandalism) and no local admins are around to deal with it. Does that answer some of your questions? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well, as you know, Meta elections are kind of a joke. People who'd have no chance of being elected admins at Wikipedia again get elected global sysops... And although it is said that if we opt-in, we can then also opt-out, it's more of a one-way street, as I think it would be very difficult to establish a consensus to opt-out afterwards. Obviously global sysops can't be locally desysopped, so we need to be careful. Your description of what they can do seems misleading. It appears to me that global sysops can act without being requested, and they don't just revert obvious vandalism, but also engage in "routine maintenance" (their purpose per policy), which in turn means they, who are not familiar with Wikiquote's policies, may end up deleting pages they shouldn't. And again, it's not as if we can't ask the help of stewards to block vandals in case of emergency. It also seems to me that Wikiquote is actually [[m:Global sysops#Scope|out of scope]] for GS, and I would very much like to hear what our local admins think of this proposal, though I doubt they will be so blunt as me in saying that it threatens Wikiquote's independence. I still think the solution for Wikiquote is through local admins, and if global sysops are so eager to help (*cough*), they can go through the normal process and be elected here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: To clear up a couple misunderstandings:
:::# [[m:Global sysops|Global sysops]] are not elected. They are appointed by Stewards after taking public comment. They serve at the pleasure of the Stewards, assisting with their workload by handling routine tasks that do not require more advanced rights.
:::# Wikiquote is not out of scope. Any project can opt in or opt out: the default described in the policy applies only to projects that do not opt either way.
::: Whether you trust the Stewards to appoint people who can be trusted to respect the bounds of their role, whether you trust the Stewards to step in if someone exceeds those bounds, that is your call. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Global sysops perform routine maintenance. That is their purpose. In practice, this amounts to spam, vandalism/long-term abuse, and noncontroversial routine requests. If enwikiquote is opted in, GS will surely respect local policies, but you can't expect us to read every single wiki's policies before acting. At least I haven't (but I do usually look at the deletion reason dropdown to see if they have a similar "speedy deletion" criterion to what I will use. I almost never block.). Usually the stuff we do is completely noncontroversial, and we tend only to act in emergencies or when local admins are unavailable. [[m:Special:WikiSets/7]]: enwikiquote and plwikiquote are the only Wikiquotes opted out of GS help. Ningauble is correct that any project can opt in or out. The scope on Meta is just the default. Also: being a global sysop is much easier and less complicated than being a local admin on (English or another large) Wikipedia, as you mentioned. Global sysops ''only'' do noncontroversial maintenance tasks, whereas an admin on enwiki is expected to be able to determine consensus, deal with private matters, act in controversial cases or in drama like ANI, etc. In fact becoming a steward might [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chenzw/Reports/Draubb&diff=prev&oldid=7138137 be easier] than having a successful enwiki RfA. Do you think [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Global_permissions&oldid=7271149#Global_sysop_for_JurgenNL this] ongoing RFGS is a joke? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, I'm glad to see two global sysops (Rschen and yourself) admitting that becoming a ''steward'' (=> access to IPs) could be much easier than getting ''adminship'' – good heavens! am I the only one who thinks something is terribly wrong here? If this is true of stewards, it must be even more so of global sysops, and I might add I personally am shocked and offended to see that someone like Rschen is a global sysop. Opting in will be something of a historical moment for WQ, because in truth there is no turning back, even if ''theoretically'' we could opt out again – who would then be willing to oppose global sysops?, how would we ever reach that consensus? In any case, those were just a few observations before our admins gave their opinions, and as they apparently don't seem to mind GS being opted in, it might just be that you'll have your wish. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::If you're going to attack me, at least get my quote right - I said that it is much easier than getting adminship ''on en.wikipedia''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Not sure, who "attacks" who. I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Daniel_Tom%C3%A9&diff=559458856&oldid=559445353 this]. Pretending that a public rename is a sock, just to defame my real name, that seems to me much more of an "attack" than my saying I am offended that you are are in any position of responsibility. I see you keep trying to collect hats, and that after recently failing to get CU on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get ''stewardship'' at Meta. What a disgrace. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Who is attacking who is you. What Rschen did at that particular diff is standard practise at enwiki, if a user is deemed a sock, they are tagged. The fact the account existed even a rename means the account exists ergo, a sockpuppet. The fact Rschen failed to get CU is like me failing to get rollback here and then asking for Bureaucrat at Wikidata, they have 0% relation. Also your description of Rschen actually willing to help out Wikimedia is the disgrace here. Good faith volunteers deserve credit, not defamatory comments. Now that is said, get back to doing something constructive unlike we've seen at metawiki. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: The guy who admits to never editing articles tells me to go do "something constructive". Why do you show up here, just to share your ignorance on the difference between socks and public renames? I challenge ''you'' to try and make a single edit to an article before commenting here again and embarrassing yourself further. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Whether I edit articles now or not is '''my''' choice. Nothing for you to comment on simply because you're losing the 'but mom, Rschen is the one being mean!' battle. Oh and yes, maybe I don't edit articles but hey, I am constructive. I do SWMT work, did a month of administrator work at a small wiki and do some-what active work on Wikidata. And on enwiki, I active help new users get accounts. See, I give people accounts not create them for myself and then abuse them. Now, as I said, be constructive anyway you want except through derogatory comment at Rschen and arguing about how people follow polices when dealing with clearly abusive users. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: You still haven't made even 1 edit to articles, and most likely never will. Calling me abusive doesn't count as an article edit. You have nothing to contribute to Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why don't '''both''' of you stop? Instead of bickering? You guys are acting like children here! I would suggest both of you stop this pointless discussion. Wikiquote's Village Pump is not for both of you to bicker about pointless stuff. I expect better from both of you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:35, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Just shut up about god damn editing of articles. I am not violating policies by not doing it. Last comment here. Future comments I'd like at my talk page. If not, I'll just move them over. Peace. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Did I hit a nerve? Do you feel embarrassed for never editing articles? I certainly would. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
* I would not be averse to opting in. Having been unable to give as much time to Wikiquote myself in recent months as in previous years, no longer being able to review the entire RC log every day, I have a sense that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
*: ''Non sequitur'', as global sysops can ''already'' patrol recent changes, just like any other user; problem is, most of them ''just don't bother to'', and this is very unlikely to change even if we opt-in. (What would change is, someone who already patrols recent changes could notify them at Meta of vandal attacks, and they would then be able to step in and block the vandals. But if you think that global sysops are going to start magically reviewing every change to articles once they are opted-in, you are just fooling yourself.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*:: What follows from my observation is that I believe a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, more things than when I was patrolling more. I did not say, and it does not follow (''non sequitur'') that global sysops would patrol in the manner that I used to do, nor that nothing would slip through the cracks. Things have always slipped through the cracks anyway. What would follow is more [[w:Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates#Popular culture: the legend of the boy and the dike|little Dutch boys]] plugging more of the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*::I'm sure [[m:SWMT]] will monitor enwikiquote, if it doesn't already. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
*:::It does since yesterday (a contributor from this wiki requested it to be added on IRC). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
* I agree. I think the benefits of having off-project admins able to step in and stop vandalism outweigh any downside. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*: These global sysops can already revert vandalism, they just don't do it, because they don't patrol WQ's recent changes. They would only be of help in case someone who does patrol it should ask them to block rampant vandals. But for this there already are stewards, who are more in number than global sysops. Opting in will be a historically bad decision. WQ is almost the only wiki standing independent, like a diamond in the desert, but you seem to be willing to trade its independence for nothing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*Agree with these comments by {{u|Ningauble}} and {{u|BD2412}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to close this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
* Late here, but I'm also in support of opting in here.  [[User:Hazard-SJ|Hazard]] [[User talk:Hazard-SJ|SJ]]  20:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am not adamantly hostile to the idea, but I really have not as yet examined the issues involved much, and certainly would not wish to rush into opting in. As there is at least one prominent editor who I generally respect who seems adamantly opposed, I remain reluctant to support it at this point. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*:That's fine, take your time. There's no rush to decide whether you want GS or not, obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone else would comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

* In the light of the recent events concerning the request to a global block, I am far from convinced that global sysops and their supporters can overcome the cultural differences. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Global sysops have nothing to do with global blocking or locking. That is a steward thing. Yes, stewards and global sysops have some things in common, but really there is a huge difference. However, I can see how this would change your opinion of Meta, cross-wiki maintenance, etc. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
* I personally don't feel this wiki has a need for a GS opt-in and looking at [[Special:ActiveUsers]] I would rather refuse to perform any actions here. Unless the community wants the GS to play a significant role in countervandalism work (which I don't expect) I am not supporting any movement towards an opt-in. Please also note my COI in this case. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Thanks for your comments, Vogone. I would generally agree, except in cases where a vandal is around when no admins are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
As a strong believer in democracy, and in the independence of each wiki, I would like to urge everyone again to be extra careful here. Many people try to interfere with wiki processes and decision making in ways we are not (and can't even be) aware of. If you want an example, see [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34220 this leaked discussion] of ArbCom, and read what they say about Wikiquote. This has happened before, and will happen again, sooner or later. Everyone has their own interests in mind, which is fine, but ''we'' responsible Wikiquote editors should resist and not give away power to outsiders needlessly, and do our best to keep the Wikiquote project as independent as possible. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*::Being a global sysop is completely different from being on the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. Global sysops only deal with spam (including spambots, linkspam, etc.) and vandalism. I do not know exactly what made Barras start this discussion, but please note that nobody is trying to force this on you. If you decide against it, that's fine, but GS are experienced and willing to help with tasks that most would find tedious. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
*Would a local admin like to review the discussion above? Once that happens, if there is consensus to opt-in, stewards can remove enwq from the opt-out list. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 07:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
*:Bump. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 12:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
*::[[User:Mdd|Mdd]]: update? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
*:::@PiRSquared. I think Wikiquote will benefit from Global sysops's the most, if the most active users and local sysops's here see the need, and would welcome this initiative. At the moment only half of them do, and the other half have some kind of doubt. When it comes to granting administrator rights here on Wikiquote, there must be more consensus to do so.
*:::Now in the first comment here Barras explained "Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed". Frankly I don't see this discussion as a vote. I am used (at the Dutch Wikipedia), that before some kind of vote started, there first must be an announcement at the Village pump; And I have more or less considered this discussion as such an announcement. Shouldn't a real vote be held at a page, such as [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]], during a limited period? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::::As far as I see it, only clear consensus in favour of opting in to GS needs to be provided. Which process the community undergoes to reach that is probably irrelevant to the stewards and at the discretion of the local community. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 19:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:::::Let it be clear, that the vote Barras suggested hasn't taken place; In such a situation it would be not appropriate to let a local administrator review this discussion, as Ajraddatz suggested. There is in my opinion no clear consensus about either the procedure, either about the subject to opt-in the Global sysops here. Let it also be clear that only a handful of active Wikiquote users have participated in this matter. In order to get more clearance, and a larger participation I propose to start a vote at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] for a period of a week, which can be accepted when 75% of the participants agree. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
[[File:Piazza del Plebiscito - Augusto De Luca.jpg|frameless|right]]
Another argument against opting-in: global sysops have recently been deleting a userpage by a user, consisting of a simple picture (right), on hundreds of wikis, claiming it is spam. Here too, the userpage was tagged for deletion, by a global sysop [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Augusto_De_Luca&diff=1701918&oldid=1700992], with the rationale: "crosswiki spam". The speedy deletion was declined, replace by a Prod, and now a [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca|VfD]] is taking place. I predict the page will eventually be deleted. But then, you ask, wasn't tagging the page, suggesting that it be deleted, proper after all? Yes, it was. Then what is the problem? The problem, you see, is that it was only tagged, and not outright deleted, because global sysops are not opted in here. (I say, we should keep it that way.) Each community should be allowed to weigh in, and decide for themselves what to do in cases like this... ''roar''... ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Global sysops usually don't delete pages on wikis with local active sysops even if the wikis are opted-in. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 11:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*[[User:Barras]]: as stated by [[User:Mdd]]. No. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Admin nomination of Kalki ==

As some are aware, I was once an admin here (from 29 January 2004 to 1 December 2009), and I have now nominated myself to regain adminship at '''[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship‎‎ |Requests for adminship‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

----

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] states that "Adminship nominations must be posted for '''at least one week''', to provide opportunity for comments and voting, before a bureaucrat will make the promotion if warranted". This sets a minimum time but not a maximum. We have routinely allowed these discussions to stay open for longer times, to allow the community the greatest opportunity to find and weigh in on the discussion (see, e.g., [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Mdd]]). Indeed, since your request for closure, an additional opinion has been offered which has changed the proportion of support from 66.7% to 60%. I would give it a few more days. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, sounds good. Thank you, {{u|BD2412}}, I'll defer to your judgement. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== User Creation Logs ==

We need an active sysop to block the recent account creations. Since YODO was blocked, we have been getting some recent vandals here. Any opinions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yeah, there's definitely a vandal/sock attack currently. I'm watching and can get stewards if needed. Maybe [[User:Jni]] could help...? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[User:Mdd|Mdd]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::And thank you both. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'll be online for next couple hours and can help with pest control for sure! I was tracing one sock/vandal from en-wp to here in fact. I've been mostly inactive for few years so please tell me if I do something stupid with the admin tools. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I am thinking about adding a template where we can place it on a user talk page saying that their name is not appropriate for wikiquote. But we need a sysop to block the inappropriate username. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions ==

Anyone can contribute to [[User:Goldenburg111/Wikiquote in 2014]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
: The page says "This page is to document issues with Wikiquote since January 1, 2014." What kind of issues? I for one think that we need a complete top down reimagining of the software, so that quotes can be sorted by every kind of data (topic, author, date, kind of work, etc.). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Issues = Sockpuppetry, canvassing by Cirt at Meta, causing drama and disruption. Different sockpuppeters and new accounts made for vandalism. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::: It's your userspace, you're free to do as you will with it. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment:''' I understand that Kalki and I have had disagreements over interpretations of his behavior patterns in the past. For this reason after much thought I've decided not to comment further upon the ongoing RFA. I'll instead respectfully defer to the community in the discussion there. Have a great day, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::: While it's your userspace, you can collect notes of that nature there if want to, but is it really that constructive activity? Sounds like stirring more drama and disruption. Sockpuppet notice board might be useful though, especially tracking for cross-wiki sockpuppeteers. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 10:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thank you jni for clarifying, is it okay to add notes about main points instead of specific users being "called out"? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is certainly better than calling out individual users. But I'd avoid even creating such a page in first place. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think there is any policy forbidding user's maintaining bulletin/notice board kind of pages in their user space (and I'd hate bureaucrazy like that here). [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 15:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Citation error ==

Hey, I've got no idea what's wrong with the citations over at [[Stephenie LaGrossa]]. All I did was copy it over from Wikipedia. Is citation style different here? [[User:Survivorfan1995|Survivorfan1995]] ([[User talk:Survivorfan1995|talk]]) 18:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hi. You forgot to add <nowiki><references/></nowiki>, but in any case Wikiquote's [[Wikiquote:Templates#Formatting guidelines|formatting guidelines]] are a bit different than those of Wikipedia, so I've re-formatted the article accordingly. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

== Activist group public relations announcement being put forward as a 'quote' ==

As shown in [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Abortion&diff=0&oldid=1674179 this edit], an IP editor is repeatedly inserting an announcement by an anti-abortion activist organization, an announcement that is not notable, nor is it traceable to a single person. As such, I don't think it can be called a quote. This IP editor has in the past repeatedly tussled with me over the attribution of abortion quotes, challenging the findings of Ann D. Gordon who is the top scholar on Susan B. Anthony's life. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== WikiProject Name Confusion ==

Hi Wikiquote and all of it's fellow members! I am thinking about a Wikiquote WikiProject. I want to create a wikiproject that encourages users to clean up at least one article in a week. In a few months, the cleanup categories would be blank! I am still struggling on the name of the project. Any suggestions for the name? Or any suggestion on the Project itself? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:How about WikiProject Weekly Cleanup? Direct and to the point. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks BD2 for your suggestions. I think that's a good name. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's one as well WikiProject: Article Cleanup project? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] 22:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: I think we've preferred to call them pages rather than articles here (to contrast with Wikipedia's "article" space and Wiktionary's "entry" space). Come to think of it, we really don't have the tradition of WikiProjects here that Wikipedia does, although we could surely use some. For example, we could coordinate with [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Law|WikiProject Law]] and [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine|WikiProject Medicine]] to improve our pages covering these specific fields. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I bet this one would benefit Wikiquote easily. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]] ==

You may feel free to join! Any suggestions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom]] ==
Hello, per [[m:Global bans]], a general requirement of a global bans request for comment is notify all projects where the user subject to the ban has editied. DanielTom is either an active editor or a past editor of this wiki and therefore I am notifying the project of this proposal. Everyone is welcome to go and voice their opinion of the proposal and about the user in general. Thanks, [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:Global bans can create serious consequences, I'd urge users to look at this ban proposal. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I have left my own comment of opposition to [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom|this '''''there''''']], and like '''Abd''' have requested a speedy dismissal of this as a quite unwarranted request. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Reading distorted descriptions of yourself painted in the worst possible light can be slightly amusing, or extremely depressing, considering how other people might take this garbage seriously. If anything, this shows how extremely unwise it is to edit under anything close to your real name, though I'm sure most people here don't need to be reminded of that. Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented there, I appreciate it. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
: I am glad to see you're back and this particular nonsense has ended. I would advise remaining ''cautious'' though. I, for years, have put up with some nonsense which in some ways has not been quite that immediately consequential — and am willing to continue to do so, with confidence that when truths are sufficiently assessed, whatever the faults or deficiencies I might have inadvertently manifested in the courses of events will clearly be perceived to not be the most grievous ones. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
* I am glad the ban request was quickly withdrawn before I wasted any time drafting an explanation of why it was a mistake. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am also glad, that this ban request is withdrawn. It would be nice if these past events would be resolved instead of keep coming back. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

== Main Page Images ==

The average number of images per quote of the day has gotten quite high, with there being 10 separate images on January 30 (which were, to this user, very difficult to look at). Was there ever a consensus reached about the number/size/quality of images on the main page, and if so, is it being followed? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
: Extensive discussion in 2011–2012 reached an apparent consensus that this is too much, but not how much is ok. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_35#Images_on_Main_Page] [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_36#Main_Page_and_images]) This nonspecific consensus was enforced for a time by removing ''all'' images pending adoption of a specific policy. Images returned to the main page just under a year ago, without any policy or guideline, and attempts to moderate their quantity have been reverted. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Wikiquote:Quote_of_the_day.2FApril_2013_-_lay_out]) In short: (1) no, there is no express consensus for what should be included, and (2) no, consensus for what should not be included, vague though it be, is not being followed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' I do not think the attempts to moderate the quantity of images on the Main Page should have been reverted. It is quite frustrating to see a community consensus summarily reverted and arbitrarily ignored. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I have followed the discussion on and off for the past few years, and I understand the two sides - that there is a consensus, and there is a very active minority that doesn't care for that consensus. Can we (well, you, since I'm not qualified) actually create a policy that reflects the consensus, or at the very least limits the number/size/quality of images (say, one on each side and a small one above and below, which, though still excessive, at least leaves the front page readable)? Or, alternatively, is it not even worth it? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 19:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::I echo the concerns of {{user|132.177.170.36}} and agree with the comments made here. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
----
I find the comments on this issue in this section rather misleading in various ways, but especially reject the implied assertions that any actual wide ranging consensus was arrived at after any substantial or extensive periods of active debate, despite the periods of months or years during which these contentions have sometimes VERY briefly occurred, and gone largely ignored by others, either unaware of them, or too disinterested or intimidated by the intensity of opinions to get involved.

Though sometimes I can do some rather quickly, It often takes much work and considerable effort and thought to produce a good layout, and I confess I do not always succeed to my own satisfaction with the materials available, but for many years I have done what I could with the quotes available here and the images available at the commons, and I believe that this service is a generally valued and appreciated one, based upon the comments of people with as yet little or no personal involvement here in the issue.

On 31 January 2012, there was an act of aggressive and arrogant '''''[[censorship]]''''' which was suddenly imposed by one admin who I believe simply sensed an opportunity to further harass and constrain my activities here with but little complaint likely from others most actively involved in these matters at the time. Clearly without much regard for permitting any further discussions, and inclined to take the most radically severe steps available, he decided to destructively edit what I believe was a quite good and relevant layout for February 3, a few minutes after I posted it:
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:DonMcLeanWestport2009.jpg|222px]] [[Image:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:SépultureCathelineau.JPG|121px]] ''I went down to the [[Holiness|sacred]] store Where I'd heard the [[music]] years before But the [[man]] there said the music wouldn't play And in the streets the [[children]] screamed The [[Love|lovers]] cried and the [[poets]] [[Dreams|dreamed]] But not a [[Words|word]] was [[Speaking|spoken]] The [[church]] [[bells]] all were broken And the three men I [[Admiration|admire]] most [[w:American Pie (song)|The Father, Son and Holy Ghost]] They caught the last [[Trains|train]] for the coast [[w:The Day the Music Died|The Day the Music Died]].'' ~ [[Don McLean]] ~ [[File:HollyMonument.jpg|121px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Buddy holly.jpg|234px]] [[File:American apple pie.jpg|234px]]
|}

'''After this edit ONLY the text remained, and ''none'' of the relevant imagery, which I had chosen to honor these artists and to commemorate some of the themes and ideas of their music.''' I myself, if I remember correctly, was in a hurry, and unable to edit it further, and had to leave soon after that.

I am able and willing to work with anyone, but I do anger somewhat at what I perceive to be various forms of injustice and hypocrisy which do arise all to frequently where people are not confronted with each other in face to face dialogue, and many rules can be rather extravagantly grown and even more extravagantly ignored or dismissed while some of the most aggressively denigrative of people are focussing upon and magnifying the relatively minor breaches of rules or merely expectations which others make.

This led to my DISGUST at the foully presumptive forms of impulses towards what I believe to be improper censorship and constraints which were becoming far more evident and boldly practiced on this site, which was founded and had existed for years quite uncontroversially as a wiki with acceptance of MAXIMAL freedoms of editors and MINIMAL rule by any officials, and led to my decision not to even bother adding them for at least a few days or weeks, when I believed I might have more time to address some of the precise quantitative restrictions which were being proposed in regard to various rather nebulous qualitative issues.

Further acts of abusive destruction occurred so regularly in the period after that, It was actually over a year, before I began adding images to the QOTD again partially in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 2013|March 2013]], and fully in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/April 2013|April]], [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/May 2013|May]], and ever since then, and once again, received more compliments than complaints, but those few who seem eager and willing to oppose these layouts have again banded together, while those who are not involved and perhaps do not wish to be involved in such contentious matters have remained unaware or uninvolved, as is their right.

Though I can honestly recognize that the layouts are not always so well developed or well honed as further time might permit, and I myself would have simplified some of them, but certainly not merely to decrease their visual size, had I had more time to consider things.

I also believe that over the years I have certainly received ''FAR more'' compliments both publicly and in private for my graphic presentations than complaints about them, despite the relatively few disparaging remarks a year that have arisen here because of them, and which have often been seized upon by those very little involvement here generally beyond supporting the constraints of others, and who seem most zealous to find ways to rigorously constrain and suppress some forms of presentation options.

I believe that there are now attempts by those who are often involved in little more than devising constraints and rules to bind others in such ways as they themselves would not find binding or uncomfortable at all to group together and impose their will suddenly and vigorously, as has sometimes occurred in the past.

'''This issue as well as others are some I believe should be elaborated upon more extensively in the coming weeks and months, and sufficient time for arguments to be presented and considered, and matters settled with more widespread involvement.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

: Kalki, to me, those pictures of american pies have too bright a color—they really do distract one's attention from the quote. And this is Wiki''quote''. All I can say, regarding this issue, is that ''I'' personally would do the QOTD layout differently, with fewer and smaller pictures, and more emphasis on the quote (incl. source). But Kalki has been the only one doing the QOTDs, for many years, and of course he is doing what looks ''to him'' the best. I don't think it's possible to convince Kalki that he is "wrong". ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I am still around, but quite later than I planned to be at getting started on several things elsewhere, and just briefly noting that I do believe matters can and should be more elaborately discussed, and in my relatively few contentions with people on what the best images available for pages have been, have always been willing to reach acceptable compromises or agreements, where alternatives are presented, but I believe efforts to rigorously constrain or entirely eliminate the use of imagery are very detrimental for many reasons, and I am willing to specify many reasons why later. I ''must'' get going now. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I hardly recognized Don McLean - I think Kalki does brilliant work and the images draw my eye to the word content -clumsily put, I mean draw mw to the whole thing, so the words get read - still I suppose there were iconoclasts who went round smashing in stained glass windows - some people seem puritan by nature and theres probably no pleasing them. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I thank you much for your appreciation. And I would note that I do believe images always serve as windows to a far more expansive range of ideas than text quotes alone usually do, and that is one of many reasons I believe them desirable. And I know that I am not alone in referring to photographs and graphic art works as "visual quotation" though the concept apparently remains unfamiliar to most. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
: There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum. I look forward to the actual exercise of Kalki's professed ability and willingness to work with anyone on this issue, so that a meaningful compromise may be found between [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1405414 no images at all] and [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=1580787 overwhelming that which is ostensibly being presented]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::''[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1678350&oldid=1678327 "There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum."]''. I for one strongly agree with these comments by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
[[File:N3 Etech05 Larry.jpg|thumb|It's a bumper sticker culture. People have to get it like that, and if they don't, if it takes three seconds to make them [[understand]], you're off their radar screen. ~ [[Larry Lessig]] ]]
::: Oh, my sometimes obviously passionate intensity in asserting honest opinions as effectively as I can against what I perceive to be various forms of error, false suppositions, or deliberate deceits can sometimes be very intimidating I suppose, but there obviously is no way that there is any attempt to intimidate in what an official admin might declare in imperious tones of condescension of apparently "Authoritative Objectivity" to anyone who disagrees with their own particular ranges of opinion or will. Seconded by another "admin" who in my honest opinion relies upon various forms of flattery and intimidation to retain what prestige, position and power he has attained. "Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum." That surely is PURELY objective and neutral assertion, simply asserted against the uncivil act of anyone arguing extensively against any one else's position — it seems no one could even conceivably or rationally disagree with that. ''Sarcasm intended here'' — yet I hope some of my silliness in presenting these sincere observations can be forgiven, as I forgive others for sometimes being so damned imperiously somber and officiously censorious about things. '''I generally like people, even many of those who often strongly disagree with me, and I like there being a variety of ideas and attitudes available to people — and as most artists would assert, images provide ways to introduce some of these to people in ways that would otherwise not occur.'''
::: That there actually might be people who find things more interesting with some indications of aspects of the quote they might not have known about or considered through the use of imagery, is something to be dismissed as mere "distraction" and promotion of "distraction", and such arguments merely "digression" from such hard and fast rules as some people wish to establish in a project that was created as one of many with implicit and sometimes EXPLICIT directives to avoid the hang-ups of having too many hard and fast rules — which the wise know can often be abused by people very casually in very many ways, against which most people often have little recourse.
::: '''I quote [[Larry Lessig]] with an image to emphasize that imagery IS useful in drawing people to contemplate the quote associated with the imagery, in ways text alone would NOT.''' As to compromises, I will try to refrain from more than 4 or 5 images, when there is no need for them to frame the text: there are generally 4 regions on the QOTD layout where images can be presented. I usually, but not always, attempt to use all of these to at least some extent, though until recently I usually preferred rather minor images above and below the quote, and I admit that sometimes I clearly have overdone things in ways that are not the best aesthetic arrangements possible. Usually that was because I was trying to present significant ideas which were relevant to the quote being used, or simply significant images of the author of the statement or its subject. I believe 2 good solid blocks of imagery to either side is usually desirable, and can accept that I should not attempt to put too many images in the layout, merely to present ideas present or implied in the quotes; but on larger quotes especially more than one image to either side is sometimes necessary to properly frame the entire text, and on smaller quotes images to the top and bottom allow the text to be framed in such a way as draws one's attention to it further, in ways that would not exist without some imagery. I believe there should always be a minimum of two images, and a maximum of 4 regions of imagery, generally not to exceed 50% of the area of main page, and preferably less than an third of it, even though absolute rules on that would make me uncomfortable. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::(I'm the topic starter; I just registered my account.) What I'm getting from this discussion is that essentially we have no choice but to hope Kalki keeps things under control, then? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 14:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Though we obviously differ strongly in our opinions on this matter, I thank you for creating an account here, and welcome you as a participant. I would certainly phrase things differently, and assert rather bluntly, that in accord with the principles with which Wiki software and Wikimedia projects were founded and developed: '''I seek to keep things from being under too much needless or detrimental "control" by ''anyone'', including myself.''' I have certainly NOT sought to exert any extraordinary ''control'' of things which I am not actively involved in as a regularly concerned ''participant'', here or anywhere, and seek to rigorously control nothing so much as ''my own actions'', rather than that of others. '''Usually I have sought to find ways, through various venues, including this one, to INDICATE diverse views on Truth and Beauty, Meaning and Purpose, and not merely those I myself find most valid or appealing, though, like most people, I generally would favor these.''' I believe that IF things are perceptively reviewed without the prejudices of presuming things have to be under some sort of absolutist controls, by people assuming or wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY, I have persistently sought to keep many things from becoming rigorously controlled by such impulses, all of my life. And '''I did not seek to ''establish'' such principles of behavior here — the wiki software and the wiki projects were ''already'' quite ''explicitly'' established with such aims and procedures in mind''' — I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as I do not believe proper, in either rational or ethical senses. I believe that even if sometimes they are manifest in mild forms, there are many ways the impulses to overly control things have been detrimental in far more ways than are apparent by the casual examinations of those who out of fears, hatreds, resentments or merely minor irritation, are most inclined to find ways to absolutely judge, condemn and punish others are likely to practice, and which require the more extensive examination of those who are more tolerant, patient, and willing to forgive error, without needlessly punishing it, and prone to let many diverse forms of participation in presentations arise. I have just now created a page for '''[[Solomon Asch]]''', to accompany one I have started on '''[[Philip Zimbardo]]''', and one I have helped develop on '''[[Stanley Milgram]]''', each of whom have contributed major insights into social psychology and the various ways group pressures can often corrupt moral assessments and rational competence, and have helped develop general ideas of the cognition necessary for recognizing and combatting '''[[Groupthink]]''' excesses of control over individual volition and choices. I would recommend them to anyone interested in reviewing some of the fundamentals of social psychology. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks

::::::You claim to act against people "wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY" but then later say "I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as *I DO NOT BELIEVE PROPER*" (emphasis mine that time). You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others. Once you start acting upon what you do and do not believe proper, consensus becomes irrelevant. This is no longer a collaborative project, but one that is based on your whims and desires.

::::::I ask everyone: should it be the latter? And if not, what can we do about it? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Again, quite frankly — I quite ''honestly'' state that I, like everyone, act for the most part on my beliefs and impressions, rather than try to pretend to anyone that such a path is simply "horrific" and intolerable — and as I have indicated many times, I try to keep my beliefs reasonable and in maximal harmony with verifiable [[Truths]], the vital virtues of [[Humility]], [[Courage]], [[Honesty]] and [[Compassion]] and principles of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]], and to the extent any "collective" or "individual" opposes these, and insists on absolute conformity in ways that are not innately necessary, I believe that to be an error of the type I have been inclined to label foully fascist, arrogant, tyrannical, and terroristic since I was a very young child. I can forgive people for doing such things, but I do not provide them my willing consent or approval, and if I can find ways of doing so, I seek to find ways to help people rise out of such errors and embrace paths of greater grace, and genuine harmony which only can come about by respect for eternal and enduring truths rather than either collective or individual wills as to how to characterize or serve such truths. I believe you obviously did not look at some of the suggested pages, or if you did, did not understand the statements that indicate where people passionately forbid certain forms of independence because "consensus becomes irrelevant " they are espousing views where '''''truth''''' and genuine rationality and morality quite often become irrelevant, in deference to force of "the collective". That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''." ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:::: In answer to the question above, "What can we do about it?" - It seems clear that nothing can be done about it. The visual appearance of the project is effectively under the control of one editor and there is no prospect that this situation will ever change. It's a remarkable and I think unprecedented situation in the Wiki-related universe. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::::Kalki said: That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''."

::::No, instead Kalki's particular interpretation of "truth" is always right. I have to sadly agree with the above, that as long as Kalki is allowed to define what is right, and is allowed to discount every other opinion because it does not fit "truth," "rationality," or "morality," this project is hopeless. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 21:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing prevents Macspaunday, or you, or anyone else, from working on it, selecting and creating a QOTD every single day, the way you see fit. I don't think Kalki could, or would, revert your efforts. But it would be a lot of work. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: '''Actually, it is not entirely true that they are free to do whatever they see fit; I myself am not entirely free to do entirely as I see fit, in all regards, and do not wish to be.''' While still an admin and a long admired one, I constrained myself and the selection processes to its current procedures, gradually over time, to allow maximum input in selections of QOTD from all who wished to be involved, and though there are currently very few who regularly participate now, Zarbon, for one, was once a frequent opponent in debates over which quotes should be selected, and he was actually quite effective in getting his way much of the time, but not so much of it as he might have wished.
:::::: In regard to larger issues: '''I quite often keep MANY of my opinions and many aspects of my knowledge reserved from overt presentation, yet sometimes I choose not to remain quiet about long constrained perspectives that indicate what I perceive of some of the deficiencies and flaws in the arguments and strategies of others. '''I might often out of convenience or necessity refrain from revealing some truths, but I certainly do not go about attempting to obscure truths on vitally important matters and principles, nor silence others from indicating their opinions of them, and when people do resort to attempting to do so in various ways, out of various irritations with the views of others, and my own or others arguments or tenacity in not bowing abjectly to theirs, '''I do not always "politely" defer to simply accepting their particular opinions or rather crude attempts to distort or defame mine or those of others, such as have most actively created and built these projects, rather than simply control what others can do.''' I know some people wish to try to make that seem "unconscionably" rude, but so be it. I state my case as ably as I believe proper and necessary, and let others state theirs. I have been doing the very extensive and occasionally contentious work for years, amidst some frustratations, but with general approval, and a few others seek to occasionally frustrate and absolutely constrain my assessments of what presentations would be optimal to what theirs would be, simply because thus far, a very few people band together, with assumptions they speak for a majority of others, to say they don't understand, don't accept and don't desire my contributions. '''Even though, throughout the years, I have had ''FAR more'' people I find far more generally respectable, say that they value them, I realize that such groups joined in their avid hostilities can indeed be a threat to many generally desirable liberties and freedoms — and such people often do get quite irate and intolerant of others rights when they are not abjectly obeyed.''' I am a person who has had my life genuinely threatened in literal ways, and not been cowed by such arrogance, nor deterred in seeking to protect the rights of myself and others; I am not prone to submit without need to those who seem adamant in their desires that excessive forms of constraint and command over the rights and liberties of others be accepted and deferred to, apparently without question nor even vigorous counter-arguments. — that's about all I can say right now, as I have to attend to some matters because I must be leaving soon, at least briefly. ''[[Blessings]] to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Can we step back from discussion of process, philosophy, and personality for a moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which was '''Main Page Images''' and, specifically, the quantity thereof? In particular, I would like to explore two specific points in the last paragraph of Kalki's post on 5 February 2014 at 18:53, beginning at the phrase "As to compromises", regarding ''necessity'' and ''proportion'' these images.
::# I don't think it has been demonstrated that it is ''necessary to frame the entire text'' of the QotD with images. When I first joined Wikiquote some years back the quote of the day was accompanied by one small image on the main page. It was framed by a colored box with a header and footer. I do not recall any great hue and cry, or any comment at all, about the lack of a ''necessary frame of images'' boxing the quote. If one were designing the main page from scratch, one might begin by listing possible features and classifying them as either vitally necessary, highly desirable, or wish-list items. I think including a quote of the day would rank quite high and adding an image would be very desirable but, in my opinion, including a montage of images would have little or no priority for the main landing page of a site devoted to quotations. I would certainly recommend against using a "frame" that dominates the entire page, which brings up the second point...
::# Devoting ''up to 50% of the page'' to this material is, in my opinion, completely out of proportion to other priorities for space on the project's main public portal. As remarked in an earlier discussion, it pushes everything else but the masthead below the fold. Even a third of the page strikes me as a disproportionate allocation among main elements of the page:
::::* Masthead
::::* Quote of the day
::::* Selected pages
::::* New pages
::::* Main categories
::::* Community
::::* Sister projects
::::* Other languages
:::: I suggest we consider illustrating the presentation of the quote of the day in proportion to that which is ostensibly being presented:  I think allocating ''one third of the QotD block'' to illustration would be a more appropriate upper limit than a third or a half of the entire page.
::: I welcome the thoughts and opinions of other contributors about what is necessary and what is proportionate for Wikiquote's main landing page. (I don't think discussion of process, philosophy, and personality is going to shed much light on those issues.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I know that very few things are "necessary" to accept as "necessary" in any absolute sense, but do believe that framing the text with image fields is quite aesthetically appealing to ''most'' people, and ''thus'' highly desirable for presentations. '''The ''only'' things which regularly change on the main page here are the QOTD and the New page listings which are directly below it, and so I do not think that it remaining a prominent portion of the page, actually less than 25% of the page in most cases, I believe, is at all undesirable for a primary presentation page.''' The other sections are certainly not all that less convenient to access, to anyone but those with very slow connections. Though I am doing some things out of consideration for those in such circumstances, such as stripping out most px specs and reducing the use of animations on pages, I have stated before I don't believe that those who still have such should be a primary constraint on the development of any of our wiki pages. I do believe that if their problems are extreme enough, they should simply shut off image displays on their primary browser, or use an alternate browser where such settings are used. I believe that reducing the size of the images, relative to the size of the quote, or to one third of the QOTD is a rather crude and extreme measure to simply minimize the size of images, the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds, which are increasingly uncommon among most users, and generally not accommodated as a primary concern at most sites on the internet, ''including'' Wikimedia ones. '''As I have previously stated, it is quite standard to get pages with well over a hundred images at the much more commonly visited Wikimedia commons.''' As usual, I am quite willing to honor general provisions which can be arrived at, but do not generally support creating overly detailed nor overly absolute constraints on any matters, in accord with the principles of innovation and adaptation with which the Wikis were founded. I believe a general agreement to keep the images proportional to the page, and usually less than 30% is a reasonable one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::: It's not about page loading time, it's about screen real estate on the main page. It is not a case of "the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds". The reasons given are pushing everything else below the fold, and proportion to relevance for the purpose of a home page. I think you are mistaken in considering the main page "a primary presentation page":  The home page is primarily a ''portal to the project''. Compare the ''[[commons:|home page]]'' of the Wikimedia Commons project to which you refer:  it has ''two'' pictures (one static and one media file), each of which is the focus of a dedicated section. (It also uses a few iconographic links, as does ours.) Of course a project that is primarily a repository of images and media files has many pages with many more images, but not on its main portal page – this example does not support your argument. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: We are all involved to varying degrees in various forms of presentations. I believe the people who normally are involved with the main page layout for the commons do a fine job, and generally understand that graphic layouts are important to sparking and developing interests in a broad variety of subjects, people and ideas — as are quotes. I believe that it is widely recognized that quotes used in conjunction with images and visual images in conjunction with text quotes can often do a far better job of generating interest, curiosity, contemplation and exploration than either generally would alone, and that highly formalized constraints on presentations simply limit the varieties of options available in composing such presentations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia's policy on having multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:I briefly posted this on the Administrator's Noticeboard, but realized it should be on this page instead. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I would like to note that the above link states specifically that "Kalki is limited to one account" and that this was an unprecedented restriction here, in reaction to controversies that arose because I had created multiple accounts, and was unapologetic for doing so, and at that time unwilling to state some of the reasons for them, or take issue with the matter, and that I had in fact already agreed to limit myself to editing from one account, and had not and have not in any way attempted to evade that restriction, nor to misuse any of my accounts either before that time or since. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
* '''Oppose (very conditionally)''' : I am quite willing to ''develop'' and largely adopt such rules, within the next month or so, but would much prefer to make some important distinctions which are not evident in this document as it exists in its current state, despite having been gradually evolving or decaying in various stages, for many years, on a far more populated site, since its inception in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry&oldid=2446707 14 February 2004]‎, where it provided little more than a definition and the statement:
:: ''Some folks believe sock puppets suck. Others believe that they are useful, when used for good.''
: I believe there are issues to be raised more explicitly now. There are ALSO significant FACTS related to my own past use of multiple accounts and the reactions of others to them that I wish to be honestly and fairly addressed, and measures taken to rectify the current situation where I believe quite improperly and unjustly, the accounts I was gradually identifying as my own were suddenly defaced with VERY misleading statements which imply that these were merely Sockpuppets and that I had clearly been guilty of improper behavior with them, which I have always asserted was NEVER the case, and certainly never my intentions.
: Though I actually seem to be entering another week or so where I am likely to be more busy than I had thought elsewhere, within the next week or two I would actually like to ''begin'' to present upon my own user pages an accounting of ''some'' of the more significant reasons I created such accounts in the first place — and why I generally object to the pre-emptive suppression of such anonymity as they can afford, and why I object slightly to some of the wording in the current Wikipedia document, though not its general intent. I expect to be very busy on this matter and others in coming week or two, but to all, I send ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: This proposition is not ''ex post facto''; it has nothing to do with your previous accounts, other than your own assertion that Wikiquote has had no policy barring the use of multiple accounts. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: One of the things I would like to address is that the defacement of my multiple account pages as "Sock puppets" was undertaken not merely ''ex post facto'' but without clear community consensus to label them such, largely by one very hostile and very presumptive admin, who on the same page he links to only a portion of, was being declared by others to have acted improperly and in such ways as were clearly against policies. If we are going to adopt a policy regarding multiple accounts, I would like the long-standing injustice of that addressed as well, so that these accounts can be labelled in less presumptive and what I believe to be quite dishonest ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Our adoption of a forward-looking policy should not be contingent on addressing past events not occurring under that policy. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I certainly agree with that, but while discussions are occurring on such matters, I believe it would be proper to take assessments of past incidents, and such facts and opinions as I intend to present, in settling upon any new policies, and the adoption should not be rushed, merely for the convenience of some who might wish to rush such matters, and forego discussions or debates in such ways as I believe would be detrimental in many ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Adopting Wikipedia's policy as it stands could be problematic because it makes reference to entities and procedures for which Wikiquote does not have any local counterpart, e.g. Arbitration Committee and checkuser. Our [[Wikiquote:Username policy#Using multiple user accounts|current policy]] simply says ''"It is recommended that users not edit under multiple usernames, unless they have a very good reason."'' Something more definitive than this would be a good idea, and the Wikipedia policy could be a good starting point. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
*: I have imported the Wikipedia page to [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] and tagged it as an essay for now. We can whittle it down and otherwise adjust it to our local needs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Thanks for that — as I indicated, I am willing to support a slightly revised version of this eventually — but I would expect it to take at least a couple of weeks to establish a viable agreement. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: Of that, I have no doubt. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== WelcomeBot ==

This bot has been beating me with a stick as soon as I looked over this bot's contribution list. WelcomeBot's last edit [[Special:Contributions/WelcomeBot|was in 2008.]] Now, it has been six years (correct me if I am wrong) since this bot has contributed. On other wikis, the bureaucrats would revoke the bot's right due to inactivity. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AWelcomeBot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 See User Rights Log]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Voltairinedecleyre.png]] ==

Since [[:File:VoltairinedeCleyre.jpg]] exists - and is a completely different image - I renamed this. I've also done a restoration. However, a number of the usages here are on protected pages, so can someone replace the usage at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/November 17]] with either:
[[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35) - Original.png]] (unrestored version) or [[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35).jpg]] (restored version)? [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
: The page probably should not have been protected. This is [[w:WP:CASCADE|cascading protection]] from the page [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Display]], which was created in an abortive attempt to [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote_talk:Quote_of_the_day&oldid=1200367 reorganize QotD pages]. As the reorganization appears to have been abandoned and its index does not appear to be used anywhere, I wonder if the page creator, [[User:Cirt|Cirt]], would be amenable to deleting it and the associated [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Links]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I never understood precisely what Cirt was trying to do with these back then, in 2009, but they were entirely his effort, without much regard or consideration of the long standing and enduring QOTD selection, processing and archiving procedures, and all those index pages currently in a format that improperly generalizes them with titles such as "[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1]]" were moved into these titles then, and I believe simply should be moved back to the standard [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1, 2009]] title format for them. I don't understand exactly what is causing the protection problems at this point, having ignored the issue for some time, as one of relatively little significance, but agree the protections should be removed, and the pages restored to their original more standard titles. I just happen to be checking in now, don't have much time, and must be leaving again soon. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Reply:''' I've unprotected both those pages. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== Fair use audio/video clips ==

Hello,

Forgive my naive curiosity, but I wonder why Wikiquote pages never propose audio or video clips for famous quotes in movies, songs or speeches for instance. Since audio clips can be used as "fair use" on Wikipedia (see for instance on [[w:We Are the World #Music and vocal arrangements|"We Are the World"]]), is there anything that prevents Wikiquote contributors to put, say, short audio clips of [[Martin Luther King, Jr. #I Have A Dream (1963)|"I Have A Dream"]]'s finest quotes? or even a video clip of [[Gone with the Wind (film)|''Gone with the Wind'']]'s "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."?

Wouldn't that be "fair use"? wouldn't that be any useful to Wikiquote pages? I mean, lots of quotes from speeches or movies would benefit a lot from a presentation with their voice intonation, or visual context, no?

Thanks for any views on the subject! - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Such media clips can be linked to within pages, if they are available at the commons under an acceptable license, but, of course, simply "fair use" materials are not. Years ago, to avoid duplications, excess, and complicated burdens on a limited staff of regular admins, it was decided at the English Wikiquote to use only media available at the commons. Though it might sometimes be frustrating, I still believe that is probably a good thing, over all, as there are often contentions on even using images available at the commons, as some of the above sections can indicate. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:
::OK, so the English Wikiquote is not opposed to fair use in itself (since, as I understood it on [[Wikiquote:Copyrights]], it is under that very fair use that quotations are put here), but chose to avoid the complexity to manage fair use media files. That answers my primary question, thanks!
::Now, theoretically speaking, would it be feasible? Would it be legal to use excerpts of copyrighted audio or video content, just to display them as quotations from a published work? And if yes, would it be any different if Wikiquote was a for-profit project?
::I'm trying to get a better view of how media excerpts can legally be viewed as "quotations"... (for instance, is there a difference between selling a dictionary of (text) quotations, which seems feasible, and selling a compendium of media quotations?)
::[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 19:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am not familiar with all the technical details of how and why fair use has been defined or limited in various ways, in various contexts, and I am sure that this is a very complex legal matter, to which I make no pretense of having definite or authoritative answers. Good luck in seeking help on this one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::No one here is giving legal advice. I actually think we ''could'' use audio/video clips that are in the public domain, but as to copyrighted material, "fair use" for educational purposes is usually something like (no more than) 5 seconds of a five minute video. (On some pages there are links to Youtube clips, that's much safer, and may work as a solution – though even there caution is required, linking to "illegal" material is of course not permissible.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::I wasn't trying to get legal advice (or any authoritative answer at all), I know [[w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer]] and the like quite well, sorry if that's the impression I gave you. I was simply curious about understanding how this (using media clips under "fair use") applies to Wikiquote, or in general, and I thought that maybe there were contributors here who would have previously dealt with the issue. And that curiosity was only triggered by the fact that, as a reader of Wikiquote, I thought audio/video clips on the pages would have been great, and then I wondered, "wait, maybe it's not possible?". [[File:Face-smile.svg|18px]]
:::::Thank you anyway for your answers. - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 18:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Six pictures for Quote of the day ?!? ==

Does the ''Quote of the day'' really need to have six (6) pictures in it?!?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:It is of course quite possible to indicate ''much'' of how snide and hypocritical a person can be in only 15 words or even fewer, but complexity and intricate sincerity of thought often demands much more than that, and in defense of liberties and generally healthy good humor, I am usually quite prone to provide what I can, when I can, in the hopes that some who are plainly ignorant, confused and intolerant towards the actual or potential capacities of others might eventually become knowledgeable and wise enough to develop a genuine and profound love for the principles of Liberty, rather than merely the sounding of such words as can indicate it among those who are not prone to be insincere and hypocritical. I also hope that those who are often intimidated or merely irritated by the intolerant can learn to laugh at them, even if it must be sardonic laughter, rather than being angry at them, and sometimes thus even slipping into their ranks, and becoming unjustly intolerant of those so ignorant and confused as to be unjustly intolerant, rather than simply and properly and justly intolerant of unjust intolerance itself.

:'''Actually the quote of the day for today has 611 pictures known as "letters" and "punctuation marks" within it. These are arranged in sequences representing 120 vocalizations commonly known as "words" which form phrases and statements of thought.''' Unfortunately many of these are often used by some people with very little actually [[sincerity]], or any profound understanding of principles or concepts, such as those who might regularly use words of praise for [[Freedom of speech]], while often doing so much as they can to effectively constrain and control such speech or indications of ideas as others can make, in extremely intolerant [[absolutist]] ways, which are often dependent upon mechanistic, [[wikt:legalistic|legalistic]] formulas which are often touted as "sensible" or even "necessary" by the unimaginative, to the unimaginative, for the unimaginative. It is often a very easy thing to get the unimaginative to agree that the imaginative should be constrained and controlled by those most eager to constrain and control them. Some might go so far as to stress that MANY of these symbols are actually "redundant" and repetitive — there are only 26 letters, and once of each of these should be enough to indicate all that these images should be construed to indicate — and combing them in various ways lead to such "distractions" as people call "ideas", which are nearly always a threat to powers and prestige of the most vacuous.

:Using my own admittedly limited imaginative capacities to discern that you were probably attempting to criticize the fact that 6 complex images generally referred to as pictures frame the 611-symbol quote of the day, I will address the rhetorical inquiry regarding their necessity. '''Of course, thought itself is perhaps not actually "necessary" thing among many human beings, as many people often make abundantly clear by their regular impulses towards impositions of relatively thoughtless constraints and condemnation of others abilities to indicate or express many forms of thought and thoughtfulness.

:In this particular case, six images were selected to indicate some aspects of the ideas indicated through the QOTD words, or provide images of the person who is being quoted. It certainly could have used more to illustrate its expansive call to praise of humanistic appreciation of life and all that human beings can experience or observe, and a rejection of those primarily dark, ignorant and confused impulses towards denigrative and destructive and even suicidal or murderous attitudes and actions which many of the most ignorant and confused of people often favor or promote.

{|
|&emsp;||
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:Sunrise in Midtown, New York City - January 16, 2013.jpg|222px]] [[File:Zegar słoneczny plac defilad wskazanie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | {{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Arco iris circular.JPG|144px]] Do you have [[doubts]] about [[life]]? Are you unsure if it is really [[worth]] the [[trouble]]? Look at the [[sky]]: that is for you. Look at each [[person]]'s [[face]] as you pass them on the street: those faces are for you. And the street itself, and the ground under the street, and the ball of [[fire]] underneath the ground: [[all]] these things are for you. They are as much for you as they are for other [[people]]. [[Remember]] this when you wake up in the [[morning]] and think you have [[nothing]]. Stand up and face the east. Now [[praise]] the sky and praise the [[light]] within each person under the sky. It's okay to be unsure. But praise, praise, praise.
| author = Miranda July
}} [[File:Double-alaskan-rainbow.jpg|144px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Salutations to the Ganges at sunrise, Varanasi.jpg|201px]] [[File:Miju.jpg|201px]]
|}
|}
:With an emphasis on the worthiness of [[Life]] itself, especially to the extent it promotes [[Liberty]] and [[Justice]] in all vitally important human endeavors, and to further testify of the usefulness of thought, imagination, and images in the use of words and quotes, I will quote a few more extremely worthy statements of worthy principles by worthy minds.

:To quote the current Wikipedia and Wikiquote introduction: [[Censorship]] is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

:Wikis were admirably devised to MINIMIZE the presence of the overly constrained and controlling impulses of groups and individuals most prone to rely upon static and dull understandings and misunderstandings of rules and regulations, and to permit those with most extensive and expansive ideas to have much more opportunity for indicating them and developing them without needless hindrance. Wikis of many types persist in doing so, despite many forms of constraining and corruptive influences, and I trust that they will continue to do so, despite occasional afflictions of short-sightedness, and tendencies towards pre-emptive censorship or limitations on the presentations of ideas.

:* '''The first condition of [[progress]] is the removal of censorship.'''
:** [[George Bernard Shaw]], in his Preface to [[w:Mrs. Warren's Profession|Mrs. Warren's Profession]]''

:* '''Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself.''' It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote our First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from the interference of a policeman's intrusive thumb or a judge's heavy hand.
:** [[Potter Stewart]], in his dissenting opinion in ''Ginzburg et al v. United States'' (1965)

:* Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.
:** [[Ray Bradbury]], in ''Fahrenheit 451'', Coda (1979 edition)

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG|144px]] Our [[liberty]] depends on the [[freedom of the press]], and that cannot be limited without being lost.
| author = Thomas Jefferson
}}
|}

:As I know that not all are inclined to persist in their inclinations to defend liberties where it is obvious there are some groups of people prone to cohere in their opposition to them, those few who do cohere for liberty can sometimes render humanity a valuable service, and I hope that in the times to come, what efforts I have made to help people become more aware and appreciative of the principles of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Joyous Universal Love of ALL will be of great benefit to many, even if many of the ways I have done so remain obscured and unnoticed by most. '''''[[Blessings]]''' to all.'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 06:55, 15 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:I know some indications of the complexities of my own particular thoughts and ideas, and those of others, in promotion of liberty and praise for it and for the presentations of ideas in general can seem "verbose" — but that is one of the burdens of having a relatively complex mind and the will to keep it complexly alert and active. Something which many of the wise throughout the ages have advised, in various ways. I add this little note to provide just a few more refinements of thought and a further quote that addresses one of the tragedies of current times:

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = In a three-minute stretch between [[commercials]], or in seven hundred [[words]], it is [[impossible]] to present unfamiliar [[thoughts]] or surprising conclusions with the [[argument]] and [[evidence]] required to afford them [[credibility]]. Regurgitation of welcome [[pieties]] faces no such [[problem]].
| author = Noam Chomsky
}}
|}

:''So it goes…'' and so much as they ever can … may ''Blessings'' abound. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 07:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:: I like this QOTD layout. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Which? There are two examples of illustrated quotations above (Miranda July and Thomas Jefferson). I prefer the second layout for use on the main page because it doesn't make the QotD box 7–8 times larger (depending on window size) than the QotD itself and push everything else "[[w:below the fold|below the fold]]". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to the QOTD (Miranda July), not the Jefferson quote. [I don't think Kalki posted the latter with the intent of it being a QOTD layout proposal.] There have certainly been some QOTDs that I found too extravagant, or with too many mystical (large) pictures, but in this QOTD the pictures seem comparatively well chosen and pleasant. However, more generally, I agree that the QOTD should preferably have fewer & smaller pictures (otherwise, it gives readers the wrong impression, this wiki is not really about the pictures), and occupy less space, so that for example the suggested articles in the main page could gain more immediate visibility. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

: It does not. But the person who runs this site thinks otherwise, and also equates "criticism of layout decisions" with "censorship." There is nothing anyone can do about it, except avoid the main page entirely. That's easy enough to do with Google, and I would recommend it as a way around the egregious front page. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:: "It does not" seems a rather incoherent statement, along with others less obviously so. ''' No one "runs" this site, and despite the regular efforts of a few people to absolutely constrain and control what ''others'' can do, in ways that defy and betray the very principles of promoting extremely diverse and minimally regulated contributions with which most wikis were founded, it remains, on the whole, only incidentally and probably not permanently corrupted by such efforts.''' And despite the often infantile reactions of people in responding to criticism, I certainly do NOT stupidly assert that criticism of layout decisions amounts to "censorship" — I assert that calls for extreme constraint or ELIMINATION of layout decisions by those most involved in the actual work and consideration of options, by a few people who seem most interested in constraining or eliminating MANY options IS censorship. Such constraints as would ''de facto'' constrain others to the sensibilities or desires of a relatively small group of people who seem very inclined to be critical and intolerant of others ideas, and often quite extremely intolerant and punitive towards criticisms of themselves and their ideas. And indeed if such people find the layouts which others have acclaimed so intolerable, they are more than welcome to do as they will and avoid looking at them at all, and avoid considering any ideas or presentations save those they find most comfortable and consoling to their ''precious'' little minds and forms of mindfulness. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I realized afterwards that your lead statement "It does not" probably refers to the leading question presented by the creator of this section, which pretty much ignores all the extensive material added afterward. If one can overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent, and mattered not at all, congratulations of a sort: I have little doubt that you will be able to succeed in keeping your mind "pure and undefiled" by any "alien" ideas such as I or others might introduce. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
::::(I wonder whether you'll be able to post such pictures again in discussions once [[mw:Flow|Flow]] is enacted.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Kalki, it is possible to read what you write and still disagree with you. I did not ignore "all the extensive material added afterward," nor did I "overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent." I read it, which should have been obvious by the fact that I referenced it. I just disagree with you. The QotD does not need 6 images. Your arguments are not persuasive - particularly the one comparing letters to pictures. The fact that you believe your making an argument means that argument is correct is one of the problems here. I am not promoting censorship of ideas. I don't believe the unimaginative are trying to constrain or control anyone. I believe 6 images makes the QotD section too busy, and distracts from the purpose of this site, which is to provide quotes. That's my opinion. But I'm aware that no amount of argument against what you want will change your actions, or your opinion of those who disagree with you as closed-minded troglodytes. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 15:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it might be simplest to get rid of the quotation altogether, and simply post "Mystical pictures of the day"? At present, the quotation tends to get lost amidst all the galactic objects, lights in the forest, rainbows, shadows extending into the distance, hands reaching for the sky, etc., etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 17:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I fear Kalki's method might actually have the opposite effect of what he is trying to accomplish. In the first place, I am not sure whether these large pictures do a good job in attracting more people's attention to the quote, or if on the contrary people get bored with always seeing the same pattern and flashy colors—which could lead them to not read the quotes of the day, and start avoiding the main page. Now, to be fair, Kalki often tries to choose appropriate, and different, pictures for QOTD. But Macspaunday's parody of Kalki's preference for mystical imagery might actually point to a poverty of thought that is much contrary to Kalki's sincere intention of introducing people to new thoughts and ideas. At least speaking for myself, when I read a quote for the first time, I prefer to be free to imagine (and produce my own imagery of) what the quote represents, to me, on my own. Kalki might wish to present his interpretation of the quote to others, but this (unintentionally?) interferes and breaks ''in advance'' my own interpretation. It's like being forced to watch a movie adaptation (good or bad) before reading a book. I don't know how that's compatibly with the principles of Freedom Kalki defends. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On the subject of what attracts people. Taking a quick look at our "rival" sites, apparently ''[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes goodreads]'' doesn't have nor use subjective pictures at all, and they seem to attract more people than Wikiquote (the same is true for ''brainyquote'', which in fact doesn't present any pictures). Of course these sites are not good in many aspects (e.g., sourcing of quotes), but perhaps ''goodreads''' policy to only present a small picture of the author next to the quote is something we could adopt. I'm almost sure that if they started adding large colorful shining pictures next to quotes, their viewership would decline. Perhaps giving a more professional look to our main page would help attract (and keep) more visitors. I recently made two simple suggestions for the QOTD, [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/January 28, 2014|here]] and [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 20, 2014|here]], don't know if they would be better. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. Obviously the QOTD alone is not even remotely responsible for overall less viewership, Wikiquote has many other—much more serious—problems, in content, navigation, etc. (and I repeat that I think Kalki has done more for the betterment of WQ than any other editor, my comments here are not meant to blame him, just offer constructive criticism. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Indeed. I appreciate Kalki's desire to make an artistic presentation, but would advise him to consider the artistry of [[w:Minimalism|Minimalism]]. Hmmm, now I see that we have no page on [[Minimalism]]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: (We do now.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: DanielTom has offered some excellent and indisputable wisdom here. He's absolutely right that Goodreads et al. go wrong in ways that WQ goes right: WQ has sourced quotations, warnings about false and doubtful attributions, etc. - and WQ gets hundreds of things right that Goodreads et al. conspicuously get wrong. But Goodreads et al. ''look'' vastly more authoritative than WQ because they don't illustrate hundreds of different quotations with Hoag's Object, heart-shaped stones held in the hand, etc., etc. They ''look'' authoritative in ways that WQ, sadly, does not. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:08, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Why do those websites attract more traffic than WQ? This is a topic that needs research, but I believe the main reason is that they present the best quotes right at the top of their pages. ''goodreads'', for example, has a voting system whereby the most liked quotes appear at the top. This is much different from WQ, where the readers often have to read through a sea of quotes just to find an occasional gem. (And this is particularly true in long theme pages, such as "[[Love]]".) The only way we can solve this in our current system is, believe it or not, through the use of pictures, to highlight the best quotes. (I suspect many of our readers only read through long pages by simply looking at picture captions.) So, at least to my mind, pictures can actually be the solution, not the problem. However, to be sure, I also share concerns about pictures in excess, irrelevant to the text, or too subjective that they apply and appear everywhere. In addition, although I might for example worship every single word Shakespeare wrote, placing a picture for every one of his quotes would not attract more people's attention to them, it might very well just do the opposite. This seems to be what is happening in articles that are flooded with walls of pictures. So pictures can become the problem when they are too many, and so go ''counter'' to their function of ''highlighting key quotes''. I think this is something everyone can recognize. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Leaving aside the consideration of typographic glyphs as images, leaving aside the question of whether Kalki speaks for the "[[w:silent majority|silent majority]]" (or is, in some sense, a multitude incarnate), leaving aside the small mindedness of mere mortals overwhelmed by the grandeur of Kalki's idealism; Kalki actually does offer a reason to support using a multiplicity of images. To wit:  ''to have much more opportunity for indicating extensive and expansive ideas''. Chomsky's quoted remark about the limitations of short-form exposition is certainly correct: some ideas require a longer form for their successful exposition. Toward that end, using the very rough approximation that a picture is worth a thousand words, one might seek an opportunity to indicate extensive and expansive ideas with an essay of six thousand words. However, bearing in mind that ''the art of quotation is generally characterized by [[brevity]]'', it would be incongruous to seek such opportunities in the pages of Wikiquote. Kalki's defense of the photomontage as a form of expression begs the question of whether the exposition of extensive and expansive ideas belongs on the main page. I think that it does not. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: Another way of thinking about Ningauble's point is this: Imagine that the quotation of the day is typically surrounded by six quotations from the Bible or Shakespeare - and that many of them had also been used to surround completely different quotations on previous days. That would certainly be a long-form exposition, but would it be appropriate to the front page, and would it show respect to the authors of the quotations? I'd imagine that many of the authors would think they were being less than respectfully represented by a page that surrounds a sentence or two that they wrote with thousands of words from the Bible or Shakespeare. I'd imagine they would think the same way about seeing their quotations surrounded by pictures of clouds, rainbows, galactic spirals, prisms, sculpted hearts, nineteenth-century genre paintings, etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Amidst many activities with concerns elsewhere, I have now examined the above comments, and will probably do so again, before posting some responses to some recent statements and actions. I am considering many options of what sorts of rebuttals to make, as I again leave for elsewhere, for there are plainly many complexities to consider in the assertions and attitudes of those who seek to impose what they perceive as admirable "simplicity" on the options of ''others'' in quite complicated ways, for quite complicated and varied reasons. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why bother? From your attitude in that very comment we can be pretty confident what your response will be. We cannot discuss what the community deems appropriate on this site as long as it might have some impact on you having your way. It's not very complicated at all. You will do what you want, and any discussion to the contrary is us (no matter how great a majority we are) trying to "impose" something on you. The discussion will go nowhere as long as you continue to ignore that somebody's opinions aside from yours might have merit. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am always willing to acknowledge merit, where it can be found, and to actually bother about a lot of things others do not, where vitally important forms of truth are at stake; and you are actually right to some very limited extent, though demonstrably wrong in others, for you can rely upon my responses being quite contrary to those which promote various forms of suppression of various forms of intelligent exposition by various forms of arrogant misuse of force.
::: '''[[Ironies]] and profound forms of [[stupidity]] about them certainly abound in this world, in ways I will actually decline to always specify, out of consideration of the plainly delicate and fragile sensibilities of some, and the need to discreetly retain some forms of [[knowledge]] to be revealed in more effective ways than those of presently declaring them openly to some of the most plainly ignorant, intolerant and insensitive people presently active here.''' I will actually specify that many of the most belligerently intolerant and oppressive of people are often desperate to find ways to convince others of the certainty of their numerical or absolute moral superiority, and genuinely believe such things themselves. '''I am certainly NOT quite so full of shallow and stupid certitude about many things as you certainly are trying to make me seem, in ways I will concede I perceive to be quite shallow and obvious.'''
::: I must say that for someone who had as yet only started a topic of derision of my work, and had made only 3 edits, all specifically in derision of me, who has contributed over 100,000, armed with all the authority of "collective identity" with a few others of the most intolerant here which those 3 edits provided you, declared in rather comically imperious tones of ''command'' as a member of "the collective", of those most avid to control OTHERS: "You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others."
::: I am not actually intimidated very much at all by such remarkably clear examples of the presumptive arrogance of the most intolerant and eagerly oppressive of people; '''I actually expect many of them to eventually provide prominent and long remembered examples to many students and researches of psychological and sociological processes, of significant aberrations in the social processes, towards subtle and overt forms of anti-social oppression and suppression of dissent.'''
::: Actually from the moment I first read those words, I honestly perceived you might be engaged in one of the most remarkably arrogant, petty and presumptuous forms of pretension and deceitfulness or delusions which I had yet encountered on this wiki, and I actually strongly suspect that you could very likely be one of the sporadic trolls who primarily aim to disrupt the normal processes of wikis and their development. '''Of course I am quite willing to concede that I could be entirely wrong''', and you are not actually such a paltry twerp, and even without much actual evidence in support of such an assessment, could conceivably even be a generally mild and benevolent researcher in various social sciences, including those of how people respond in positive and negative ways to various forms of generally positive and intelligent presentations of various ideas or indications of the beauty of the world, and in this case you are assuming the guise of an intolerant belligerent twerp or troll to provide an example for all eternity of how easily swayed to paths of oppressive stupidity some people can be, much like those in the psychology experiments of [[Solomon Asch]], [[Stanley Milgram]], and [[Philip Zimbardo]]. '''IF that were the actually the case here I would actually have to assert that I consider it an extremely unethical and misguided practice and strongly disagree with the adoption of such vile guises by anyone, even in pretenses, for ostensibly worthy psychological research and investigations, and forms of direct action in social involvement.'''
::: Though not quite as pessimistic as he sometimes was, I have long agreed to a great extent with many of the observations of the intelligent [[Heroically]] [[Angelic]] [[Humanist]] [[Absurdist]], [[Kurt Vonnegut]] including that in ''Mother Night'': '''We are what we [[pretend]] to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'''
::: As I have remained busier than I had anticipated I would be in various complex concerns, and it actually looks like I will continue to be for a while yet, I am willing to patiently consider many options and aspects of many situations, before I respond more vigorously here, to what I believe to be many rather ironically stupid developments in the audacity of those who would suppress and censor the indication of thoughts and ideas.
::: As I have to get busy doing other things now, I will simply close with a profound quote by one of many profound philosophers who I have long admired:
{{quote of the day
| quote = ''Every [[morning]] I shall concern myself anew about the boundary Between the [[love]]-[[deed]]-'''Yes''' and the [[power]]-deed-'''No''' And pressing forward [[honor]] [[reality]]. We cannot avoid Using power, Cannot escape the compulsion To afflict the [[world]], '''So let us, cautious in diction And mighty in contradiction, Love powerfully.'''''
| author = Martin Buber
}}
::: ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::::Name-calling and cries of censorship, while hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority. Who could have seen that coming?
::::I'll admit that my attempt to improve the wiki in this particular way has been lost, although I'd encourage others to continue the battle. And especially, if you are reading this and agree, I would encourage you to register and to speak up. Even if your contribution will be dismissed (publicly, anyway - privately I have received kudos), if you desire the improvement of this project you should contribute in any way you see necessary, including this one. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 22:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: You are plainly mistaken if you think I am "hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority." I am a rather [[anarchistic]] [[Absurdist]] and though I might accept that in some ways there could be such absolutes, I reject notions that any mortal mind has the capacity or comprehension to absolutely determine or formulate such with absolutely reliable accuracy. To each their own pieces of the puzzles... ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== Universal Language Selector will be enabled by default again on this wiki by 21 February 2014 ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
On January 21 2014 the MediaWiki extension [[mw:Universal Language Selector|Universal Language Selector]] (ULS) was [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Jan2014|disabled]] on this wiki. A new preference was added for logged-in users to turn on ULS. This was done to prevent slow loading of pages due to ULS webfonts, a behaviour that had been observed by the Wikimedia Technical Operations team on some wikis.

We are now ready to enable ULS again. The temporary preference to enable ULS will be removed. A [[commons:File:ULS-font-checkbox.png|new checkbox]] has been added to the Language Panel to enable/disable font delivery. This will be unchecked by default for this wiki, but can be selected at any time by the users to enable webfonts. This is an interim solution while we improve the feature of webfonts delivery.

You can read the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Feb2014|announcement]] and the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Upcoming Development Plan|development plan]] for more information. Apologies for writing this message only in English. Thank you. [[m:User_talk:Runab WMF|Runa]]

</div>


: No apology is needed. Visitors here are not required to master the subtle art of translating from English to Quotish. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Heh. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Amendment to the Terms of Use ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Hello all,

Please join a discussion about a [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|proposed amendment]] to the [[wmf:Terms of Use|Wikimedia Terms of Use]] regarding undisclosed paid editing and we encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please translate this statement if you can, and we welcome you to translate the proposed amendment and introduction. Please see [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|the discussion on Meta Wiki]] for more information. Thank you! [[:m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 22:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Einstein was a Humanist? ==

I've tried to edit this but another editor has reverted it, so I'd appreciate some more opinions. IMHO it's thoroughly misleading to describe Einstein as a Humanist: a) he never self-identified as a Humanist; b) in Einstein's day the Humanist movement did not exist in the form that it does today (i.e. that of a 'secular religion'), so the term applied to Einstein is meaningless; c) his stated beliefs are not in accord with those of Humanism. [[User:HPotato|HPotato]] ([[User talk:HPotato|talk]]) 10:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
: '''OMFG.''' Omnipresent [[Mystical]] Fair [[Goodness]] ever abides, even amidst all the petty, pretentious and delusive perspectives and outright lies that are often presented AS IF they were fact, or supreme facts, when to anyone with sufficient [[knowledge]] and [[reason]] they clearly are NOT. It is entirely accurate to state Einstein was a [[Humanist]], as the contentions on '''[[Talk:Albert_Einstein#.27Scientist_and_humanist.27|that talk page]]''' by various editors make abundantly clear. I myself have been acutely aware of much of his involvement in endeavors of [[Humanism]] since I was just a toddler, and probably become aware of his support of the [[w:Ethical movement|Ethical Culture Society]] when I was 5 or 6 years old, and this was part of one of the founding alliances of the wider [[w:International Humanist and Ethical Union |International Humanist and Ethical Union]]. And as another editor pointed out: "'''Einstein served on the advisory board of the [[w:First Humanist Society of New York|First Humanist Society of New York]]. His name appears in Wikipedia's [[w:List of humanists|List of humanists]].'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: The problem is that words change meanings. Einstein was undoubtedly a humanist in the classical meaning of the word. However, nowadays it is virtually synonymous with atheist, which Einstein was not. It could be argues, therefore, that to call him a humanist is misleading.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The word still, in this day, also very much means what it used to mean. What is potentially confusing is that some atheists are also humanists and some humanists are also atheists. What is ''misleading'' is the polemics of certain oppositional groups, such as an insistence in the [[w:New Atheism|New Atheism]] that a "good" humanist must be [[w: Antitheism|''anti''-theist]], and the insistence of [[w:Christian right|right-wing political factions]] that all humanists are Godless heathens. "Humanist" and "atheist" are not synonyms: many atheists are not humanists, and many humanists are not atheists. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: '''Thanks for making that point.''' I had written several paragraphs yesterday elaborating on that and related points, but decided to take time to reflect and temper my observations before posting anything here. As it stands I have decided to drop all but the first paragraph, and might bring up other things elsewhere on my own talk pages in coming weeks. Here is part of the first paragraph of what I stated on seeing this yesterday:
::::: '''Of course words change meanings, with time, in human society — as a person familiar with [[history]] I recognize that. As a person familiar with many aspects of the [[sciences]] and [[disciplines]] of [[psychology]] and [[semiotics]] I also recognize they ALWAYS have various nuances and shades of meanings that can and MUST differ between human individuals, ALL of the time.''' KNOWING this I consider it extremely inconsiderate and profoundly wrongful to seek to constrain definitions of words to such uses as are PLAINLY and profoundly WRONG, easily misleading, and ''needlessly'' confusing upon vastly different ranges of issues. I believe that such IS the case in ACCEPTING "Humanism" as a near-synonym for "Atheism" as I assert many ignorant, confused, asinine, arrogant and rationally and ethically incompetent theists AND atheists are prone to do, in order to promote many aspects of their own particular ranges of agenda.
:::: And with that I get back to work on the adding of material to the project, before having to leave again soon. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

== Call for project ideas: funding is available for community experiments ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">

[[File:IEG_key_blue.png|100px|right]]

''I apologize if this message is not in your language. Please help translate it.''

Do you have an idea for a project that could improve your community? [[m:Grants:IEG|Individual Engagement Grants]] from the Wikimedia Foundation help support individuals and small teams to organize experiments for 6 months. You can get funding to try out your idea for online community organizing, outreach, tool-building, or research to help make {{SITENAME}} better. In March, we’re looking for new project proposals.

Examples of past Individual Engagement Grant projects:
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Build_an_effective_method_of_publicity_in_PRChina|Organizing social media for Chinese Wikipedia]] ($350 for materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Visual_editor-_gadgets_compatibility|Improving gadgets for Visual Editor]] ($4500 for developers)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library|Coordinating access to reliable sources for Wikipedians]] ($7500 for project management, consultants and materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision|Building community and strategy for Wikisource]] (€10000 for organizing and travel)

'''[[m:Grants:IEG#ieg-applying|Proposals]] are due by 31 March 2014.''' There are a number of ways to [[m:Grants:IEG|get involved]]!

Hope to have your participation,

--[[m:User:Sbouterse (WMF)|Siko Bouterse, Head of Individual
Engagement Grants, Wikimedia Foundation]] 19:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

</div>


== Buddy Holly Wikiquotes. ==

The Photo you have on that page is not Buddy Holly but a Holly impersonator.
{{unsigned|164.165.145.21}}
: I have lowered the prominence of the disputed image, which I agree is dubious, and added some that are clearly of [[Buddy Holly]] to the page. I might add a few more later. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Language links (interwiki) via Wikidata are coming ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
[[File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg|150px|right]]
Hey everyone :)

I just wanted to let you know that Wikiquote will be the next sister project to be supported by Wikidata. Initially you will be able to maintain the links between the language editions of Wikiquote on Wikidata. This means you will no longer have to maintain them in the wiki text of each article. (However you will still be able to if you want to and local links will overwrite the ones from Wikidata in that case.) We plan to enable this on April 8th for you. At a later point (depending on how this initial roll-out goes) you will also get access to the other data on Wikidata like the date of birth of a scientist for example.

If you have any questions please come to [[d:Wikidata:Wikiquote]] where we'll try to answer all of them. If you're already familiar with Wikidata and want to act as an ambassador please add your name to the list there to help people find you.

I'm looking forward to welcoming you all to Wikidata.

Cheers
[[:d:User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher]] 21:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Bot ==

I have requested Bot permissions at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== What is up with the game-cleanup template? ==

Not sure what the heck is going on, but the page for [[Grim Fandango]] lists a whole bunch of… buses? I think?

Anyway, I traced the problem back to the [[Template:Game-cleanup|game-cleanup template]], but that page isn't editable so I'm not really sure what to do. – Guido del Confuso, 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Well, I just checked and it's fixed now, so never mind, I guess. Unless someone saw this and fixed it, in which case, thanks! — [[User:Guido del Confuso|Guido del Confuso]] ([[User talk:Guido del Confuso|talk]]) 06:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:: It was a simple case of vandalism, which has been reverted. I have protected the underlying "highly visible template". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Indefinitely blocked IP addresses ==

Hi, this proposal is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
# The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at [[Special:BlockList]].
# Amending [[Wikiquote:Blocking policy#Anonymous and open proxies]] to discourage future indefinite blocks, with proposed language changes like adding "Administrators are strongly discouraged/prohibited/advised against indefinitely blocking IP addresses".

As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
# IP addresses should generally never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
# ''In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, such as for open proxies, the '''Meta Stewards have already implemented a near-indefinite global block for it'''.''

Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 05:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I agree that, because IP address assignments tend to be volatile, they ought not be indefinitely blocked except in special cases such as open proxies or very long term abuse. Some of our administrators do occasionally indef-block an address, and other administrators occasionally, but very infrequently, go back and expire them. It has been a couple years since anyone scrubbed the [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=userblocks&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=tempblocks list of indef-blocked IPs] and, as it happens, I recently put it on my to-do list to review them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Quote popularity ==

Is there any way to rank the quotes by popularity, and/or how "well-known" they are? Or at least to sort them into buckets from "very popular" to "very unpopular"? I haven't been able to find it by searching around, but perhaps some method could be programmed.

== Proposed optional changes to Terms of Use amendment ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">Hello all, in response to some community comments in the discussion on the amendment to the Terms of Use on undisclosed paid editing, we have prepared two optional changes. Please [[m:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Optional_changes|read about these optional changes on Meta wiki]] and share your comments. If you can (and this is a non english project), please translate this announcement. Thanks! [[m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 21:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC) </div>


== Formatting sources ==

What's standard procedure on the layout for sourcing quotations on Wikiquote? Currently, [[Wikiquote:Manual of Style]], [[Wikiquote:Sourcing]] and [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]] (still a mess unadapted to Wikiquote since import) doesn't seem to provide a lot of guidance to current practices here. I'm bringing this up because I noticed when I provided the source for a number on quotations on [[Bob Keeshan]], [[User:Geezerbill|Geezerbill]] had already introduced the quote he got from my response ([[Special:Diff/1696976|diff]]) using Wikipedia's <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref> and <references/></nowiki></code> markup, which was later removed by [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] ([[Special:Diff/1696983|diff]]). And basically I was afraid of accidentally stepping into what seemed to be a small dispute over formatting refs, so I reverted myself when I noticed the previous change to the <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref></nowiki></code> layout. I know Kalki's been here longer than I or Geezerbill have been, but I'd like to know the community's opinion on this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you very much for your inquiry. It has made me realize how very much many of our help pages still need simplifying and updating, and despite the tediousness of that and my aversion to prescriptive assertions, I might actually start focusing on that problem within the next month. As to citation styles, though we have come to tolerate many that people have carried over from other types of citation, including those found in footnote and endnote stylings, '''we avoid using footnote citations in favor of interlinear citation.''' Personally, I avoid using templates and do not recommend them, and since the wiki began in 2003 the favored styles have been something along these lines, but with minor adaptations and extensions permitted:

:On Author pages, or pages for an author's works:
:* Quote text.
:** ''Name of Work'' (YYYY) or (Month YYYY) or (DD Month YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
:And on theme pages or in sections where various authors are cited:
:* Quote text.
:** First & Last Name, in ''Name of Work'' (YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
: If there are internet links used, I personally prefer to place them so that the entire title becomes a link, for both aesthetic and practical reasons, as it makes the link cleaner and clearer, but that is not any kind of mandate.

: I am sure there are other things that can be specified, or advised, but that provides a summary of some of the practices and norms which were established early on, and have endured here, despite an increasing importation of other cite styles. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

(edit conflict) @[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: The standard procedure is what you can find on pretty much all Wikiquote pages: we use interlinear, not footnote, citations. This is because WQ considers sources to be an important (and integral) part of quotations. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:Alright, thanks @[[User:Kalki|Kalki]] and @[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: I have a consideration for you though, if you will. Wiktionary uses a similar style of quotation to demonstrate that particular use of a word reflects a particular definition; see [[wikt:go#Verb]] for example, which has "quotations" dropdowns (JavaScript hack from their Common.js) that you can click on to see the full list. Do you mind if I use that as examples of sourcing? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 11:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:: There probably could be some use for such a format option here in some regards, but I would not recommend it for standard citations, which I believe should remain visible as interlinear citations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

* TeleComNasSprVen is correct about the guidelines not describing the layout conventions that have evolved here over time. Since the earliest days of the project, these were largely ignored in favor of a "learn by example" approach (and even "discover by experiment"). E.g., the use of interlinear citations is ''exemplified'' at [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout]] and [[Wikiquote:Templates]], but the practice is not ''stated or explained'' anywhere except in discussions. It is also rather tricky to give general guidance that avoids unnecessarily arbitrary specifics, as many details of presentation are subject to considerable variation. (E.g., in contrast to Kalki's preferences, I usually link just the title rather than the whole citation, and for serial publications I do not usually parenthesize the date that identifies the issue unless volume and issue numbers are also given. Neither approach is wrong.) I am not exactly volunteering to rewrite the guidelines, but I have long felt that greater clarity would be a good thing for orienting newcomers, and that it would be better if the generic {{tl|cleanup}} templates could link to specific conventions that need to be addressed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: You could try using that "dropdown" format here for sources, on one or two pages, as an experiment. I don't think it is one we should adopt, though, because, other than implying that sources are secondary, it would also prevent people from simply saving or copying the article with citations to a Word document, without first having to click on every single box to show the sources. (I guess the same problem would apply to those who'd want to print it.) And having those little boxes in front of every quote could also prove distracting (precisely the thing you want to avoid). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:In any case, I like a little bit of standardization, and templates go quite some ways toward that, so I threw together a template that might be worth trying out at [[testwiki:Template:Quotation-author]]. I'm also considering moving it to Wikiquote but I'm afraid it might be deleted for lack of consensus. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Some levels and types of standardization are quite acceptable but templates often become ways to automatically impose some which prevent exceptions and useful variations, thus I generally tend to avoid them when I can. I am not sure there are any desirable advantages to having that template here, and I perceive there might be problems with the overuse of such. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but in that case we could try stipulating on the template documentation page itself that the template is not the only way to source our quotations. What if instead of making a template "official", everyone had a way of having their quotation-sourcing style attributed to them? For example, <code><nowiki>{{User:TeleComNasSprVen/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> would be attributed to me (in the source code) and uses my style, while <code><nowiki>{{User:Kalki/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> is attributed to you and uses your style. For one-off exceptions we could always subst/delete the original transclusion and replace it with a custom-made sourcing style, and it would be relatively easy to change all existing tranclusions by modifying the master template. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Well no, I don't mean exactly in the way they use it, but in terms of the source code and JavaScript/wikitext implementation involved I was thinking of something similar to the template I created above. Try it on a few pages on the testwiki (since they're mostly garbage anyway) and see if you like it.{{unsigned|TeleComNasSprVen}}
::I fear that would be even more confusing to new editors. I think sources should be simply written in plain text, so that in the future they can be easily altered, and corrected, by different people. We already have a few templates (see, e.g., [[:Category:Citation templates]]), but I personally avoid them altogether; it's much easier for me to just write down whatever information I have of the source, without having to follow strict parameters. That's just me, though, maybe other editors see it differently. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I know you object to the use of templates in general, but as a matter of personal style preferences would you, or anyone else in this thread, object to me moving the template from testwiki over here? As I said, since it seems you disapprove of templates in general, instead of moving it to template-space and make it an "official" widely used Wikiquote template, I could relocate it to my userspace to mark it "This is my personal style and others are likely to use their own", at least in the source code. You can implement your own styles using plain wikitext or whatever, but my opinion is in favor of a template, as you can probably guess. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I don't think anyone would object to you moving this new template to your own userspace. (You can even move it to WQ's template space, as far as I'm concerned.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: On general principles I don't think it is a good idea for articles to transclude things from userspace. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe he could use "subst:"? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal: More community involvement in Quote of the Day process ==

'''Proposal:'''
#I would like to propose we the community discuss having more involvement, as a community, in the Quote of the Day process for both (1) Selecting quotes and (2) Layout of quotes and images, on the [[Main Page]].
#Selection of quotes: It appears that at present quotes are voted on at individual date pages, example [[March 20]], and then selected by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.
#Layout of quotes and images on [[Main Page]]: It appears that at present, Layout of quotes and images in the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]] is determined by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.

(Side note: [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1698258&oldid=1698219 helpfully pointed out that I am genuinely doing my best to conduct myself with a professional conduct during this debate.] I would ask others to do the same, thank you.)

'''Some of my general ideas:'''

#Selection of quotes: As long as this takes into consideration opinions of the Wikiquote community at large, and the present system seems to do that, this seems okay. Not idea, but alright. Perhaps instead of one user we the community could elect a Committee of three (3) users for the final selection of the quotes, so that an odd number could help resolve disputes if and when they arise.
#Layout of Quote of the day section: This is where I have differing opinions with the current layout formatting. I truly believe there is: (1) Too many images used, but particularly too many images used that are ''not directly related'' to the quote itself. I feel for the most part images should be of the subject of the quote, the individual himself/herself that first stated the quote. (2) I feel that there is generally too much wikilinking-of-words-within-the-quote, and that this detracts from the reading of the quote, itself.

What do others think? Would it be best to move this discussion to a subpage for further debate by the community?

I'd like to move to establish a community process for determining Layout of Quotes for the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]], that better takes into account input of the community, instead of one individual.

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:Some initial thoughts: I feel that having a more robust process for selecting the QoD is an admirable goal, but being realistic I feel that we may have problems with participation. I for one used to participate in the voting process, but found that I was often unable to find the time to do so and still manage all the other tasks I wished to do here to improve other areas. I sincerely doubt I would have the time to participate on a daily basis. I think that the legacy of having Kalki perform much of the work simply grew out of the lack of available others to help with the large effort required to keep producing them. That being said, I do not have a problem with trying something new - I just fear that (as with many other discussions or ideas) we really do not have enough active editors that might participate. I don't want to discourage new ideas, but that's my initial thought.

:As to some of your other points, I do agree that there are times when there seem to be too many images and that these tend to overshadow the quote. But I also believe that this is the exception and not the rule. I believe that in some of the recent discussion, a loose rule of approximately four images was generally deemed acceptable - and is something I would also support. I also agree that the selected images should be related to the quote, but I am not so disposed to pose strict limits such that only the author of the quote is pictured. Although on occasion I have disagreed with selected images (and if this happens, I would rather address that on a case by case basis - maybe we should require the proposed layout to be posted at least a week in advance so others can comment? - Just thinking out loud) I have not often found the images selected to be all that bad - the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy|Image use policy]] does allow for more latitude than just the author. Finally, I do not have a problem with the wikilinking - in fact I consider this to be a positive aspect since it leads readers to explore other pages on the site (and has been common practice on all WQ pages for as long as I can remember). ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Okay, thank you, I respect your opinions. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I tend to agree with [[User:UDScott|UDScott]]'s analysis. I view QOTD as ephemeral, and am just not particularly interested in being involved in that process. I have suggested a quote or two over the years, but working on it day in and day out seems like a grind, and I'm glad someone else is willing to take up the task at all. That said, I certainly don't think it would ''harm'' the process for more editors to be involved in suggesting quotes to be used or evaluating suggestions that have been made. As for layout, I generally agree that we should have fewer images (one on each side should be enough), and I like UDScott's suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review. As for wikilinking, I also think that this is a good thing for our project, and would actually like to see a ''lot'' more of it, not just in QOTD, but in our articles generally. While we are not an advertising click farm that profits by getting people to view more pages, we do want the reader to have the best possible sense of the breadth of our project, and the greatest ease in jumping to other pages that might be of interest. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you. So moving forward, we have three editors so far that support the suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review, and having the community more involved in the layout process. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: '''The layout ''usually'' is present for review a day or two in advance, and I will endeavor to have some ideas presented even earlier in the future, as they often have been.''' I had to laugh out loud a bit here, because in rather typical fashion, you choose to ''ignore'' what ''praise'' or ''recognition'' my past presentations have generally had for over 10 years of nearly daily efforts here and ONLY emphasize what you wish to emphasize, which you reiterate in ways which, to the casual scanner of the comments, could make it seem previous responses were primarily critical of them, and present them in such ways as seem designed to develop more means to actively constrain or counter my involvement in various ways. I will note that over the years I believe that I have received far more praise for my efforts from casual visitors to the site and regular editors than disrespectful criticism, though some of the few people most prone to that have gradually accumulated into a small but relatively effective pack in their efforts to constrain the options available not only to me, but to everyone, and they have done this, thus far with relatively little notice or opposition from people more inclined to appreciate and include imagery in their presentations.

: '''Despite occasional procrastination or tardiness, I have ''usually'' had presentations ready at least a couple days in advance, and yet I am certainly against any authorization that these simply be butchered by specious arguments or assertions by those not interested in doing much layout work themselves.''' Though there are certainly further complications which could arise, opening up the processes more is not something I certainly am NOT adamantly against, but '''IF things are going to become more formally complicated and there is to be some final contestation for final layout I say it should be without any pre-determined constraints, beyond the legally necessary ones such as have ''always'' been recognized. IF there are alternate layouts to be proposed, by anyone, they should probably be presented on the talk pages of the related date, and if it seems there is a need for a vote between any alternatives we should let the most popular layout, within actual legal limits, become the chosen one, without PRIOR constraints and conditions of WHAT and HOW or WHY it can be presented.''' I know this might seem a somewhat frightening proposition to those who most seek to actively constrain the options available to others, and of course greater participation might not be what some people are actually after, and they merely seek to subtly or overtly diminish the options of others to devise layouts and present them — but I believe that opening up even more layout options is far more fair and likely to produce actually GOOD results, and more participation, IF that is truly what people are in any way after, than simply allowing more ways a few people, noticeably hostile or critical to my work in the past, to simply ''butcher it down'' on a nearly daily basis, as a means of further personal harassment of an avid worker. '''THAT of course is something I believe any person of genuine integrity MUST oppose as a betrayal of the principles with which wiki projects were founded, and also of the more general [[ethical]] [[principles]] of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]] and [[Joyous]] [[Universal]] [[Love]].''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with UDScott's comments 100%. I would just add, that Kalki is ''very'' receptive to QOTD suggestions; for example, [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 20, 2014|today's QOTD]] (that you can currently see on the main page) was actually suggested by me. Although more participation would be welcome, the reality is that very few people participate in the voting process, or suggest quotes. This is unlikely to change. Kalki's work in this area is actually very much commendable, and how he has consistently found the time and energy to keep up with the QOTDs for so long, is simply incredible. Although I enjoyed reading through some pages where quotes are suggested, and voting in them, I must say most of them are filled with unmemorable (bad) quotes, and even selecting the "best" of them is a challenge. I believe the fault here is that quotes are being suggested for the days of birth of authors, so there are some days, that don't have a single good quote. If I had any criticism of Kalki's selections, it would be that he sometimes doesn't choose the very best quotes, simply because they are too short. (I think he prefers longer ones because they give him more liberty in the selection of pictures.) I disagree with BD's comment: the QOTD is not "ephemeral", the main page is ''by far'' Wikiquote's most viewed page. It is how WQ presents itself to newcomers. For this reason, other than the avoidance of New Age imagery, I would really like to see sources being presented along the quotes in the main page, which would be a more proper representation of WQ. This could be easily implemented, if Kalki could see, that presenting sources is not aesthetically displeasing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I actually often choose longer quotes because they often are more extensive in their expressions of ideas and thoughts than some of the briefer ones that are available. I certainly have no aversion to short quotes, and there are many good short ones which I have chosen and have long been among my favorites — but many of the more notable short ones available have already been used. I have often stated that I generally dislike the idea of having the citations in the layouts, because though simple reference to the titles of works are used if they have a separate page, all of the technical info is available on the author's or the work's page, which are linked to, and this can often be aesthetically detrimental or cumbersome in an otherwise appealing layout. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I just want to add that I mean ephemeral in the sense of the QOTD being fleeting - there one day, replaced the next. I prefer to work on permanent installations. I'm not saying that QOTD is unimportant, merely that it is impermanent, and I prefer to direct my energies towards the permanent. I would also like to suggest that, in order to preserve resources and have a contingency available in case there is a dispute, there's no reason that we can't reuse some old quotes and layouts for QOTD. We've been doing this for many years now, and I think that we can grab a handful of the best examples that were used, say, five or six years ago, and have them as a standby. No visitor is likely to remember our quotes from that long ago. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:The sad fact is that no matter how much you want to try and revive a process, you can't force volunteers from a volunteer-driven website to work on an area that they have no knowledge nor interest in. I think community participation in the QotD process has always been open, the problem merely is the community has no interest in said participation. A related problem is investment of our limited time and proper allocation of volunteer resources. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: In response to a few of BD2412's remarks, I would point out, that aside from a very few cases of ''accidental'' repetition, and one case I recall where the layout chosen and displayed was late in the day replaced with a layout from the year before in an act of censorship of ideas by another editor, there has been no deliberate repetition of layouts, though with limited imagery of some authors, a few used with new quotes probably are similar to those used in the past with others. The archives of [[QOTD by month|QOTD by month]] provide a record of the past layouts, since November 2007, and some other pages list the selections prior to those. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: I am aware that there has been virtually no repetition, and commend the work that has produced original work to this point. However, we have the option of doing some recycling. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Numbers: the main page is viewed by over [http://stats.grok.se/en.q/latest/Main_Page 10,000] people every day. I don't think we need to repeat quotes, but the fixation with authors' birth-dates rather than with presenting the very best, most brilliant, quotes we have, sometimes (in some days) leaves much to be desired. I don't know how Kalki feels about this. We could also try to be more flexible, and change the QOTD when someone notable passes away, as a tribute, or when a speech receives great attention, (e.g. [[Ellen Page]]'s,) though there could be some objections to this (''test of time'', etc). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I believe that the ''guideline'' of preferring relationships to the date has been useful in preventing or minimizing floods of repetition of similar suggestions or sources over extensive periods of days. It has never been treated as an ''absolute'' rule, and where significant authors have no known birth or death dates, there is often a strong case for these. I have sometimes thought of having some days of the weeks or month designated as giving a greater weight to ancient authors, but never came up with what I perceived to be an entirely workable scheme for such. Until 2009, when my long-standing and never-misused admin status was removed, and last minute alterations were no longer reliably possible, I ''often'' changed QOTDs at the last moment, to something appropriate to the circumstances of prominent person's deaths. This option is one I believe I have not exercised since that time, even when the pages were not yet locked, believing I lacked any "authority" or authorization to improvise beyond the suggestions ranked highly on the suggestion pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

: I agree that the level of participation is a callenge for this process. Note how few people participate in ranking quotes on a regular basis. I recall at least one occasion when Kalki made a [[Wikiquote:Village pump archive 25#QOTD problems|plea for more participation]], which produced a modest increase for only a brief time. In my own experience, when I did try to participate on a regular basis it became rather tedious after a while, particularly since there were often a large number of candidates to review and since, as DanielTom notes, a lot of then were not very good. There is a tendency for mediocre and poor suggestions to accumulate and remain after the better ones have been used and removed from the list. I approve of Kalki's idea for posting layouts farther in advance so they can be reviewed and discussed. A day ir two is not really enough time unless one makes a habit of reviewing them every single day. One week might be more convenient. This small step would make the process open to to broader participation for those occasions when people do want to participate. A more structured system might be considered if and when actual participation reaches a level that could benefit from organization. Making it an open process is the most important step. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Kalki keeps Wikiquote fresh and updated with the daily quotes provided by him. Everyone can find faults, but is there anyone willing to put into as huge effort as he does? --[[User:Spannerjam|Spannerjam]] ([[User talk:Spannerjam|talk]]) 12:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

== Copyrighted franchise quotes ==

Hello, I'm brand new here, so please forgive me for asking this if I'm missing something really obvious, but how do we handle copyrighted franchise quotes (i.e. Pokedex entries or trading card flavor text)? I'm not seeing any here, so I'd like to add them, but since they're copyrighted, I'm not sure. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: Are they actually ''quoted'' by anyone? Are they attested in a source other than the card itself, or the manufacturer's website? This sounds pretty close to [[advertising slogans]], for which we have imposed a requirement of third-party quoting, to avoid promotional exploitation here. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::So if I can find a third-party source besides quote collections, then they're okay? Is there a way to add said sources? I'm not seeing any on the pages I've seen so far. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 04:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I suppose you could go by the format in [[advertising slogans]], or see [[English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb)]], since we have a similar reporting requirement for proverbs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: Alright, thanks! [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 17:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] title discussion ==

A proposal has been made at Wikipeda, at [[w:Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8]], to change the title of the article, "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to "Hillary Clinton". I presume that if that move succeeds, we would likewise move our [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] page to [[Hillary Clinton]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Changes to the default site typography coming soon ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">
This week, the typography on Wikimedia sites will be updated for all readers and editors who use the default "Vector" skin. This change will involve new serif fonts for some headings, small tweaks to body content fonts, text size, text color, and spacing between elements. The schedule is:

* '''April 1st''': non-Wikipedia projects will see this change live
* '''April 3rd''': Wikipedias will see this change live

This change is very similar to the "Typography Update" Beta Feature that has been available on Wikimedia projects since November 2013. After several rounds of testing and with feedback from the community, this Beta Feature will be disabled and successful aspects enabled in the default site appearance. Users who are logged in may still choose to use another skin, or alter their [[Special:MyPage/vector.css|personal CSS]], if they prefer a different appearance. Local [[MediaWiki:Common.css|common CSS]] styles will also apply as normal, for issues with local styles and scripts that impact all users.

For more information:
* [[mw:Typography refresh|Summary of changes and FAQ]]
* [[mw:Talk:Typography refresh|Discussion page]] for feedback or questions
* [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/03/27/typography-refresh/ Post] on blog.wikimedia.org

-- [[m:User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling]] (Product Manager) on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Design|User Experience Design]] team
</div>


: The more open font in the body text will take a little getting used to, but it could be worse. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:09, April Fools 2014 (UTC)
:: +1. (My initial thought was: "Let's hope this is an April Fool's joke!", but it's not ''that'' bad.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I actually find the text in "diff" pages much more legible. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Wikibreak. ==

I am feeling a bit burned out. I'll be back in a week or so. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== vandalism ==

As a relatively new user looking at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] I've just noticed that only administrators and bots automatically have their edits patrolled, which means that there is no way to filter out edits by experienced users from RC. Why don't you give <tt>autopatrolled</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> rights to non-admin users (by creating a user group)?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    09:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
: As far as I know, RC does not have a filter for autopatrolled users. NP does, but the number of new pages per day in this wiki is quite small compared to Wikipedia. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::It has in Wikidata and Commons … <s>do you have patroller rights?</s>    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    17:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::As an admin you probably do. The URL on Wikiquote should be https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1, if you are autoconfirmed on Wikidata you can find it [https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&hidepatrolled=1 here.    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    18:10, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote:Village pump

2014-04-03T17:42:50Z

FDMS4: /* vandalism */ RE

__NEWSECTIONLINK__
{{Wikiquote:Village pump/Header}}

== Scientology ==

What does the community make of this edit by [[user:Cirt]] on the [[Scientology]] page?

These ten quotations (actually eleven entries, but one is a duplicate) only mention Scientology tangentially, and are all primarily about est or Werner Erhard and seem to have been cherry-picked to give a misleading impression that there is a far stronger connection to Scientology than existed in reality.

For example

*" The founder of EST, a former member of the Scientology church called Werner Erhard..."
*"*Est (Erhard Seminars Training) has been a singularly successful synthetic derivation, which has itself gone on to generate new movements, transmitting aspects of Scientology thought or practice far from the domain of L. Ron Hubbard."
*"Rupert (1992) discusses a range of cases... such as the human potential movement, est, or Scientology."
*"...and est/Forum was a repackaging of Scientology by Werner Erhard,..."
*"Werner Erhard's highly successful est cult is partly derived from Scientology."

etc.

The fact of the matter is that Erhard did a few Scientology courses in the space of five months in early 1970, at a time when he was avidly investigating a vast range of philosophies and disciplines, but that is not the impression that a reader of this page would be left with.

Does it not reflect negatively on the reputation of Wikiquote to have the Scientology page commandeered to serve as a coatrack to propagate misleading information about other organizations and individuals?

It may be relevant that Cirt has an extensive history of POV-pushing on these subjects on wikipedia, and in fact was de-sysopped and topic-banned for exactly that behavior [[w:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466#Remedies|there]]. After that, he concentrated on other wikimedia projects (where he has undoubtedly done a good deal of great work), but perhaps he cannot resist the temptation to return to his obsessions? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:'''Reply:''' {{done}}. I've gone ahead and voluntarily taken the initiative to move those above-mentioned quotes to the talk page, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=1654965&oldid=1643592 DIFF]. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to {{user|MLKLewis}}. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I do not feel that Cirt's response fully adresses my concerns. Although he has removed the five items that I listed above by way of example, he has left the other five equally questionable entries on the page. And what is the justification for inserting the removed material into the Talk page, which is meant to be for discussions about how to improve the Topic page?

Furthermore, is not the intense activity this last October at this page:
https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Landmark_Forum&offset=&limit=100&action=history
a further example of Cirt's attempting to hijack Wikiquote to propagate a personal viewpoint, an activity for which he was sanctioned at Wikipedia? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 07:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{user|MLKLewis}}, I'm glad you've acknowledged that I went ahead and removed entries from that page. If you participate in talk page discussion on the individual page I hope we can come to an amicable resolution together about this. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Quotes about notable social implications of technology ==

I would like to add quotes about particular scientific developments to Wikiquote. Is this ok?[[User:Open Research|Open Research]] ([[User talk:Open Research|talk]]) 13:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

:It should be perfectly fine as long as the subject fulfills [[WQ:N|our notability guideline]]. As a general rule of thumb, if there's a Wikipedia page, it's notable enough. Is there a particular development you want to add? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 01:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== Delete (not just lock) simple.wikiquote.org? ==

The simple-English wikiquote project at http://simple.wikiquote.org has been locked for some time, but it's still visible on the web, so it hasn't been fully closed. The simple English version of (apparently) 591 pages taints the whole project by making it look infantile - an impression reinforced by all those pages on the main site that use kindergarten-style images of galaxies and flames to illustrate abstract ideas. Isn't it time to remove it? [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 21:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: Though there are clearly many differences of opinion between us on many matters, here is something I believe we can agree upon. I never really liked the idea much, but for a time it was clear that at least a few others did, and I am usually loathe to suppress efforts of others needlessly. The quality of their productions never did find broad appeal, and their enthusiasms were eventually dismissed, derided and suppressed by others, and the project killed. As it seems to be a thoroughly defunct site, I believe its presence on the web should probably be removed, and would support any efforts to have this done, within whatever guidelines the Wikimedia Foundation have developed for doing so. ''R.I.P. Simple Wikiquote. So it goes…'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I also agree that it ought to be deleted. About three years ago, after the [[m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Simple English Wikiquote (3)|decision to "close" the project]] but before official policy for closures was adopted, I [[m:User talk:SPQRobin#Merging simple.wikiquote into en.wikiquote|discussed the final disposition]] of the ''WikiParaphrase'' project with a LangCom member, but I did not initiate formal proceedings at the time. If someone would like to do so, the official venue is at [[m:Proposals for closing projects]], and is governed by [[m:Closing projects policy]] under the auspices of [[m:Langcom|LangCom]] delegated by the Foundation Board. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:QoDList]] ==

This new template transcludes {{tl|QoDBar}} and is able to output a list of all Quotes Of The Day for a given month, via [[Module:QoD]]. So [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 2014]] and such wouldn't have to be handled manually. Do you support implementing it practically? --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
: It is not immediately obvious to me how this works. Viewing the new [[Template:QoDList]], the output of "#invoke:QoD|list" is null. I am guessing, from examining the code of [[Module:QoD]], that it depends on the context where the template is transcluded. Could you provide a sample page exemplifying use of the new template in a context where the module output is non-null, and consider fleshing out some documentation or usage notes at [[Template:QoDList/doc]] and/or [[Module:QoD/doc]]? Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]]: it depends on the page, but the month-year pair can also be specified manually (as <nowiki>{{#invoke:QoD|list|June 2013}}</nowiki>). You can see {{tl|QoDList}} in action on [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013]] ([{{fullurl:Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013|diff=1662309&oldid=1646908}} {{int:diff}}]). I also added some docs, feel free to edit them. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 15:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

== Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James ??? ==

[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=William_James&oldid=1664112&diff=prev DIFF] = Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James.

Does this community think this is too many images for a page?

Does the community feel this will cramp down on loading time for our readers, discouraging them from viewing pages on Wikiquote?

Does the community feel this will make load time difficult for editors, turning them off from editing Wikiquote?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:This member of this community does NOT think "this is too many images for a page." '''The VERY highly used Wikimedia Commons places FAR more images on a standard page.''' I can appreciate that some people who do not have fast connections (for whatever reasons this might be the case) will not easily appreciate ''many'' of the pages on the internet with graphics. Yet I do not believe that these relative few who do not use some auxiliary browsers set for faster browsing without images, to hasten the time of downloading pages without such graphics as are quite standard on MOST web-pages today, should keep our pages permanently crippled to a highly constrained standards which might have made some sense 10 years ago, but are hardly appropriate today. '''I believe nothing is more likely to be "turning anyone off" from editing Wikiquote than such bossiness with constraints as a ''very few'' people have been increasingly pushing here in recent years — by which they can control more of what others can or cannot do, and reducing the options available to others here in ways I have frankly found disgusting and contemptible, and often extremely hypocritical — and I am quite ready to make plain some of the reasons why in the coming months.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Whatever the merits or faults of the policy, it's clear that this part of it has frequently been ignored by some editors:

::"'''Dispute resolution''' An image that is not a literal representation of the subject of the page may be removed by any editor who believes it to be inappropriate. Thereafter, it should not be re-added without first obtaining consensus on the article talk page."

Perhaps it might be better to follow established and unambiguous policy rather than ignore it merely because (apparently) an editor doesn't like it? - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

:: '''I have sometimes engaged in [[w:direct action|direct action]] of rather mild and moderate [[civil disobedience]] in accord with the principles of [[Justice]] and [[Liberty]] that others seem quite satisfied to give little more than a lot of shallow and safe "lip service" to.''' In this particular case, I view "the merits or faults of the policy" that was devised by a few people some months ago as nothing more or less than thoughtlessly or deliberately giving free reign to those most eager to '''[[Censorship|censor]]''', VANDALIZE and remove any traces of MANY of the IDEAS and ''efforts'' of others to make generally important points and generally appealing presentations of the quotes here.''' I am actually inclined to use far harsher terms, but restrain myself for now.''' Even at the start I recognized these proposed "rules" as contemptible and unworthy of any significant respect, as simply devices providing ''implicit'' sanction and approval to the most narrow-minded, intolerant and malicious of people, most eager to denigrate the contributions of others, to destroy as rapidly as they could, and with VERY little consideration, what others might have taken months or years of careful consideration to gradually produce. '''I truly consider the fact that so inanely destructive and foully ''[[fascist]]'' an "ideal" and ''practice'' as those INNATELY unjust "policies" represent have not been recognized as such by others as simply disgraceful.''' Such an atmosphere created by the increasing arrogance and smug intolerance of those who seek to control and constrain others, and the bafflement and disgust of those who wish to contribute in the spirit of liberty advocated by the greatest of people, and which was one of the foundational principles of the wiki software, and the Wikimedia projects themselves is what I believe far more people than myself find appalling and sometimes discouraging.

:: Prior to the above statement I was going to make this relevant point: A standard setting at Wikimedia Commons, which is the source of all the imagery available to us, provides 200 image thumbnails to a page, and such is what I get quite swiftly when I click on '''[[commons:Category:Nature|Category:Nature]]'''. This once could mean a very long download time, but certainly does not with most users who are likely to do much browsing on the internet at all today. I certainly do not plan to use that many on any article page here — but to make large pages with even dozens of images on them, which are relatively rare and probably always will be, seem incredibly burdensome to most users is something I believe is ludicrous. I would probably spend more time saying a bit more, but I have to be leaving now, and am already running a bit late on important matters. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::I agree with the comment by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. However with regards to this particular page I will leave it to others to hopefully take action here regarding the violations of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] that have taken place, as noted by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Block ==

Please block [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:YODO_(You_Only_Die_Once) User:YODO (You Only Die Once)], this user is obviously immature, one example is stating in one of his edit summaries: ''Get a life you sockpuppet!''. I spoke with DanielTom at Meta. I will be here to revert his vandal-edits. To be honest, I don't care if I engage in an edit war. The administrators here are not very active. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Goldenburg111]] ([[User talk:Goldenburg111|talk]]) 18:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:Looks like no admin is around right now, so I've blocked that user for one day. Please review the action and take (if needed) further action. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 20:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:I yet blocked another user: [[User:Tell me about it!]]. As above, review the action taken and adjust it as you seem it fits. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks, both have been re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Personally, I would do a 3 month block, but that's me. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks, I just issued another block on {{user|DarknessFalls74}}. As with the two above, please review the action taken and adjust it as needed. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks, the user is re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback ==

I am requesting rollback permission is so I can easily rollback vandal edits. I also "participated in the [[User:YODO (You Only Die Once)]] vandal attack", and it was pretty hard undoing his edits and I usually got into edit conflicts. Clarifying that Rollback Rights are given to users to easily revert '''pure''' vandalism. I just tagged a few spam pages for deletion and reverted a vandal-only account's action of a page recently. I am also a rollbacker on the Simple English Wiktionary, and of course, I would be in big trouble if I was lying. I am an Anti-Vandal Worker at Meta and Wikipedia. I am also an admin and bureaucrat on the Orian Test Wiki and admin at the Test Wiki. I am also, at Wikia, currently an admin on 10 wikis and crat on 5 of those wikis. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:The best thing for you to do would be to request Adminship at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] so that the merits of your request can be discussed and determined. My sense is that you have made many positive edits and reverted plenty of vandalism. The only question might be the relatively short period of time in which you have been editing here, but that may or may not be a large stumbling block. In the end, it would be best to formally request it and let the discussion begin. Good luck. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]])
::Okay, thanks UDScott, one question, can I take this subject off? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I would just leave it and maybe direct readers to the [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] page, should they wish to contribute to the discussion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@UDScott: I feel it is unwise to encourage Golden to run for adminship so prematurely, as he wouldn't stand a chance (despite his best intentions), and the result could upset him. @Golden: even if you don't have rollback rights, you can still revert vandalism. I know you want to help out, but please try to be patient. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::@DanielTom: As quoted by Jimbo Wales, "no big deal". --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Goldenburg111 does not realise that on WQ, only admins can be granted rollback.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:(Is this true? Abramsky, what do your <s>elf</s> admin eyes [[Special:UserRights|see]]?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:: It is not a separately grantable user right at Wikiquote: there is no "Rollbacker" user group like at Wikipedia. Rollback is included in the rights of the Administrator group, as shown at [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. (The corresponding configuration at Wikipedia is much more complex and [[Bureaucracy|bureaucratic]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Request for comment on Commons: Should Wikimedia support MP4 video? ==

''I apologize for this message being only in English. Please translate it if needed to help your community.''

The Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Multimedia|multimedia team]] seeks community guidance on a proposal to support the [[w:MP4|MP4 video format]]. This digital video standard is used widely around the world to record, edit and watch videos on mobile phones, desktop computers and home video devices. It is also known as [[w:MP4|H.264/MPEG-4 or AVC]].

Supporting the MP4 format would make it much easier for our users to view and contribute video on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects -- and video files could be offered in dual formats on our sites, so we could continue to support current open formats (WebM and Ogg Theora).

However, MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, and using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only supporting open formats on our sites -- even though the licenses appear to have acceptable legal terms, with only a small fee required.

We would appreciate your guidance on whether or not to support MP4. Our Request for Comments presents views both in favor and against MP4 support, based on opinions we’ve heard in our discussions with community and team members.

[[commons:Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video|Please join this RfC -- and share your advice]].

All users are welcome to participate, whether you are active on Commons, Wikipedia, other Wikimedia project -- or any site that uses content from our free media repository.

You are also welcome to join tomorrow's [[m:IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours|Office hours chat on IRC]], this Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC, if you would like to discuss this project with our team and other community members.

We look forward to a constructive discussion with you, so we can make a more informed decision together on this important topic. [[m:User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


: I am not sure anyone here is qualified to translate from English to Quotish, but if somebody wants to give it a try.... ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Global sysops ==

Hello Wikiquote community!

As you may have seen, I recently blocked some accounts on this project in my capacity as [[m:Stewards|steward]]. In the light of the fact that this project has only few really active sysops, I'd like to suggest you to allow [[m:Global sysops|global sysops]] acting on your project. Those users are being elected on meta to help small projects with the removal of vandalism etc. They're generally supposed to not act like a normal locally elected admin and will mostly only act in emergencies. I could imagine that this would help here from time to time. While I'm technically able to issue blocks or delete page (just as any other steward), I feel rather uncomfortable doing this, as I'd rather see that done by local people.

I could very well imagine that this would help here. Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed and the same would be needed to remove them at any point when needed. Please take your time and consider this idea carefully. If you've any further questions, please feel free to ping me. Kind regards, -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:Barras, why would you feel uncomfortable blocking obvious rampant vandals? I agree with you, that it should be preferably done "by local people", but global sysops aren't "local" either, and I don't understand how global sysops would do a better job in answering emergencies and stopping rampant vandals than stewards do (besides, as far as I know, there are many more stewards than global sysops). Recent vandalism spree aside (which was done by sockpuppets that need to be checked and blocked), I believe the ideal solution is to have more ''local'' active admins, which is why I suggested [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] to run for adminship again. (At least that would be my preference.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Stewards can't watch everything, simply put. Global sysops help fill in the gaps of steward coverage, which I believe was one reason the group was created in the first place.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]|[[:m:User talk:Jasper Deng|meta]]) 04:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:I would support adding GS, but I have a COI as I am one myself. ;) See my contributions for all the stuff I could have blocked if this wiki were opted-in. Of course, it's up to the community. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Per PiRSquared17. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Smaller projects should always opt in for Global Sysops, since it is not that simple to get more active local admins. Should the en.q community start a discussion about opting in, I would support (and I have no COI). --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Global sysops cheapen local adminship, and only in cases of the utmost necessity (e.g. really small wikis) should they be opted-in. I, for one, tend to think that any help fighting vandalism should be welcomed. Unfortunately, judging by recent comments on a local unrelated discussion, we can't even expect stewards to stay neutral, let alone global sysops. There are further problems, related to WQ's specific policies, which I'm not even going to get into. I would like to highlight, though, that the description of global sysops as "''highly trusted users''" should make any thinking person suspicious. Just when did we elect these global sysops? I don't remember voting for any of them myself. Sure, there are some very well-meaning, good users in this group, for example [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|Érico Júnior Wouters]] and [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]]. But I can also see a couple of names I very strongly ''distrust'', of cruel unhelpful people whose apparent job it is to collect hats, and whom I very much doubt would ''ever'' be elected local sysops via normal process. That's my warning, for what it's worth (not much). I think GS should only be opted in after a strong consensus for it amongst our established admins. (I doubt such a consensus will ever be achieved, but who knows.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Global sysopship (along with global rollback and some other global groups) is requested on [[m:SRGP]]. For example, [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_PiRSquared17|my request]], [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_.C3.89rico_J.C3.BAnior_Wouters|Érico]]'s request. Anyone can comment on a candidate. Global sysops ''only ever act'' (in theory) when the request is uncontroversial (such as spam/vandalism) and no local admins are around to deal with it. Does that answer some of your questions? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well, as you know, Meta elections are kind of a joke. People who'd have no chance of being elected admins at Wikipedia again get elected global sysops... And although it is said that if we opt-in, we can then also opt-out, it's more of a one-way street, as I think it would be very difficult to establish a consensus to opt-out afterwards. Obviously global sysops can't be locally desysopped, so we need to be careful. Your description of what they can do seems misleading. It appears to me that global sysops can act without being requested, and they don't just revert obvious vandalism, but also engage in "routine maintenance" (their purpose per policy), which in turn means they, who are not familiar with Wikiquote's policies, may end up deleting pages they shouldn't. And again, it's not as if we can't ask the help of stewards to block vandals in case of emergency. It also seems to me that Wikiquote is actually [[m:Global sysops#Scope|out of scope]] for GS, and I would very much like to hear what our local admins think of this proposal, though I doubt they will be so blunt as me in saying that it threatens Wikiquote's independence. I still think the solution for Wikiquote is through local admins, and if global sysops are so eager to help (*cough*), they can go through the normal process and be elected here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: To clear up a couple misunderstandings:
:::# [[m:Global sysops|Global sysops]] are not elected. They are appointed by Stewards after taking public comment. They serve at the pleasure of the Stewards, assisting with their workload by handling routine tasks that do not require more advanced rights.
:::# Wikiquote is not out of scope. Any project can opt in or opt out: the default described in the policy applies only to projects that do not opt either way.
::: Whether you trust the Stewards to appoint people who can be trusted to respect the bounds of their role, whether you trust the Stewards to step in if someone exceeds those bounds, that is your call. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Global sysops perform routine maintenance. That is their purpose. In practice, this amounts to spam, vandalism/long-term abuse, and noncontroversial routine requests. If enwikiquote is opted in, GS will surely respect local policies, but you can't expect us to read every single wiki's policies before acting. At least I haven't (but I do usually look at the deletion reason dropdown to see if they have a similar "speedy deletion" criterion to what I will use. I almost never block.). Usually the stuff we do is completely noncontroversial, and we tend only to act in emergencies or when local admins are unavailable. [[m:Special:WikiSets/7]]: enwikiquote and plwikiquote are the only Wikiquotes opted out of GS help. Ningauble is correct that any project can opt in or out. The scope on Meta is just the default. Also: being a global sysop is much easier and less complicated than being a local admin on (English or another large) Wikipedia, as you mentioned. Global sysops ''only'' do noncontroversial maintenance tasks, whereas an admin on enwiki is expected to be able to determine consensus, deal with private matters, act in controversial cases or in drama like ANI, etc. In fact becoming a steward might [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chenzw/Reports/Draubb&diff=prev&oldid=7138137 be easier] than having a successful enwiki RfA. Do you think [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Global_permissions&oldid=7271149#Global_sysop_for_JurgenNL this] ongoing RFGS is a joke? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, I'm glad to see two global sysops (Rschen and yourself) admitting that becoming a ''steward'' (=> access to IPs) could be much easier than getting ''adminship'' – good heavens! am I the only one who thinks something is terribly wrong here? If this is true of stewards, it must be even more so of global sysops, and I might add I personally am shocked and offended to see that someone like Rschen is a global sysop. Opting in will be something of a historical moment for WQ, because in truth there is no turning back, even if ''theoretically'' we could opt out again – who would then be willing to oppose global sysops?, how would we ever reach that consensus? In any case, those were just a few observations before our admins gave their opinions, and as they apparently don't seem to mind GS being opted in, it might just be that you'll have your wish. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::If you're going to attack me, at least get my quote right - I said that it is much easier than getting adminship ''on en.wikipedia''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Not sure, who "attacks" who. I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Daniel_Tom%C3%A9&diff=559458856&oldid=559445353 this]. Pretending that a public rename is a sock, just to defame my real name, that seems to me much more of an "attack" than my saying I am offended that you are are in any position of responsibility. I see you keep trying to collect hats, and that after recently failing to get CU on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get ''stewardship'' at Meta. What a disgrace. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Who is attacking who is you. What Rschen did at that particular diff is standard practise at enwiki, if a user is deemed a sock, they are tagged. The fact the account existed even a rename means the account exists ergo, a sockpuppet. The fact Rschen failed to get CU is like me failing to get rollback here and then asking for Bureaucrat at Wikidata, they have 0% relation. Also your description of Rschen actually willing to help out Wikimedia is the disgrace here. Good faith volunteers deserve credit, not defamatory comments. Now that is said, get back to doing something constructive unlike we've seen at metawiki. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: The guy who admits to never editing articles tells me to go do "something constructive". Why do you show up here, just to share your ignorance on the difference between socks and public renames? I challenge ''you'' to try and make a single edit to an article before commenting here again and embarrassing yourself further. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Whether I edit articles now or not is '''my''' choice. Nothing for you to comment on simply because you're losing the 'but mom, Rschen is the one being mean!' battle. Oh and yes, maybe I don't edit articles but hey, I am constructive. I do SWMT work, did a month of administrator work at a small wiki and do some-what active work on Wikidata. And on enwiki, I active help new users get accounts. See, I give people accounts not create them for myself and then abuse them. Now, as I said, be constructive anyway you want except through derogatory comment at Rschen and arguing about how people follow polices when dealing with clearly abusive users. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: You still haven't made even 1 edit to articles, and most likely never will. Calling me abusive doesn't count as an article edit. You have nothing to contribute to Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why don't '''both''' of you stop? Instead of bickering? You guys are acting like children here! I would suggest both of you stop this pointless discussion. Wikiquote's Village Pump is not for both of you to bicker about pointless stuff. I expect better from both of you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:35, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Just shut up about god damn editing of articles. I am not violating policies by not doing it. Last comment here. Future comments I'd like at my talk page. If not, I'll just move them over. Peace. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Did I hit a nerve? Do you feel embarrassed for never editing articles? I certainly would. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
* I would not be averse to opting in. Having been unable to give as much time to Wikiquote myself in recent months as in previous years, no longer being able to review the entire RC log every day, I have a sense that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
*: ''Non sequitur'', as global sysops can ''already'' patrol recent changes, just like any other user; problem is, most of them ''just don't bother to'', and this is very unlikely to change even if we opt-in. (What would change is, someone who already patrols recent changes could notify them at Meta of vandal attacks, and they would then be able to step in and block the vandals. But if you think that global sysops are going to start magically reviewing every change to articles once they are opted-in, you are just fooling yourself.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*:: What follows from my observation is that I believe a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, more things than when I was patrolling more. I did not say, and it does not follow (''non sequitur'') that global sysops would patrol in the manner that I used to do, nor that nothing would slip through the cracks. Things have always slipped through the cracks anyway. What would follow is more [[w:Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates#Popular culture: the legend of the boy and the dike|little Dutch boys]] plugging more of the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*::I'm sure [[m:SWMT]] will monitor enwikiquote, if it doesn't already. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
*:::It does since yesterday (a contributor from this wiki requested it to be added on IRC). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
* I agree. I think the benefits of having off-project admins able to step in and stop vandalism outweigh any downside. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*: These global sysops can already revert vandalism, they just don't do it, because they don't patrol WQ's recent changes. They would only be of help in case someone who does patrol it should ask them to block rampant vandals. But for this there already are stewards, who are more in number than global sysops. Opting in will be a historically bad decision. WQ is almost the only wiki standing independent, like a diamond in the desert, but you seem to be willing to trade its independence for nothing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*Agree with these comments by {{u|Ningauble}} and {{u|BD2412}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to close this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
* Late here, but I'm also in support of opting in here.  [[User:Hazard-SJ|Hazard]] [[User talk:Hazard-SJ|SJ]]  20:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am not adamantly hostile to the idea, but I really have not as yet examined the issues involved much, and certainly would not wish to rush into opting in. As there is at least one prominent editor who I generally respect who seems adamantly opposed, I remain reluctant to support it at this point. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*:That's fine, take your time. There's no rush to decide whether you want GS or not, obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone else would comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

* In the light of the recent events concerning the request to a global block, I am far from convinced that global sysops and their supporters can overcome the cultural differences. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Global sysops have nothing to do with global blocking or locking. That is a steward thing. Yes, stewards and global sysops have some things in common, but really there is a huge difference. However, I can see how this would change your opinion of Meta, cross-wiki maintenance, etc. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
* I personally don't feel this wiki has a need for a GS opt-in and looking at [[Special:ActiveUsers]] I would rather refuse to perform any actions here. Unless the community wants the GS to play a significant role in countervandalism work (which I don't expect) I am not supporting any movement towards an opt-in. Please also note my COI in this case. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Thanks for your comments, Vogone. I would generally agree, except in cases where a vandal is around when no admins are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
As a strong believer in democracy, and in the independence of each wiki, I would like to urge everyone again to be extra careful here. Many people try to interfere with wiki processes and decision making in ways we are not (and can't even be) aware of. If you want an example, see [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34220 this leaked discussion] of ArbCom, and read what they say about Wikiquote. This has happened before, and will happen again, sooner or later. Everyone has their own interests in mind, which is fine, but ''we'' responsible Wikiquote editors should resist and not give away power to outsiders needlessly, and do our best to keep the Wikiquote project as independent as possible. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*::Being a global sysop is completely different from being on the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. Global sysops only deal with spam (including spambots, linkspam, etc.) and vandalism. I do not know exactly what made Barras start this discussion, but please note that nobody is trying to force this on you. If you decide against it, that's fine, but GS are experienced and willing to help with tasks that most would find tedious. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
*Would a local admin like to review the discussion above? Once that happens, if there is consensus to opt-in, stewards can remove enwq from the opt-out list. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 07:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
*:Bump. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 12:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
*::[[User:Mdd|Mdd]]: update? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
*:::@PiRSquared. I think Wikiquote will benefit from Global sysops's the most, if the most active users and local sysops's here see the need, and would welcome this initiative. At the moment only half of them do, and the other half have some kind of doubt. When it comes to granting administrator rights here on Wikiquote, there must be more consensus to do so.
*:::Now in the first comment here Barras explained "Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed". Frankly I don't see this discussion as a vote. I am used (at the Dutch Wikipedia), that before some kind of vote started, there first must be an announcement at the Village pump; And I have more or less considered this discussion as such an announcement. Shouldn't a real vote be held at a page, such as [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]], during a limited period? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::::As far as I see it, only clear consensus in favour of opting in to GS needs to be provided. Which process the community undergoes to reach that is probably irrelevant to the stewards and at the discretion of the local community. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 19:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:::::Let it be clear, that the vote Barras suggested hasn't taken place; In such a situation it would be not appropriate to let a local administrator review this discussion, as Ajraddatz suggested. There is in my opinion no clear consensus about either the procedure, either about the subject to opt-in the Global sysops here. Let it also be clear that only a handful of active Wikiquote users have participated in this matter. In order to get more clearance, and a larger participation I propose to start a vote at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] for a period of a week, which can be accepted when 75% of the participants agree. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
[[File:Piazza del Plebiscito - Augusto De Luca.jpg|frameless|right]]
Another argument against opting-in: global sysops have recently been deleting a userpage by a user, consisting of a simple picture (right), on hundreds of wikis, claiming it is spam. Here too, the userpage was tagged for deletion, by a global sysop [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Augusto_De_Luca&diff=1701918&oldid=1700992], with the rationale: "crosswiki spam". The speedy deletion was declined, replace by a Prod, and now a [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca|VfD]] is taking place. I predict the page will eventually be deleted. But then, you ask, wasn't tagging the page, suggesting that it be deleted, proper after all? Yes, it was. Then what is the problem? The problem, you see, is that it was only tagged, and not outright deleted, because global sysops are not opted in here. (I say, we should keep it that way.) Each community should be allowed to weigh in, and decide for themselves what to do in cases like this... ''roar''... ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Global sysops usually don't delete pages on wikis with local active sysops even if the wikis are opted-in. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 11:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*[[User:Barras]]: as stated by [[User:Mdd]]. No. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Admin nomination of Kalki ==

As some are aware, I was once an admin here (from 29 January 2004 to 1 December 2009), and I have now nominated myself to regain adminship at '''[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship‎‎ |Requests for adminship‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

----

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] states that "Adminship nominations must be posted for '''at least one week''', to provide opportunity for comments and voting, before a bureaucrat will make the promotion if warranted". This sets a minimum time but not a maximum. We have routinely allowed these discussions to stay open for longer times, to allow the community the greatest opportunity to find and weigh in on the discussion (see, e.g., [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Mdd]]). Indeed, since your request for closure, an additional opinion has been offered which has changed the proportion of support from 66.7% to 60%. I would give it a few more days. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, sounds good. Thank you, {{u|BD2412}}, I'll defer to your judgement. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== User Creation Logs ==

We need an active sysop to block the recent account creations. Since YODO was blocked, we have been getting some recent vandals here. Any opinions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yeah, there's definitely a vandal/sock attack currently. I'm watching and can get stewards if needed. Maybe [[User:Jni]] could help...? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[User:Mdd|Mdd]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::And thank you both. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'll be online for next couple hours and can help with pest control for sure! I was tracing one sock/vandal from en-wp to here in fact. I've been mostly inactive for few years so please tell me if I do something stupid with the admin tools. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I am thinking about adding a template where we can place it on a user talk page saying that their name is not appropriate for wikiquote. But we need a sysop to block the inappropriate username. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions ==

Anyone can contribute to [[User:Goldenburg111/Wikiquote in 2014]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
: The page says "This page is to document issues with Wikiquote since January 1, 2014." What kind of issues? I for one think that we need a complete top down reimagining of the software, so that quotes can be sorted by every kind of data (topic, author, date, kind of work, etc.). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Issues = Sockpuppetry, canvassing by Cirt at Meta, causing drama and disruption. Different sockpuppeters and new accounts made for vandalism. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::: It's your userspace, you're free to do as you will with it. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment:''' I understand that Kalki and I have had disagreements over interpretations of his behavior patterns in the past. For this reason after much thought I've decided not to comment further upon the ongoing RFA. I'll instead respectfully defer to the community in the discussion there. Have a great day, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::: While it's your userspace, you can collect notes of that nature there if want to, but is it really that constructive activity? Sounds like stirring more drama and disruption. Sockpuppet notice board might be useful though, especially tracking for cross-wiki sockpuppeteers. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 10:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thank you jni for clarifying, is it okay to add notes about main points instead of specific users being "called out"? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is certainly better than calling out individual users. But I'd avoid even creating such a page in first place. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think there is any policy forbidding user's maintaining bulletin/notice board kind of pages in their user space (and I'd hate bureaucrazy like that here). [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 15:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Citation error ==

Hey, I've got no idea what's wrong with the citations over at [[Stephenie LaGrossa]]. All I did was copy it over from Wikipedia. Is citation style different here? [[User:Survivorfan1995|Survivorfan1995]] ([[User talk:Survivorfan1995|talk]]) 18:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hi. You forgot to add <nowiki><references/></nowiki>, but in any case Wikiquote's [[Wikiquote:Templates#Formatting guidelines|formatting guidelines]] are a bit different than those of Wikipedia, so I've re-formatted the article accordingly. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

== Activist group public relations announcement being put forward as a 'quote' ==

As shown in [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Abortion&diff=0&oldid=1674179 this edit], an IP editor is repeatedly inserting an announcement by an anti-abortion activist organization, an announcement that is not notable, nor is it traceable to a single person. As such, I don't think it can be called a quote. This IP editor has in the past repeatedly tussled with me over the attribution of abortion quotes, challenging the findings of Ann D. Gordon who is the top scholar on Susan B. Anthony's life. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== WikiProject Name Confusion ==

Hi Wikiquote and all of it's fellow members! I am thinking about a Wikiquote WikiProject. I want to create a wikiproject that encourages users to clean up at least one article in a week. In a few months, the cleanup categories would be blank! I am still struggling on the name of the project. Any suggestions for the name? Or any suggestion on the Project itself? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:How about WikiProject Weekly Cleanup? Direct and to the point. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks BD2 for your suggestions. I think that's a good name. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's one as well WikiProject: Article Cleanup project? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] 22:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: I think we've preferred to call them pages rather than articles here (to contrast with Wikipedia's "article" space and Wiktionary's "entry" space). Come to think of it, we really don't have the tradition of WikiProjects here that Wikipedia does, although we could surely use some. For example, we could coordinate with [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Law|WikiProject Law]] and [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine|WikiProject Medicine]] to improve our pages covering these specific fields. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I bet this one would benefit Wikiquote easily. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]] ==

You may feel free to join! Any suggestions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom]] ==
Hello, per [[m:Global bans]], a general requirement of a global bans request for comment is notify all projects where the user subject to the ban has editied. DanielTom is either an active editor or a past editor of this wiki and therefore I am notifying the project of this proposal. Everyone is welcome to go and voice their opinion of the proposal and about the user in general. Thanks, [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:Global bans can create serious consequences, I'd urge users to look at this ban proposal. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I have left my own comment of opposition to [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom|this '''''there''''']], and like '''Abd''' have requested a speedy dismissal of this as a quite unwarranted request. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Reading distorted descriptions of yourself painted in the worst possible light can be slightly amusing, or extremely depressing, considering how other people might take this garbage seriously. If anything, this shows how extremely unwise it is to edit under anything close to your real name, though I'm sure most people here don't need to be reminded of that. Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented there, I appreciate it. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
: I am glad to see you're back and this particular nonsense has ended. I would advise remaining ''cautious'' though. I, for years, have put up with some nonsense which in some ways has not been quite that immediately consequential — and am willing to continue to do so, with confidence that when truths are sufficiently assessed, whatever the faults or deficiencies I might have inadvertently manifested in the courses of events will clearly be perceived to not be the most grievous ones. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
* I am glad the ban request was quickly withdrawn before I wasted any time drafting an explanation of why it was a mistake. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am also glad, that this ban request is withdrawn. It would be nice if these past events would be resolved instead of keep coming back. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

== Main Page Images ==

The average number of images per quote of the day has gotten quite high, with there being 10 separate images on January 30 (which were, to this user, very difficult to look at). Was there ever a consensus reached about the number/size/quality of images on the main page, and if so, is it being followed? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
: Extensive discussion in 2011–2012 reached an apparent consensus that this is too much, but not how much is ok. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_35#Images_on_Main_Page] [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_36#Main_Page_and_images]) This nonspecific consensus was enforced for a time by removing ''all'' images pending adoption of a specific policy. Images returned to the main page just under a year ago, without any policy or guideline, and attempts to moderate their quantity have been reverted. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Wikiquote:Quote_of_the_day.2FApril_2013_-_lay_out]) In short: (1) no, there is no express consensus for what should be included, and (2) no, consensus for what should not be included, vague though it be, is not being followed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' I do not think the attempts to moderate the quantity of images on the Main Page should have been reverted. It is quite frustrating to see a community consensus summarily reverted and arbitrarily ignored. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I have followed the discussion on and off for the past few years, and I understand the two sides - that there is a consensus, and there is a very active minority that doesn't care for that consensus. Can we (well, you, since I'm not qualified) actually create a policy that reflects the consensus, or at the very least limits the number/size/quality of images (say, one on each side and a small one above and below, which, though still excessive, at least leaves the front page readable)? Or, alternatively, is it not even worth it? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 19:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::I echo the concerns of {{user|132.177.170.36}} and agree with the comments made here. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
----
I find the comments on this issue in this section rather misleading in various ways, but especially reject the implied assertions that any actual wide ranging consensus was arrived at after any substantial or extensive periods of active debate, despite the periods of months or years during which these contentions have sometimes VERY briefly occurred, and gone largely ignored by others, either unaware of them, or too disinterested or intimidated by the intensity of opinions to get involved.

Though sometimes I can do some rather quickly, It often takes much work and considerable effort and thought to produce a good layout, and I confess I do not always succeed to my own satisfaction with the materials available, but for many years I have done what I could with the quotes available here and the images available at the commons, and I believe that this service is a generally valued and appreciated one, based upon the comments of people with as yet little or no personal involvement here in the issue.

On 31 January 2012, there was an act of aggressive and arrogant '''''[[censorship]]''''' which was suddenly imposed by one admin who I believe simply sensed an opportunity to further harass and constrain my activities here with but little complaint likely from others most actively involved in these matters at the time. Clearly without much regard for permitting any further discussions, and inclined to take the most radically severe steps available, he decided to destructively edit what I believe was a quite good and relevant layout for February 3, a few minutes after I posted it:
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:DonMcLeanWestport2009.jpg|222px]] [[Image:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:SépultureCathelineau.JPG|121px]] ''I went down to the [[Holiness|sacred]] store Where I'd heard the [[music]] years before But the [[man]] there said the music wouldn't play And in the streets the [[children]] screamed The [[Love|lovers]] cried and the [[poets]] [[Dreams|dreamed]] But not a [[Words|word]] was [[Speaking|spoken]] The [[church]] [[bells]] all were broken And the three men I [[Admiration|admire]] most [[w:American Pie (song)|The Father, Son and Holy Ghost]] They caught the last [[Trains|train]] for the coast [[w:The Day the Music Died|The Day the Music Died]].'' ~ [[Don McLean]] ~ [[File:HollyMonument.jpg|121px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Buddy holly.jpg|234px]] [[File:American apple pie.jpg|234px]]
|}

'''After this edit ONLY the text remained, and ''none'' of the relevant imagery, which I had chosen to honor these artists and to commemorate some of the themes and ideas of their music.''' I myself, if I remember correctly, was in a hurry, and unable to edit it further, and had to leave soon after that.

I am able and willing to work with anyone, but I do anger somewhat at what I perceive to be various forms of injustice and hypocrisy which do arise all to frequently where people are not confronted with each other in face to face dialogue, and many rules can be rather extravagantly grown and even more extravagantly ignored or dismissed while some of the most aggressively denigrative of people are focussing upon and magnifying the relatively minor breaches of rules or merely expectations which others make.

This led to my DISGUST at the foully presumptive forms of impulses towards what I believe to be improper censorship and constraints which were becoming far more evident and boldly practiced on this site, which was founded and had existed for years quite uncontroversially as a wiki with acceptance of MAXIMAL freedoms of editors and MINIMAL rule by any officials, and led to my decision not to even bother adding them for at least a few days or weeks, when I believed I might have more time to address some of the precise quantitative restrictions which were being proposed in regard to various rather nebulous qualitative issues.

Further acts of abusive destruction occurred so regularly in the period after that, It was actually over a year, before I began adding images to the QOTD again partially in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 2013|March 2013]], and fully in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/April 2013|April]], [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/May 2013|May]], and ever since then, and once again, received more compliments than complaints, but those few who seem eager and willing to oppose these layouts have again banded together, while those who are not involved and perhaps do not wish to be involved in such contentious matters have remained unaware or uninvolved, as is their right.

Though I can honestly recognize that the layouts are not always so well developed or well honed as further time might permit, and I myself would have simplified some of them, but certainly not merely to decrease their visual size, had I had more time to consider things.

I also believe that over the years I have certainly received ''FAR more'' compliments both publicly and in private for my graphic presentations than complaints about them, despite the relatively few disparaging remarks a year that have arisen here because of them, and which have often been seized upon by those very little involvement here generally beyond supporting the constraints of others, and who seem most zealous to find ways to rigorously constrain and suppress some forms of presentation options.

I believe that there are now attempts by those who are often involved in little more than devising constraints and rules to bind others in such ways as they themselves would not find binding or uncomfortable at all to group together and impose their will suddenly and vigorously, as has sometimes occurred in the past.

'''This issue as well as others are some I believe should be elaborated upon more extensively in the coming weeks and months, and sufficient time for arguments to be presented and considered, and matters settled with more widespread involvement.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

: Kalki, to me, those pictures of american pies have too bright a color—they really do distract one's attention from the quote. And this is Wiki''quote''. All I can say, regarding this issue, is that ''I'' personally would do the QOTD layout differently, with fewer and smaller pictures, and more emphasis on the quote (incl. source). But Kalki has been the only one doing the QOTDs, for many years, and of course he is doing what looks ''to him'' the best. I don't think it's possible to convince Kalki that he is "wrong". ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I am still around, but quite later than I planned to be at getting started on several things elsewhere, and just briefly noting that I do believe matters can and should be more elaborately discussed, and in my relatively few contentions with people on what the best images available for pages have been, have always been willing to reach acceptable compromises or agreements, where alternatives are presented, but I believe efforts to rigorously constrain or entirely eliminate the use of imagery are very detrimental for many reasons, and I am willing to specify many reasons why later. I ''must'' get going now. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I hardly recognized Don McLean - I think Kalki does brilliant work and the images draw my eye to the word content -clumsily put, I mean draw mw to the whole thing, so the words get read - still I suppose there were iconoclasts who went round smashing in stained glass windows - some people seem puritan by nature and theres probably no pleasing them. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I thank you much for your appreciation. And I would note that I do believe images always serve as windows to a far more expansive range of ideas than text quotes alone usually do, and that is one of many reasons I believe them desirable. And I know that I am not alone in referring to photographs and graphic art works as "visual quotation" though the concept apparently remains unfamiliar to most. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
: There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum. I look forward to the actual exercise of Kalki's professed ability and willingness to work with anyone on this issue, so that a meaningful compromise may be found between [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1405414 no images at all] and [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=1580787 overwhelming that which is ostensibly being presented]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::''[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1678350&oldid=1678327 "There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum."]''. I for one strongly agree with these comments by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
[[File:N3 Etech05 Larry.jpg|thumb|It's a bumper sticker culture. People have to get it like that, and if they don't, if it takes three seconds to make them [[understand]], you're off their radar screen. ~ [[Larry Lessig]] ]]
::: Oh, my sometimes obviously passionate intensity in asserting honest opinions as effectively as I can against what I perceive to be various forms of error, false suppositions, or deliberate deceits can sometimes be very intimidating I suppose, but there obviously is no way that there is any attempt to intimidate in what an official admin might declare in imperious tones of condescension of apparently "Authoritative Objectivity" to anyone who disagrees with their own particular ranges of opinion or will. Seconded by another "admin" who in my honest opinion relies upon various forms of flattery and intimidation to retain what prestige, position and power he has attained. "Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum." That surely is PURELY objective and neutral assertion, simply asserted against the uncivil act of anyone arguing extensively against any one else's position — it seems no one could even conceivably or rationally disagree with that. ''Sarcasm intended here'' — yet I hope some of my silliness in presenting these sincere observations can be forgiven, as I forgive others for sometimes being so damned imperiously somber and officiously censorious about things. '''I generally like people, even many of those who often strongly disagree with me, and I like there being a variety of ideas and attitudes available to people — and as most artists would assert, images provide ways to introduce some of these to people in ways that would otherwise not occur.'''
::: That there actually might be people who find things more interesting with some indications of aspects of the quote they might not have known about or considered through the use of imagery, is something to be dismissed as mere "distraction" and promotion of "distraction", and such arguments merely "digression" from such hard and fast rules as some people wish to establish in a project that was created as one of many with implicit and sometimes EXPLICIT directives to avoid the hang-ups of having too many hard and fast rules — which the wise know can often be abused by people very casually in very many ways, against which most people often have little recourse.
::: '''I quote [[Larry Lessig]] with an image to emphasize that imagery IS useful in drawing people to contemplate the quote associated with the imagery, in ways text alone would NOT.''' As to compromises, I will try to refrain from more than 4 or 5 images, when there is no need for them to frame the text: there are generally 4 regions on the QOTD layout where images can be presented. I usually, but not always, attempt to use all of these to at least some extent, though until recently I usually preferred rather minor images above and below the quote, and I admit that sometimes I clearly have overdone things in ways that are not the best aesthetic arrangements possible. Usually that was because I was trying to present significant ideas which were relevant to the quote being used, or simply significant images of the author of the statement or its subject. I believe 2 good solid blocks of imagery to either side is usually desirable, and can accept that I should not attempt to put too many images in the layout, merely to present ideas present or implied in the quotes; but on larger quotes especially more than one image to either side is sometimes necessary to properly frame the entire text, and on smaller quotes images to the top and bottom allow the text to be framed in such a way as draws one's attention to it further, in ways that would not exist without some imagery. I believe there should always be a minimum of two images, and a maximum of 4 regions of imagery, generally not to exceed 50% of the area of main page, and preferably less than an third of it, even though absolute rules on that would make me uncomfortable. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::(I'm the topic starter; I just registered my account.) What I'm getting from this discussion is that essentially we have no choice but to hope Kalki keeps things under control, then? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 14:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Though we obviously differ strongly in our opinions on this matter, I thank you for creating an account here, and welcome you as a participant. I would certainly phrase things differently, and assert rather bluntly, that in accord with the principles with which Wiki software and Wikimedia projects were founded and developed: '''I seek to keep things from being under too much needless or detrimental "control" by ''anyone'', including myself.''' I have certainly NOT sought to exert any extraordinary ''control'' of things which I am not actively involved in as a regularly concerned ''participant'', here or anywhere, and seek to rigorously control nothing so much as ''my own actions'', rather than that of others. '''Usually I have sought to find ways, through various venues, including this one, to INDICATE diverse views on Truth and Beauty, Meaning and Purpose, and not merely those I myself find most valid or appealing, though, like most people, I generally would favor these.''' I believe that IF things are perceptively reviewed without the prejudices of presuming things have to be under some sort of absolutist controls, by people assuming or wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY, I have persistently sought to keep many things from becoming rigorously controlled by such impulses, all of my life. And '''I did not seek to ''establish'' such principles of behavior here — the wiki software and the wiki projects were ''already'' quite ''explicitly'' established with such aims and procedures in mind''' — I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as I do not believe proper, in either rational or ethical senses. I believe that even if sometimes they are manifest in mild forms, there are many ways the impulses to overly control things have been detrimental in far more ways than are apparent by the casual examinations of those who out of fears, hatreds, resentments or merely minor irritation, are most inclined to find ways to absolutely judge, condemn and punish others are likely to practice, and which require the more extensive examination of those who are more tolerant, patient, and willing to forgive error, without needlessly punishing it, and prone to let many diverse forms of participation in presentations arise. I have just now created a page for '''[[Solomon Asch]]''', to accompany one I have started on '''[[Philip Zimbardo]]''', and one I have helped develop on '''[[Stanley Milgram]]''', each of whom have contributed major insights into social psychology and the various ways group pressures can often corrupt moral assessments and rational competence, and have helped develop general ideas of the cognition necessary for recognizing and combatting '''[[Groupthink]]''' excesses of control over individual volition and choices. I would recommend them to anyone interested in reviewing some of the fundamentals of social psychology. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks

::::::You claim to act against people "wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY" but then later say "I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as *I DO NOT BELIEVE PROPER*" (emphasis mine that time). You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others. Once you start acting upon what you do and do not believe proper, consensus becomes irrelevant. This is no longer a collaborative project, but one that is based on your whims and desires.

::::::I ask everyone: should it be the latter? And if not, what can we do about it? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Again, quite frankly — I quite ''honestly'' state that I, like everyone, act for the most part on my beliefs and impressions, rather than try to pretend to anyone that such a path is simply "horrific" and intolerable — and as I have indicated many times, I try to keep my beliefs reasonable and in maximal harmony with verifiable [[Truths]], the vital virtues of [[Humility]], [[Courage]], [[Honesty]] and [[Compassion]] and principles of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]], and to the extent any "collective" or "individual" opposes these, and insists on absolute conformity in ways that are not innately necessary, I believe that to be an error of the type I have been inclined to label foully fascist, arrogant, tyrannical, and terroristic since I was a very young child. I can forgive people for doing such things, but I do not provide them my willing consent or approval, and if I can find ways of doing so, I seek to find ways to help people rise out of such errors and embrace paths of greater grace, and genuine harmony which only can come about by respect for eternal and enduring truths rather than either collective or individual wills as to how to characterize or serve such truths. I believe you obviously did not look at some of the suggested pages, or if you did, did not understand the statements that indicate where people passionately forbid certain forms of independence because "consensus becomes irrelevant " they are espousing views where '''''truth''''' and genuine rationality and morality quite often become irrelevant, in deference to force of "the collective". That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''." ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:::: In answer to the question above, "What can we do about it?" - It seems clear that nothing can be done about it. The visual appearance of the project is effectively under the control of one editor and there is no prospect that this situation will ever change. It's a remarkable and I think unprecedented situation in the Wiki-related universe. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::::Kalki said: That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''."

::::No, instead Kalki's particular interpretation of "truth" is always right. I have to sadly agree with the above, that as long as Kalki is allowed to define what is right, and is allowed to discount every other opinion because it does not fit "truth," "rationality," or "morality," this project is hopeless. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 21:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing prevents Macspaunday, or you, or anyone else, from working on it, selecting and creating a QOTD every single day, the way you see fit. I don't think Kalki could, or would, revert your efforts. But it would be a lot of work. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: '''Actually, it is not entirely true that they are free to do whatever they see fit; I myself am not entirely free to do entirely as I see fit, in all regards, and do not wish to be.''' While still an admin and a long admired one, I constrained myself and the selection processes to its current procedures, gradually over time, to allow maximum input in selections of QOTD from all who wished to be involved, and though there are currently very few who regularly participate now, Zarbon, for one, was once a frequent opponent in debates over which quotes should be selected, and he was actually quite effective in getting his way much of the time, but not so much of it as he might have wished.
:::::: In regard to larger issues: '''I quite often keep MANY of my opinions and many aspects of my knowledge reserved from overt presentation, yet sometimes I choose not to remain quiet about long constrained perspectives that indicate what I perceive of some of the deficiencies and flaws in the arguments and strategies of others. '''I might often out of convenience or necessity refrain from revealing some truths, but I certainly do not go about attempting to obscure truths on vitally important matters and principles, nor silence others from indicating their opinions of them, and when people do resort to attempting to do so in various ways, out of various irritations with the views of others, and my own or others arguments or tenacity in not bowing abjectly to theirs, '''I do not always "politely" defer to simply accepting their particular opinions or rather crude attempts to distort or defame mine or those of others, such as have most actively created and built these projects, rather than simply control what others can do.''' I know some people wish to try to make that seem "unconscionably" rude, but so be it. I state my case as ably as I believe proper and necessary, and let others state theirs. I have been doing the very extensive and occasionally contentious work for years, amidst some frustratations, but with general approval, and a few others seek to occasionally frustrate and absolutely constrain my assessments of what presentations would be optimal to what theirs would be, simply because thus far, a very few people band together, with assumptions they speak for a majority of others, to say they don't understand, don't accept and don't desire my contributions. '''Even though, throughout the years, I have had ''FAR more'' people I find far more generally respectable, say that they value them, I realize that such groups joined in their avid hostilities can indeed be a threat to many generally desirable liberties and freedoms — and such people often do get quite irate and intolerant of others rights when they are not abjectly obeyed.''' I am a person who has had my life genuinely threatened in literal ways, and not been cowed by such arrogance, nor deterred in seeking to protect the rights of myself and others; I am not prone to submit without need to those who seem adamant in their desires that excessive forms of constraint and command over the rights and liberties of others be accepted and deferred to, apparently without question nor even vigorous counter-arguments. — that's about all I can say right now, as I have to attend to some matters because I must be leaving soon, at least briefly. ''[[Blessings]] to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Can we step back from discussion of process, philosophy, and personality for a moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which was '''Main Page Images''' and, specifically, the quantity thereof? In particular, I would like to explore two specific points in the last paragraph of Kalki's post on 5 February 2014 at 18:53, beginning at the phrase "As to compromises", regarding ''necessity'' and ''proportion'' these images.
::# I don't think it has been demonstrated that it is ''necessary to frame the entire text'' of the QotD with images. When I first joined Wikiquote some years back the quote of the day was accompanied by one small image on the main page. It was framed by a colored box with a header and footer. I do not recall any great hue and cry, or any comment at all, about the lack of a ''necessary frame of images'' boxing the quote. If one were designing the main page from scratch, one might begin by listing possible features and classifying them as either vitally necessary, highly desirable, or wish-list items. I think including a quote of the day would rank quite high and adding an image would be very desirable but, in my opinion, including a montage of images would have little or no priority for the main landing page of a site devoted to quotations. I would certainly recommend against using a "frame" that dominates the entire page, which brings up the second point...
::# Devoting ''up to 50% of the page'' to this material is, in my opinion, completely out of proportion to other priorities for space on the project's main public portal. As remarked in an earlier discussion, it pushes everything else but the masthead below the fold. Even a third of the page strikes me as a disproportionate allocation among main elements of the page:
::::* Masthead
::::* Quote of the day
::::* Selected pages
::::* New pages
::::* Main categories
::::* Community
::::* Sister projects
::::* Other languages
:::: I suggest we consider illustrating the presentation of the quote of the day in proportion to that which is ostensibly being presented:  I think allocating ''one third of the QotD block'' to illustration would be a more appropriate upper limit than a third or a half of the entire page.
::: I welcome the thoughts and opinions of other contributors about what is necessary and what is proportionate for Wikiquote's main landing page. (I don't think discussion of process, philosophy, and personality is going to shed much light on those issues.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I know that very few things are "necessary" to accept as "necessary" in any absolute sense, but do believe that framing the text with image fields is quite aesthetically appealing to ''most'' people, and ''thus'' highly desirable for presentations. '''The ''only'' things which regularly change on the main page here are the QOTD and the New page listings which are directly below it, and so I do not think that it remaining a prominent portion of the page, actually less than 25% of the page in most cases, I believe, is at all undesirable for a primary presentation page.''' The other sections are certainly not all that less convenient to access, to anyone but those with very slow connections. Though I am doing some things out of consideration for those in such circumstances, such as stripping out most px specs and reducing the use of animations on pages, I have stated before I don't believe that those who still have such should be a primary constraint on the development of any of our wiki pages. I do believe that if their problems are extreme enough, they should simply shut off image displays on their primary browser, or use an alternate browser where such settings are used. I believe that reducing the size of the images, relative to the size of the quote, or to one third of the QOTD is a rather crude and extreme measure to simply minimize the size of images, the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds, which are increasingly uncommon among most users, and generally not accommodated as a primary concern at most sites on the internet, ''including'' Wikimedia ones. '''As I have previously stated, it is quite standard to get pages with well over a hundred images at the much more commonly visited Wikimedia commons.''' As usual, I am quite willing to honor general provisions which can be arrived at, but do not generally support creating overly detailed nor overly absolute constraints on any matters, in accord with the principles of innovation and adaptation with which the Wikis were founded. I believe a general agreement to keep the images proportional to the page, and usually less than 30% is a reasonable one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::: It's not about page loading time, it's about screen real estate on the main page. It is not a case of "the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds". The reasons given are pushing everything else below the fold, and proportion to relevance for the purpose of a home page. I think you are mistaken in considering the main page "a primary presentation page":  The home page is primarily a ''portal to the project''. Compare the ''[[commons:|home page]]'' of the Wikimedia Commons project to which you refer:  it has ''two'' pictures (one static and one media file), each of which is the focus of a dedicated section. (It also uses a few iconographic links, as does ours.) Of course a project that is primarily a repository of images and media files has many pages with many more images, but not on its main portal page – this example does not support your argument. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: We are all involved to varying degrees in various forms of presentations. I believe the people who normally are involved with the main page layout for the commons do a fine job, and generally understand that graphic layouts are important to sparking and developing interests in a broad variety of subjects, people and ideas — as are quotes. I believe that it is widely recognized that quotes used in conjunction with images and visual images in conjunction with text quotes can often do a far better job of generating interest, curiosity, contemplation and exploration than either generally would alone, and that highly formalized constraints on presentations simply limit the varieties of options available in composing such presentations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia's policy on having multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:I briefly posted this on the Administrator's Noticeboard, but realized it should be on this page instead. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I would like to note that the above link states specifically that "Kalki is limited to one account" and that this was an unprecedented restriction here, in reaction to controversies that arose because I had created multiple accounts, and was unapologetic for doing so, and at that time unwilling to state some of the reasons for them, or take issue with the matter, and that I had in fact already agreed to limit myself to editing from one account, and had not and have not in any way attempted to evade that restriction, nor to misuse any of my accounts either before that time or since. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
* '''Oppose (very conditionally)''' : I am quite willing to ''develop'' and largely adopt such rules, within the next month or so, but would much prefer to make some important distinctions which are not evident in this document as it exists in its current state, despite having been gradually evolving or decaying in various stages, for many years, on a far more populated site, since its inception in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry&oldid=2446707 14 February 2004]‎, where it provided little more than a definition and the statement:
:: ''Some folks believe sock puppets suck. Others believe that they are useful, when used for good.''
: I believe there are issues to be raised more explicitly now. There are ALSO significant FACTS related to my own past use of multiple accounts and the reactions of others to them that I wish to be honestly and fairly addressed, and measures taken to rectify the current situation where I believe quite improperly and unjustly, the accounts I was gradually identifying as my own were suddenly defaced with VERY misleading statements which imply that these were merely Sockpuppets and that I had clearly been guilty of improper behavior with them, which I have always asserted was NEVER the case, and certainly never my intentions.
: Though I actually seem to be entering another week or so where I am likely to be more busy than I had thought elsewhere, within the next week or two I would actually like to ''begin'' to present upon my own user pages an accounting of ''some'' of the more significant reasons I created such accounts in the first place — and why I generally object to the pre-emptive suppression of such anonymity as they can afford, and why I object slightly to some of the wording in the current Wikipedia document, though not its general intent. I expect to be very busy on this matter and others in coming week or two, but to all, I send ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: This proposition is not ''ex post facto''; it has nothing to do with your previous accounts, other than your own assertion that Wikiquote has had no policy barring the use of multiple accounts. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: One of the things I would like to address is that the defacement of my multiple account pages as "Sock puppets" was undertaken not merely ''ex post facto'' but without clear community consensus to label them such, largely by one very hostile and very presumptive admin, who on the same page he links to only a portion of, was being declared by others to have acted improperly and in such ways as were clearly against policies. If we are going to adopt a policy regarding multiple accounts, I would like the long-standing injustice of that addressed as well, so that these accounts can be labelled in less presumptive and what I believe to be quite dishonest ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Our adoption of a forward-looking policy should not be contingent on addressing past events not occurring under that policy. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I certainly agree with that, but while discussions are occurring on such matters, I believe it would be proper to take assessments of past incidents, and such facts and opinions as I intend to present, in settling upon any new policies, and the adoption should not be rushed, merely for the convenience of some who might wish to rush such matters, and forego discussions or debates in such ways as I believe would be detrimental in many ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Adopting Wikipedia's policy as it stands could be problematic because it makes reference to entities and procedures for which Wikiquote does not have any local counterpart, e.g. Arbitration Committee and checkuser. Our [[Wikiquote:Username policy#Using multiple user accounts|current policy]] simply says ''"It is recommended that users not edit under multiple usernames, unless they have a very good reason."'' Something more definitive than this would be a good idea, and the Wikipedia policy could be a good starting point. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
*: I have imported the Wikipedia page to [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] and tagged it as an essay for now. We can whittle it down and otherwise adjust it to our local needs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Thanks for that — as I indicated, I am willing to support a slightly revised version of this eventually — but I would expect it to take at least a couple of weeks to establish a viable agreement. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: Of that, I have no doubt. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== WelcomeBot ==

This bot has been beating me with a stick as soon as I looked over this bot's contribution list. WelcomeBot's last edit [[Special:Contributions/WelcomeBot|was in 2008.]] Now, it has been six years (correct me if I am wrong) since this bot has contributed. On other wikis, the bureaucrats would revoke the bot's right due to inactivity. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AWelcomeBot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 See User Rights Log]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Voltairinedecleyre.png]] ==

Since [[:File:VoltairinedeCleyre.jpg]] exists - and is a completely different image - I renamed this. I've also done a restoration. However, a number of the usages here are on protected pages, so can someone replace the usage at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/November 17]] with either:
[[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35) - Original.png]] (unrestored version) or [[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35).jpg]] (restored version)? [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
: The page probably should not have been protected. This is [[w:WP:CASCADE|cascading protection]] from the page [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Display]], which was created in an abortive attempt to [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote_talk:Quote_of_the_day&oldid=1200367 reorganize QotD pages]. As the reorganization appears to have been abandoned and its index does not appear to be used anywhere, I wonder if the page creator, [[User:Cirt|Cirt]], would be amenable to deleting it and the associated [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Links]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I never understood precisely what Cirt was trying to do with these back then, in 2009, but they were entirely his effort, without much regard or consideration of the long standing and enduring QOTD selection, processing and archiving procedures, and all those index pages currently in a format that improperly generalizes them with titles such as "[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1]]" were moved into these titles then, and I believe simply should be moved back to the standard [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1, 2009]] title format for them. I don't understand exactly what is causing the protection problems at this point, having ignored the issue for some time, as one of relatively little significance, but agree the protections should be removed, and the pages restored to their original more standard titles. I just happen to be checking in now, don't have much time, and must be leaving again soon. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Reply:''' I've unprotected both those pages. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== Fair use audio/video clips ==

Hello,

Forgive my naive curiosity, but I wonder why Wikiquote pages never propose audio or video clips for famous quotes in movies, songs or speeches for instance. Since audio clips can be used as "fair use" on Wikipedia (see for instance on [[w:We Are the World #Music and vocal arrangements|"We Are the World"]]), is there anything that prevents Wikiquote contributors to put, say, short audio clips of [[Martin Luther King, Jr. #I Have A Dream (1963)|"I Have A Dream"]]'s finest quotes? or even a video clip of [[Gone with the Wind (film)|''Gone with the Wind'']]'s "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."?

Wouldn't that be "fair use"? wouldn't that be any useful to Wikiquote pages? I mean, lots of quotes from speeches or movies would benefit a lot from a presentation with their voice intonation, or visual context, no?

Thanks for any views on the subject! - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Such media clips can be linked to within pages, if they are available at the commons under an acceptable license, but, of course, simply "fair use" materials are not. Years ago, to avoid duplications, excess, and complicated burdens on a limited staff of regular admins, it was decided at the English Wikiquote to use only media available at the commons. Though it might sometimes be frustrating, I still believe that is probably a good thing, over all, as there are often contentions on even using images available at the commons, as some of the above sections can indicate. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:
::OK, so the English Wikiquote is not opposed to fair use in itself (since, as I understood it on [[Wikiquote:Copyrights]], it is under that very fair use that quotations are put here), but chose to avoid the complexity to manage fair use media files. That answers my primary question, thanks!
::Now, theoretically speaking, would it be feasible? Would it be legal to use excerpts of copyrighted audio or video content, just to display them as quotations from a published work? And if yes, would it be any different if Wikiquote was a for-profit project?
::I'm trying to get a better view of how media excerpts can legally be viewed as "quotations"... (for instance, is there a difference between selling a dictionary of (text) quotations, which seems feasible, and selling a compendium of media quotations?)
::[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 19:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am not familiar with all the technical details of how and why fair use has been defined or limited in various ways, in various contexts, and I am sure that this is a very complex legal matter, to which I make no pretense of having definite or authoritative answers. Good luck in seeking help on this one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::No one here is giving legal advice. I actually think we ''could'' use audio/video clips that are in the public domain, but as to copyrighted material, "fair use" for educational purposes is usually something like (no more than) 5 seconds of a five minute video. (On some pages there are links to Youtube clips, that's much safer, and may work as a solution – though even there caution is required, linking to "illegal" material is of course not permissible.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::I wasn't trying to get legal advice (or any authoritative answer at all), I know [[w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer]] and the like quite well, sorry if that's the impression I gave you. I was simply curious about understanding how this (using media clips under "fair use") applies to Wikiquote, or in general, and I thought that maybe there were contributors here who would have previously dealt with the issue. And that curiosity was only triggered by the fact that, as a reader of Wikiquote, I thought audio/video clips on the pages would have been great, and then I wondered, "wait, maybe it's not possible?". [[File:Face-smile.svg|18px]]
:::::Thank you anyway for your answers. - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 18:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Six pictures for Quote of the day ?!? ==

Does the ''Quote of the day'' really need to have six (6) pictures in it?!?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:It is of course quite possible to indicate ''much'' of how snide and hypocritical a person can be in only 15 words or even fewer, but complexity and intricate sincerity of thought often demands much more than that, and in defense of liberties and generally healthy good humor, I am usually quite prone to provide what I can, when I can, in the hopes that some who are plainly ignorant, confused and intolerant towards the actual or potential capacities of others might eventually become knowledgeable and wise enough to develop a genuine and profound love for the principles of Liberty, rather than merely the sounding of such words as can indicate it among those who are not prone to be insincere and hypocritical. I also hope that those who are often intimidated or merely irritated by the intolerant can learn to laugh at them, even if it must be sardonic laughter, rather than being angry at them, and sometimes thus even slipping into their ranks, and becoming unjustly intolerant of those so ignorant and confused as to be unjustly intolerant, rather than simply and properly and justly intolerant of unjust intolerance itself.

:'''Actually the quote of the day for today has 611 pictures known as "letters" and "punctuation marks" within it. These are arranged in sequences representing 120 vocalizations commonly known as "words" which form phrases and statements of thought.''' Unfortunately many of these are often used by some people with very little actually [[sincerity]], or any profound understanding of principles or concepts, such as those who might regularly use words of praise for [[Freedom of speech]], while often doing so much as they can to effectively constrain and control such speech or indications of ideas as others can make, in extremely intolerant [[absolutist]] ways, which are often dependent upon mechanistic, [[wikt:legalistic|legalistic]] formulas which are often touted as "sensible" or even "necessary" by the unimaginative, to the unimaginative, for the unimaginative. It is often a very easy thing to get the unimaginative to agree that the imaginative should be constrained and controlled by those most eager to constrain and control them. Some might go so far as to stress that MANY of these symbols are actually "redundant" and repetitive — there are only 26 letters, and once of each of these should be enough to indicate all that these images should be construed to indicate — and combing them in various ways lead to such "distractions" as people call "ideas", which are nearly always a threat to powers and prestige of the most vacuous.

:Using my own admittedly limited imaginative capacities to discern that you were probably attempting to criticize the fact that 6 complex images generally referred to as pictures frame the 611-symbol quote of the day, I will address the rhetorical inquiry regarding their necessity. '''Of course, thought itself is perhaps not actually "necessary" thing among many human beings, as many people often make abundantly clear by their regular impulses towards impositions of relatively thoughtless constraints and condemnation of others abilities to indicate or express many forms of thought and thoughtfulness.

:In this particular case, six images were selected to indicate some aspects of the ideas indicated through the QOTD words, or provide images of the person who is being quoted. It certainly could have used more to illustrate its expansive call to praise of humanistic appreciation of life and all that human beings can experience or observe, and a rejection of those primarily dark, ignorant and confused impulses towards denigrative and destructive and even suicidal or murderous attitudes and actions which many of the most ignorant and confused of people often favor or promote.

{|
|&emsp;||
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:Sunrise in Midtown, New York City - January 16, 2013.jpg|222px]] [[File:Zegar słoneczny plac defilad wskazanie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | {{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Arco iris circular.JPG|144px]] Do you have [[doubts]] about [[life]]? Are you unsure if it is really [[worth]] the [[trouble]]? Look at the [[sky]]: that is for you. Look at each [[person]]'s [[face]] as you pass them on the street: those faces are for you. And the street itself, and the ground under the street, and the ball of [[fire]] underneath the ground: [[all]] these things are for you. They are as much for you as they are for other [[people]]. [[Remember]] this when you wake up in the [[morning]] and think you have [[nothing]]. Stand up and face the east. Now [[praise]] the sky and praise the [[light]] within each person under the sky. It's okay to be unsure. But praise, praise, praise.
| author = Miranda July
}} [[File:Double-alaskan-rainbow.jpg|144px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Salutations to the Ganges at sunrise, Varanasi.jpg|201px]] [[File:Miju.jpg|201px]]
|}
|}
:With an emphasis on the worthiness of [[Life]] itself, especially to the extent it promotes [[Liberty]] and [[Justice]] in all vitally important human endeavors, and to further testify of the usefulness of thought, imagination, and images in the use of words and quotes, I will quote a few more extremely worthy statements of worthy principles by worthy minds.

:To quote the current Wikipedia and Wikiquote introduction: [[Censorship]] is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

:Wikis were admirably devised to MINIMIZE the presence of the overly constrained and controlling impulses of groups and individuals most prone to rely upon static and dull understandings and misunderstandings of rules and regulations, and to permit those with most extensive and expansive ideas to have much more opportunity for indicating them and developing them without needless hindrance. Wikis of many types persist in doing so, despite many forms of constraining and corruptive influences, and I trust that they will continue to do so, despite occasional afflictions of short-sightedness, and tendencies towards pre-emptive censorship or limitations on the presentations of ideas.

:* '''The first condition of [[progress]] is the removal of censorship.'''
:** [[George Bernard Shaw]], in his Preface to [[w:Mrs. Warren's Profession|Mrs. Warren's Profession]]''

:* '''Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself.''' It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote our First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from the interference of a policeman's intrusive thumb or a judge's heavy hand.
:** [[Potter Stewart]], in his dissenting opinion in ''Ginzburg et al v. United States'' (1965)

:* Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.
:** [[Ray Bradbury]], in ''Fahrenheit 451'', Coda (1979 edition)

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG|144px]] Our [[liberty]] depends on the [[freedom of the press]], and that cannot be limited without being lost.
| author = Thomas Jefferson
}}
|}

:As I know that not all are inclined to persist in their inclinations to defend liberties where it is obvious there are some groups of people prone to cohere in their opposition to them, those few who do cohere for liberty can sometimes render humanity a valuable service, and I hope that in the times to come, what efforts I have made to help people become more aware and appreciative of the principles of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Joyous Universal Love of ALL will be of great benefit to many, even if many of the ways I have done so remain obscured and unnoticed by most. '''''[[Blessings]]''' to all.'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 06:55, 15 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:I know some indications of the complexities of my own particular thoughts and ideas, and those of others, in promotion of liberty and praise for it and for the presentations of ideas in general can seem "verbose" — but that is one of the burdens of having a relatively complex mind and the will to keep it complexly alert and active. Something which many of the wise throughout the ages have advised, in various ways. I add this little note to provide just a few more refinements of thought and a further quote that addresses one of the tragedies of current times:

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = In a three-minute stretch between [[commercials]], or in seven hundred [[words]], it is [[impossible]] to present unfamiliar [[thoughts]] or surprising conclusions with the [[argument]] and [[evidence]] required to afford them [[credibility]]. Regurgitation of welcome [[pieties]] faces no such [[problem]].
| author = Noam Chomsky
}}
|}

:''So it goes…'' and so much as they ever can … may ''Blessings'' abound. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 07:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:: I like this QOTD layout. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Which? There are two examples of illustrated quotations above (Miranda July and Thomas Jefferson). I prefer the second layout for use on the main page because it doesn't make the QotD box 7–8 times larger (depending on window size) than the QotD itself and push everything else "[[w:below the fold|below the fold]]". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to the QOTD (Miranda July), not the Jefferson quote. [I don't think Kalki posted the latter with the intent of it being a QOTD layout proposal.] There have certainly been some QOTDs that I found too extravagant, or with too many mystical (large) pictures, but in this QOTD the pictures seem comparatively well chosen and pleasant. However, more generally, I agree that the QOTD should preferably have fewer & smaller pictures (otherwise, it gives readers the wrong impression, this wiki is not really about the pictures), and occupy less space, so that for example the suggested articles in the main page could gain more immediate visibility. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

: It does not. But the person who runs this site thinks otherwise, and also equates "criticism of layout decisions" with "censorship." There is nothing anyone can do about it, except avoid the main page entirely. That's easy enough to do with Google, and I would recommend it as a way around the egregious front page. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:: "It does not" seems a rather incoherent statement, along with others less obviously so. ''' No one "runs" this site, and despite the regular efforts of a few people to absolutely constrain and control what ''others'' can do, in ways that defy and betray the very principles of promoting extremely diverse and minimally regulated contributions with which most wikis were founded, it remains, on the whole, only incidentally and probably not permanently corrupted by such efforts.''' And despite the often infantile reactions of people in responding to criticism, I certainly do NOT stupidly assert that criticism of layout decisions amounts to "censorship" — I assert that calls for extreme constraint or ELIMINATION of layout decisions by those most involved in the actual work and consideration of options, by a few people who seem most interested in constraining or eliminating MANY options IS censorship. Such constraints as would ''de facto'' constrain others to the sensibilities or desires of a relatively small group of people who seem very inclined to be critical and intolerant of others ideas, and often quite extremely intolerant and punitive towards criticisms of themselves and their ideas. And indeed if such people find the layouts which others have acclaimed so intolerable, they are more than welcome to do as they will and avoid looking at them at all, and avoid considering any ideas or presentations save those they find most comfortable and consoling to their ''precious'' little minds and forms of mindfulness. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I realized afterwards that your lead statement "It does not" probably refers to the leading question presented by the creator of this section, which pretty much ignores all the extensive material added afterward. If one can overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent, and mattered not at all, congratulations of a sort: I have little doubt that you will be able to succeed in keeping your mind "pure and undefiled" by any "alien" ideas such as I or others might introduce. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
::::(I wonder whether you'll be able to post such pictures again in discussions once [[mw:Flow|Flow]] is enacted.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Kalki, it is possible to read what you write and still disagree with you. I did not ignore "all the extensive material added afterward," nor did I "overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent." I read it, which should have been obvious by the fact that I referenced it. I just disagree with you. The QotD does not need 6 images. Your arguments are not persuasive - particularly the one comparing letters to pictures. The fact that you believe your making an argument means that argument is correct is one of the problems here. I am not promoting censorship of ideas. I don't believe the unimaginative are trying to constrain or control anyone. I believe 6 images makes the QotD section too busy, and distracts from the purpose of this site, which is to provide quotes. That's my opinion. But I'm aware that no amount of argument against what you want will change your actions, or your opinion of those who disagree with you as closed-minded troglodytes. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 15:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it might be simplest to get rid of the quotation altogether, and simply post "Mystical pictures of the day"? At present, the quotation tends to get lost amidst all the galactic objects, lights in the forest, rainbows, shadows extending into the distance, hands reaching for the sky, etc., etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 17:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I fear Kalki's method might actually have the opposite effect of what he is trying to accomplish. In the first place, I am not sure whether these large pictures do a good job in attracting more people's attention to the quote, or if on the contrary people get bored with always seeing the same pattern and flashy colors—which could lead them to not read the quotes of the day, and start avoiding the main page. Now, to be fair, Kalki often tries to choose appropriate, and different, pictures for QOTD. But Macspaunday's parody of Kalki's preference for mystical imagery might actually point to a poverty of thought that is much contrary to Kalki's sincere intention of introducing people to new thoughts and ideas. At least speaking for myself, when I read a quote for the first time, I prefer to be free to imagine (and produce my own imagery of) what the quote represents, to me, on my own. Kalki might wish to present his interpretation of the quote to others, but this (unintentionally?) interferes and breaks ''in advance'' my own interpretation. It's like being forced to watch a movie adaptation (good or bad) before reading a book. I don't know how that's compatibly with the principles of Freedom Kalki defends. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On the subject of what attracts people. Taking a quick look at our "rival" sites, apparently ''[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes goodreads]'' doesn't have nor use subjective pictures at all, and they seem to attract more people than Wikiquote (the same is true for ''brainyquote'', which in fact doesn't present any pictures). Of course these sites are not good in many aspects (e.g., sourcing of quotes), but perhaps ''goodreads''' policy to only present a small picture of the author next to the quote is something we could adopt. I'm almost sure that if they started adding large colorful shining pictures next to quotes, their viewership would decline. Perhaps giving a more professional look to our main page would help attract (and keep) more visitors. I recently made two simple suggestions for the QOTD, [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/January 28, 2014|here]] and [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 20, 2014|here]], don't know if they would be better. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. Obviously the QOTD alone is not even remotely responsible for overall less viewership, Wikiquote has many other—much more serious—problems, in content, navigation, etc. (and I repeat that I think Kalki has done more for the betterment of WQ than any other editor, my comments here are not meant to blame him, just offer constructive criticism. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Indeed. I appreciate Kalki's desire to make an artistic presentation, but would advise him to consider the artistry of [[w:Minimalism|Minimalism]]. Hmmm, now I see that we have no page on [[Minimalism]]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: (We do now.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: DanielTom has offered some excellent and indisputable wisdom here. He's absolutely right that Goodreads et al. go wrong in ways that WQ goes right: WQ has sourced quotations, warnings about false and doubtful attributions, etc. - and WQ gets hundreds of things right that Goodreads et al. conspicuously get wrong. But Goodreads et al. ''look'' vastly more authoritative than WQ because they don't illustrate hundreds of different quotations with Hoag's Object, heart-shaped stones held in the hand, etc., etc. They ''look'' authoritative in ways that WQ, sadly, does not. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:08, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Why do those websites attract more traffic than WQ? This is a topic that needs research, but I believe the main reason is that they present the best quotes right at the top of their pages. ''goodreads'', for example, has a voting system whereby the most liked quotes appear at the top. This is much different from WQ, where the readers often have to read through a sea of quotes just to find an occasional gem. (And this is particularly true in long theme pages, such as "[[Love]]".) The only way we can solve this in our current system is, believe it or not, through the use of pictures, to highlight the best quotes. (I suspect many of our readers only read through long pages by simply looking at picture captions.) So, at least to my mind, pictures can actually be the solution, not the problem. However, to be sure, I also share concerns about pictures in excess, irrelevant to the text, or too subjective that they apply and appear everywhere. In addition, although I might for example worship every single word Shakespeare wrote, placing a picture for every one of his quotes would not attract more people's attention to them, it might very well just do the opposite. This seems to be what is happening in articles that are flooded with walls of pictures. So pictures can become the problem when they are too many, and so go ''counter'' to their function of ''highlighting key quotes''. I think this is something everyone can recognize. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Leaving aside the consideration of typographic glyphs as images, leaving aside the question of whether Kalki speaks for the "[[w:silent majority|silent majority]]" (or is, in some sense, a multitude incarnate), leaving aside the small mindedness of mere mortals overwhelmed by the grandeur of Kalki's idealism; Kalki actually does offer a reason to support using a multiplicity of images. To wit:  ''to have much more opportunity for indicating extensive and expansive ideas''. Chomsky's quoted remark about the limitations of short-form exposition is certainly correct: some ideas require a longer form for their successful exposition. Toward that end, using the very rough approximation that a picture is worth a thousand words, one might seek an opportunity to indicate extensive and expansive ideas with an essay of six thousand words. However, bearing in mind that ''the art of quotation is generally characterized by [[brevity]]'', it would be incongruous to seek such opportunities in the pages of Wikiquote. Kalki's defense of the photomontage as a form of expression begs the question of whether the exposition of extensive and expansive ideas belongs on the main page. I think that it does not. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: Another way of thinking about Ningauble's point is this: Imagine that the quotation of the day is typically surrounded by six quotations from the Bible or Shakespeare - and that many of them had also been used to surround completely different quotations on previous days. That would certainly be a long-form exposition, but would it be appropriate to the front page, and would it show respect to the authors of the quotations? I'd imagine that many of the authors would think they were being less than respectfully represented by a page that surrounds a sentence or two that they wrote with thousands of words from the Bible or Shakespeare. I'd imagine they would think the same way about seeing their quotations surrounded by pictures of clouds, rainbows, galactic spirals, prisms, sculpted hearts, nineteenth-century genre paintings, etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Amidst many activities with concerns elsewhere, I have now examined the above comments, and will probably do so again, before posting some responses to some recent statements and actions. I am considering many options of what sorts of rebuttals to make, as I again leave for elsewhere, for there are plainly many complexities to consider in the assertions and attitudes of those who seek to impose what they perceive as admirable "simplicity" on the options of ''others'' in quite complicated ways, for quite complicated and varied reasons. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why bother? From your attitude in that very comment we can be pretty confident what your response will be. We cannot discuss what the community deems appropriate on this site as long as it might have some impact on you having your way. It's not very complicated at all. You will do what you want, and any discussion to the contrary is us (no matter how great a majority we are) trying to "impose" something on you. The discussion will go nowhere as long as you continue to ignore that somebody's opinions aside from yours might have merit. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am always willing to acknowledge merit, where it can be found, and to actually bother about a lot of things others do not, where vitally important forms of truth are at stake; and you are actually right to some very limited extent, though demonstrably wrong in others, for you can rely upon my responses being quite contrary to those which promote various forms of suppression of various forms of intelligent exposition by various forms of arrogant misuse of force.
::: '''[[Ironies]] and profound forms of [[stupidity]] about them certainly abound in this world, in ways I will actually decline to always specify, out of consideration of the plainly delicate and fragile sensibilities of some, and the need to discreetly retain some forms of [[knowledge]] to be revealed in more effective ways than those of presently declaring them openly to some of the most plainly ignorant, intolerant and insensitive people presently active here.''' I will actually specify that many of the most belligerently intolerant and oppressive of people are often desperate to find ways to convince others of the certainty of their numerical or absolute moral superiority, and genuinely believe such things themselves. '''I am certainly NOT quite so full of shallow and stupid certitude about many things as you certainly are trying to make me seem, in ways I will concede I perceive to be quite shallow and obvious.'''
::: I must say that for someone who had as yet only started a topic of derision of my work, and had made only 3 edits, all specifically in derision of me, who has contributed over 100,000, armed with all the authority of "collective identity" with a few others of the most intolerant here which those 3 edits provided you, declared in rather comically imperious tones of ''command'' as a member of "the collective", of those most avid to control OTHERS: "You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others."
::: I am not actually intimidated very much at all by such remarkably clear examples of the presumptive arrogance of the most intolerant and eagerly oppressive of people; '''I actually expect many of them to eventually provide prominent and long remembered examples to many students and researches of psychological and sociological processes, of significant aberrations in the social processes, towards subtle and overt forms of anti-social oppression and suppression of dissent.'''
::: Actually from the moment I first read those words, I honestly perceived you might be engaged in one of the most remarkably arrogant, petty and presumptuous forms of pretension and deceitfulness or delusions which I had yet encountered on this wiki, and I actually strongly suspect that you could very likely be one of the sporadic trolls who primarily aim to disrupt the normal processes of wikis and their development. '''Of course I am quite willing to concede that I could be entirely wrong''', and you are not actually such a paltry twerp, and even without much actual evidence in support of such an assessment, could conceivably even be a generally mild and benevolent researcher in various social sciences, including those of how people respond in positive and negative ways to various forms of generally positive and intelligent presentations of various ideas or indications of the beauty of the world, and in this case you are assuming the guise of an intolerant belligerent twerp or troll to provide an example for all eternity of how easily swayed to paths of oppressive stupidity some people can be, much like those in the psychology experiments of [[Solomon Asch]], [[Stanley Milgram]], and [[Philip Zimbardo]]. '''IF that were the actually the case here I would actually have to assert that I consider it an extremely unethical and misguided practice and strongly disagree with the adoption of such vile guises by anyone, even in pretenses, for ostensibly worthy psychological research and investigations, and forms of direct action in social involvement.'''
::: Though not quite as pessimistic as he sometimes was, I have long agreed to a great extent with many of the observations of the intelligent [[Heroically]] [[Angelic]] [[Humanist]] [[Absurdist]], [[Kurt Vonnegut]] including that in ''Mother Night'': '''We are what we [[pretend]] to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'''
::: As I have remained busier than I had anticipated I would be in various complex concerns, and it actually looks like I will continue to be for a while yet, I am willing to patiently consider many options and aspects of many situations, before I respond more vigorously here, to what I believe to be many rather ironically stupid developments in the audacity of those who would suppress and censor the indication of thoughts and ideas.
::: As I have to get busy doing other things now, I will simply close with a profound quote by one of many profound philosophers who I have long admired:
{{quote of the day
| quote = ''Every [[morning]] I shall concern myself anew about the boundary Between the [[love]]-[[deed]]-'''Yes''' and the [[power]]-deed-'''No''' And pressing forward [[honor]] [[reality]]. We cannot avoid Using power, Cannot escape the compulsion To afflict the [[world]], '''So let us, cautious in diction And mighty in contradiction, Love powerfully.'''''
| author = Martin Buber
}}
::: ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::::Name-calling and cries of censorship, while hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority. Who could have seen that coming?
::::I'll admit that my attempt to improve the wiki in this particular way has been lost, although I'd encourage others to continue the battle. And especially, if you are reading this and agree, I would encourage you to register and to speak up. Even if your contribution will be dismissed (publicly, anyway - privately I have received kudos), if you desire the improvement of this project you should contribute in any way you see necessary, including this one. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 22:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: You are plainly mistaken if you think I am "hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority." I am a rather [[anarchistic]] [[Absurdist]] and though I might accept that in some ways there could be such absolutes, I reject notions that any mortal mind has the capacity or comprehension to absolutely determine or formulate such with absolutely reliable accuracy. To each their own pieces of the puzzles... ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== Universal Language Selector will be enabled by default again on this wiki by 21 February 2014 ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
On January 21 2014 the MediaWiki extension [[mw:Universal Language Selector|Universal Language Selector]] (ULS) was [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Jan2014|disabled]] on this wiki. A new preference was added for logged-in users to turn on ULS. This was done to prevent slow loading of pages due to ULS webfonts, a behaviour that had been observed by the Wikimedia Technical Operations team on some wikis.

We are now ready to enable ULS again. The temporary preference to enable ULS will be removed. A [[commons:File:ULS-font-checkbox.png|new checkbox]] has been added to the Language Panel to enable/disable font delivery. This will be unchecked by default for this wiki, but can be selected at any time by the users to enable webfonts. This is an interim solution while we improve the feature of webfonts delivery.

You can read the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Feb2014|announcement]] and the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Upcoming Development Plan|development plan]] for more information. Apologies for writing this message only in English. Thank you. [[m:User_talk:Runab WMF|Runa]]

</div>


: No apology is needed. Visitors here are not required to master the subtle art of translating from English to Quotish. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Heh. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Amendment to the Terms of Use ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Hello all,

Please join a discussion about a [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|proposed amendment]] to the [[wmf:Terms of Use|Wikimedia Terms of Use]] regarding undisclosed paid editing and we encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please translate this statement if you can, and we welcome you to translate the proposed amendment and introduction. Please see [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|the discussion on Meta Wiki]] for more information. Thank you! [[:m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 22:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Einstein was a Humanist? ==

I've tried to edit this but another editor has reverted it, so I'd appreciate some more opinions. IMHO it's thoroughly misleading to describe Einstein as a Humanist: a) he never self-identified as a Humanist; b) in Einstein's day the Humanist movement did not exist in the form that it does today (i.e. that of a 'secular religion'), so the term applied to Einstein is meaningless; c) his stated beliefs are not in accord with those of Humanism. [[User:HPotato|HPotato]] ([[User talk:HPotato|talk]]) 10:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
: '''OMFG.''' Omnipresent [[Mystical]] Fair [[Goodness]] ever abides, even amidst all the petty, pretentious and delusive perspectives and outright lies that are often presented AS IF they were fact, or supreme facts, when to anyone with sufficient [[knowledge]] and [[reason]] they clearly are NOT. It is entirely accurate to state Einstein was a [[Humanist]], as the contentions on '''[[Talk:Albert_Einstein#.27Scientist_and_humanist.27|that talk page]]''' by various editors make abundantly clear. I myself have been acutely aware of much of his involvement in endeavors of [[Humanism]] since I was just a toddler, and probably become aware of his support of the [[w:Ethical movement|Ethical Culture Society]] when I was 5 or 6 years old, and this was part of one of the founding alliances of the wider [[w:International Humanist and Ethical Union |International Humanist and Ethical Union]]. And as another editor pointed out: "'''Einstein served on the advisory board of the [[w:First Humanist Society of New York|First Humanist Society of New York]]. His name appears in Wikipedia's [[w:List of humanists|List of humanists]].'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: The problem is that words change meanings. Einstein was undoubtedly a humanist in the classical meaning of the word. However, nowadays it is virtually synonymous with atheist, which Einstein was not. It could be argues, therefore, that to call him a humanist is misleading.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The word still, in this day, also very much means what it used to mean. What is potentially confusing is that some atheists are also humanists and some humanists are also atheists. What is ''misleading'' is the polemics of certain oppositional groups, such as an insistence in the [[w:New Atheism|New Atheism]] that a "good" humanist must be [[w: Antitheism|''anti''-theist]], and the insistence of [[w:Christian right|right-wing political factions]] that all humanists are Godless heathens. "Humanist" and "atheist" are not synonyms: many atheists are not humanists, and many humanists are not atheists. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: '''Thanks for making that point.''' I had written several paragraphs yesterday elaborating on that and related points, but decided to take time to reflect and temper my observations before posting anything here. As it stands I have decided to drop all but the first paragraph, and might bring up other things elsewhere on my own talk pages in coming weeks. Here is part of the first paragraph of what I stated on seeing this yesterday:
::::: '''Of course words change meanings, with time, in human society — as a person familiar with [[history]] I recognize that. As a person familiar with many aspects of the [[sciences]] and [[disciplines]] of [[psychology]] and [[semiotics]] I also recognize they ALWAYS have various nuances and shades of meanings that can and MUST differ between human individuals, ALL of the time.''' KNOWING this I consider it extremely inconsiderate and profoundly wrongful to seek to constrain definitions of words to such uses as are PLAINLY and profoundly WRONG, easily misleading, and ''needlessly'' confusing upon vastly different ranges of issues. I believe that such IS the case in ACCEPTING "Humanism" as a near-synonym for "Atheism" as I assert many ignorant, confused, asinine, arrogant and rationally and ethically incompetent theists AND atheists are prone to do, in order to promote many aspects of their own particular ranges of agenda.
:::: And with that I get back to work on the adding of material to the project, before having to leave again soon. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

== Call for project ideas: funding is available for community experiments ==

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[[File:IEG_key_blue.png|100px|right]]

''I apologize if this message is not in your language. Please help translate it.''

Do you have an idea for a project that could improve your community? [[m:Grants:IEG|Individual Engagement Grants]] from the Wikimedia Foundation help support individuals and small teams to organize experiments for 6 months. You can get funding to try out your idea for online community organizing, outreach, tool-building, or research to help make {{SITENAME}} better. In March, we’re looking for new project proposals.

Examples of past Individual Engagement Grant projects:
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Build_an_effective_method_of_publicity_in_PRChina|Organizing social media for Chinese Wikipedia]] ($350 for materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Visual_editor-_gadgets_compatibility|Improving gadgets for Visual Editor]] ($4500 for developers)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library|Coordinating access to reliable sources for Wikipedians]] ($7500 for project management, consultants and materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision|Building community and strategy for Wikisource]] (€10000 for organizing and travel)

'''[[m:Grants:IEG#ieg-applying|Proposals]] are due by 31 March 2014.''' There are a number of ways to [[m:Grants:IEG|get involved]]!

Hope to have your participation,

--[[m:User:Sbouterse (WMF)|Siko Bouterse, Head of Individual
Engagement Grants, Wikimedia Foundation]] 19:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

</div>


== Buddy Holly Wikiquotes. ==

The Photo you have on that page is not Buddy Holly but a Holly impersonator.
{{unsigned|164.165.145.21}}
: I have lowered the prominence of the disputed image, which I agree is dubious, and added some that are clearly of [[Buddy Holly]] to the page. I might add a few more later. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Language links (interwiki) via Wikidata are coming ==

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[[File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg|150px|right]]
Hey everyone :)

I just wanted to let you know that Wikiquote will be the next sister project to be supported by Wikidata. Initially you will be able to maintain the links between the language editions of Wikiquote on Wikidata. This means you will no longer have to maintain them in the wiki text of each article. (However you will still be able to if you want to and local links will overwrite the ones from Wikidata in that case.) We plan to enable this on April 8th for you. At a later point (depending on how this initial roll-out goes) you will also get access to the other data on Wikidata like the date of birth of a scientist for example.

If you have any questions please come to [[d:Wikidata:Wikiquote]] where we'll try to answer all of them. If you're already familiar with Wikidata and want to act as an ambassador please add your name to the list there to help people find you.

I'm looking forward to welcoming you all to Wikidata.

Cheers
[[:d:User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher]] 21:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Bot ==

I have requested Bot permissions at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== What is up with the game-cleanup template? ==

Not sure what the heck is going on, but the page for [[Grim Fandango]] lists a whole bunch of… buses? I think?

Anyway, I traced the problem back to the [[Template:Game-cleanup|game-cleanup template]], but that page isn't editable so I'm not really sure what to do. – Guido del Confuso, 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Well, I just checked and it's fixed now, so never mind, I guess. Unless someone saw this and fixed it, in which case, thanks! — [[User:Guido del Confuso|Guido del Confuso]] ([[User talk:Guido del Confuso|talk]]) 06:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:: It was a simple case of vandalism, which has been reverted. I have protected the underlying "highly visible template". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Indefinitely blocked IP addresses ==

Hi, this proposal is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
# The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at [[Special:BlockList]].
# Amending [[Wikiquote:Blocking policy#Anonymous and open proxies]] to discourage future indefinite blocks, with proposed language changes like adding "Administrators are strongly discouraged/prohibited/advised against indefinitely blocking IP addresses".

As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
# IP addresses should generally never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
# ''In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, such as for open proxies, the '''Meta Stewards have already implemented a near-indefinite global block for it'''.''

Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 05:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I agree that, because IP address assignments tend to be volatile, they ought not be indefinitely blocked except in special cases such as open proxies or very long term abuse. Some of our administrators do occasionally indef-block an address, and other administrators occasionally, but very infrequently, go back and expire them. It has been a couple years since anyone scrubbed the [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=userblocks&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=tempblocks list of indef-blocked IPs] and, as it happens, I recently put it on my to-do list to review them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Quote popularity ==

Is there any way to rank the quotes by popularity, and/or how "well-known" they are? Or at least to sort them into buckets from "very popular" to "very unpopular"? I haven't been able to find it by searching around, but perhaps some method could be programmed.

== Proposed optional changes to Terms of Use amendment ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">Hello all, in response to some community comments in the discussion on the amendment to the Terms of Use on undisclosed paid editing, we have prepared two optional changes. Please [[m:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Optional_changes|read about these optional changes on Meta wiki]] and share your comments. If you can (and this is a non english project), please translate this announcement. Thanks! [[m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 21:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC) </div>


== Formatting sources ==

What's standard procedure on the layout for sourcing quotations on Wikiquote? Currently, [[Wikiquote:Manual of Style]], [[Wikiquote:Sourcing]] and [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]] (still a mess unadapted to Wikiquote since import) doesn't seem to provide a lot of guidance to current practices here. I'm bringing this up because I noticed when I provided the source for a number on quotations on [[Bob Keeshan]], [[User:Geezerbill|Geezerbill]] had already introduced the quote he got from my response ([[Special:Diff/1696976|diff]]) using Wikipedia's <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref> and <references/></nowiki></code> markup, which was later removed by [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] ([[Special:Diff/1696983|diff]]). And basically I was afraid of accidentally stepping into what seemed to be a small dispute over formatting refs, so I reverted myself when I noticed the previous change to the <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref></nowiki></code> layout. I know Kalki's been here longer than I or Geezerbill have been, but I'd like to know the community's opinion on this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you very much for your inquiry. It has made me realize how very much many of our help pages still need simplifying and updating, and despite the tediousness of that and my aversion to prescriptive assertions, I might actually start focusing on that problem within the next month. As to citation styles, though we have come to tolerate many that people have carried over from other types of citation, including those found in footnote and endnote stylings, '''we avoid using footnote citations in favor of interlinear citation.''' Personally, I avoid using templates and do not recommend them, and since the wiki began in 2003 the favored styles have been something along these lines, but with minor adaptations and extensions permitted:

:On Author pages, or pages for an author's works:
:* Quote text.
:** ''Name of Work'' (YYYY) or (Month YYYY) or (DD Month YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
:And on theme pages or in sections where various authors are cited:
:* Quote text.
:** First & Last Name, in ''Name of Work'' (YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
: If there are internet links used, I personally prefer to place them so that the entire title becomes a link, for both aesthetic and practical reasons, as it makes the link cleaner and clearer, but that is not any kind of mandate.

: I am sure there are other things that can be specified, or advised, but that provides a summary of some of the practices and norms which were established early on, and have endured here, despite an increasing importation of other cite styles. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

(edit conflict) @[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: The standard procedure is what you can find on pretty much all Wikiquote pages: we use interlinear, not footnote, citations. This is because WQ considers sources to be an important (and integral) part of quotations. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:Alright, thanks @[[User:Kalki|Kalki]] and @[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: I have a consideration for you though, if you will. Wiktionary uses a similar style of quotation to demonstrate that particular use of a word reflects a particular definition; see [[wikt:go#Verb]] for example, which has "quotations" dropdowns (JavaScript hack from their Common.js) that you can click on to see the full list. Do you mind if I use that as examples of sourcing? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 11:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:: There probably could be some use for such a format option here in some regards, but I would not recommend it for standard citations, which I believe should remain visible as interlinear citations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

* TeleComNasSprVen is correct about the guidelines not describing the layout conventions that have evolved here over time. Since the earliest days of the project, these were largely ignored in favor of a "learn by example" approach (and even "discover by experiment"). E.g., the use of interlinear citations is ''exemplified'' at [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout]] and [[Wikiquote:Templates]], but the practice is not ''stated or explained'' anywhere except in discussions. It is also rather tricky to give general guidance that avoids unnecessarily arbitrary specifics, as many details of presentation are subject to considerable variation. (E.g., in contrast to Kalki's preferences, I usually link just the title rather than the whole citation, and for serial publications I do not usually parenthesize the date that identifies the issue unless volume and issue numbers are also given. Neither approach is wrong.) I am not exactly volunteering to rewrite the guidelines, but I have long felt that greater clarity would be a good thing for orienting newcomers, and that it would be better if the generic {{tl|cleanup}} templates could link to specific conventions that need to be addressed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: You could try using that "dropdown" format here for sources, on one or two pages, as an experiment. I don't think it is one we should adopt, though, because, other than implying that sources are secondary, it would also prevent people from simply saving or copying the article with citations to a Word document, without first having to click on every single box to show the sources. (I guess the same problem would apply to those who'd want to print it.) And having those little boxes in front of every quote could also prove distracting (precisely the thing you want to avoid). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:In any case, I like a little bit of standardization, and templates go quite some ways toward that, so I threw together a template that might be worth trying out at [[testwiki:Template:Quotation-author]]. I'm also considering moving it to Wikiquote but I'm afraid it might be deleted for lack of consensus. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Some levels and types of standardization are quite acceptable but templates often become ways to automatically impose some which prevent exceptions and useful variations, thus I generally tend to avoid them when I can. I am not sure there are any desirable advantages to having that template here, and I perceive there might be problems with the overuse of such. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but in that case we could try stipulating on the template documentation page itself that the template is not the only way to source our quotations. What if instead of making a template "official", everyone had a way of having their quotation-sourcing style attributed to them? For example, <code><nowiki>{{User:TeleComNasSprVen/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> would be attributed to me (in the source code) and uses my style, while <code><nowiki>{{User:Kalki/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> is attributed to you and uses your style. For one-off exceptions we could always subst/delete the original transclusion and replace it with a custom-made sourcing style, and it would be relatively easy to change all existing tranclusions by modifying the master template. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Well no, I don't mean exactly in the way they use it, but in terms of the source code and JavaScript/wikitext implementation involved I was thinking of something similar to the template I created above. Try it on a few pages on the testwiki (since they're mostly garbage anyway) and see if you like it.{{unsigned|TeleComNasSprVen}}
::I fear that would be even more confusing to new editors. I think sources should be simply written in plain text, so that in the future they can be easily altered, and corrected, by different people. We already have a few templates (see, e.g., [[:Category:Citation templates]]), but I personally avoid them altogether; it's much easier for me to just write down whatever information I have of the source, without having to follow strict parameters. That's just me, though, maybe other editors see it differently. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I know you object to the use of templates in general, but as a matter of personal style preferences would you, or anyone else in this thread, object to me moving the template from testwiki over here? As I said, since it seems you disapprove of templates in general, instead of moving it to template-space and make it an "official" widely used Wikiquote template, I could relocate it to my userspace to mark it "This is my personal style and others are likely to use their own", at least in the source code. You can implement your own styles using plain wikitext or whatever, but my opinion is in favor of a template, as you can probably guess. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I don't think anyone would object to you moving this new template to your own userspace. (You can even move it to WQ's template space, as far as I'm concerned.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: On general principles I don't think it is a good idea for articles to transclude things from userspace. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe he could use "subst:"? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal: More community involvement in Quote of the Day process ==

'''Proposal:'''
#I would like to propose we the community discuss having more involvement, as a community, in the Quote of the Day process for both (1) Selecting quotes and (2) Layout of quotes and images, on the [[Main Page]].
#Selection of quotes: It appears that at present quotes are voted on at individual date pages, example [[March 20]], and then selected by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.
#Layout of quotes and images on [[Main Page]]: It appears that at present, Layout of quotes and images in the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]] is determined by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.

(Side note: [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1698258&oldid=1698219 helpfully pointed out that I am genuinely doing my best to conduct myself with a professional conduct during this debate.] I would ask others to do the same, thank you.)

'''Some of my general ideas:'''

#Selection of quotes: As long as this takes into consideration opinions of the Wikiquote community at large, and the present system seems to do that, this seems okay. Not idea, but alright. Perhaps instead of one user we the community could elect a Committee of three (3) users for the final selection of the quotes, so that an odd number could help resolve disputes if and when they arise.
#Layout of Quote of the day section: This is where I have differing opinions with the current layout formatting. I truly believe there is: (1) Too many images used, but particularly too many images used that are ''not directly related'' to the quote itself. I feel for the most part images should be of the subject of the quote, the individual himself/herself that first stated the quote. (2) I feel that there is generally too much wikilinking-of-words-within-the-quote, and that this detracts from the reading of the quote, itself.

What do others think? Would it be best to move this discussion to a subpage for further debate by the community?

I'd like to move to establish a community process for determining Layout of Quotes for the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]], that better takes into account input of the community, instead of one individual.

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:Some initial thoughts: I feel that having a more robust process for selecting the QoD is an admirable goal, but being realistic I feel that we may have problems with participation. I for one used to participate in the voting process, but found that I was often unable to find the time to do so and still manage all the other tasks I wished to do here to improve other areas. I sincerely doubt I would have the time to participate on a daily basis. I think that the legacy of having Kalki perform much of the work simply grew out of the lack of available others to help with the large effort required to keep producing them. That being said, I do not have a problem with trying something new - I just fear that (as with many other discussions or ideas) we really do not have enough active editors that might participate. I don't want to discourage new ideas, but that's my initial thought.

:As to some of your other points, I do agree that there are times when there seem to be too many images and that these tend to overshadow the quote. But I also believe that this is the exception and not the rule. I believe that in some of the recent discussion, a loose rule of approximately four images was generally deemed acceptable - and is something I would also support. I also agree that the selected images should be related to the quote, but I am not so disposed to pose strict limits such that only the author of the quote is pictured. Although on occasion I have disagreed with selected images (and if this happens, I would rather address that on a case by case basis - maybe we should require the proposed layout to be posted at least a week in advance so others can comment? - Just thinking out loud) I have not often found the images selected to be all that bad - the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy|Image use policy]] does allow for more latitude than just the author. Finally, I do not have a problem with the wikilinking - in fact I consider this to be a positive aspect since it leads readers to explore other pages on the site (and has been common practice on all WQ pages for as long as I can remember). ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Okay, thank you, I respect your opinions. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I tend to agree with [[User:UDScott|UDScott]]'s analysis. I view QOTD as ephemeral, and am just not particularly interested in being involved in that process. I have suggested a quote or two over the years, but working on it day in and day out seems like a grind, and I'm glad someone else is willing to take up the task at all. That said, I certainly don't think it would ''harm'' the process for more editors to be involved in suggesting quotes to be used or evaluating suggestions that have been made. As for layout, I generally agree that we should have fewer images (one on each side should be enough), and I like UDScott's suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review. As for wikilinking, I also think that this is a good thing for our project, and would actually like to see a ''lot'' more of it, not just in QOTD, but in our articles generally. While we are not an advertising click farm that profits by getting people to view more pages, we do want the reader to have the best possible sense of the breadth of our project, and the greatest ease in jumping to other pages that might be of interest. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you. So moving forward, we have three editors so far that support the suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review, and having the community more involved in the layout process. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: '''The layout ''usually'' is present for review a day or two in advance, and I will endeavor to have some ideas presented even earlier in the future, as they often have been.''' I had to laugh out loud a bit here, because in rather typical fashion, you choose to ''ignore'' what ''praise'' or ''recognition'' my past presentations have generally had for over 10 years of nearly daily efforts here and ONLY emphasize what you wish to emphasize, which you reiterate in ways which, to the casual scanner of the comments, could make it seem previous responses were primarily critical of them, and present them in such ways as seem designed to develop more means to actively constrain or counter my involvement in various ways. I will note that over the years I believe that I have received far more praise for my efforts from casual visitors to the site and regular editors than disrespectful criticism, though some of the few people most prone to that have gradually accumulated into a small but relatively effective pack in their efforts to constrain the options available not only to me, but to everyone, and they have done this, thus far with relatively little notice or opposition from people more inclined to appreciate and include imagery in their presentations.

: '''Despite occasional procrastination or tardiness, I have ''usually'' had presentations ready at least a couple days in advance, and yet I am certainly against any authorization that these simply be butchered by specious arguments or assertions by those not interested in doing much layout work themselves.''' Though there are certainly further complications which could arise, opening up the processes more is not something I certainly am NOT adamantly against, but '''IF things are going to become more formally complicated and there is to be some final contestation for final layout I say it should be without any pre-determined constraints, beyond the legally necessary ones such as have ''always'' been recognized. IF there are alternate layouts to be proposed, by anyone, they should probably be presented on the talk pages of the related date, and if it seems there is a need for a vote between any alternatives we should let the most popular layout, within actual legal limits, become the chosen one, without PRIOR constraints and conditions of WHAT and HOW or WHY it can be presented.''' I know this might seem a somewhat frightening proposition to those who most seek to actively constrain the options available to others, and of course greater participation might not be what some people are actually after, and they merely seek to subtly or overtly diminish the options of others to devise layouts and present them — but I believe that opening up even more layout options is far more fair and likely to produce actually GOOD results, and more participation, IF that is truly what people are in any way after, than simply allowing more ways a few people, noticeably hostile or critical to my work in the past, to simply ''butcher it down'' on a nearly daily basis, as a means of further personal harassment of an avid worker. '''THAT of course is something I believe any person of genuine integrity MUST oppose as a betrayal of the principles with which wiki projects were founded, and also of the more general [[ethical]] [[principles]] of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]] and [[Joyous]] [[Universal]] [[Love]].''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with UDScott's comments 100%. I would just add, that Kalki is ''very'' receptive to QOTD suggestions; for example, [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 20, 2014|today's QOTD]] (that you can currently see on the main page) was actually suggested by me. Although more participation would be welcome, the reality is that very few people participate in the voting process, or suggest quotes. This is unlikely to change. Kalki's work in this area is actually very much commendable, and how he has consistently found the time and energy to keep up with the QOTDs for so long, is simply incredible. Although I enjoyed reading through some pages where quotes are suggested, and voting in them, I must say most of them are filled with unmemorable (bad) quotes, and even selecting the "best" of them is a challenge. I believe the fault here is that quotes are being suggested for the days of birth of authors, so there are some days, that don't have a single good quote. If I had any criticism of Kalki's selections, it would be that he sometimes doesn't choose the very best quotes, simply because they are too short. (I think he prefers longer ones because they give him more liberty in the selection of pictures.) I disagree with BD's comment: the QOTD is not "ephemeral", the main page is ''by far'' Wikiquote's most viewed page. It is how WQ presents itself to newcomers. For this reason, other than the avoidance of New Age imagery, I would really like to see sources being presented along the quotes in the main page, which would be a more proper representation of WQ. This could be easily implemented, if Kalki could see, that presenting sources is not aesthetically displeasing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I actually often choose longer quotes because they often are more extensive in their expressions of ideas and thoughts than some of the briefer ones that are available. I certainly have no aversion to short quotes, and there are many good short ones which I have chosen and have long been among my favorites — but many of the more notable short ones available have already been used. I have often stated that I generally dislike the idea of having the citations in the layouts, because though simple reference to the titles of works are used if they have a separate page, all of the technical info is available on the author's or the work's page, which are linked to, and this can often be aesthetically detrimental or cumbersome in an otherwise appealing layout. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I just want to add that I mean ephemeral in the sense of the QOTD being fleeting - there one day, replaced the next. I prefer to work on permanent installations. I'm not saying that QOTD is unimportant, merely that it is impermanent, and I prefer to direct my energies towards the permanent. I would also like to suggest that, in order to preserve resources and have a contingency available in case there is a dispute, there's no reason that we can't reuse some old quotes and layouts for QOTD. We've been doing this for many years now, and I think that we can grab a handful of the best examples that were used, say, five or six years ago, and have them as a standby. No visitor is likely to remember our quotes from that long ago. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:The sad fact is that no matter how much you want to try and revive a process, you can't force volunteers from a volunteer-driven website to work on an area that they have no knowledge nor interest in. I think community participation in the QotD process has always been open, the problem merely is the community has no interest in said participation. A related problem is investment of our limited time and proper allocation of volunteer resources. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: In response to a few of BD2412's remarks, I would point out, that aside from a very few cases of ''accidental'' repetition, and one case I recall where the layout chosen and displayed was late in the day replaced with a layout from the year before in an act of censorship of ideas by another editor, there has been no deliberate repetition of layouts, though with limited imagery of some authors, a few used with new quotes probably are similar to those used in the past with others. The archives of [[QOTD by month|QOTD by month]] provide a record of the past layouts, since November 2007, and some other pages list the selections prior to those. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: I am aware that there has been virtually no repetition, and commend the work that has produced original work to this point. However, we have the option of doing some recycling. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Numbers: the main page is viewed by over [http://stats.grok.se/en.q/latest/Main_Page 10,000] people every day. I don't think we need to repeat quotes, but the fixation with authors' birth-dates rather than with presenting the very best, most brilliant, quotes we have, sometimes (in some days) leaves much to be desired. I don't know how Kalki feels about this. We could also try to be more flexible, and change the QOTD when someone notable passes away, as a tribute, or when a speech receives great attention, (e.g. [[Ellen Page]]'s,) though there could be some objections to this (''test of time'', etc). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I believe that the ''guideline'' of preferring relationships to the date has been useful in preventing or minimizing floods of repetition of similar suggestions or sources over extensive periods of days. It has never been treated as an ''absolute'' rule, and where significant authors have no known birth or death dates, there is often a strong case for these. I have sometimes thought of having some days of the weeks or month designated as giving a greater weight to ancient authors, but never came up with what I perceived to be an entirely workable scheme for such. Until 2009, when my long-standing and never-misused admin status was removed, and last minute alterations were no longer reliably possible, I ''often'' changed QOTDs at the last moment, to something appropriate to the circumstances of prominent person's deaths. This option is one I believe I have not exercised since that time, even when the pages were not yet locked, believing I lacked any "authority" or authorization to improvise beyond the suggestions ranked highly on the suggestion pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

: I agree that the level of participation is a callenge for this process. Note how few people participate in ranking quotes on a regular basis. I recall at least one occasion when Kalki made a [[Wikiquote:Village pump archive 25#QOTD problems|plea for more participation]], which produced a modest increase for only a brief time. In my own experience, when I did try to participate on a regular basis it became rather tedious after a while, particularly since there were often a large number of candidates to review and since, as DanielTom notes, a lot of then were not very good. There is a tendency for mediocre and poor suggestions to accumulate and remain after the better ones have been used and removed from the list. I approve of Kalki's idea for posting layouts farther in advance so they can be reviewed and discussed. A day ir two is not really enough time unless one makes a habit of reviewing them every single day. One week might be more convenient. This small step would make the process open to to broader participation for those occasions when people do want to participate. A more structured system might be considered if and when actual participation reaches a level that could benefit from organization. Making it an open process is the most important step. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Kalki keeps Wikiquote fresh and updated with the daily quotes provided by him. Everyone can find faults, but is there anyone willing to put into as huge effort as he does? --[[User:Spannerjam|Spannerjam]] ([[User talk:Spannerjam|talk]]) 12:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

== Copyrighted franchise quotes ==

Hello, I'm brand new here, so please forgive me for asking this if I'm missing something really obvious, but how do we handle copyrighted franchise quotes (i.e. Pokedex entries or trading card flavor text)? I'm not seeing any here, so I'd like to add them, but since they're copyrighted, I'm not sure. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: Are they actually ''quoted'' by anyone? Are they attested in a source other than the card itself, or the manufacturer's website? This sounds pretty close to [[advertising slogans]], for which we have imposed a requirement of third-party quoting, to avoid promotional exploitation here. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::So if I can find a third-party source besides quote collections, then they're okay? Is there a way to add said sources? I'm not seeing any on the pages I've seen so far. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 04:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I suppose you could go by the format in [[advertising slogans]], or see [[English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb)]], since we have a similar reporting requirement for proverbs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: Alright, thanks! [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 17:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] title discussion ==

A proposal has been made at Wikipeda, at [[w:Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8]], to change the title of the article, "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to "Hillary Clinton". I presume that if that move succeeds, we would likewise move our [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] page to [[Hillary Clinton]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Changes to the default site typography coming soon ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">
This week, the typography on Wikimedia sites will be updated for all readers and editors who use the default "Vector" skin. This change will involve new serif fonts for some headings, small tweaks to body content fonts, text size, text color, and spacing between elements. The schedule is:

* '''April 1st''': non-Wikipedia projects will see this change live
* '''April 3rd''': Wikipedias will see this change live

This change is very similar to the "Typography Update" Beta Feature that has been available on Wikimedia projects since November 2013. After several rounds of testing and with feedback from the community, this Beta Feature will be disabled and successful aspects enabled in the default site appearance. Users who are logged in may still choose to use another skin, or alter their [[Special:MyPage/vector.css|personal CSS]], if they prefer a different appearance. Local [[MediaWiki:Common.css|common CSS]] styles will also apply as normal, for issues with local styles and scripts that impact all users.

For more information:
* [[mw:Typography refresh|Summary of changes and FAQ]]
* [[mw:Talk:Typography refresh|Discussion page]] for feedback or questions
* [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/03/27/typography-refresh/ Post] on blog.wikimedia.org

-- [[m:User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling]] (Product Manager) on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Design|User Experience Design]] team
</div>


: The more open font in the body text will take a little getting used to, but it could be worse. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:09, April Fools 2014 (UTC)
:: +1. (My initial thought was: "Let's hope this is an April Fool's joke!", but it's not ''that'' bad.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I actually find the text in "diff" pages much more legible. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Wikibreak. ==

I am feeling a bit burned out. I'll be back in a week or so. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== vandalism ==

As a relatively new user looking at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] I've just noticed that only administrators and bots automatically have their edits patrolled, which means that there is no way to filter out edits by experienced users from RC. Why don't you give <tt>autopatrolled</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> rights to non-admin users (by creating a user group)?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    09:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
: As far as I know, RC does not have a filter for autopatrolled users. NP does, but the number of new pages per day in this wiki is quite small compared to Wikipedia. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
::It has in Wikidata and Commons … do you have patroller rights?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    17:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Talk header

2014-04-03T14:45:05Z

FDMS4: no articles on Wikiquote

{| class="messagebox standard-talk" id="talkheader" border="solid thin black" align="center" style="background-color: #FFFFFF;"
|-
! colspan="2" style="border-bottom:1px solid #C0C090; background-color: #F8EABA;text-align:center;" |
{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|User talk|

This is [[{{SUBJECTPAGENAME}}|{{PAGENAME}}]]'s [[Help:Talk page|talk page]], where you can send messages and comments to {{PAGENAME}}.

|

This is the [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] for discussing improvements to the [[:{{SUBJECTPAGENAME}}]] page.

}}
|-
| style="background-color: #FFFFFF;" |
*'''[[Wikiquote:Sign your posts on talk pages|Please sign and date your posts]]''' using four tildes (<code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>).
* New discussion topics go at the bottom of the page; [http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title={{TALKPAGENAMEE}}&action=edit&section=new click here to start a new topic].
*'''New to Wikiquote?''' [[Wikiquote:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome]]! [[Wikiquote:FAQ|Frequently asked questions]].
{{#if: {{SUBJECTSPACE}}||*This is '''not a forum''' for general discussion about the page's subject.}}
| style="background-color: #FFFFFF; width: 35%;" |
<div style="border: 1px solid #C0C090; background-color: #F8EABA; margin-left: 20px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-right: 3px; ">
<center>'''[[w:Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|Talk page guidelines]]'''</center>

*[[Wikiquote:Civility|Be polite]]
*[[Wikiquote:Assume good faith|Assume good faith]]
*[[Wikiquote:No personal attacks|No personal attacks]]
*[[Wikiquote:Please do not bite the newcomers|Don't bite the newcomers]]!
</div>
|} <noinclude>

==Template documentation==

This [[Wikiquote:Template messages|template]] is designed to be used on any [[Wikiquote:Talk page|talk page]], to provide:

* A short introduction and appropriate links for newcomers
* A reminder of policy to experienced Wikiquotians everytime they visit the page

This template should be ''used only when needed''. Acculturation can't be forced, and it can be overdone. If the message is on every talk page, its impact will be reduced.

This template is a [[w:WP:SELF|self-reference]].

==See also==

* [[Wikiquote:Template messages]]
* [[w:Wikipedia:Template messages/Talk namespace]]
* [[MediaWiki:Talkpagetext]]

[[Category:General talk header templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</noinclude>

Talk:Walker Percy

2014-04-03T14:41:51Z

FDMS4: replaced vandalism with {{talkheader}}

Wikiquote:Templates

2014-04-03T14:27:24Z

FDMS4: /* Quotes by people */ typo

'''There have been various changes in the Wikimedia layouts and the software used.''' The suggestions and recommendations on this page are attempts to present important ''options'' for creating, formatting, and adding to Wikiquote pages. Some other options that previously worked no longer do, or are not as efficient as these methods.

__TOC__

== Links ==

There are two standard forms for linking from one Wikimedia project to another. The basic form uses standard wiki internal link syntax, and can be used anywhere. The second is a simplified templated format that is used specifically to connect articles in one project to their corresponding articles in other projects.

=== Linking to Wikipedia ===

The basic format for making links to [[w:Wikipedia|Wikipedia]] from Wikiquote or another Wikimedia project in the same language is:

:'''<tt><nowiki>[[w:Name or subject|Name or subject]]</nowiki></tt>'''

or, if the link name is identical to the link target, simply:

:'''<tt><nowiki>[[w:Name or subject|]]</nowiki></tt>'''

(Note the vertical bar in these links.) This should always be used to make a link from a reference in the ''text'' of a Wikiquote article, a policy page, or a talk page to the appropriate Wikipedia article. (For instance, the first occurrence of the subject of a Wikiquote article, which is rendered bold, should include one of these links to the corresponding subject on Wikipedia.)

The preferred format for making these links to the English Wikipedia from Wikimedia projects in languages ''other'' than English is:

:'''<tt><nowiki>[[w:en:Name or subject|Name or subject]]</nowiki></tt>'''

A list of the prefixes used to link to other projects and between languages can be found at [[Special:SiteMatrix|List of Wikimedia wikis]] under "Special pages" in the left-margin "toolbox".

The second format, typically used only in the "External links" section of Wikiquote articles, is a template or "box" link with the simple syntax:

:'''<tt><nowiki>{{wikipedia}}</nowiki></tt>'''

{{wikipedia|William Shakespeare}}
This generates a small box on the right-side of the article with a link to the corresponding article of the same name. For example, the Wikiquote article on [[William Shakespeare]] uses {{tl|wikipedia}} to link to its Wikipedia article, as shown on the right.

If the Wikipedia article has a different name, you can use the same template with the Wikipedia article's title as an option:

:'''<tt><nowiki>{{wikipedia|WP article title}}</nowiki></tt>'''

{{wikipedia|Firefly (TV series)}}
For example, the Wikiquote article on the TV series ''[[Firefly]]'' uses {{tlx|wikipedia|Firefly (TV series)}} to link to Wikipedia's [[w:Firefly (TV series)|Firefly (TV series)]] article, as shown on the right.

=== Linking to Wikiquote from other Wikimedia sites ===

The same two formats can be used to create a link ''to'' Wikiquote ''from'' a Wikipedia project in the same language. The first format uses a "q:" prefix to identify Wikiquote:

:'''<tt><nowiki>[[q:Name of target|displayed name of link]]</nowiki></tt>'''

These links can be used anywhere, but should include some indication in the displayed name that they link to Wikiquote, e.g., "Wikiquote's article on Kate Bush". Note that Wikipedia and other projects do ''not'' have the same practice of linking to Wikiquote in the introductory paragraphs that Wikiquote does for Wikipedia.

The preferred format for making these links to the English Wikiquote from Wikimedia projects in languages ''other'' than English is:

:'''<tt><nowiki>[[q:en:Name or subject|Name or subject]]</nowiki></tt>'''

A list of the prefixes used to link to other projects and between languages can be found at [[Special:SiteMatrix|List of Wikimedia wikis]] under "Special pages" in the left-margin "toolbox".

The second "box link" format for linking to Wikiquote from Wikipedia or other Wikimedia projects is:

:'''<tt><nowiki>{{wikiquote}}</nowiki></tt>'''

As with the Wikipedia box link above, if the Wikipedia article's title is different from the Wikiquote title, add the Wikiquote title to the template link:

:'''<tt><nowiki>{{wikiquote|WQ article title}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=== Old link styles ===

Links in Wikiquote that use the old style '''<tt><nowiki>[[en:Name or Subject]]</nowiki></tt>''' now merely redirect to places within the English Wikiquote, or have become non-active if the page being referred to has the same title as the link.

Links formatted as '''<tt><nowiki>[[wikipedia:en:Name or Subject|Name or Subject]]</nowiki></tt>''' still work, but they are not the preferred format.

'''In the course of doing other edits, or in dedicated transformation sessions, these links should be changed to the new format so they will function properly.'''

=== New categories option ===

The new [[Special:Categories]] option is an alternative to a manually created list to group articles by their subject matter.

In the past, "categories" have not been used extensively here; we are still in the process of deciding upon the names that should be used. On Wikipedia they are used on all pages, and they clearly provide many advantages, which may make some of the pages for manually created lists obsolete.

'''''Many pages still exist within Wikiquote with obsolete and now erroneous links to Wikipedia in the "en:SUBJECT" format. This now only makes a link to a Wikipedia page to generate a new article there. These obsolete links should be changed, wherever they are encountered, into the "w:SUBJECT" format.'''''

Please note that '''<nowiki>{{lynx}}</nowiki>''' for placing a palette of links at the bottom of pages is now deprecated.

== Formatting guidelines ==

''These are '''suggestions''' for the formatting of pages of different types.'' In general, on most pages sourced quotes should be placed in sections ''before'' quotes which are merely attributed. Within sections quotations should be arranged in either chronological or sequential order, if possible, or alphabetical order if not.

=== Quotes by people ===
NOTE: This template is now available for [[mw:Extension:Inputbox|Inputbox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/People]].
<nowiki>
'''[[w:Name|Full Name]]''' (Date of Birth - Date of Death) followed by
a simple brief note on a person's occupations and social roles. In this
and other commentary locations one can optionally provide pertinent links
to other locations within Wikiquote, the Wikipedia, or other Wikimedia projects.

{{people-stub}} (<--- use if only providing a few quotes to start)
== Quotes ==


* English Quotation
** Source of the quote. (with a date of source, when known)
** Optional clarifications, notes on context, etc.

* ''Non-English quote.''
** Translation: English Translation
** Source: Chapter xx, sentence xx or Act xx, Scene xx.
** Optional clarifications, notes on context, etc.

=== Quotes from specific Novels/Plays/Works (date published or created)===
''[[Book/Play1]]'' ([http://- Book/Play1])
''[[Book/Play2]]'' ([http://- Book/Play2])

== Quotes about person/work ==


== External links==
{{Wikipedia}} (optional)
[http://(address) Site description]
[http://(address) Site description 2]

{{DEFAULTSORT:(Last name, First name)}}
[[Category:(Occupation)]]
[[Category:(Nationality)]]
[[Category:Living people]] (optional, only if the person is living)
</nowiki>

=== Films ===
NOTE: This template is now available for [[mw:Extension:Inputbox|Inputbox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/Films]].
<nowiki>
'''''[[w:title|]]''''' is a [[w:YEAR in film|YEAR film]] about (...quick description...)
:''Directed by [[w:director|]]. Written by [[w:writer|]]. (<--- if present at wikiquote use [[name]] instead of [[w:name|]])
<center>'''(Tag line of the movie)''' ([[#taglines|taglines]])</center>

{{film-stub}} (<--- use if only providing a few quotes to start)
== character1 ==
* (...quote...)

* (...quote...)

== character2 ==
* (...quote...)

* (...quote...)

== Others ==
* '''character4''': (...quote...)

* '''character5''': (...quote...)

== Dialogue ==
:'''character2''': (...quote...)
:'''character4''': (...quote...)
:'''character2''': (...quote...)

<hr width="50%"/>
:'''character1''': (...quote...)
:'''character2''': (...quote...)
:'''character1''': (...quote...)
:'''character3''': (...quote...)

== Taglines ==
* (Tag line of the movie)
* ...
* (Tag line of the movie2)

== Cast ==
* [[w:cast1|]] - character1
* [[w:cast2|]] - character2
* [[w:cast3|]] - character3
* ...

== External links ==
{{wikipedia}}
* {{imdb title|id=IMDB ID|title=MOVIE TITLE}} (<--- see [[Template:Imdb title]] on how to get IMDB ID)
* {{rotten-tomatoes|id=RT ID|title=MOVIE TITLE}} (<--- see [[Template:Rotten-tomatoes]] on how to get RT ID)
* The Official [http:// ''title''] Site

[[Category:(GENRE of the film)]]
</nowiki>

=== TV shows ===
See [[Wikiquote:Templates/TV shows]].

NOTE: This template can be used with [[mw:Extension:Inputbox|Inputbox]].

=== Quotes from literary works ===
NOTE: This template is now available for [[mw:Extension:Inputbox|Inputbox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/Literary works]].
<nowiki>
'''''[[w:Name of Book or Play|]]''''' (year published or created) ''by [[Author]]'' with short discription.

* "Quote1."
** Source: Chapter xx, sentence xx or Act xx, Scene xx.
** Notes on context, paraphrasing, etc

* "Quote2."
** Source: Chapter xx, sentence xx or Act xx, Scene xx.<
** Paraphrased: paraphrasing (where it is not clear)
** Notes: context, etc

* ''"Non-English quote."''
** English Translation
** Source (optionally with information on Chapter xx, sentence xx or Act xx, Scene xx.)
** Notes on context, paraphrasing, etc

== External links ==
{{wikipedia}}
{{wikisource}}
* [http://sources.wikipedia.org/wiki/title Wikisource - Name of Book or Play]
* [http://internetaddress.org/wiki/internet_address Site description]

[[Category:Literary works|TITLE, The]]
</nowiki>

=== Proverbs ===
NOTE: This template is now available for [[mw:Extension:Inputbox|Inputbox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/Proverbs]].
<nowiki>
* Proverb.
** Transliteration: (if in non-roman script)
** English equivalent: ''or'' English translation:
** Source citation
** Alternatives: ''or'' Variants:
*** Alternative1
*** Alternative2
** Notes (context, clarifications where needed, etc.)
[[Category:Proverbs]]
</nowiki>

=== Themes ===
NOTE: This template is now available for [[meta:InputBox|InputBox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/Themes]].
<nowiki>
'''[[w:Theme|Theme]]''' is (''a short description of the theme'').


== Quotes ==


* Quote 1.
** [[Author A]], source

* Quote 2.
** [[Author B]], ''[[Name of Book or Play]]'' (year), place within source

* ''Foreign language quote.''
** Translation: English translation
** Author and source

== Attributed ==


* Second-hand quote.
** [[Author]], quoted by Attributor and source

[[Category:Themes]]

</nowiki>

=== Compact alphabetical table of contents ===
Include this for pages with a large number of quotes such as [[English proverbs]].
<nowiki>
__NOTOC__
[[#A|A]] [[#B|B]] [[#C|C]] [[#D|D]] [[#E|E]] [[#F|F]] [[#G|G]] [[#H|H]]
[[#I|I]] [[#J|J]] [[#K|K]] [[#L|L]] [[#M|M]] [[#N|N]] [[#O|O]] [[#P|P]]
[[#Q|Q]] [[#R|R]] [[#S|S]] [[#T|T]] [[#U|U]] [[#V|V]] [[#W|W]] [[#X|X]]
[[#Y|Y]] [[#Z|Z]]
</nowiki>

=== Redirect pages ===

NOTE: This template should be used by [[meta:InputBox|InputBox]] use at [[Wikiquote:Templates/Redirect]]

== Additional formatting options ==

In addition to the formatting used in the above templates there are optional additions that some people sometimes use:

* After the essential information in the Header, further very short comments can be provided, and links to related articles on individuals or subjects (see [[George Washington]]).

* Within the ''notes'' about a quotations or article:
** Link to Wikipedia or external sources with pertinent information relating to a quote or article.
** Create links to Wikipedia for any YEARS or DATES, to provide a reference to other events or subjects related to such designations of time.

* See also [[Wikiquote:Template examples|Template examples]].

== Notes ==
* The following format for people articles is obsolete and not recommended:
<pre>
== [[w:Name Surname|]] (born 19XX) or (XXXX-XXXX) ==
''Occupational information''
=== Verified ===
* blah blah blah
</pre>

* Category <nowiki>== Verified ==</nowiki> is obsolete. Please use <nowiki>== Sourced ==</nowiki> instead.

* Do not include the <nowiki>== Sourced ==</nowiki> heading if there are no ''sourced'' quotes (i.e., quotes where the source is identified). Similarly there is no need for the <nowiki>== Attributed ==</nowiki> heading if there are no attributed quotes.

* ''Only include transliterations and translations if the quote is not in English.''

* Put non-English quotations in ''italics'' (but not the translations).

* Only include Notes where applicable.

* '''Order dated quotes and dated sections chronologically.'''

* '''Order undated quotes ''alphabetically'', especially if there are a large number of them, as this helps to prevent duplication.'''

* Put quotes from autobiographies on the person's page, not on a separate one for the book.

== Wikiquote maintenance ==

''See [[:Category:Wikiquote maintenance]].''
(e.g., [[:Category:Film stubs]])

[[Category:Wikiquote|Templates]]

[[Category:Policies needing revision]]

[[de:Wikiquote:Vorlagen]]
[[it:Wikiquote:Modello di voce]]
[[he:ויקיציטוט:תבניות דף]]
[[no:Wikiquote]]
[[pl:Wikicytaty:Schematy stron]]
[[pt:Wikiquote:Modelos]]
[[simple:Wikiquote:Templates]]
[[zh:Wikiquote:模板]]

A. A. Milne

2014-04-03T14:21:59Z

FDMS4: Undo revision 1706102 by 182.73.162.99 (talk): Inappropriate weblink.

[[File:A a milne.jpg|thumb|When you are a Bear of Very Little [[Brain]], and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other [[people]] looking at it.]]

'''[[w:A. A. Milne|Alan Alexander Milne]]''' ([[18 January]] [[1882]] – [[31 January]] [[1956]]) was an English author, best known for his books about the teddy bear [[w:Winnie-the-Pooh|Winnie-the-Pooh]] and for various children's poems.

== Quotes ==
[[File:Christopher Robin Milne.jpg |thumb|There are some [[people]] who begin the Zoo at the [[beginning]], called WAYIN, and walk as quickly as they can past every cage until they get to the one called WAYOUT, but the nicest people go straight to the [[animal]] they [[love]] the most, and stay there.]]

* '''I wrote somewhere once that the third-rate [[mind]] was only [[happy]] when it was thinking with the majority, the second-rate mind was only happy when it was thinking with the minority, and the first-rate mind was only happy when it was [[thinking]].'''
** ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=QmQDAAAAMAAJ&q="I+wrote+somewhere+once+that+the+third+rate+mind+was+only+happy+when+it+was+thinking+with+the+majority+the+second+rate+mind+was+only+happy+when+it+was+with+the+minority+and+a+first+rate+mind+was+only+happy+when+it+was+thinking" War with Honour]'', [[w:Macmillan Publishers|Macmillan War Pamphlets]], Issue 2 (1940)

=== ''[[w:When We Were Very Young|When We Were Very Young]]'' (1924) ===
* They're changing guard at Buckingham Palace — Christopher Robin went down with Alice. They've great big parties inside the grounds. "I wouldn't be king for a hundred pounds", Says Alice.

* James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree Took great care of his mother Though he was only three. James James said to his mother Mother he said, said he: You mustn't go down to the end of the town if you don't go down with me. James James Morrison's Mother Put on a golden gown. James James Morrison's Mother Went to the end of the town James James Morrison's Mother Said to herself, said she: I can go right down to the end of the town and be back in time for tea!

* Halfway down the stairs Is a stair Where I sit. There isn't any Other stair Quite like It. I'm not at the bottom, I'm not at the top; So this is the stair Where I always Stop. Halfway up the stairs Isn't up, Isn't down. It isn't in the nursery, It isn't in the town. And all sorts of funny thoughts Run round my head: "It isn't really Anywhere! It's somewhere else Instead!"

=== ''[[w:Winnie-the-Pooh (book)|Winnie-the-Pooh]]'' (1926)===
[[Image:The original Winnie the Pooh toys.jpg|244px|thumb|right|Time for something sweet...]]

* Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin. It is, as far as he knows, the only way of coming downstairs, but sometimes he feels that there really is another way, if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think about it.
** Chapter One, opening lines

* "If there's a buzzing-noise, somebody's making a buzzing-noise, and the only reason for making a buzzing-noise that ''I'' know of is because you're a bee." Then he thought another long time, and said: "And the only reason for being a bee that I know of is making honey." And then he got up, and said: "And the only reason for making honey is so as ''I'' can eat it." So he began to climb the tree.
** Chapter One - Pooh

* Pooh always liked a little something at eleven o'clock in the morning, and he was very glad to see Rabbit getting out the plates and mugs; and when Rabbit said, "Honey or condensed milk with your bread?" he was so excited that he said, "Both," and then, so as not to seem greedy, he added, "But don't bother about the bread, please."
** Chapter Two

* ''"What?"'' said Piglet, with a jump. And then, to show that he hadn't been frightened, he jumped up and down once or twice more in an exercising sort of way.
** Chapter Three

* "I have been Foolish and Deluded," said he, "and I am a Bear of No Brain at All."
** Chapter Three - Pooh

* These notices had been written by Christopher Robin, who was the only one in the forest who could spell; for Owl, wise though he was in many ways, able to read and write and spell his own name WOL, yet somehow went all to pieces over delicate words like MEASLES and BUTTEREDTOAST.
** Chapter Four

* "I'm giving this to Eeyore," he explained, "as a present. What are ''you'' going to give?" "Couldn't I give it too?" said Piglet. "From both of us?" "No," said Pooh. "That would ''not'' be a good plan."
** Chapter Six

* It was just as if somebody inside him were saying, "Now then, Pooh, time for a little something."
** Chapter Six

* "Because my spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places."
** Chapter Six - Pooh

* "It is hard to be brave," said Piglet, sniffing slightly, "when you're only a Very Small Animal."
** Chapter Seven

* Owl was telling Kanga an Interesting Anecdote full of long words like Encyclopædia and Rhododendron to which Kanga wasn't listening.
** Chapter Eight

* "It's a little Anxious," he said to himself, "to be a Very Small Animal Entirely Surrounded by Water."
** Chapter Nine - Piglet

* Kanga said to Roo, "Drink up your milk first, dear, and talk afterwards." So Roo, who was drinking his milk, tried to say that he could do both at once . . . and had to be patted on the back and dried for quite a long time afterwards.
** Chapter Ten

* "H–hup!" said Roo accidentally. "Roo, dear!" said Kanga reproachfully. "Was it me?" asked Roo, a little surprised.
* Chapter Ten

* "And how are you?", said Winnie-the-Pooh. (...) "Not very how", he said. "I don't seem to have felt at all how for a long time."

* Cottleston, cottleston, cottleston pie, A fly can't bird, but a bird can fly. Ask me a riddle and I reply, Cottleston, cottleston, cottleston pie.

* "Good morning, Pooh Bear", said Eeyore gloomily. "If it ''is'' a good morning", he said. "Which I doubt", said he.

* Here is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin.

* How sweet to be a cloud Floating in the blue

* "Hello Rabbit, is that you?" "Let's pretend it isn't", said Rabbit, "and see what happens."

* Isn't it funny How a bear likes honey? Buzz! Buzz! Buzz! I wonder why he does?

* There are some people who begin the Zoo at the beginning, called WAYIN, and walk as quickly as they can past every cage until they get to the one called WAYOUT, but the nicest people go straight to the animal they love the most, and stay there.

* We can't all and some of us don't. That's all there is to it.
** -Eeyore

=== ''[[w:Now We Are Six|Now We are Six]]'' (1927) ===
* When I was One, I had just begun. When I was Two, I was nearly new. When I was Three I was hardly me. When I was Four, I was not much more. When I was Five, I was just alive. But now I am Six, I'm as clever as clever, So I think I'll be six now for ever and ever.
** ''The End''

* I found a little beetle, so that beetle was his name, And I called him Alexander and he answered just the same. I put him in a matchbox, and I kept him all the day...And Nanny let my beetle out Yes, Nanny let my beetle out She went and let my beetle out- And beetle ran away.She said she didn't mean it, and I never said she did, She said she wanted matches, and she just took off the lid She said that she was sorry, but it's difficult to catch An excited sort of beetle you've mistaken for a match.She said that she was sorry, and I really mustn't mind As there's lots and lots of beetles which she's certain we could find If we looked about the garden for the holes where beetles hid- And we'd get another matchbox, and write BEETLE on the lid.We went to all the places which a beetle might be near, And we made the sort of noises which a beetle likes to hear, And I saw a kind of something, and I gave a sort of shout: "A beetle-house and Alexander Beetle coming out!"It was Alexander Beetle I'm as certain as can be And he had a sort of look as if he thought it might be ME, And he had a kind of look as if he thought he ought to say: "I'm very, very sorry that I tried to run away."And Nanny's very sorry too, for you know what she did, And she's writing ALEXANDER very blackly on the lid, So Nan and me are friends, because it's difficult to catch An excited Alexander you've mistaken for a match.
** ''Forgiven'' (affectionately also known as ''Alexander Beetle'')

=== ''[[w:The House at Pooh Corner|The House at Pooh Corner]]'' (1928)===
[[File:Wooden Pooh and friends.jpg|right|thumb|244px|So they went off together. But wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, in that enchanted place on the top of the forest a little boy and his bear will always be playing.]]
* When we asked Pooh what the opposite of an Introduction was, he said "The what of a what?" which didn't help us as much as we had hoped, but luckily Owl kept his head and told us that the Opposite of an Introduction, my dear Pooh, was a Contradiction; and, as he is very good at long words, I am sure that that's what it is.
** Contradiction

* The more he looked inside the more Piglet wasn't there.
** Chapter One - Pooh

* "Nearly eleven o'clock," said Pooh happily. "You're just in time for a little smackerel of something."
** Chapter One

* "Shall I look too?" said Pooh, who was beginning to feel a little eleven o'clockish. And he found a small tin of condensed milk, and something seemed to tell him that Tiggers didn't like this, so he took it into a corner by itself, and went with it to see that nobody interrupted it.
** Chapter Two

* Pooh said good-bye affectionately to his fourteen pots of honey, and hoped they were fifteen; and he and Rabbit went out into the Forest.
** Chapter Three

* Piglet looked up, and looked away again. And he felt so Foolish and Uncomfortable that he had almost decided to run away to Sea and be a Sailor, when suddenly he saw something.
** Chapter Three

* One day when Pooh was thinking, he thought he would go and see Eeyore, because he hadn't seen him since yesterday.
** Chapter Four

* Now it happened that Kanga had felt rather motherly that morning, and Wanting to Count Things — like Roo's vests, and how many pieces of soap there were left, and the two clean spots in Tigger's feeder.
** Chapter Four

* "Yes," said Tigger, "they're very good flyers, Tiggers are. Strornry good flyers."
** Chapter Four

* Piglet took Pooh's arm, in case Pooh was frightened.
** Chapter Four

* "And he respects Owl, because you can't help respecting anybody who can spell TUESDAY, even if he doesn't spell it right; but spelling isn't everything. There are days when spelling Tuesday simply doesn't count."
** Chapter Five - Rabbit, speaking of Christopher Robin

* Owl took Christopher Robin's notice from Rabbit and looked at it nervously. He could spell his own name WOL, and he could spell Tuesday so that you knew it wasn't Wednesday, and he could read quite comfortably when you weren't looking over his shoulder and saying "Well?" all the time, and he could—
** Chapter Five

* "I've got a sort of idea," said Pooh at last, "but I don't suppose it's a very good one." "I don't suppose it is either," said Eeyore.
** Chapter Six

* "when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it."
** Chapter Six - "In which Pooh invents a new game and Eeyore joins in"

* Pooh looked at his two paws. He knew that one of them was the right, and he knew that when you had decided which one of them was the right, then the other one was the left, but he never could remember how to begin.
** Chapter Seven

* "Lucky we know the forest so well, or we might get lost," said Rabbit half an hour later, and he gave the careless laugh which you give when you know the Forest so well that you can't get lost.
** Chapter Seven

* ...and then he and Roo pushed each other about in a friendly way, and Tigger accidentally knocked over one or two chairs by accident, and Roo accidentally knocked over one on purpose, and Kanga said, "Now then, run along."
** Chapter Seven

* "You only blinched inside," said Pooh, "and that's the bravest way for a Very Small Animal not to blinch that there is."
** Chapter Nine

* "Well," said Pooh, "what I like best—" and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey ''was'' a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
** Chapter Ten

* "I'm not going to do nothing anymore." "Never again?" "Well, not so much. They don't let you."

* "I shouldn't be surprised if it hailed a good deal tomorrow", Eeyore was saying. "Blizzards and what-not. Being fine today doesn't mean anything. It has no sig - what's that word? Well, it has none of that. It's just a small piece of wheather."

* If I plant a honeycomb outside my house, then it will grow up into a beehive.

* So they went off together. But wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, in that enchanted place on the top of the forest a little boy and his bear will always be playing.

* "That's what Jagulars always do", said Pooh, much interested. "They call 'Help! Help!' and then when you look up, they drop on you."

* "They wanted to come in after the pounds", explained Pooh, "so I let them. It's the best way to write poetry, letting things come."

== Quotes about Milne ==

* '''I love kids’ fantasy...everything from [[L. Frank Baum]] to A. A. Milne … Narnia to Wonderland to Neverland.''' These are [[magical]] [[stories]] that nurtured me as a child and then nurtured my own [[children]], as well. What better legacy could a writer have than to continue that wonderful tradition of [[imagination]] and insight and adventure?
** [[J. M. DeMatteis]], in [http://www.thecomicfanatic.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=566 Interview at "A Conversation With The Legendary J.M. DeMatteis!" at TheComicFanatic.com (9 December 2004)]

* And it is that word 'hummy,' my darlings, that marks the first place in ''The House at Pooh Corner'' at which Tonstant Weader fwowed up.
** [[Dorothy Parker]], in her "Constant Reader" book review of ''[[w:The House at Pooh Corner|The House at Pooh Corner]]'' in ''The New Yorker'' (20 October 1928)

==External links==
{{wikipedia}}
{{wikisource author}}
{{commons category|Alan Alexander Milne|A. A. Milne}}
* [http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/yreaders/pooh75/home.html 75th anniversary presentation at Dutton Children's Books]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Milne, A. A.}}
[[Category:English poets]]
[[Category:Children's authors]]
[[Category:English playwrights]]
[[Category:1950s deaths]]

[[bg:Мечо Пух]]
[[eo:Alan Alexander Milne]]
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NASA

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[[Image:Apollo 11 launch.jpg|144px|thumb|right|The Congress hereby declares that it is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.]]
The '''[[w:NASA|National Aeronautics and Space Administration]] (NASA)''' is the agency responsible for the civilian space program of the United States, and for its long-term aerospace research. This page is for quotes about NASA.

== Sourced ==

* '''For the benefit of all.'''
** NASA motto.

* The Congress hereby declares that it is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.
** [http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/spaceact.html National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958], which created NASA, signed by US President [[Dwight D. Eisenhower]] (29 July 1958)

* To improve life here. To extend life to there. To find life beyond.
** ''The NASA Vision''

* To understand and protect our home planet, To explore the universe and search for life, To inspire the next generation of explorers.
** ''NASA Mission''

* Shaping the Future: Launching New Endeavors to Inspire the Next Generation of Explorers.
** Motto of NASA's Office of Education

* NASA, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Where else but in Texas would men set up to administer space?
** [[James Cameron (journalist)|James Cameron]], in ''Cameron Country'', broadcast on BBC TV, [[July 12]], [[1969]].

* There's been a lot of discussion about NASA culture and changing that. I think our culture has always been one of trying to do a very difficult job and do it well.
** [[w:Mark E. Kelly|Mark E. Kelly]] in an [http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/preparingtravel/sts121_interview_kelly.html an interview] prior to [[w:STS-121|STS-121]]

* It [Traveling to Mars] is important for our future. If the dinosaurs had a space program, they'd still be here.
** [[Ronald John Garan, Jr.]] in a [http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/r62jp/iama_nasa_astronaut_that_recently_returned_to/c437ubd Reddit IAmA.]

==External links==
{{wikipedia}}
{{wikisource author}}
*[http://www.nasa.gov/ NASA official site]

[[Category:Organizations]]

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}} {{#if:{{{heading|}}}|{{{heading}}}|{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:template}}|[[Image:Template-info.svg|50px]] Template documentation|Documentation}}}}</div>
}}<div id="template_doc_page_transcluded" class="dablink plainlinks">{{#ifexist: {{{1|{{Documentation/docname}}}}}
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{{Documentation subpage}}

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=== Purpose ===
This template can be used to generate a link to a [[commons:Commons:Categories|Commons category]]. It intended for use in the "External links" section of an article.

=== Usage ===
<tt><nowiki>{{Commonscat-inline|Ursus maritimus}}</nowiki></tt>

yields: {{Commonscat-inline|Ursus maritimus}}
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<tt><nowiki>{{Commonscat-inline|Ursus maritimus|Polar bears}}</nowiki></tt>

yields: {{Commonscat-inline|Ursus maritimus|Polar bears}}

=== See also ===
* [[Template:Commonscat]]
* [[Template:Commons]]
* [[wikipedia:Layout#External links|Layout (External links)]]

* {{tl|Commons-inline}}
* {{tl|Wikinews-inline}}
* {{tl|Wikiquote-inline}}
* {{tl|Wikisource-inline}}
* {{tl|Wikispecies-inline}}
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Sinclair Lewis

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[[File:Sinclair Lewis 1930.jpg|144px|thumb|right|I have faith in Faith, I have reverence for all true Reverence.]]
'''[[w:Sinclair Lewis|Sinclair Lewis]]''' ([[7 February]] [[1885]] – [[10 January]] [[1951]]) was an American writer, the first American to win the Nobel Prize for Literature, in 1930. He was the second husband of [[Dorothy Thompson]].

== Sourced ==
[[File:Lewis-Sinclair-LOC.jpg|144px|thumb|right|Every compulsion is put upon writers to become safe, polite, obedient, and sterile.]]

* '''Every compulsion is put upon writers to become safe, polite, obedient, and sterile. In protest, I declined election to the National Institute of Arts and Letters some years ago, and now I must decline the Pulitzer Prize.'''
** Letter declining the 1926 Pulitzer Prize for ''Arrowsmith''

* '''Fortune has dealt with me rather too well. I have known little struggle, not much poverty, many generosities. Now and then I have, for my books or myself, been somewhat warmly denounced — there was one good pastor in California who upon reading my ''Elmer Gantry'' desired to lead a mob and lynch me, while another holy man in the state of Maine wondered if there was no respectable and righteous way of putting me in jail.''' And, much harder to endure than any raging condemnation, a certain number of old acquaintances among journalists, what in the galloping American slang we call the "I Knew Him When Club", have scribbled that since they know me personally, therefore I must be a rather low sort of fellow and certainly no writer. But if I have now and then received such cheering brickbats, still I, who have heaved a good many bricks myself, would be fatuous not to expect a fair number in return.
** Nobel Lecture (12 December 1930)

* Slow yellow river flowing, willows that gesture in tepid August airs, and four children playing at greatness, as, doubtless, great men themselves must play.
**''Ann Vickers'' (1933) First lines.

* Probably none of the Weagles gave five minutes' thought a year to theology or ecclesiology, except Ora, who occasionally stirred up a lot of interesting family irritation by announcing that he was going to become a Catholic, an Episcopalian, a Buddhist, or a Seventh Day Adventist.
** ''Work of Art'' (1934) Ch. 4

* Myron reflected that there are so many people in the world who are eager to do for you things that you do not wish done, provided only that you will do for them things that you don't wish to do.
** ''Work of Art'' (1934) Ch. 21

* Mr. Blingham, and may he fry in his own cooking-oil, was assistant treasurer of the Flaver-Saver Company.
** ''Kingsblood Royal'' (1947) First lines.

===''The Job'' (1917)===

* His entire system of theology was comprised in the Bible, which he never read, and the Methodist Church, which he rarely attended.

* '''Fine, large, meaningless, general terms like romance and business can always be related. They take the place of thinking, and are highly useful to optimists and lecturers.'''

* The reason for it all, nobody who is actually engaged in it can tell you, except the bosses, who believe that these sacred rites of composing dull letters and solemnly filing them away are observed in order that they may buy the large automobiles in which they do not have time to take the air.

* Mr. Wilkins came back and hemmed and hawed a good deal; he praised the work she hadn't considered well done, and pointed out faults in what she considered particularly clever achievements.

* It has been calculated that ninety-three million women in all parts of the world have ruined their complexions, and therefore, their souls, by Pemberton's creams and lotions for saving the same; and that nearly three-tenths of the alcohol consumed in prohibition counties is obtained in Pemberton's tonics and blood-builders and women's specifics, the last being regarded by large farmers with beards as especially tasty and stimulating.

* This age, which should adjudge happiness to be as valuable as soap or munitions, would never come so long as the workers accepted the testimony of paid spokesmen... to the effect that they were contented and happy, rather than the evidence of their own wincing nerves to the effect that they live in a polite version of hell.

===''Main Street'' (1920) ===

* '''She was not a Respectable Married Woman but fully a human being.'''

* There had to be one man in town independent enough to sass the banker!

* I went to a denominational college and learned that since dictating the Bible, and hiring a perfect race of ministers to explain it, God has never done much but creep around and try to catch us disobeying it.

* The outhouse was so overmodestly masked with vines and lattice that it was not concealed at all.

* '''I think perhaps we want a more conscious life. We're tired of drudging and sleeping and dying. We're tired of seeing just a few people able to be individualists. We're tired of always deferring hope till the next generation.''' We're tired of hearing politicians and priests and cautious reformers... coax us, 'Be calm! Be patient! Wait! We have the plans for a Utopia already made; just wiser than you.' For ten thousand years they've said that. We want our Utopia now — and we're going to try our hands at it.

* "I wonder if you can understand the 'fun' of making a beautiful thing, the pride and satisfaction of it, and the holiness!" The company glanced doubtfully at one another. In Gopher Prairie it is not good form to be holy except at church, between ten-thirty and twelve on Sunday.

* Carol was discovering that the one thing that can be more disconcerting than intelligent hatred is demanding love. "She supposed that she was being gracefully dull and standardized in the Smails' presence, but they scented the heretic, and with forward-stooping delight they sat and tried to drag out her ludicrous concepts for their amusement. They were like the Sunday-afternoon mob starting at monkeys in the Zoo, poking fingers and making faces and giggling at the resentment of the more dignified race... They were staggered to learn that a real tangible person, living in Minnesota, and married to their own flesh-and-blood relation, could apparently believe that divorce may not always be immoral; that illegitimate children do not bear any special and guaranteed form of curse; that there are ethical authorities outside of the Hebrew Bible; that men have drunk wine yet not died in the gutter; that the capitalistic system of distribution and the Baptist wedding-ceremony were not known in the Garden of Eden;... that there are Ministers of the Gospel who accept evolution; that some persons of intelligence and business ability do not always vote the Republican ticket straight;... that a violin is not inherently more immoral than a chapel organ... 'Where does she get all them the'ries?' marveled Uncle Whittier Smail.

* The greatest mystery about a human being is not his reaction to sex or praise, but the manner in which he contrives to put in twenty-four hours a day. It is this which puzzles the longshoreman about the clerk, the Londoner about the bushman.

* '''It has not yet been recorded that any human being has gained a very large or permanent contentment from meditation upon the fact that he is better off than others.'''

* With... small-town life... there are hundreds of thousands... who are not content. The more intelligent young people... flee to the cities... and... stay there, seldom returning even for holidays. The reason, Carol insisted... is an unimaginatively standardized background, a sluggishness of speech and manners, a rigid ruling of the spirit by the desire to appear respectable. It is contentment... the contentment of the quiet dead, who are scornful of the living for their restless walking. It is the prohibition of happiness. It is the slavery self-sought and self-defended. It is dullness made God. A savorless people, gulping tasteless food and sitting afterward, coatless and thoughtless, in rocking-chairs prickly with inane decorations, listening to mechanical music, saying mechanical things about the excellence of Ford automobiles, and viewing themselves as the greatest race in the world.

* '''Except for half a dozen in each town the citizens are proud of that achievement of ignorance which is so easy to come by. To be 'intellectual' or 'artistic' or, in their own word, to be 'highbrow,' is to be priggish and of dubious virtue.'''

* A village in a country which is taking pains to become altogether standardized and pure, which aspires to succeed Victorian England as the chief mediocrity of the world, is no longer merely provincial, no longer downy and restful in its leaf-shadowed ignorance. It is a force seeking to conquer the earth... Sure of itself, it bullies other civilizations, as a traveling salesman in a brown derby conquers the wisdom of China and tacks advertisements of cigarettes over arches for centuries dedicate to the sayings of Confucius. Such a society functions admirably in the production of cheap automobiles, dollar watches, and safety razors. But it is not satisfied until the entire world also admits that the end and joyous purpose of living is to ride in flivvers, to make advertising-pictures of dollar watches, and in the twilight to sit talking not of love and courage but of the convenience of safety razors.

* Once she kidnapped me and drug me to the Methodist Church. I goes in, pious as Widow Bogart, and sits still and never cracks a smile while the preacher is favoring us with his misinformation on evolution. But afterwards, when the old stalwarts were pumphandling everybody at the door and calling 'em 'Brother' and 'Sister,' they let me sail right by with nary a clinch.

* '''Maybe if they didn't know it beforehand, they wouldn't find out I'd ever been guilty of trying to think for myself.'''

* The doctor asserted, 'Sure religion is a fine influence — got to have it to keep the lower classes in order — fact, it's the only thing that appeals to a lot of these fellows and makes 'em respect the rights of property. And I guess this theology is O.K.; lot of wise old coots figured it out, and they knew more about it than we do.' He believed in the Christian religion, and never thought about it; he believed in the church, and seldom went near it; he was shocked by Carol's lack of faith, and wasn't quite sure what was the nature of the faith that she lacked. Carol herself was an uneasy and dodging agnostic. When she ventured to Sunday School and heard the teachers droning that the genealogy of Shamsherai was a valuable ethical problem for children to think about; when she experimented with the Wednesday prayer-meeting and listened to store-keeping elders giving unvarying weekly testimony in primitive erotic symbols and such gory Chaldean phrases as 'washed in the blood of the lamb' and 'a vengeful God...' then Carol was dismayed to find the Christian religion, in America, in the twentieth century, as abnormal as Zoroastrianism — without the splendor. But when she went to church suppers a felt the friendliness, saw the gaiety with which the sisters served cold ham and scalloped potatoes; when Mrs. Champ Perry cried to her, on an afternoon call, 'My dear, if you just knew how happy it makes you to come into abiding grace,' then Carol found the humanness behind the sanguinary and alien theology.

* There are two insults which no human being will endure: The assertion that he hasn't a sense of humor, and the doubly impertinent assertion that he has never known trouble.

* Think how much better it is to criticize conventional customs if you yourself live up to them, scrupulously. Then people can't say you're attacking them to excuse your own infractions. Yes, I've heard that plea... To word it differently,'' 'You must live up to the popular code if you believe in it; but if you don't believe in it, then you must live up to it!' ''

===''Babbitt'' (1922)===

* The towers of Zenith aspired above the morning mist; austere towers of steel and cement and limestone, sturdy as cliffs and delicate as silver rods. ~ Ch. 1 [first sentence]

* He had enormous and poetic admiration, though very little understanding, of all mechanical devices. They were his symbols of truth and beauty. Regarding each new intricate mechanism — metal lathe, two-jet carburetor, machine gun, oxyacetylene welder — he learned one good realistic-sounding phrase, and used it over and over, with a delightful feeling of being technical and initiated. ~ Ch. 6

* Being a man given to oratory and high principles, he enjoyed the sound of his own vocabulary and the warmth of his own virtue. ~ Ch. 6

* Babbitt looked up irritably from the comic strips in the Evening Advocate. They composed his favorite literature and art, these illustrated chronicles in which Mr. Mutt hit Mr. Jeff with a rotten egg, and Mother corrected Father's vulgarisms by means of a rolling-pin. With the solemn face of a devotee, breathing heavily through his open mouth, he plodded nightly through every picture, and during the rite he detested interruptions. Furthermore, he felt that on the subject of Shakespeare he wasn't really an authority. Neither the Advocate-Times, the Evening Advocate, nor the Bulletin of the Zenith Chamber of Commerce had ever had an editorial on the matter, and until one of them had spoken he found it hard to form an original opinion. ~ Ch. 6

* Rev. Mr. Monday, the Prophet of Punch, has shown that he is the world's greatest salesman of salvation, and that by efficient organization the overhead of spiritual [[Regeneration (theology)|regeneration]] may be kept down to an unprecedented rock-bottom basis. He has converted over two hundred thousand lost and priceless souls at an average cost of less than ten dollars a head. ~ Ch. 7

* '''I hate your city. It has standardized all the beauty out of life. It is one big railroad station — with all the people taking tickets for the best cemeteries.''' ~ Ch. 7

* Just as he was an Elk, a Booster, and a member of the Chamber of Commerce, just as the priests of the Presbyterian Church determined his every religious belief and the senators who controlled the Republican Party decided in little smoky rooms in Washington what he should think about disarmament, tariff, and Germany, so did the large national advertisers fix the surface of his life, fix what he believed to be his individuality. These standard advertised wares--toothpastes, socks, tires, cameras, instantaneous hot-water heaters--were his symbols and proofs of excellence; at first sight the signs, then the substitutes, for joy and passion and wisdom. ~ Ch. 7

* '''What I fight in Zenith is the standardization of thought, and, of course, the traditions of competition.''' The real villains of the piece are the clean, kind, industrious Family Men who use every known brand of trickery and cruelty to insure the prosperity of their cubs. The worst thing about these fellows is that they're so good and, in their work at least, so intelligent. You can't hate them properly, and yet their standardized minds are the enemy. ~ Ch. 7

* The men leaned back on their heels, put their hands in their trouser-pockets, and proclaimed their views with the booming profundity of a prosperous male repeating a thoroughly hackneyed statement about a matter of which he knows nothing whatever. ~ Ch. 8

* The dinner was the best style of women's-magazine art, whereby the salad was served in hollowed apples, and everything but the invincible fried chicken resembled something else. ~ Ch. 8

* '''For many minutes, for many hours, for a bleak eternity, he lay awake, shivering, reduced to primitive terror, comprehending that he had won freedom, and wondering what he could do with anything so unknown and so embarrassing as freedom.''' ~ Ch. 9

* They all had the same ideas and expressed them always with the same ponderous and brassy assurance. If it was not Babbitt who was delivering any given verdict, at least he was beaming on the chancellor who did deliver it. ~ Ch. 10

* Men who had made five thousand, year before last, and ten thousand last year, were urging on nerve-yelping bodies and parched brains so that they might make twenty thousand this year; and the men who had broken down immediately after making their twenty thousand dollars were hustling to catch trains, to hustle through the vacations which the hustling doctors had ordered. ~ Ch. 12

* The content of his theology was that there was a supreme being who had tried to make us perfect, but presumably had failed; that if one was a Good Man he would go to a place called Heaven... Upon this theology he rarely pondered. The kernel of his practical religion was that it was respectable, and beneficial to one's business, to be seen going to services; that the church kept the Worst Elements from being still worse; and that the pastor's sermons, however dull they might seem at the time of taking, yet had a voodooistic power which 'did a fellow good — kept him in touch with higher things.' ~ Ch. 16

* She did her work with the thoroughness of mind which reveres details and never quite understands them. ~ Ch. 18

* '''It came to him merely to run away was folly, because he could never run away from himself.''' ~ Ch. 25

* They were newly rich contractors who, having bought houses, motors, hand-painted pictures, and gentlemanliness, were now buying a refined ready-made philosophy. It had been a tossup with them whether to buy New Thought, Christian Science, or a good standard high-church model of Episcopalianism. ~ Ch. 30

* He heard them whispering — whispering... The independence seeped out of him and he walked the streets alone, afraid of men's cynical eyes and the incessant hiss of whispering. ~ Ch. 32

* All of them perceived that American Democracy did not imply any equality of wealth, but did demand a wholesome sameness of thought, dress, painting, morals, and vocabulary. ~ Ch. 34

* He was worried lest during his late discontent he had imperiled his salvation. He was not quite sure there was a Heaven to be attained, but Dr. John Jennison said there was, and Babbitt was not going to take a chance. ~ Ch. 34

===''Arrowsmith'' (1925) ===

* The driver of the wagon swaying through forest and swamp of the Ohio wilderness was a ragged girl of fourteen. ~ Ch. 1, First lines

* It is not a snobbish rich-man's college, devoted to leisurely nonsense. It is the property of the people of the state, and what they want — or what they are told they want — is a mill to turn out men and women who will lead moral lives, play bridge, drive good cars, be enterprising in business, and occasionally mention books, though they are not expected to have time to read them. It is a Ford Motor Factory, and if its products rattle a little, they are beautifully standardized, with perfectly interchangeable parts. ~ Ch 2

* He was permitted, without restriction, to speak of himself as immoral, agnostic and socialistic, so long as it was universally known that he remained pure, Presbyterian, and Republican. ~ Ch. 2

* '''In the study of the profession to which he had looked forward all his life he found irritation and vacuity as well as serene wisdom; he saw no one clear path to Truth but a thousand paths to a thousand truths far-off and doubtful.''' ~ Ch. 2

* Gentlemen, the most important part of living is not the living but the pondering upon it. And the most important part of experimentation is not doing the experiment but making notes, ve-ry accurate ''quantitative'' notes — in ink. I am told that a great many clever people feel they can keep notes in their heads. I have often observed with pleasure that such persons do not have heads in which to keep their notes. This iss very good, because thus the world never sees their results and science is not encumbered with them. ~ Gottlieb, Ch. 4

* '''There was much conversation, most of which sounded like the rest of it.''' ~ Ch. 14

* Like all ardent agnostics, Martin was a religious man. ~ Ch. 16

* It is one of the major tragedies that nothing is more discomforting than the hearty affection of the Old Friends who never were friends. ~ Ch. 20

* He preached to himself, as Max Gottlieb had once preached to him, the loyalty of dissent, the faith of being very doubtful, the gospel of not bawling gospels, the wisdom of admitting the probable ignorance of one's self and of everybody else, and the energetic acceleration of a Movement for going very slow. ~ Ch 21

* Pickerbaugh apparently believed that this research would take six weeks; Martin had hoped to do it in two years; and with the present interruptions it would require two hundred. ~ Ch. 21

* He still had a fragment of his boyhood belief that congressmen were persons of intelligence and importance. ~ Ch. 22

* '''I must say I'm not very fond of oratory that's so full of energy it hasn't any room for facts.''' ~ Martin, Ch. 22

* It is not known whether Martin ever completely accepted as a gentleman-scholar the Clay Tredgold who was devoted to everything about astronomy except studying it. ~ Ch. 22

* She had called Martin a 'lie-hunter,' a 'truth-seeker.' They decided now that most people who call themselves 'truth-seekers' — persons who scurry about chattering of Truth as though it were a tangible separable thing, like houses or salt or bread — did not so much desire to find Truth as to cure their mental itch. In novels, these truth-seekers quested the 'secret of life' in laboratories which did not seem to be provided with Bunsen flames or reagents; or they went, at great expense and much discomfort from hot trains and undesirable snakes, to Himalayan monasteries, to learn from unaseptic sages that the Mind can do all sort of edifying things if one will but spend thirty or forty years in eating rice and gazing on one's navel. To these high matters Martin responded, 'Rot!' He insisted that there is no Truth but only many truths; that Truth is not a colored bird to be chased among the rocks and captured by its tail, but a skeptical attitude toward life. He insisted that no one could expect more than, by stubbornness or luck, to have the kind of work he enjoyed and an ability to become better acquainted with the facts of that work than the average job-holder. ~ Ch. 25

* ''Men of measured merriment! Damn the great executives, the men of measured merriment, damn the men with careful smiles, damn the men that run the shops, oh, damn their measured merriment, the men with measured merriment, oh, damn their measured merriment, and DAMN their careful smiles!'' ~ Ch. 25

* You have curiosity and you are stubborn. You do not accept rules. Therefore I t'ink you will either make a very good scientist or a very bad one, and if you are bad enough, you will be popular with the rich ladies who rule this city, New York, and you can gif lectures for a living or even become, if you get to be plausible enough, a college president. So anyvay, it will be interesting. ~ Gottlieb, Ch. 26

* '''Perhaps I am a crank, Martin. There are many who hate me. There are plots against me — oh, you t'ink I imagine it, but you shall see! I make many mistakes. But one thing I keep always pure: the religion of a scientist.''' To be a scientist — it is not just a different job, so that a man should choose between being a scientist and being an explorer or a bond-salesman or a physician or a king or a farmer. It is a tangle of ver-y obscure emotions, like mysticism, or wanting to write poetry; it makes its victim all different from the good normal man. '''The normal man, he does not care much what he does except that he should eat and sleep and make love. But the scientist is intensely religious — he is so religious that he will not accept quarter-truths, because they are an insult to his faith. He wants that everything should be subject to inexorable laws. He is equal opposed to the capitalists who t'ink their silly money-grabbing is a system, and to liberals who t'ink man is not a fighting animal; he takes both the American booster and the European aristocrat, and he ignores all their blithering. Ignores it! All of it! He hates the preachers who talk their fables, but he iss not too kindly to the anthropologists and historians who can only make guesses, yet they have the nerf to call themselves scientists! Oh, yes, he is a man that all nice good-natured people should naturally hate!''' ~ Gottlieb, Ch. 26

* '''He is the only real revolutionary, the authentic scientist, because he alone knows how liddle he knows. He must be heartless. He lives in a cold, clear light. Yet dis is a funny t'ing: really, in private, he is not cold nor heartless — so much less cold than the Professional Optimists.''' ~ Gottlieb, Ch. 26

* They've worked out elaborate charts classifying all intellectual occupations and interests, with the methods and materials and tools, and especially the goals — the aims, the ideals, the moral purposes — that are suited to each of them. Really tremendous! Why, a musician or an engineer, for example, could look at his chart and tell accurately whether he was progressing fast enough, at his age, and if not, just what his trouble was, and the remedy. ~ Ch. 40

===''Elmer Gantry'' (1927)===

* Elmer Gantry was drunk. He was eloquently drunk, lovingly and pugnaciously drunk.
** First lines

* He was born to be a senator. He never said anything important, and he always said it sonorously.

* He had, in fact, got everything from the church and Sunday School, except, perhaps, any longing whatever for decency and kindness and reason.

* Though Frank Shallard might have come to admire pictures, great music, civilized furniture, he had been trained to regard them as worldly, and to content himself with art which 'presented a message,' to regard 'Les Miserables' as superior because the bishop was a kind man, and 'The Scarlet Letter' as a poor book because the heroine was sinful and the author didn't mind.

* '''The grateful savants had accepted, and they were spending the rest of their lives reading fifteenth-hand opinions, taking pleasant naps, and drooling out to yawning students the anemic and wordy bookishness which they called learning.'''

* His reasoning had been introverted, turned from an examination of men as mammals and devoted to a sorrow that sinful and aching souls should not more readily seek the security of a mystic process known as Conviction, Repentance, and Salvation, which he was assured by the noblest and most literate men he had ever known, was guaranteed to cure all woe. His own experience did not absolutely confirm this.

* "Even if some details of dogma aren't true — or even all of 'em — think what a consolation religion and the church are to weak humanity!" "Are they? I wonder! Don't cheerful agnostics, who know they are going to die dead, worry much less than good Baptists, who worry lest their sons and cousins and sweethearts fail to get into the Baptist heaven — or what is even worse, who wonder if they may not have guessed wrong — if God may not be a Catholic, maybe, or a Mormon or Seventh-day Adventist instead of a Baptist, and then they'll go to hell themselves. Consolation? No!"

* It was not her eloquence but her healing of the sick which raised Sharon to such eminence that she promised to become the most renowned evangelist in America. People were tired of eloquence; and the whole evangelist business was limited, since even the most ardent were not likely to be saved more than three of four times. But they could be healed constantly, and of the same disease.

* To one who had never made more than five thousand a year himself, it was inspiring to explain before dozens of popeyed and admiring morons how they could make ten thousand — fifty thousand — a million a year, and all this by the Wonder Power of Suggestion, by Aggressive Personality, by the Divine Rhythm, in fact by merely releasing the Inner Self-shine.

* He had never been sure but that there might be something to the doctrines he had preached as an evangelist. Perhaps God really had dictated every word of the Bible. Perhaps there really was a hell of burning sulphur. Perhaps the Holy Ghost really was hovering around watching him and reporting. But he knew with serenity that all of his New Thoughts, his theosophical utterances, were pure and uncontaminated bunk. No one could deny his theories because none of his theories meant anything. It did not matter what he said, so long as he kept them listening; and he enjoyed the buoyancy of power as he bespelled his classes with long, involved, fruity sentences rhapsodic as perfume advertisements.

* What had he learned? Enough Hebrew and Greek to be able to crawl through the Bible by using lexicons — so that, like all his classmates once they were out of the seminary, he always read it in English. A good many of the more condemnatory texts of the Bible — rather less than the average Holy Roller carpenter-evangelist. The theory that India and Africa have woes because they are not Christianized, but that Christianized Bangor and Des Moines have woes because the devil, a being obviously more potent than omnipotent God, sneaks around counteracting the work of Baptist preachers.

* The Maker of the universe with stars a hundred thousand light-years apart was interested, furious, and very personal about it if a small boy played baseball on Sunday afternoon.

* His text was from Proverbs: "Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins." He seized the sides of the pulpit with his powerful hands, glared at the congregation, decided to look benevolent after all, and exploded: ''"In the hustle and bustle of daily life I wonder how many of us stop to think that in all that is highest and best we are ruled not by even our most up-and-coming efforts but by Love? '''What is Love — the divine Love of which the—the great singer teaches us in Proverbs? It is the rainbow that comes after the dark cloud. It is the morning star and it is also the evening star, those being, as you all so well know, the brightest stars we know. It shines upon the cradle of the little one and when life has, alas, departed, to come no more, you find it still around the quiet tomb. What is it inspires all great men—be they preachers or patriots or great business men? What is it, my brethren, but Love? Ah, it fills the world with melody, with such sacred melodies as we have just indulged in together, for what is music? What, my friends, is music? Ah, what indeed is music but the voice of Love!" '''
** Elmer Gantry, paraphrasing the eloquence of the "atheist" [[Robert G. Ingersoll|Ingersoll]] in his sermon.

* He explained that hatred was low. However, for the benefit of the more leathery and zealous deacons down front, he permitted them to hate all Catholics, all persons who failed to believe in hell and immersion, and all rich mortgage-holders, wantoning in the betraying smiles of scarlet women, each of whom wore silk and in her bejeweled hand held a ruby glass of perfidious wine.

* He was still not at all certain that he was doing any good, aside from providing the drug of religious hope to timorous folk frightened of hell-fire and afraid to walk alone.

* I was brought up to believe that the Christian God wasn't a scared and compromising public servant, but the creator of the whole merciless truth, and I reckon that training spoiled me — I actually took my teachers seriously!

* A proper school should teach nothing but bookkeeping, agriculture, geometry, dead languages made deader by leaving out all the amusing literature, and the Hebrew Bible as interpreted by men superbly trained to ignore contradictions, men technically called "Fundamentalists".

===''It Can't Happen Here'' (1935)===
[[File:Sinclair_Lewis_It_Can't_Happen_Here_1936_theater_poster.jpg|144px|thumb|right|Under a tyranny, most friends are a liability. One quarter of them turn "reasonable" and become your enemies, one quarter are afraid to speak, and one quarter are killed and you die with them. But the blessed final quarter keep you alive.]]

* '''Under a tyranny, most friends are a liability. One quarter of them turn "reasonable" and become your enemies, one quarter are afraid to speak, and one quarter are killed and you die with them. But the blessed final quarter keep you alive.'''

* So debated Doremus, like some hundreds of thousands of other craftsmen, teachers, lawyers, what-not, in some dozens of countries under a dictatorship, who were aware enough to resent the tyranny, conscientious enough not to take its bribes cynically, yet not so abnormally courageous as to go willingly to exile or dungeon or chopping-block — particularly when they "had wives and families to support."

* He was an actor of genius. There was no more overwhelming actor on the stage, in the motion pictures, nor even in the pulpit. He would whirl arms, bang tables, glare from mad eyes, vomit Biblical wrath from a gaping mouth; but he would also coo like a nursing mother, beseech like an aching lover, and in between tricks would coldly and almost contemptuously jab his crowds with figures and facts — figures and facts that were inescapable even when, as often happened, they were entirely incorrect.

===''The God-Seeker'' (1949)===

* Aaron was uncomfortable and a little afraid. This, he thought, is how God might pray to his God. ~ Ch. 1

* Reverend Lucius Fairlow... a mild-spoken young-old man with mild chestnut hair and a mild chestnut mustache and a conservative theology which stuck mildly to the pleasant certainties of God's anger and eternal hellfire. ~ Ch. 2

* Aaron had learned … from Mr. Fairlow's two-hour sermons on ''"The Jealousy of an Angry Jehovah Who Hath Weighed Sinners in the Balance and Found Them Wanting"'',...that God was a torturer who punished small boys for sins they might commit later. ~ Ch. 3

* Good sense from a child was not necessarily contemptible beside foolishness from a grown-up. ~ Ch. 3

* When you think that most of us are doomed by divine grace to roast in hell, to say nothing of mortgages and hail and bad crops and extravagant womenfolks, 'tain't any laughing matter! ~ Ch. 3

* It might be the doing of Satan, in whom Aaron anxiously believed with all of his being except, perhaps, his mind. ~ Ch. 4

* It was of no use. That particular sort of coward and evader he was not, and he lay abed facing all his sins, all his slacknesses, and the merited punishment by a just and angry God. ~ Ch. 5

* Deacon Uriel Gadd was a man of integrity, granite-rough and lichen-coated. The punishment in his rheumatism, clearly sent of God, and the defection of his son Elijah, had weakened him only in making him somewhat less contemptuous of his sentimental son Aaron. All other persons he divided into fools, scoundrels and the blessedly elect, with only himself indisputably in the last class. ~ Ch. 6

* Hours then of blasphemy and fury and debate, all in the theological terms that seem shocking to the literate citizens today, who believe in God but just don't care to mention him or any of the other lowly friends they knew before they went to Yale. ~ Ch. 6

* Everything seemed confused and contradictory, and he longed for one clear command from a divine martinet. ~ Ch. 7

* Maybe he was not a good-enough Christian to get the proper zest out of mortifying his indolent flesh. ~ Ch. 15

* Now we got a lawyer, we got civilization, which I understand to mean that a man has a chance to get rich without working. ~ Ch. 17

* The more the Dakota have to do with the white, the worse. The whites give him whiskey to get his furs and bimeby he don't want to trap so many furst but he want plenty more whiskey. The white traders take his girl, and all he get in swap is a disease. They take his land, and all he get is a leetle annuity so he don't do any work and starve slow. The Indian gets white man's gun an he is drunk and kill his own brother and they call him sinful. That's what he get from the white man— fine kettle, fine gun, fine blanket, the big pox, the small pox and religion. ~ Ch. 20

* Mostly the adult Indians did not wish their children to learn these arts from the emissaries of what they astonishingly considered an alien, false and hostile God. ~ Ch. 21

* As they talked around the fire in the sitting-room, he was embarrassed by the nakedness of their piety. ~ Ch. 22

* When he gets uppity about his supposed learning, I just take it on myself to remind him that God and his angels know almost as much as college professors ~ Ch. 23

*''' He prayed, 'Lord God, let us be the kind of Christians that you would be if you were a Christian'.''' ~ Ch. 24

* Aaron began to learn the Dakota language. Isaac, like a newly ordained Doctor of Philosophy, after years of being nagged into learning, rejoiced to be invited to stand up and look important and teach. He was astonished by his own erudition and by the fact that his class of one did not walk out. ~ Ch. 31

* He fretted that he did not know anything. He sighed, 'I have sought the Kingdom of God a little, the Squire has sought it terribly, but we haven't even a map, and after what I saw this afternoon, I know the Sioux are as barbarous as we are.''' Is it possible that nobody has ever known— that there never has been a completely civilized man, and won't be for another thousand years?''' ~ Ch. 33

* '''Indians, of course, have no 'theology,' and indeed no word for the system of credulity in which the white priests arrange for God, who must be entirely bewildered by it, a series of excuses for his failures.''' ~ Ch. 41

* '''We should adopt Jesus boldly, and send missionaries to explain him to the whites, except that no Indian except one very old and sick and never much good in warfare would be pompous enough to tell alien peoples what he thinks they should believe.''' ~ Ch. 41

* He had unhappily noticed at the mission that when he had most hotly prayed, it had been a way of escaping a decision, of frivolously passing the lot to God. ~ Ch. 50

* '''I've sat at the preachers' feet and listened to them, faithfully, and tried to make myself become what they said I ought to be. I'm through! I do my own thinking now and my own bossing.''' ~ Ch. 51

* '''It did seem sounder to build houses which he could build than to teach children a gospel which he did not altogether understand in a Sioux language which he could not quite speak.''' He reflected, 'If I could put over some kind of equality for Mark Shadrock and Black Wolf, that would be enough heavenly progress for me.' ~ Ch. 53

* '''I don't believe in fear of divine vengeance, and I do believe in justice and equality...''' ~ Ch. 57

* An ugly woodshed that's there, right on the ground, is handsomer to me than a ten-story temple that isn't there. ~ Ch. 57

* '''I have faith in Faith, I have reverence for all true Reverence.''' ~ Ch. 59

==About Sinclair Lewis==

* Sinclair Lewis was a crypto-sentimentalist and a slovenly writer who managed a slight falsification of life in order to move the reader.
** [[James Gould Cozzens]], "Books: The Hermit of Lambertville", ''Time'', 2 September 1957

* I have defined the hundred per cent American as ninety-nine per cent an idiot.
** [[George Bernard Shaw]] on Sinclair Lewis receiving the Nobel Prize (1930)

* '''What was once Sinclair Lewis is buried in no ground.''' Even in life he was fully alive only in his writing. He lives in public libraries from Maine to California, in worn copies in the bookshelves of women from small towns who, in their girlhood, imagined themselves as Carol Kennicotts, and of medical men who, as youths, were inspired by Martin Arrowsmith.
** [[Dorothy Thompson]], his ex-wife, in "The Boy From Sauk Center" in ''The Atlantic'' (November 1960)

* His central characters are the pioneer, the doctor, the scientist, the businessman, and the feminist. The appeal of his best fiction lies in the opposition between his idealistic protagonists and an array of fools, charlatans, and scoundrels - evangelists, editorialists, pseudo-artists, cultists, and boosters.
** Martin Light in ''The Quixotic Vision of Sinclair Lewis'' (1975)

{{Misattributed begin}}

==Misattributed==

* When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
** Many variants of this exist, but the earliest known incident of such a comment appears to be a partial quote from James Waterman Wise, Jr., reported in a 1936 issue of ''The Christian Century'' that ''in a recent address here before the liberal John Reed club said that Hearst and Coughlin are the two chief exponents of fascism in America. If fascism comes, he added, it will not be identified with any "shirt" movement, nor with an "insignia," but it will probably be'' ''"'''wrapped up in the American flag and heralded as a plea for liberty and preservation of the constitution.'''"''<ref>The Christian Century, Volume 53, Feb 5, 1936, p. 245</ref>
** Another early quote is that of [[Halford E. Luccock]], in Keeping Life Out of Confusion (1938): '''When and if fascism comes to America it will not be labeled "made in Germany"; it will not be marked with a swastika; it will not even be called fascism; it will be called, of course, "Americanism."''' [[w:Harrison Salisbury|Harrison Evans Salisbury]] in 1971 remarked about Lewis: "Sinclair Lewis aptly predicted in ''It Can't Happen Here'' that if fascism came to America it would come wrapped in the flag and whistling 'The Star Spangled Banner.'" <ref>p. 29, The Many Americas Shall Be One, Harrison Evans Salisbury. Published by W. W. Norton, 1971.</ref>
<references/>
{{Misattributed end}}

==External links==
{{Wikipedia}}
{{Commonscat-inline}}
{{Wikisource author}}
* [http://www.english.ilstu.edu/separry/sinclairlewis/default.html The Sinclair Lewis Society]
* [http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/slewis.htm Brief bio]
* [http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1930/lewis-autobio.html Nobel Prize bio]
* [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/authrec?fk_authors=278 Online editions] at Project Gutenberg
* [http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/LewBabb.html Babbit] Online edition at The University of Virginia

{{DEFAULTSORT:Lewis, Sinclair}}
[[Category:Authors]]
[[Category:Minnesotans]]
[[Category:Nobel Prize winners]]
[[Category:1950s deaths]]

[[ca:Sinclair Lewis]]
[[cs:Sinclair Lewis]]
[[gl:Sinclair Lewis]]
[[it:Sinclair Lewis]]
[[he:סינקלר לואיס]]
[[nl:Sinclair Lewis]]
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[[pt:Sinclair Lewis]]

Wikiquote:Village pump

2014-04-03T09:24:26Z

FDMS4: /* vandalism */ new section

__NEWSECTIONLINK__
{{Wikiquote:Village pump/Header}}

== Scientology ==

What does the community make of this edit by [[user:Cirt]] on the [[Scientology]] page?

These ten quotations (actually eleven entries, but one is a duplicate) only mention Scientology tangentially, and are all primarily about est or Werner Erhard and seem to have been cherry-picked to give a misleading impression that there is a far stronger connection to Scientology than existed in reality.

For example

*" The founder of EST, a former member of the Scientology church called Werner Erhard..."
*"*Est (Erhard Seminars Training) has been a singularly successful synthetic derivation, which has itself gone on to generate new movements, transmitting aspects of Scientology thought or practice far from the domain of L. Ron Hubbard."
*"Rupert (1992) discusses a range of cases... such as the human potential movement, est, or Scientology."
*"...and est/Forum was a repackaging of Scientology by Werner Erhard,..."
*"Werner Erhard's highly successful est cult is partly derived from Scientology."

etc.

The fact of the matter is that Erhard did a few Scientology courses in the space of five months in early 1970, at a time when he was avidly investigating a vast range of philosophies and disciplines, but that is not the impression that a reader of this page would be left with.

Does it not reflect negatively on the reputation of Wikiquote to have the Scientology page commandeered to serve as a coatrack to propagate misleading information about other organizations and individuals?

It may be relevant that Cirt has an extensive history of POV-pushing on these subjects on wikipedia, and in fact was de-sysopped and topic-banned for exactly that behavior [[w:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cirt and Jayen466#Remedies|there]]. After that, he concentrated on other wikimedia projects (where he has undoubtedly done a good deal of great work), but perhaps he cannot resist the temptation to return to his obsessions? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
:'''Reply:''' {{done}}. I've gone ahead and voluntarily taken the initiative to move those above-mentioned quotes to the talk page, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Scientology&diff=1654965&oldid=1643592 DIFF]. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to {{user|MLKLewis}}. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I do not feel that Cirt's response fully adresses my concerns. Although he has removed the five items that I listed above by way of example, he has left the other five equally questionable entries on the page. And what is the justification for inserting the removed material into the Talk page, which is meant to be for discussions about how to improve the Topic page?

Furthermore, is not the intense activity this last October at this page:
https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Landmark_Forum&offset=&limit=100&action=history
a further example of Cirt's attempting to hijack Wikiquote to propagate a personal viewpoint, an activity for which he was sanctioned at Wikipedia? --[[User:MLKLewis|MLKLewis]] ([[User talk:MLKLewis|talk]]) 07:34, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{user|MLKLewis}}, I'm glad you've acknowledged that I went ahead and removed entries from that page. If you participate in talk page discussion on the individual page I hope we can come to an amicable resolution together about this. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 06:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== Quotes about notable social implications of technology ==

I would like to add quotes about particular scientific developments to Wikiquote. Is this ok?[[User:Open Research|Open Research]] ([[User talk:Open Research|talk]]) 13:32, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

:It should be perfectly fine as long as the subject fulfills [[WQ:N|our notability guideline]]. As a general rule of thumb, if there's a Wikipedia page, it's notable enough. Is there a particular development you want to add? [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 01:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

== Delete (not just lock) simple.wikiquote.org? ==

The simple-English wikiquote project at http://simple.wikiquote.org has been locked for some time, but it's still visible on the web, so it hasn't been fully closed. The simple English version of (apparently) 591 pages taints the whole project by making it look infantile - an impression reinforced by all those pages on the main site that use kindergarten-style images of galaxies and flames to illustrate abstract ideas. Isn't it time to remove it? [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 21:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
: Though there are clearly many differences of opinion between us on many matters, here is something I believe we can agree upon. I never really liked the idea much, but for a time it was clear that at least a few others did, and I am usually loathe to suppress efforts of others needlessly. The quality of their productions never did find broad appeal, and their enthusiasms were eventually dismissed, derided and suppressed by others, and the project killed. As it seems to be a thoroughly defunct site, I believe its presence on the web should probably be removed, and would support any efforts to have this done, within whatever guidelines the Wikimedia Foundation have developed for doing so. ''R.I.P. Simple Wikiquote. So it goes…'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:55, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I also agree that it ought to be deleted. About three years ago, after the [[m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Simple English Wikiquote (3)|decision to "close" the project]] but before official policy for closures was adopted, I [[m:User talk:SPQRobin#Merging simple.wikiquote into en.wikiquote|discussed the final disposition]] of the ''WikiParaphrase'' project with a LangCom member, but I did not initiate formal proceedings at the time. If someone would like to do so, the official venue is at [[m:Proposals for closing projects]], and is governed by [[m:Closing projects policy]] under the auspices of [[m:Langcom|LangCom]] delegated by the Foundation Board. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:QoDList]] ==

This new template transcludes {{tl|QoDBar}} and is able to output a list of all Quotes Of The Day for a given month, via [[Module:QoD]]. So [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 2014]] and such wouldn't have to be handled manually. Do you support implementing it practically? --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 07:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
: It is not immediately obvious to me how this works. Viewing the new [[Template:QoDList]], the output of "#invoke:QoD|list" is null. I am guessing, from examining the code of [[Module:QoD]], that it depends on the context where the template is transcluded. Could you provide a sample page exemplifying use of the new template in a context where the module output is non-null, and consider fleshing out some documentation or usage notes at [[Template:QoDList/doc]] and/or [[Module:QoD/doc]]? Thanks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]]: it depends on the page, but the month-year pair can also be specified manually (as <nowiki>{{#invoke:QoD|list|June 2013}}</nowiki>). You can see {{tl|QoDList}} in action on [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013]] ([{{fullurl:Wikiquote:Quote of the day/December 2013|diff=1662309&oldid=1646908}} {{int:diff}}]). I also added some docs, feel free to edit them. --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 15:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

== Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James ??? ==

[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=William_James&oldid=1664112&diff=prev DIFF] = Nineteen (19) images re-added at William James.

Does this community think this is too many images for a page?

Does the community feel this will cramp down on loading time for our readers, discouraging them from viewing pages on Wikiquote?

Does the community feel this will make load time difficult for editors, turning them off from editing Wikiquote?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
:This member of this community does NOT think "this is too many images for a page." '''The VERY highly used Wikimedia Commons places FAR more images on a standard page.''' I can appreciate that some people who do not have fast connections (for whatever reasons this might be the case) will not easily appreciate ''many'' of the pages on the internet with graphics. Yet I do not believe that these relative few who do not use some auxiliary browsers set for faster browsing without images, to hasten the time of downloading pages without such graphics as are quite standard on MOST web-pages today, should keep our pages permanently crippled to a highly constrained standards which might have made some sense 10 years ago, but are hardly appropriate today. '''I believe nothing is more likely to be "turning anyone off" from editing Wikiquote than such bossiness with constraints as a ''very few'' people have been increasingly pushing here in recent years — by which they can control more of what others can or cannot do, and reducing the options available to others here in ways I have frankly found disgusting and contemptible, and often extremely hypocritical — and I am quite ready to make plain some of the reasons why in the coming months.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Whatever the merits or faults of the policy, it's clear that this part of it has frequently been ignored by some editors:

::"'''Dispute resolution''' An image that is not a literal representation of the subject of the page may be removed by any editor who believes it to be inappropriate. Thereafter, it should not be re-added without first obtaining consensus on the article talk page."

Perhaps it might be better to follow established and unambiguous policy rather than ignore it merely because (apparently) an editor doesn't like it? - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

:: '''I have sometimes engaged in [[w:direct action|direct action]] of rather mild and moderate [[civil disobedience]] in accord with the principles of [[Justice]] and [[Liberty]] that others seem quite satisfied to give little more than a lot of shallow and safe "lip service" to.''' In this particular case, I view "the merits or faults of the policy" that was devised by a few people some months ago as nothing more or less than thoughtlessly or deliberately giving free reign to those most eager to '''[[Censorship|censor]]''', VANDALIZE and remove any traces of MANY of the IDEAS and ''efforts'' of others to make generally important points and generally appealing presentations of the quotes here.''' I am actually inclined to use far harsher terms, but restrain myself for now.''' Even at the start I recognized these proposed "rules" as contemptible and unworthy of any significant respect, as simply devices providing ''implicit'' sanction and approval to the most narrow-minded, intolerant and malicious of people, most eager to denigrate the contributions of others, to destroy as rapidly as they could, and with VERY little consideration, what others might have taken months or years of careful consideration to gradually produce. '''I truly consider the fact that so inanely destructive and foully ''[[fascist]]'' an "ideal" and ''practice'' as those INNATELY unjust "policies" represent have not been recognized as such by others as simply disgraceful.''' Such an atmosphere created by the increasing arrogance and smug intolerance of those who seek to control and constrain others, and the bafflement and disgust of those who wish to contribute in the spirit of liberty advocated by the greatest of people, and which was one of the foundational principles of the wiki software, and the Wikimedia projects themselves is what I believe far more people than myself find appalling and sometimes discouraging.

:: Prior to the above statement I was going to make this relevant point: A standard setting at Wikimedia Commons, which is the source of all the imagery available to us, provides 200 image thumbnails to a page, and such is what I get quite swiftly when I click on '''[[commons:Category:Nature|Category:Nature]]'''. This once could mean a very long download time, but certainly does not with most users who are likely to do much browsing on the internet at all today. I certainly do not plan to use that many on any article page here — but to make large pages with even dozens of images on them, which are relatively rare and probably always will be, seem incredibly burdensome to most users is something I believe is ludicrous. I would probably spend more time saying a bit more, but I have to be leaving now, and am already running a bit late on important matters. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::I agree with the comment by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. However with regards to this particular page I will leave it to others to hopefully take action here regarding the violations of [[Wikiquote:Image use policy]] that have taken place, as noted by {{user|Macspaunday}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

== Block ==

Please block [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User:YODO_(You_Only_Die_Once) User:YODO (You Only Die Once)], this user is obviously immature, one example is stating in one of his edit summaries: ''Get a life you sockpuppet!''. I spoke with DanielTom at Meta. I will be here to revert his vandal-edits. To be honest, I don't care if I engage in an edit war. The administrators here are not very active. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Goldenburg111]] ([[User talk:Goldenburg111|talk]]) 18:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:Looks like no admin is around right now, so I've blocked that user for one day. Please review the action and take (if needed) further action. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 20:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

:I yet blocked another user: [[User:Tell me about it!]]. As above, review the action taken and adjust it as you seem it fits. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 23:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks, both have been re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

:::Personally, I would do a 3 month block, but that's me. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 23:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks, I just issued another block on {{user|DarknessFalls74}}. As with the two above, please review the action taken and adjust it as needed. -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

:Thanks, the user is re-blocked for 1 month. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback ==

I am requesting rollback permission is so I can easily rollback vandal edits. I also "participated in the [[User:YODO (You Only Die Once)]] vandal attack", and it was pretty hard undoing his edits and I usually got into edit conflicts. Clarifying that Rollback Rights are given to users to easily revert '''pure''' vandalism. I just tagged a few spam pages for deletion and reverted a vandal-only account's action of a page recently. I am also a rollbacker on the Simple English Wiktionary, and of course, I would be in big trouble if I was lying. I am an Anti-Vandal Worker at Meta and Wikipedia. I am also an admin and bureaucrat on the Orian Test Wiki and admin at the Test Wiki. I am also, at Wikia, currently an admin on 10 wikis and crat on 5 of those wikis. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:The best thing for you to do would be to request Adminship at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] so that the merits of your request can be discussed and determined. My sense is that you have made many positive edits and reverted plenty of vandalism. The only question might be the relatively short period of time in which you have been editing here, but that may or may not be a large stumbling block. In the end, it would be best to formally request it and let the discussion begin. Good luck. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]])
::Okay, thanks UDScott, one question, can I take this subject off? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I would just leave it and maybe direct readers to the [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] page, should they wish to contribute to the discussion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
::::@UDScott: I feel it is unwise to encourage Golden to run for adminship so prematurely, as he wouldn't stand a chance (despite his best intentions), and the result could upset him. @Golden: even if you don't have rollback rights, you can still revert vandalism. I know you want to help out, but please try to be patient. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::@DanielTom: As quoted by Jimbo Wales, "no big deal". --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume that Goldenburg111 does not realise that on WQ, only admins can be granted rollback.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:(Is this true? Abramsky, what do your <s>elf</s> admin eyes [[Special:UserRights|see]]?) [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 16:03, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
:: It is not a separately grantable user right at Wikiquote: there is no "Rollbacker" user group like at Wikipedia. Rollback is included in the rights of the Administrator group, as shown at [[Special:ListGroupRights]]. (The corresponding configuration at Wikipedia is much more complex and [[Bureaucracy|bureaucratic]].) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Request for comment on Commons: Should Wikimedia support MP4 video? ==

''I apologize for this message being only in English. Please translate it if needed to help your community.''

The Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Multimedia|multimedia team]] seeks community guidance on a proposal to support the [[w:MP4|MP4 video format]]. This digital video standard is used widely around the world to record, edit and watch videos on mobile phones, desktop computers and home video devices. It is also known as [[w:MP4|H.264/MPEG-4 or AVC]].

Supporting the MP4 format would make it much easier for our users to view and contribute video on Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects -- and video files could be offered in dual formats on our sites, so we could continue to support current open formats (WebM and Ogg Theora).

However, MP4 is a patent-encumbered format, and using a proprietary format would be a departure from our current practice of only supporting open formats on our sites -- even though the licenses appear to have acceptable legal terms, with only a small fee required.

We would appreciate your guidance on whether or not to support MP4. Our Request for Comments presents views both in favor and against MP4 support, based on opinions we’ve heard in our discussions with community and team members.

[[commons:Commons:Requests for comment/MP4 Video|Please join this RfC -- and share your advice]].

All users are welcome to participate, whether you are active on Commons, Wikipedia, other Wikimedia project -- or any site that uses content from our free media repository.

You are also welcome to join tomorrow's [[m:IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours|Office hours chat on IRC]], this Thursday, January 16, at 19:00 UTC, if you would like to discuss this project with our team and other community members.

We look forward to a constructive discussion with you, so we can make a more informed decision together on this important topic. [[m:User:Keegan (WMF)|Keegan (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:Keegan (WMF)|talk]]) 06:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


: I am not sure anyone here is qualified to translate from English to Quotish, but if somebody wants to give it a try.... ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:45, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Global sysops ==

Hello Wikiquote community!

As you may have seen, I recently blocked some accounts on this project in my capacity as [[m:Stewards|steward]]. In the light of the fact that this project has only few really active sysops, I'd like to suggest you to allow [[m:Global sysops|global sysops]] acting on your project. Those users are being elected on meta to help small projects with the removal of vandalism etc. They're generally supposed to not act like a normal locally elected admin and will mostly only act in emergencies. I could imagine that this would help here from time to time. While I'm technically able to issue blocks or delete page (just as any other steward), I feel rather uncomfortable doing this, as I'd rather see that done by local people.

I could very well imagine that this would help here. Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed and the same would be needed to remove them at any point when needed. Please take your time and consider this idea carefully. If you've any further questions, please feel free to ping me. Kind regards, -[[User:Barras|Barras]] ([[User talk:Barras|talk]]) 19:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:Barras, why would you feel uncomfortable blocking obvious rampant vandals? I agree with you, that it should be preferably done "by local people", but global sysops aren't "local" either, and I don't understand how global sysops would do a better job in answering emergencies and stopping rampant vandals than stewards do (besides, as far as I know, there are many more stewards than global sysops). Recent vandalism spree aside (which was done by sockpuppets that need to be checked and blocked), I believe the ideal solution is to have more ''local'' active admins, which is why I suggested [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] to run for adminship again. (At least that would be my preference.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
::Stewards can't watch everything, simply put. Global sysops help fill in the gaps of steward coverage, which I believe was one reason the group was created in the first place.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] ([[User talk:Jasper Deng|talk]]|[[:m:User talk:Jasper Deng|meta]]) 04:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:I would support adding GS, but I have a COI as I am one myself. ;) See my contributions for all the stuff I could have blocked if this wiki were opted-in. Of course, it's up to the community. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Per PiRSquared17. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Smaller projects should always opt in for Global Sysops, since it is not that simple to get more active local admins. Should the en.q community start a discussion about opting in, I would support (and I have no COI). --[[User:Ricordisamoa|Ricordi]][[User talk:Ricordisamoa|samoa]] 21:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Global sysops cheapen local adminship, and only in cases of the utmost necessity (e.g. really small wikis) should they be opted-in. I, for one, tend to think that any help fighting vandalism should be welcomed. Unfortunately, judging by recent comments on a local unrelated discussion, we can't even expect stewards to stay neutral, let alone global sysops. There are further problems, related to WQ's specific policies, which I'm not even going to get into. I would like to highlight, though, that the description of global sysops as "''highly trusted users''" should make any thinking person suspicious. Just when did we elect these global sysops? I don't remember voting for any of them myself. Sure, there are some very well-meaning, good users in this group, for example [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|Érico Júnior Wouters]] and [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]]. But I can also see a couple of names I very strongly ''distrust'', of cruel unhelpful people whose apparent job it is to collect hats, and whom I very much doubt would ''ever'' be elected local sysops via normal process. That's my warning, for what it's worth (not much). I think GS should only be opted in after a strong consensus for it amongst our established admins. (I doubt such a consensus will ever be achieved, but who knows.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Global sysopship (along with global rollback and some other global groups) is requested on [[m:SRGP]]. For example, [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_PiRSquared17|my request]], [[m:Steward_requests/Global_permissions/2012-12#Global_sysop_for_.C3.89rico_J.C3.BAnior_Wouters|Érico]]'s request. Anyone can comment on a candidate. Global sysops ''only ever act'' (in theory) when the request is uncontroversial (such as spam/vandalism) and no local admins are around to deal with it. Does that answer some of your questions? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 16:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Well, as you know, Meta elections are kind of a joke. People who'd have no chance of being elected admins at Wikipedia again get elected global sysops... And although it is said that if we opt-in, we can then also opt-out, it's more of a one-way street, as I think it would be very difficult to establish a consensus to opt-out afterwards. Obviously global sysops can't be locally desysopped, so we need to be careful. Your description of what they can do seems misleading. It appears to me that global sysops can act without being requested, and they don't just revert obvious vandalism, but also engage in "routine maintenance" (their purpose per policy), which in turn means they, who are not familiar with Wikiquote's policies, may end up deleting pages they shouldn't. And again, it's not as if we can't ask the help of stewards to block vandals in case of emergency. It also seems to me that Wikiquote is actually [[m:Global sysops#Scope|out of scope]] for GS, and I would very much like to hear what our local admins think of this proposal, though I doubt they will be so blunt as me in saying that it threatens Wikiquote's independence. I still think the solution for Wikiquote is through local admins, and if global sysops are so eager to help (*cough*), they can go through the normal process and be elected here. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::: To clear up a couple misunderstandings:
:::# [[m:Global sysops|Global sysops]] are not elected. They are appointed by Stewards after taking public comment. They serve at the pleasure of the Stewards, assisting with their workload by handling routine tasks that do not require more advanced rights.
:::# Wikiquote is not out of scope. Any project can opt in or opt out: the default described in the policy applies only to projects that do not opt either way.
::: Whether you trust the Stewards to appoint people who can be trusted to respect the bounds of their role, whether you trust the Stewards to step in if someone exceeds those bounds, that is your call. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Global sysops perform routine maintenance. That is their purpose. In practice, this amounts to spam, vandalism/long-term abuse, and noncontroversial routine requests. If enwikiquote is opted in, GS will surely respect local policies, but you can't expect us to read every single wiki's policies before acting. At least I haven't (but I do usually look at the deletion reason dropdown to see if they have a similar "speedy deletion" criterion to what I will use. I almost never block.). Usually the stuff we do is completely noncontroversial, and we tend only to act in emergencies or when local admins are unavailable. [[m:Special:WikiSets/7]]: enwikiquote and plwikiquote are the only Wikiquotes opted out of GS help. Ningauble is correct that any project can opt in or out. The scope on Meta is just the default. Also: being a global sysop is much easier and less complicated than being a local admin on (English or another large) Wikipedia, as you mentioned. Global sysops ''only'' do noncontroversial maintenance tasks, whereas an admin on enwiki is expected to be able to determine consensus, deal with private matters, act in controversial cases or in drama like ANI, etc. In fact becoming a steward might [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chenzw/Reports/Draubb&diff=prev&oldid=7138137 be easier] than having a successful enwiki RfA. Do you think [//meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Global_permissions&oldid=7271149#Global_sysop_for_JurgenNL this] ongoing RFGS is a joke? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::Indeed, I'm glad to see two global sysops (Rschen and yourself) admitting that becoming a ''steward'' (=> access to IPs) could be much easier than getting ''adminship'' – good heavens! am I the only one who thinks something is terribly wrong here? If this is true of stewards, it must be even more so of global sysops, and I might add I personally am shocked and offended to see that someone like Rschen is a global sysop. Opting in will be something of a historical moment for WQ, because in truth there is no turning back, even if ''theoretically'' we could opt out again – who would then be willing to oppose global sysops?, how would we ever reach that consensus? In any case, those were just a few observations before our admins gave their opinions, and as they apparently don't seem to mind GS being opted in, it might just be that you'll have your wish. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 00:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::If you're going to attack me, at least get my quote right - I said that it is much easier than getting adminship ''on en.wikipedia''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 19:40, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Not sure, who "attacks" who. I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Daniel_Tom%C3%A9&diff=559458856&oldid=559445353 this]. Pretending that a public rename is a sock, just to defame my real name, that seems to me much more of an "attack" than my saying I am offended that you are are in any position of responsibility. I see you keep trying to collect hats, and that after recently failing to get CU on Wikipedia, you are now trying to get ''stewardship'' at Meta. What a disgrace. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Who is attacking who is you. What Rschen did at that particular diff is standard practise at enwiki, if a user is deemed a sock, they are tagged. The fact the account existed even a rename means the account exists ergo, a sockpuppet. The fact Rschen failed to get CU is like me failing to get rollback here and then asking for Bureaucrat at Wikidata, they have 0% relation. Also your description of Rschen actually willing to help out Wikimedia is the disgrace here. Good faith volunteers deserve credit, not defamatory comments. Now that is said, get back to doing something constructive unlike we've seen at metawiki. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::: The guy who admits to never editing articles tells me to go do "something constructive". Why do you show up here, just to share your ignorance on the difference between socks and public renames? I challenge ''you'' to try and make a single edit to an article before commenting here again and embarrassing yourself further. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:06, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::Whether I edit articles now or not is '''my''' choice. Nothing for you to comment on simply because you're losing the 'but mom, Rschen is the one being mean!' battle. Oh and yes, maybe I don't edit articles but hey, I am constructive. I do SWMT work, did a month of administrator work at a small wiki and do some-what active work on Wikidata. And on enwiki, I active help new users get accounts. See, I give people accounts not create them for myself and then abuse them. Now, as I said, be constructive anyway you want except through derogatory comment at Rschen and arguing about how people follow polices when dealing with clearly abusive users. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::: You still haven't made even 1 edit to articles, and most likely never will. Calling me abusive doesn't count as an article edit. You have nothing to contribute to Wikiquote. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:38, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Why don't '''both''' of you stop? Instead of bickering? You guys are acting like children here! I would suggest both of you stop this pointless discussion. Wikiquote's Village Pump is not for both of you to bicker about pointless stuff. I expect better from both of you. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:35, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::::Just shut up about god damn editing of articles. I am not violating policies by not doing it. Last comment here. Future comments I'd like at my talk page. If not, I'll just move them over. Peace. [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 22:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Did I hit a nerve? Do you feel embarrassed for never editing articles? I certainly would. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:47, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
* I would not be averse to opting in. Having been unable to give as much time to Wikiquote myself in recent months as in previous years, no longer being able to review the entire RC log every day, I have a sense that a lot of things are slipping through the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
*: ''Non sequitur'', as global sysops can ''already'' patrol recent changes, just like any other user; problem is, most of them ''just don't bother to'', and this is very unlikely to change even if we opt-in. (What would change is, someone who already patrols recent changes could notify them at Meta of vandal attacks, and they would then be able to step in and block the vandals. But if you think that global sysops are going to start magically reviewing every change to articles once they are opted-in, you are just fooling yourself.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 13:18, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*:: What follows from my observation is that I believe a lot of things are slipping through the cracks, more things than when I was patrolling more. I did not say, and it does not follow (''non sequitur'') that global sysops would patrol in the manner that I used to do, nor that nothing would slip through the cracks. Things have always slipped through the cracks anyway. What would follow is more [[w:Hans Brinker, or The Silver Skates#Popular culture: the legend of the boy and the dike|little Dutch boys]] plugging more of the cracks. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:10, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*::I'm sure [[m:SWMT]] will monitor enwikiquote, if it doesn't already. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:21, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
*:::It does since yesterday (a contributor from this wiki requested it to be added on IRC). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 20:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
* I agree. I think the benefits of having off-project admins able to step in and stop vandalism outweigh any downside. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
*: These global sysops can already revert vandalism, they just don't do it, because they don't patrol WQ's recent changes. They would only be of help in case someone who does patrol it should ask them to block rampant vandals. But for this there already are stewards, who are more in number than global sysops. Opting in will be a historically bad decision. WQ is almost the only wiki standing independent, like a diamond in the desert, but you seem to be willing to trade its independence for nothing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*Agree with these comments by {{u|Ningauble}} and {{u|BD2412}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone want to close this? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
* Late here, but I'm also in support of opting in here.  [[User:Hazard-SJ|Hazard]] [[User talk:Hazard-SJ|SJ]]  20:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am not adamantly hostile to the idea, but I really have not as yet examined the issues involved much, and certainly would not wish to rush into opting in. As there is at least one prominent editor who I generally respect who seems adamantly opposed, I remain reluctant to support it at this point. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*:That's fine, take your time. There's no rush to decide whether you want GS or not, obviously. I just wanted to see if anyone else would comment. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

* In the light of the recent events concerning the request to a global block, I am far from convinced that global sysops and their supporters can overcome the cultural differences. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 22:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Global sysops have nothing to do with global blocking or locking. That is a steward thing. Yes, stewards and global sysops have some things in common, but really there is a huge difference. However, I can see how this would change your opinion of Meta, cross-wiki maintenance, etc. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
* I personally don't feel this wiki has a need for a GS opt-in and looking at [[Special:ActiveUsers]] I would rather refuse to perform any actions here. Unless the community wants the GS to play a significant role in countervandalism work (which I don't expect) I am not supporting any movement towards an opt-in. Please also note my COI in this case. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 23:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*: Thanks for your comments, Vogone. I would generally agree, except in cases where a vandal is around when no admins are. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
As a strong believer in democracy, and in the independence of each wiki, I would like to urge everyone again to be extra careful here. Many people try to interfere with wiki processes and decision making in ways we are not (and can't even be) aware of. If you want an example, see [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34220 this leaked discussion] of ArbCom, and read what they say about Wikiquote. This has happened before, and will happen again, sooner or later. Everyone has their own interests in mind, which is fine, but ''we'' responsible Wikiquote editors should resist and not give away power to outsiders needlessly, and do our best to keep the Wikiquote project as independent as possible. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
*::Being a global sysop is completely different from being on the English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. Global sysops only deal with spam (including spambots, linkspam, etc.) and vandalism. I do not know exactly what made Barras start this discussion, but please note that nobody is trying to force this on you. If you decide against it, that's fine, but GS are experienced and willing to help with tasks that most would find tedious. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 00:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
*Would a local admin like to review the discussion above? Once that happens, if there is consensus to opt-in, stewards can remove enwq from the opt-out list. [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]] ([[User talk:Ajraddatz|talk]]) 07:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
*:Bump. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 12:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
*::[[User:Mdd|Mdd]]: update? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
*:::@PiRSquared. I think Wikiquote will benefit from Global sysops's the most, if the most active users and local sysops's here see the need, and would welcome this initiative. At the moment only half of them do, and the other half have some kind of doubt. When it comes to granting administrator rights here on Wikiquote, there must be more consensus to do so.
*:::Now in the first comment here Barras explained "Since GS is opt-in only, a vote for this is needed". Frankly I don't see this discussion as a vote. I am used (at the Dutch Wikipedia), that before some kind of vote started, there first must be an announcement at the Village pump; And I have more or less considered this discussion as such an announcement. Shouldn't a real vote be held at a page, such as [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]], during a limited period? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 21:05, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
*::::As far as I see it, only clear consensus in favour of opting in to GS needs to be provided. Which process the community undergoes to reach that is probably irrelevant to the stewards and at the discretion of the local community. [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 19:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
*:::::Let it be clear, that the vote Barras suggested hasn't taken place; In such a situation it would be not appropriate to let a local administrator review this discussion, as Ajraddatz suggested. There is in my opinion no clear consensus about either the procedure, either about the subject to opt-in the Global sysops here. Let it also be clear that only a handful of active Wikiquote users have participated in this matter. In order to get more clearance, and a larger participation I propose to start a vote at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] for a period of a week, which can be accepted when 75% of the participants agree. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 20:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
[[File:Piazza del Plebiscito - Augusto De Luca.jpg|frameless|right]]
Another argument against opting-in: global sysops have recently been deleting a userpage by a user, consisting of a simple picture (right), on hundreds of wikis, claiming it is spam. Here too, the userpage was tagged for deletion, by a global sysop [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:Augusto_De_Luca&diff=1701918&oldid=1700992], with the rationale: "crosswiki spam". The speedy deletion was declined, replace by a Prod, and now a [[Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca|VfD]] is taking place. I predict the page will eventually be deleted. But then, you ask, wasn't tagging the page, suggesting that it be deleted, proper after all? Yes, it was. Then what is the problem? The problem, you see, is that it was only tagged, and not outright deleted, because global sysops are not opted in here. (I say, we should keep it that way.) Each community should be allowed to weigh in, and decide for themselves what to do in cases like this... ''roar''... ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
:Global sysops usually don't delete pages on wikis with local active sysops even if the wikis are opted-in. --[[User:Glaisher|Glaisher]] ([[User talk:Glaisher|talk]]) 11:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
*[[User:Barras]]: as stated by [[User:Mdd]]. No. --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Admin nomination of Kalki ==

As some are aware, I was once an admin here (from 29 January 2004 to 1 December 2009), and I have now nominated myself to regain adminship at '''[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship‎‎ |Requests for adminship‎‎]]'''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

----

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

* [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship]] states that "Adminship nominations must be posted for '''at least one week''', to provide opportunity for comments and voting, before a bureaucrat will make the promotion if warranted". This sets a minimum time but not a maximum. We have routinely allowed these discussions to stay open for longer times, to allow the community the greatest opportunity to find and weigh in on the discussion (see, e.g., [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Mdd]]). Indeed, since your request for closure, an additional opinion has been offered which has changed the proportion of support from 66.7% to 60%. I would give it a few more days. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 16:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, sounds good. Thank you, {{u|BD2412}}, I'll defer to your judgement. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:32, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== User Creation Logs ==

We need an active sysop to block the recent account creations. Since YODO was blocked, we have been getting some recent vandals here. Any opinions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:Yeah, there's definitely a vandal/sock attack currently. I'm watching and can get stewards if needed. Maybe [[User:Jni]] could help...? [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks, [[User:Mdd|Mdd]]. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 19:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::And thank you both. [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 19:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'll be online for next couple hours and can help with pest control for sure! I was tracing one sock/vandal from en-wp to here in fact. I've been mostly inactive for few years so please tell me if I do something stupid with the admin tools. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:::I am thinking about adding a template where we can place it on a user talk page saying that their name is not appropriate for wikiquote. But we need a sysop to block the inappropriate username. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

== Contributions ==

Anyone can contribute to [[User:Goldenburg111/Wikiquote in 2014]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
: The page says "This page is to document issues with Wikiquote since January 1, 2014." What kind of issues? I for one think that we need a complete top down reimagining of the software, so that quotes can be sorted by every kind of data (topic, author, date, kind of work, etc.). [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
:: Issues = Sockpuppetry, canvassing by Cirt at Meta, causing drama and disruption. Different sockpuppeters and new accounts made for vandalism. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
::: It's your userspace, you're free to do as you will with it. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::::'''Comment:''' I understand that Kalki and I have had disagreements over interpretations of his behavior patterns in the past. For this reason after much thought I've decided not to comment further upon the ongoing RFA. I'll instead respectfully defer to the community in the discussion there. Have a great day, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::: While it's your userspace, you can collect notes of that nature there if want to, but is it really that constructive activity? Sounds like stirring more drama and disruption. Sockpuppet notice board might be useful though, especially tracking for cross-wiki sockpuppeteers. [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 10:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
:::: Thank you jni for clarifying, is it okay to add notes about main points instead of specific users being "called out"? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
::::: That is certainly better than calling out individual users. But I'd avoid even creating such a page in first place. That is just my personal opinion, I don't think there is any policy forbidding user's maintaining bulletin/notice board kind of pages in their user space (and I'd hate bureaucrazy like that here). [[User:Jni|jni]] ([[User talk:Jni|talk]]) 15:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Citation error ==

Hey, I've got no idea what's wrong with the citations over at [[Stephenie LaGrossa]]. All I did was copy it over from Wikipedia. Is citation style different here? [[User:Survivorfan1995|Survivorfan1995]] ([[User talk:Survivorfan1995|talk]]) 18:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
:Hi. You forgot to add <nowiki><references/></nowiki>, but in any case Wikiquote's [[Wikiquote:Templates#Formatting guidelines|formatting guidelines]] are a bit different than those of Wikipedia, so I've re-formatted the article accordingly. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:22, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

== Activist group public relations announcement being put forward as a 'quote' ==

As shown in [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Abortion&diff=0&oldid=1674179 this edit], an IP editor is repeatedly inserting an announcement by an anti-abortion activist organization, an announcement that is not notable, nor is it traceable to a single person. As such, I don't think it can be called a quote. This IP editor has in the past repeatedly tussled with me over the attribution of abortion quotes, challenging the findings of Ann D. Gordon who is the top scholar on Susan B. Anthony's life. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 22:34, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== WikiProject Name Confusion ==

Hi Wikiquote and all of it's fellow members! I am thinking about a Wikiquote WikiProject. I want to create a wikiproject that encourages users to clean up at least one article in a week. In a few months, the cleanup categories would be blank! I am still struggling on the name of the project. Any suggestions for the name? Or any suggestion on the Project itself? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:How about WikiProject Weekly Cleanup? Direct and to the point. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks BD2 for your suggestions. I think that's a good name. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's one as well WikiProject: Article Cleanup project? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] 22:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
: I think we've preferred to call them pages rather than articles here (to contrast with Wikipedia's "article" space and Wiktionary's "entry" space). Come to think of it, we really don't have the tradition of WikiProjects here that Wikipedia does, although we could surely use some. For example, we could coordinate with [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Law|WikiProject Law]] and [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine|WikiProject Medicine]] to improve our pages covering these specific fields. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:: I bet this one would benefit Wikiquote easily. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:37, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Wikiquote:WikiProject Weekly Cleanup]] ==

You may feel free to join! Any suggestions? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom]] ==
Hello, per [[m:Global bans]], a general requirement of a global bans request for comment is notify all projects where the user subject to the ban has editied. DanielTom is either an active editor or a past editor of this wiki and therefore I am notifying the project of this proposal. Everyone is welcome to go and voice their opinion of the proposal and about the user in general. Thanks, [[User:John F. Lewis|John F. Lewis]] ([[User talk:John F. Lewis|talk]]) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:Global bans can create serious consequences, I'd urge users to look at this ban proposal. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I have left my own comment of opposition to [[m:Requests for comment/Global ban for DanielTom|this '''''there''''']], and like '''Abd''' have requested a speedy dismissal of this as a quite unwarranted request. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Reading distorted descriptions of yourself painted in the worst possible light can be slightly amusing, or extremely depressing, considering how other people might take this garbage seriously. If anything, this shows how extremely unwise it is to edit under anything close to your real name, though I'm sure most people here don't need to be reminded of that. Anyway, thanks to everyone who commented there, I appreciate it. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:57, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
: I am glad to see you're back and this particular nonsense has ended. I would advise remaining ''cautious'' though. I, for years, have put up with some nonsense which in some ways has not been quite that immediately consequential — and am willing to continue to do so, with confidence that when truths are sufficiently assessed, whatever the faults or deficiencies I might have inadvertently manifested in the courses of events will clearly be perceived to not be the most grievous ones. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak
* I am glad the ban request was quickly withdrawn before I wasted any time drafting an explanation of why it was a mistake. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

* I am also glad, that this ban request is withdrawn. It would be nice if these past events would be resolved instead of keep coming back. -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 23:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

== Main Page Images ==

The average number of images per quote of the day has gotten quite high, with there being 10 separate images on January 30 (which were, to this user, very difficult to look at). Was there ever a consensus reached about the number/size/quality of images on the main page, and if so, is it being followed? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
: Extensive discussion in 2011–2012 reached an apparent consensus that this is too much, but not how much is ok. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_35#Images_on_Main_Page] [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_36#Main_Page_and_images]) This nonspecific consensus was enforced for a time by removing ''all'' images pending adoption of a specific policy. Images returned to the main page just under a year ago, without any policy or guideline, and attempts to moderate their quantity have been reverted. ([//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Wikiquote:Quote_of_the_day.2FApril_2013_-_lay_out]) In short: (1) no, there is no express consensus for what should be included, and (2) no, consensus for what should not be included, vague though it be, is not being followed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' I do not think the attempts to moderate the quantity of images on the Main Page should have been reverted. It is quite frustrating to see a community consensus summarily reverted and arbitrarily ignored. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:39, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I have followed the discussion on and off for the past few years, and I understand the two sides - that there is a consensus, and there is a very active minority that doesn't care for that consensus. Can we (well, you, since I'm not qualified) actually create a policy that reflects the consensus, or at the very least limits the number/size/quality of images (say, one on each side and a small one above and below, which, though still excessive, at least leaves the front page readable)? Or, alternatively, is it not even worth it? [[Special:Contributions/132.177.170.36|132.177.170.36]] 19:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::I echo the concerns of {{user|132.177.170.36}} and agree with the comments made here. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
----
I find the comments on this issue in this section rather misleading in various ways, but especially reject the implied assertions that any actual wide ranging consensus was arrived at after any substantial or extensive periods of active debate, despite the periods of months or years during which these contentions have sometimes VERY briefly occurred, and gone largely ignored by others, either unaware of them, or too disinterested or intimidated by the intensity of opinions to get involved.

Though sometimes I can do some rather quickly, It often takes much work and considerable effort and thought to produce a good layout, and I confess I do not always succeed to my own satisfaction with the materials available, but for many years I have done what I could with the quotes available here and the images available at the commons, and I believe that this service is a generally valued and appreciated one, based upon the comments of people with as yet little or no personal involvement here in the issue.

On 31 January 2012, there was an act of aggressive and arrogant '''''[[censorship]]''''' which was suddenly imposed by one admin who I believe simply sensed an opportunity to further harass and constrain my activities here with but little complaint likely from others most actively involved in these matters at the time. Clearly without much regard for permitting any further discussions, and inclined to take the most radically severe steps available, he decided to destructively edit what I believe was a quite good and relevant layout for February 3, a few minutes after I posted it:
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:DonMcLeanWestport2009.jpg|222px]] [[Image:Motherhood and apple pie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:SépultureCathelineau.JPG|121px]] ''I went down to the [[Holiness|sacred]] store Where I'd heard the [[music]] years before But the [[man]] there said the music wouldn't play And in the streets the [[children]] screamed The [[Love|lovers]] cried and the [[poets]] [[Dreams|dreamed]] But not a [[Words|word]] was [[Speaking|spoken]] The [[church]] [[bells]] all were broken And the three men I [[Admiration|admire]] most [[w:American Pie (song)|The Father, Son and Holy Ghost]] They caught the last [[Trains|train]] for the coast [[w:The Day the Music Died|The Day the Music Died]].'' ~ [[Don McLean]] ~ [[File:HollyMonument.jpg|121px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Buddy holly.jpg|234px]] [[File:American apple pie.jpg|234px]]
|}

'''After this edit ONLY the text remained, and ''none'' of the relevant imagery, which I had chosen to honor these artists and to commemorate some of the themes and ideas of their music.''' I myself, if I remember correctly, was in a hurry, and unable to edit it further, and had to leave soon after that.

I am able and willing to work with anyone, but I do anger somewhat at what I perceive to be various forms of injustice and hypocrisy which do arise all to frequently where people are not confronted with each other in face to face dialogue, and many rules can be rather extravagantly grown and even more extravagantly ignored or dismissed while some of the most aggressively denigrative of people are focussing upon and magnifying the relatively minor breaches of rules or merely expectations which others make.

This led to my DISGUST at the foully presumptive forms of impulses towards what I believe to be improper censorship and constraints which were becoming far more evident and boldly practiced on this site, which was founded and had existed for years quite uncontroversially as a wiki with acceptance of MAXIMAL freedoms of editors and MINIMAL rule by any officials, and led to my decision not to even bother adding them for at least a few days or weeks, when I believed I might have more time to address some of the precise quantitative restrictions which were being proposed in regard to various rather nebulous qualitative issues.

Further acts of abusive destruction occurred so regularly in the period after that, It was actually over a year, before I began adding images to the QOTD again partially in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 2013|March 2013]], and fully in [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/April 2013|April]], [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/May 2013|May]], and ever since then, and once again, received more compliments than complaints, but those few who seem eager and willing to oppose these layouts have again banded together, while those who are not involved and perhaps do not wish to be involved in such contentious matters have remained unaware or uninvolved, as is their right.

Though I can honestly recognize that the layouts are not always so well developed or well honed as further time might permit, and I myself would have simplified some of them, but certainly not merely to decrease their visual size, had I had more time to consider things.

I also believe that over the years I have certainly received ''FAR more'' compliments both publicly and in private for my graphic presentations than complaints about them, despite the relatively few disparaging remarks a year that have arisen here because of them, and which have often been seized upon by those very little involvement here generally beyond supporting the constraints of others, and who seem most zealous to find ways to rigorously constrain and suppress some forms of presentation options.

I believe that there are now attempts by those who are often involved in little more than devising constraints and rules to bind others in such ways as they themselves would not find binding or uncomfortable at all to group together and impose their will suddenly and vigorously, as has sometimes occurred in the past.

'''This issue as well as others are some I believe should be elaborated upon more extensively in the coming weeks and months, and sufficient time for arguments to be presented and considered, and matters settled with more widespread involvement.''' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

: Kalki, to me, those pictures of american pies have too bright a color—they really do distract one's attention from the quote. And this is Wiki''quote''. All I can say, regarding this issue, is that ''I'' personally would do the QOTD layout differently, with fewer and smaller pictures, and more emphasis on the quote (incl. source). But Kalki has been the only one doing the QOTDs, for many years, and of course he is doing what looks ''to him'' the best. I don't think it's possible to convince Kalki that he is "wrong". ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I am still around, but quite later than I planned to be at getting started on several things elsewhere, and just briefly noting that I do believe matters can and should be more elaborately discussed, and in my relatively few contentions with people on what the best images available for pages have been, have always been willing to reach acceptable compromises or agreements, where alternatives are presented, but I believe efforts to rigorously constrain or entirely eliminate the use of imagery are very detrimental for many reasons, and I am willing to specify many reasons why later. I ''must'' get going now. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I hardly recognized Don McLean - I think Kalki does brilliant work and the images draw my eye to the word content -clumsily put, I mean draw mw to the whole thing, so the words get read - still I suppose there were iconoclasts who went round smashing in stained glass windows - some people seem puritan by nature and theres probably no pleasing them. [[User:Sayerslle|Sayerslle]] ([[User talk:Sayerslle|talk]]) 14:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I thank you much for your appreciation. And I would note that I do believe images always serve as windows to a far more expansive range of ideas than text quotes alone usually do, and that is one of many reasons I believe them desirable. And I know that I am not alone in referring to photographs and graphic art works as "visual quotation" though the concept apparently remains unfamiliar to most. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
: There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum. I look forward to the actual exercise of Kalki's professed ability and willingness to work with anyone on this issue, so that a meaningful compromise may be found between [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1405414 no images at all] and [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=1580787 overwhelming that which is ostensibly being presented]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::''[https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1678350&oldid=1678327 "There may be something to what Kalki writes above about people being intimidated by the nature of these discussions. Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum."]''. I for one strongly agree with these comments by {{user|Ningauble}}, above. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 18:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
[[File:N3 Etech05 Larry.jpg|thumb|It's a bumper sticker culture. People have to get it like that, and if they don't, if it takes three seconds to make them [[understand]], you're off their radar screen. ~ [[Larry Lessig]] ]]
::: Oh, my sometimes obviously passionate intensity in asserting honest opinions as effectively as I can against what I perceive to be various forms of error, false suppositions, or deliberate deceits can sometimes be very intimidating I suppose, but there obviously is no way that there is any attempt to intimidate in what an official admin might declare in imperious tones of condescension of apparently "Authoritative Objectivity" to anyone who disagrees with their own particular ranges of opinion or will. Seconded by another "admin" who in my honest opinion relies upon various forms of flattery and intimidation to retain what prestige, position and power he has attained. "Walls of text laden with boldfaced shouting and emotionally charged invective might indeed have the effect of deterring a quorum." That surely is PURELY objective and neutral assertion, simply asserted against the uncivil act of anyone arguing extensively against any one else's position — it seems no one could even conceivably or rationally disagree with that. ''Sarcasm intended here'' — yet I hope some of my silliness in presenting these sincere observations can be forgiven, as I forgive others for sometimes being so damned imperiously somber and officiously censorious about things. '''I generally like people, even many of those who often strongly disagree with me, and I like there being a variety of ideas and attitudes available to people — and as most artists would assert, images provide ways to introduce some of these to people in ways that would otherwise not occur.'''
::: That there actually might be people who find things more interesting with some indications of aspects of the quote they might not have known about or considered through the use of imagery, is something to be dismissed as mere "distraction" and promotion of "distraction", and such arguments merely "digression" from such hard and fast rules as some people wish to establish in a project that was created as one of many with implicit and sometimes EXPLICIT directives to avoid the hang-ups of having too many hard and fast rules — which the wise know can often be abused by people very casually in very many ways, against which most people often have little recourse.
::: '''I quote [[Larry Lessig]] with an image to emphasize that imagery IS useful in drawing people to contemplate the quote associated with the imagery, in ways text alone would NOT.''' As to compromises, I will try to refrain from more than 4 or 5 images, when there is no need for them to frame the text: there are generally 4 regions on the QOTD layout where images can be presented. I usually, but not always, attempt to use all of these to at least some extent, though until recently I usually preferred rather minor images above and below the quote, and I admit that sometimes I clearly have overdone things in ways that are not the best aesthetic arrangements possible. Usually that was because I was trying to present significant ideas which were relevant to the quote being used, or simply significant images of the author of the statement or its subject. I believe 2 good solid blocks of imagery to either side is usually desirable, and can accept that I should not attempt to put too many images in the layout, merely to present ideas present or implied in the quotes; but on larger quotes especially more than one image to either side is sometimes necessary to properly frame the entire text, and on smaller quotes images to the top and bottom allow the text to be framed in such a way as draws one's attention to it further, in ways that would not exist without some imagery. I believe there should always be a minimum of two images, and a maximum of 4 regions of imagery, generally not to exceed 50% of the area of main page, and preferably less than an third of it, even though absolute rules on that would make me uncomfortable. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::(I'm the topic starter; I just registered my account.) What I'm getting from this discussion is that essentially we have no choice but to hope Kalki keeps things under control, then? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 14:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: Though we obviously differ strongly in our opinions on this matter, I thank you for creating an account here, and welcome you as a participant. I would certainly phrase things differently, and assert rather bluntly, that in accord with the principles with which Wiki software and Wikimedia projects were founded and developed: '''I seek to keep things from being under too much needless or detrimental "control" by ''anyone'', including myself.''' I have certainly NOT sought to exert any extraordinary ''control'' of things which I am not actively involved in as a regularly concerned ''participant'', here or anywhere, and seek to rigorously control nothing so much as ''my own actions'', rather than that of others. '''Usually I have sought to find ways, through various venues, including this one, to INDICATE diverse views on Truth and Beauty, Meaning and Purpose, and not merely those I myself find most valid or appealing, though, like most people, I generally would favor these.''' I believe that IF things are perceptively reviewed without the prejudices of presuming things have to be under some sort of absolutist controls, by people assuming or wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY, I have persistently sought to keep many things from becoming rigorously controlled by such impulses, all of my life. And '''I did not seek to ''establish'' such principles of behavior here — the wiki software and the wiki projects were ''already'' quite ''explicitly'' established with such aims and procedures in mind''' — I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as I do not believe proper, in either rational or ethical senses. I believe that even if sometimes they are manifest in mild forms, there are many ways the impulses to overly control things have been detrimental in far more ways than are apparent by the casual examinations of those who out of fears, hatreds, resentments or merely minor irritation, are most inclined to find ways to absolutely judge, condemn and punish others are likely to practice, and which require the more extensive examination of those who are more tolerant, patient, and willing to forgive error, without needlessly punishing it, and prone to let many diverse forms of participation in presentations arise. I have just now created a page for '''[[Solomon Asch]]''', to accompany one I have started on '''[[Philip Zimbardo]]''', and one I have helped develop on '''[[Stanley Milgram]]''', each of whom have contributed major insights into social psychology and the various ways group pressures can often corrupt moral assessments and rational competence, and have helped develop general ideas of the cognition necessary for recognizing and combatting '''[[Groupthink]]''' excesses of control over individual volition and choices. I would recommend them to anyone interested in reviewing some of the fundamentals of social psychology. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)+ tweaks

::::::You claim to act against people "wishing to behave AS IF they KNOW what is best for others to DO, THINK and SAY" but then later say "I have for the most part simply have opposed efforts to corrupt or constrain those principles in such ways as *I DO NOT BELIEVE PROPER*" (emphasis mine that time). You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others. Once you start acting upon what you do and do not believe proper, consensus becomes irrelevant. This is no longer a collaborative project, but one that is based on your whims and desires.

::::::I ask everyone: should it be the latter? And if not, what can we do about it? [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Again, quite frankly — I quite ''honestly'' state that I, like everyone, act for the most part on my beliefs and impressions, rather than try to pretend to anyone that such a path is simply "horrific" and intolerable — and as I have indicated many times, I try to keep my beliefs reasonable and in maximal harmony with verifiable [[Truths]], the vital virtues of [[Humility]], [[Courage]], [[Honesty]] and [[Compassion]] and principles of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]], and to the extent any "collective" or "individual" opposes these, and insists on absolute conformity in ways that are not innately necessary, I believe that to be an error of the type I have been inclined to label foully fascist, arrogant, tyrannical, and terroristic since I was a very young child. I can forgive people for doing such things, but I do not provide them my willing consent or approval, and if I can find ways of doing so, I seek to find ways to help people rise out of such errors and embrace paths of greater grace, and genuine harmony which only can come about by respect for eternal and enduring truths rather than either collective or individual wills as to how to characterize or serve such truths. I believe you obviously did not look at some of the suggested pages, or if you did, did not understand the statements that indicate where people passionately forbid certain forms of independence because "consensus becomes irrelevant " they are espousing views where '''''truth''''' and genuine rationality and morality quite often become irrelevant, in deference to force of "the collective". That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''." ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:::: In answer to the question above, "What can we do about it?" - It seems clear that nothing can be done about it. The visual appearance of the project is effectively under the control of one editor and there is no prospect that this situation will ever change. It's a remarkable and I think unprecedented situation in the Wiki-related universe. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 20:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

::::Kalki said: That is nothing other than simply [[Fascism]] such as summarily implies or states "'''Might makes Right'''" or "'''Might is always Right'''."

::::No, instead Kalki's particular interpretation of "truth" is always right. I have to sadly agree with the above, that as long as Kalki is allowed to define what is right, and is allowed to discount every other opinion because it does not fit "truth," "rationality," or "morality," this project is hopeless. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 21:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::Nothing prevents Macspaunday, or you, or anyone else, from working on it, selecting and creating a QOTD every single day, the way you see fit. I don't think Kalki could, or would, revert your efforts. But it would be a lot of work. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: '''Actually, it is not entirely true that they are free to do whatever they see fit; I myself am not entirely free to do entirely as I see fit, in all regards, and do not wish to be.''' While still an admin and a long admired one, I constrained myself and the selection processes to its current procedures, gradually over time, to allow maximum input in selections of QOTD from all who wished to be involved, and though there are currently very few who regularly participate now, Zarbon, for one, was once a frequent opponent in debates over which quotes should be selected, and he was actually quite effective in getting his way much of the time, but not so much of it as he might have wished.
:::::: In regard to larger issues: '''I quite often keep MANY of my opinions and many aspects of my knowledge reserved from overt presentation, yet sometimes I choose not to remain quiet about long constrained perspectives that indicate what I perceive of some of the deficiencies and flaws in the arguments and strategies of others. '''I might often out of convenience or necessity refrain from revealing some truths, but I certainly do not go about attempting to obscure truths on vitally important matters and principles, nor silence others from indicating their opinions of them, and when people do resort to attempting to do so in various ways, out of various irritations with the views of others, and my own or others arguments or tenacity in not bowing abjectly to theirs, '''I do not always "politely" defer to simply accepting their particular opinions or rather crude attempts to distort or defame mine or those of others, such as have most actively created and built these projects, rather than simply control what others can do.''' I know some people wish to try to make that seem "unconscionably" rude, but so be it. I state my case as ably as I believe proper and necessary, and let others state theirs. I have been doing the very extensive and occasionally contentious work for years, amidst some frustratations, but with general approval, and a few others seek to occasionally frustrate and absolutely constrain my assessments of what presentations would be optimal to what theirs would be, simply because thus far, a very few people band together, with assumptions they speak for a majority of others, to say they don't understand, don't accept and don't desire my contributions. '''Even though, throughout the years, I have had ''FAR more'' people I find far more generally respectable, say that they value them, I realize that such groups joined in their avid hostilities can indeed be a threat to many generally desirable liberties and freedoms — and such people often do get quite irate and intolerant of others rights when they are not abjectly obeyed.''' I am a person who has had my life genuinely threatened in literal ways, and not been cowed by such arrogance, nor deterred in seeking to protect the rights of myself and others; I am not prone to submit without need to those who seem adamant in their desires that excessive forms of constraint and command over the rights and liberties of others be accepted and deferred to, apparently without question nor even vigorous counter-arguments. — that's about all I can say right now, as I have to attend to some matters because I must be leaving soon, at least briefly. ''[[Blessings]] to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::: Can we step back from discussion of process, philosophy, and personality for a moment, and return to the original topic of this thread, which was '''Main Page Images''' and, specifically, the quantity thereof? In particular, I would like to explore two specific points in the last paragraph of Kalki's post on 5 February 2014 at 18:53, beginning at the phrase "As to compromises", regarding ''necessity'' and ''proportion'' these images.
::# I don't think it has been demonstrated that it is ''necessary to frame the entire text'' of the QotD with images. When I first joined Wikiquote some years back the quote of the day was accompanied by one small image on the main page. It was framed by a colored box with a header and footer. I do not recall any great hue and cry, or any comment at all, about the lack of a ''necessary frame of images'' boxing the quote. If one were designing the main page from scratch, one might begin by listing possible features and classifying them as either vitally necessary, highly desirable, or wish-list items. I think including a quote of the day would rank quite high and adding an image would be very desirable but, in my opinion, including a montage of images would have little or no priority for the main landing page of a site devoted to quotations. I would certainly recommend against using a "frame" that dominates the entire page, which brings up the second point...
::# Devoting ''up to 50% of the page'' to this material is, in my opinion, completely out of proportion to other priorities for space on the project's main public portal. As remarked in an earlier discussion, it pushes everything else but the masthead below the fold. Even a third of the page strikes me as a disproportionate allocation among main elements of the page:
::::* Masthead
::::* Quote of the day
::::* Selected pages
::::* New pages
::::* Main categories
::::* Community
::::* Sister projects
::::* Other languages
:::: I suggest we consider illustrating the presentation of the quote of the day in proportion to that which is ostensibly being presented:  I think allocating ''one third of the QotD block'' to illustration would be a more appropriate upper limit than a third or a half of the entire page.
::: I welcome the thoughts and opinions of other contributors about what is necessary and what is proportionate for Wikiquote's main landing page. (I don't think discussion of process, philosophy, and personality is going to shed much light on those issues.) ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I know that very few things are "necessary" to accept as "necessary" in any absolute sense, but do believe that framing the text with image fields is quite aesthetically appealing to ''most'' people, and ''thus'' highly desirable for presentations. '''The ''only'' things which regularly change on the main page here are the QOTD and the New page listings which are directly below it, and so I do not think that it remaining a prominent portion of the page, actually less than 25% of the page in most cases, I believe, is at all undesirable for a primary presentation page.''' The other sections are certainly not all that less convenient to access, to anyone but those with very slow connections. Though I am doing some things out of consideration for those in such circumstances, such as stripping out most px specs and reducing the use of animations on pages, I have stated before I don't believe that those who still have such should be a primary constraint on the development of any of our wiki pages. I do believe that if their problems are extreme enough, they should simply shut off image displays on their primary browser, or use an alternate browser where such settings are used. I believe that reducing the size of the images, relative to the size of the quote, or to one third of the QOTD is a rather crude and extreme measure to simply minimize the size of images, the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds, which are increasingly uncommon among most users, and generally not accommodated as a primary concern at most sites on the internet, ''including'' Wikimedia ones. '''As I have previously stated, it is quite standard to get pages with well over a hundred images at the much more commonly visited Wikimedia commons.''' As usual, I am quite willing to honor general provisions which can be arrived at, but do not generally support creating overly detailed nor overly absolute constraints on any matters, in accord with the principles of innovation and adaptation with which the Wikis were founded. I believe a general agreement to keep the images proportional to the page, and usually less than 30% is a reasonable one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::::: It's not about page loading time, it's about screen real estate on the main page. It is not a case of "the only reason for such being very slow connection speeds". The reasons given are pushing everything else below the fold, and proportion to relevance for the purpose of a home page. I think you are mistaken in considering the main page "a primary presentation page":  The home page is primarily a ''portal to the project''. Compare the ''[[commons:|home page]]'' of the Wikimedia Commons project to which you refer:  it has ''two'' pictures (one static and one media file), each of which is the focus of a dedicated section. (It also uses a few iconographic links, as does ours.) Of course a project that is primarily a repository of images and media files has many pages with many more images, but not on its main portal page – this example does not support your argument. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: We are all involved to varying degrees in various forms of presentations. I believe the people who normally are involved with the main page layout for the commons do a fine job, and generally understand that graphic layouts are important to sparking and developing interests in a broad variety of subjects, people and ideas — as are quotes. I believe that it is widely recognized that quotes used in conjunction with images and visual images in conjunction with text quotes can often do a far better job of generating interest, curiosity, contemplation and exploration than either generally would alone, and that highly formalized constraints on presentations simply limit the varieties of options available in composing such presentations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Proposal to adopt Wikipedia's policy on having multiple accounts. ==

As [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] pointed out in his recent RfA, Wikiquote has no specific policy page establishing a mandate against editing from multiple accounts. The Wikipedia policy with respect to this issue is thorough and long-established, providing both the rationales for prohibiting editing from multiple accounts as a general matter, and the means and circumstances by which such editing is permissible (for example, editing from a clearly designated "backup account" when working from a public computer). I therefore '''propose to adopt''' the language of [[w:Wikipedia:Sock puppetry|Wikipedia:Sock puppetry]] in its entirety, subject only to modifications for replacing instances of "Wikipedia" with "Wikiquote". Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:I briefly posted this on the Administrator's Noticeboard, but realized it should be on this page instead. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 The Wikiquote community already seems to support this.] Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I would like to note that the above link states specifically that "Kalki is limited to one account" and that this was an unprecedented restriction here, in reaction to controversies that arose because I had created multiple accounts, and was unapologetic for doing so, and at that time unwilling to state some of the reasons for them, or take issue with the matter, and that I had in fact already agreed to limit myself to editing from one account, and had not and have not in any way attempted to evade that restriction, nor to misuse any of my accounts either before that time or since. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
* '''Oppose (very conditionally)''' : I am quite willing to ''develop'' and largely adopt such rules, within the next month or so, but would much prefer to make some important distinctions which are not evident in this document as it exists in its current state, despite having been gradually evolving or decaying in various stages, for many years, on a far more populated site, since its inception in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry&oldid=2446707 14 February 2004]‎, where it provided little more than a definition and the statement:
:: ''Some folks believe sock puppets suck. Others believe that they are useful, when used for good.''
: I believe there are issues to be raised more explicitly now. There are ALSO significant FACTS related to my own past use of multiple accounts and the reactions of others to them that I wish to be honestly and fairly addressed, and measures taken to rectify the current situation where I believe quite improperly and unjustly, the accounts I was gradually identifying as my own were suddenly defaced with VERY misleading statements which imply that these were merely Sockpuppets and that I had clearly been guilty of improper behavior with them, which I have always asserted was NEVER the case, and certainly never my intentions.
: Though I actually seem to be entering another week or so where I am likely to be more busy than I had thought elsewhere, within the next week or two I would actually like to ''begin'' to present upon my own user pages an accounting of ''some'' of the more significant reasons I created such accounts in the first place — and why I generally object to the pre-emptive suppression of such anonymity as they can afford, and why I object slightly to some of the wording in the current Wikipedia document, though not its general intent. I expect to be very busy on this matter and others in coming week or two, but to all, I send ''[[Blessings]]'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 18:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: This proposition is not ''ex post facto''; it has nothing to do with your previous accounts, other than your own assertion that Wikiquote has had no policy barring the use of multiple accounts. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: One of the things I would like to address is that the defacement of my multiple account pages as "Sock puppets" was undertaken not merely ''ex post facto'' but without clear community consensus to label them such, largely by one very hostile and very presumptive admin, who on the same page he links to only a portion of, was being declared by others to have acted improperly and in such ways as were clearly against policies. If we are going to adopt a policy regarding multiple accounts, I would like the long-standing injustice of that addressed as well, so that these accounts can be labelled in less presumptive and what I believe to be quite dishonest ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:::: Our adoption of a forward-looking policy should not be contingent on addressing past events not occurring under that policy. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 20:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I certainly agree with that, but while discussions are occurring on such matters, I believe it would be proper to take assessments of past incidents, and such facts and opinions as I intend to present, in settling upon any new policies, and the adoption should not be rushed, merely for the convenience of some who might wish to rush such matters, and forego discussions or debates in such ways as I believe would be detrimental in many ways. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Adopting Wikipedia's policy as it stands could be problematic because it makes reference to entities and procedures for which Wikiquote does not have any local counterpart, e.g. Arbitration Committee and checkuser. Our [[Wikiquote:Username policy#Using multiple user accounts|current policy]] simply says ''"It is recommended that users not edit under multiple usernames, unless they have a very good reason."'' Something more definitive than this would be a good idea, and the Wikipedia policy could be a good starting point. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
*: I have imported the Wikipedia page to [[Wikiquote:Sock puppetry]] and tagged it as an essay for now. We can whittle it down and otherwise adjust it to our local needs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Thanks for that — as I indicated, I am willing to support a slightly revised version of this eventually — but I would expect it to take at least a couple of weeks to establish a viable agreement. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: Of that, I have no doubt. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== WelcomeBot ==

This bot has been beating me with a stick as soon as I looked over this bot's contribution list. WelcomeBot's last edit [[Special:Contributions/WelcomeBot|was in 2008.]] Now, it has been six years (correct me if I am wrong) since this bot has contributed. On other wikis, the bureaucrats would revoke the bot's right due to inactivity. [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3AWelcomeBot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 See User Rights Log]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

== [[:File:Voltairinedecleyre.png]] ==

Since [[:File:VoltairinedeCleyre.jpg]] exists - and is a completely different image - I renamed this. I've also done a restoration. However, a number of the usages here are on protected pages, so can someone replace the usage at [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/November 17]] with either:
[[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35) - Original.png]] (unrestored version) or [[:File:Voltairine de Cleyre (Age 35).jpg]] (restored version)? [[User:Adam Cuerden|Adam Cuerden]] ([[User talk:Adam Cuerden|talk]]) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
: The page probably should not have been protected. This is [[w:WP:CASCADE|cascading protection]] from the page [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Display]], which was created in an abortive attempt to [//en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote_talk:Quote_of_the_day&oldid=1200367 reorganize QotD pages]. As the reorganization appears to have been abandoned and its index does not appear to be used anywhere, I wonder if the page creator, [[User:Cirt|Cirt]], would be amenable to deleting it and the associated [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/Index/Links]]. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:: I never understood precisely what Cirt was trying to do with these back then, in 2009, but they were entirely his effort, without much regard or consideration of the long standing and enduring QOTD selection, processing and archiving procedures, and all those index pages currently in a format that improperly generalizes them with titles such as "[[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1]]" were moved into these titles then, and I believe simply should be moved back to the standard [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/January 1, 2009]] title format for them. I don't understand exactly what is causing the protection problems at this point, having ignored the issue for some time, as one of relatively little significance, but agree the protections should be removed, and the pages restored to their original more standard titles. I just happen to be checking in now, don't have much time, and must be leaving again soon. ''[[Blessings]]. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
:::'''Reply:''' I've unprotected both those pages. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

== Fair use audio/video clips ==

Hello,

Forgive my naive curiosity, but I wonder why Wikiquote pages never propose audio or video clips for famous quotes in movies, songs or speeches for instance. Since audio clips can be used as "fair use" on Wikipedia (see for instance on [[w:We Are the World #Music and vocal arrangements|"We Are the World"]]), is there anything that prevents Wikiquote contributors to put, say, short audio clips of [[Martin Luther King, Jr. #I Have A Dream (1963)|"I Have A Dream"]]'s finest quotes? or even a video clip of [[Gone with the Wind (film)|''Gone with the Wind'']]'s "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."?

Wouldn't that be "fair use"? wouldn't that be any useful to Wikiquote pages? I mean, lots of quotes from speeches or movies would benefit a lot from a presentation with their voice intonation, or visual context, no?

Thanks for any views on the subject! - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 16:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:Such media clips can be linked to within pages, if they are available at the commons under an acceptable license, but, of course, simply "fair use" materials are not. Years ago, to avoid duplications, excess, and complicated burdens on a limited staff of regular admins, it was decided at the English Wikiquote to use only media available at the commons. Though it might sometimes be frustrating, I still believe that is probably a good thing, over all, as there are often contentions on even using images available at the commons, as some of the above sections can indicate. ''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 16:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:
::OK, so the English Wikiquote is not opposed to fair use in itself (since, as I understood it on [[Wikiquote:Copyrights]], it is under that very fair use that quotations are put here), but chose to avoid the complexity to manage fair use media files. That answers my primary question, thanks!
::Now, theoretically speaking, would it be feasible? Would it be legal to use excerpts of copyrighted audio or video content, just to display them as quotations from a published work? And if yes, would it be any different if Wikiquote was a for-profit project?
::I'm trying to get a better view of how media excerpts can legally be viewed as "quotations"... (for instance, is there a difference between selling a dictionary of (text) quotations, which seems feasible, and selling a compendium of media quotations?)
::[[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 19:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am not familiar with all the technical details of how and why fair use has been defined or limited in various ways, in various contexts, and I am sure that this is a very complex legal matter, to which I make no pretense of having definite or authoritative answers. Good luck in seeking help on this one. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
::::No one here is giving legal advice. I actually think we ''could'' use audio/video clips that are in the public domain, but as to copyrighted material, "fair use" for educational purposes is usually something like (no more than) 5 seconds of a five minute video. (On some pages there are links to Youtube clips, that's much safer, and may work as a solution – though even there caution is required, linking to "illegal" material is of course not permissible.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 20:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::I wasn't trying to get legal advice (or any authoritative answer at all), I know [[w:Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer]] and the like quite well, sorry if that's the impression I gave you. I was simply curious about understanding how this (using media clips under "fair use") applies to Wikiquote, or in general, and I thought that maybe there were contributors here who would have previously dealt with the issue. And that curiosity was only triggered by the fact that, as a reader of Wikiquote, I thought audio/video clips on the pages would have been great, and then I wondered, "wait, maybe it's not possible?". [[File:Face-smile.svg|18px]]
:::::Thank you anyway for your answers. - [[User:Cos|Cos]] ([[User talk:Cos|talk]]) 18:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

== Six pictures for Quote of the day ?!? ==

Does the ''Quote of the day'' really need to have six (6) pictures in it?!?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 02:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:It is of course quite possible to indicate ''much'' of how snide and hypocritical a person can be in only 15 words or even fewer, but complexity and intricate sincerity of thought often demands much more than that, and in defense of liberties and generally healthy good humor, I am usually quite prone to provide what I can, when I can, in the hopes that some who are plainly ignorant, confused and intolerant towards the actual or potential capacities of others might eventually become knowledgeable and wise enough to develop a genuine and profound love for the principles of Liberty, rather than merely the sounding of such words as can indicate it among those who are not prone to be insincere and hypocritical. I also hope that those who are often intimidated or merely irritated by the intolerant can learn to laugh at them, even if it must be sardonic laughter, rather than being angry at them, and sometimes thus even slipping into their ranks, and becoming unjustly intolerant of those so ignorant and confused as to be unjustly intolerant, rather than simply and properly and justly intolerant of unjust intolerance itself.

:'''Actually the quote of the day for today has 611 pictures known as "letters" and "punctuation marks" within it. These are arranged in sequences representing 120 vocalizations commonly known as "words" which form phrases and statements of thought.''' Unfortunately many of these are often used by some people with very little actually [[sincerity]], or any profound understanding of principles or concepts, such as those who might regularly use words of praise for [[Freedom of speech]], while often doing so much as they can to effectively constrain and control such speech or indications of ideas as others can make, in extremely intolerant [[absolutist]] ways, which are often dependent upon mechanistic, [[wikt:legalistic|legalistic]] formulas which are often touted as "sensible" or even "necessary" by the unimaginative, to the unimaginative, for the unimaginative. It is often a very easy thing to get the unimaginative to agree that the imaginative should be constrained and controlled by those most eager to constrain and control them. Some might go so far as to stress that MANY of these symbols are actually "redundant" and repetitive — there are only 26 letters, and once of each of these should be enough to indicate all that these images should be construed to indicate — and combing them in various ways lead to such "distractions" as people call "ideas", which are nearly always a threat to powers and prestige of the most vacuous.

:Using my own admittedly limited imaginative capacities to discern that you were probably attempting to criticize the fact that 6 complex images generally referred to as pictures frame the 611-symbol quote of the day, I will address the rhetorical inquiry regarding their necessity. '''Of course, thought itself is perhaps not actually "necessary" thing among many human beings, as many people often make abundantly clear by their regular impulses towards impositions of relatively thoughtless constraints and condemnation of others abilities to indicate or express many forms of thought and thoughtfulness.

:In this particular case, six images were selected to indicate some aspects of the ideas indicated through the QOTD words, or provide images of the person who is being quoted. It certainly could have used more to illustrate its expansive call to praise of humanistic appreciation of life and all that human beings can experience or observe, and a rejection of those primarily dark, ignorant and confused impulses towards denigrative and destructive and even suicidal or murderous attitudes and actions which many of the most ignorant and confused of people often favor or promote.

{|
|&emsp;||
{| style="background: {{{color}}}"
| align=center | [[File:Sunrise in Midtown, New York City - January 16, 2013.jpg|222px]] [[File:Zegar słoneczny plac defilad wskazanie.jpg|222px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | {{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Arco iris circular.JPG|144px]] Do you have [[doubts]] about [[life]]? Are you unsure if it is really [[worth]] the [[trouble]]? Look at the [[sky]]: that is for you. Look at each [[person]]'s [[face]] as you pass them on the street: those faces are for you. And the street itself, and the ground under the street, and the ball of [[fire]] underneath the ground: [[all]] these things are for you. They are as much for you as they are for other [[people]]. [[Remember]] this when you wake up in the [[morning]] and think you have [[nothing]]. Stand up and face the east. Now [[praise]] the sky and praise the [[light]] within each person under the sky. It's okay to be unsure. But praise, praise, praise.
| author = Miranda July
}} [[File:Double-alaskan-rainbow.jpg|144px]]
| align=center |  
| align=center | [[File:Salutations to the Ganges at sunrise, Varanasi.jpg|201px]] [[File:Miju.jpg|201px]]
|}
|}
:With an emphasis on the worthiness of [[Life]] itself, especially to the extent it promotes [[Liberty]] and [[Justice]] in all vitally important human endeavors, and to further testify of the usefulness of thought, imagination, and images in the use of words and quotes, I will quote a few more extremely worthy statements of worthy principles by worthy minds.

:To quote the current Wikipedia and Wikiquote introduction: [[Censorship]] is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

:Wikis were admirably devised to MINIMIZE the presence of the overly constrained and controlling impulses of groups and individuals most prone to rely upon static and dull understandings and misunderstandings of rules and regulations, and to permit those with most extensive and expansive ideas to have much more opportunity for indicating them and developing them without needless hindrance. Wikis of many types persist in doing so, despite many forms of constraining and corruptive influences, and I trust that they will continue to do so, despite occasional afflictions of short-sightedness, and tendencies towards pre-emptive censorship or limitations on the presentations of ideas.

:* '''The first condition of [[progress]] is the removal of censorship.'''
:** [[George Bernard Shaw]], in his Preface to [[w:Mrs. Warren's Profession|Mrs. Warren's Profession]]''

:* '''Censorship reflects a society's lack of confidence in itself.''' It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Long ago those who wrote our First Amendment charted a different course. They believed a society can be truly strong only when it is truly free. In the realm of expression they put their faith, for better or for worse, in the enlightened choice of the people, free from the interference of a policeman's intrusive thumb or a judge's heavy hand.
:** [[Potter Stewart]], in his dissenting opinion in ''Ginzburg et al v. United States'' (1965)

:* Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme.
:** [[Ray Bradbury]], in ''Fahrenheit 451'', Coda (1979 edition)

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:1933-may-10-berlin-book-burning.JPG|144px]] Our [[liberty]] depends on the [[freedom of the press]], and that cannot be limited without being lost.
| author = Thomas Jefferson
}}
|}

:As I know that not all are inclined to persist in their inclinations to defend liberties where it is obvious there are some groups of people prone to cohere in their opposition to them, those few who do cohere for liberty can sometimes render humanity a valuable service, and I hope that in the times to come, what efforts I have made to help people become more aware and appreciative of the principles of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Joyous Universal Love of ALL will be of great benefit to many, even if many of the ways I have done so remain obscured and unnoticed by most. '''''[[Blessings]]''' to all.'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 06:55, 15 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

:I know some indications of the complexities of my own particular thoughts and ideas, and those of others, in promotion of liberty and praise for it and for the presentations of ideas in general can seem "verbose" — but that is one of the burdens of having a relatively complex mind and the will to keep it complexly alert and active. Something which many of the wise throughout the ages have advised, in various ways. I add this little note to provide just a few more refinements of thought and a further quote that addresses one of the tragedies of current times:

{|
|&emsp;||
{{quote of the day
| quote = In a three-minute stretch between [[commercials]], or in seven hundred [[words]], it is [[impossible]] to present unfamiliar [[thoughts]] or surprising conclusions with the [[argument]] and [[evidence]] required to afford them [[credibility]]. Regurgitation of welcome [[pieties]] faces no such [[problem]].
| author = Noam Chomsky
}}
|}

:''So it goes…'' and so much as they ever can … may ''Blessings'' abound. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 07:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

:: I like this QOTD layout. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 11:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Which? There are two examples of illustrated quotations above (Miranda July and Thomas Jefferson). I prefer the second layout for use on the main page because it doesn't make the QotD box 7–8 times larger (depending on window size) than the QotD itself and push everything else "[[w:below the fold|below the fold]]". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 14:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to the QOTD (Miranda July), not the Jefferson quote. [I don't think Kalki posted the latter with the intent of it being a QOTD layout proposal.] There have certainly been some QOTDs that I found too extravagant, or with too many mystical (large) pictures, but in this QOTD the pictures seem comparatively well chosen and pleasant. However, more generally, I agree that the QOTD should preferably have fewer & smaller pictures (otherwise, it gives readers the wrong impression, this wiki is not really about the pictures), and occupy less space, so that for example the suggested articles in the main page could gain more immediate visibility. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

: It does not. But the person who runs this site thinks otherwise, and also equates "criticism of layout decisions" with "censorship." There is nothing anyone can do about it, except avoid the main page entirely. That's easy enough to do with Google, and I would recommend it as a way around the egregious front page. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 20:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:: "It does not" seems a rather incoherent statement, along with others less obviously so. ''' No one "runs" this site, and despite the regular efforts of a few people to absolutely constrain and control what ''others'' can do, in ways that defy and betray the very principles of promoting extremely diverse and minimally regulated contributions with which most wikis were founded, it remains, on the whole, only incidentally and probably not permanently corrupted by such efforts.''' And despite the often infantile reactions of people in responding to criticism, I certainly do NOT stupidly assert that criticism of layout decisions amounts to "censorship" — I assert that calls for extreme constraint or ELIMINATION of layout decisions by those most involved in the actual work and consideration of options, by a few people who seem most interested in constraining or eliminating MANY options IS censorship. Such constraints as would ''de facto'' constrain others to the sensibilities or desires of a relatively small group of people who seem very inclined to be critical and intolerant of others ideas, and often quite extremely intolerant and punitive towards criticisms of themselves and their ideas. And indeed if such people find the layouts which others have acclaimed so intolerable, they are more than welcome to do as they will and avoid looking at them at all, and avoid considering any ideas or presentations save those they find most comfortable and consoling to their ''precious'' little minds and forms of mindfulness. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I realized afterwards that your lead statement "It does not" probably refers to the leading question presented by the creator of this section, which pretty much ignores all the extensive material added afterward. If one can overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent, and mattered not at all, congratulations of a sort: I have little doubt that you will be able to succeed in keeping your mind "pure and undefiled" by any "alien" ideas such as I or others might introduce. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 21:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
::::(I wonder whether you'll be able to post such pictures again in discussions once [[mw:Flow|Flow]] is enacted.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
:::Kalki, it is possible to read what you write and still disagree with you. I did not ignore "all the extensive material added afterward," nor did I "overlook that much text and imagery as if it were not existent." I read it, which should have been obvious by the fact that I referenced it. I just disagree with you. The QotD does not need 6 images. Your arguments are not persuasive - particularly the one comparing letters to pictures. The fact that you believe your making an argument means that argument is correct is one of the problems here. I am not promoting censorship of ideas. I don't believe the unimaginative are trying to constrain or control anyone. I believe 6 images makes the QotD section too busy, and distracts from the purpose of this site, which is to provide quotes. That's my opinion. But I'm aware that no amount of argument against what you want will change your actions, or your opinion of those who disagree with you as closed-minded troglodytes. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 15:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::Perhaps it might be simplest to get rid of the quotation altogether, and simply post "Mystical pictures of the day"? At present, the quotation tends to get lost amidst all the galactic objects, lights in the forest, rainbows, shadows extending into the distance, hands reaching for the sky, etc., etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 17:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: I fear Kalki's method might actually have the opposite effect of what he is trying to accomplish. In the first place, I am not sure whether these large pictures do a good job in attracting more people's attention to the quote, or if on the contrary people get bored with always seeing the same pattern and flashy colors—which could lead them to not read the quotes of the day, and start avoiding the main page. Now, to be fair, Kalki often tries to choose appropriate, and different, pictures for QOTD. But Macspaunday's parody of Kalki's preference for mystical imagery might actually point to a poverty of thought that is much contrary to Kalki's sincere intention of introducing people to new thoughts and ideas. At least speaking for myself, when I read a quote for the first time, I prefer to be free to imagine (and produce my own imagery of) what the quote represents, to me, on my own. Kalki might wish to present his interpretation of the quote to others, but this (unintentionally?) interferes and breaks ''in advance'' my own interpretation. It's like being forced to watch a movie adaptation (good or bad) before reading a book. I don't know how that's compatibly with the principles of Freedom Kalki defends. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: On the subject of what attracts people. Taking a quick look at our "rival" sites, apparently ''[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes goodreads]'' doesn't have nor use subjective pictures at all, and they seem to attract more people than Wikiquote (the same is true for ''brainyquote'', which in fact doesn't present any pictures). Of course these sites are not good in many aspects (e.g., sourcing of quotes), but perhaps ''goodreads''' policy to only present a small picture of the author next to the quote is something we could adopt. I'm almost sure that if they started adding large colorful shining pictures next to quotes, their viewership would decline. Perhaps giving a more professional look to our main page would help attract (and keep) more visitors. I recently made two simple suggestions for the QOTD, [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/January 28, 2014|here]] and [[Wikiquote talk:Quote of the day/February 20, 2014|here]], don't know if they would be better. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. Obviously the QOTD alone is not even remotely responsible for overall less viewership, Wikiquote has many other—much more serious—problems, in content, navigation, etc. (and I repeat that I think Kalki has done more for the betterment of WQ than any other editor, my comments here are not meant to blame him, just offer constructive criticism. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Indeed. I appreciate Kalki's desire to make an artistic presentation, but would advise him to consider the artistry of [[w:Minimalism|Minimalism]]. Hmmm, now I see that we have no page on [[Minimalism]]. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 22:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: (We do now.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:::::: DanielTom has offered some excellent and indisputable wisdom here. He's absolutely right that Goodreads et al. go wrong in ways that WQ goes right: WQ has sourced quotations, warnings about false and doubtful attributions, etc. - and WQ gets hundreds of things right that Goodreads et al. conspicuously get wrong. But Goodreads et al. ''look'' vastly more authoritative than WQ because they don't illustrate hundreds of different quotations with Hoag's Object, heart-shaped stones held in the hand, etc., etc. They ''look'' authoritative in ways that WQ, sadly, does not. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:08, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::::::: Why do those websites attract more traffic than WQ? This is a topic that needs research, but I believe the main reason is that they present the best quotes right at the top of their pages. ''goodreads'', for example, has a voting system whereby the most liked quotes appear at the top. This is much different from WQ, where the readers often have to read through a sea of quotes just to find an occasional gem. (And this is particularly true in long theme pages, such as "[[Love]]".) The only way we can solve this in our current system is, believe it or not, through the use of pictures, to highlight the best quotes. (I suspect many of our readers only read through long pages by simply looking at picture captions.) So, at least to my mind, pictures can actually be the solution, not the problem. However, to be sure, I also share concerns about pictures in excess, irrelevant to the text, or too subjective that they apply and appear everywhere. In addition, although I might for example worship every single word Shakespeare wrote, placing a picture for every one of his quotes would not attract more people's attention to them, it might very well just do the opposite. This seems to be what is happening in articles that are flooded with walls of pictures. So pictures can become the problem when they are too many, and so go ''counter'' to their function of ''highlighting key quotes''. I think this is something everyone can recognize. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 12:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
::: Leaving aside the consideration of typographic glyphs as images, leaving aside the question of whether Kalki speaks for the "[[w:silent majority|silent majority]]" (or is, in some sense, a multitude incarnate), leaving aside the small mindedness of mere mortals overwhelmed by the grandeur of Kalki's idealism; Kalki actually does offer a reason to support using a multiplicity of images. To wit:  ''to have much more opportunity for indicating extensive and expansive ideas''. Chomsky's quoted remark about the limitations of short-form exposition is certainly correct: some ideas require a longer form for their successful exposition. Toward that end, using the very rough approximation that a picture is worth a thousand words, one might seek an opportunity to indicate extensive and expansive ideas with an essay of six thousand words. However, bearing in mind that ''the art of quotation is generally characterized by [[brevity]]'', it would be incongruous to seek such opportunities in the pages of Wikiquote. Kalki's defense of the photomontage as a form of expression begs the question of whether the exposition of extensive and expansive ideas belongs on the main page. I think that it does not. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

:::: Another way of thinking about Ningauble's point is this: Imagine that the quotation of the day is typically surrounded by six quotations from the Bible or Shakespeare - and that many of them had also been used to surround completely different quotations on previous days. That would certainly be a long-form exposition, but would it be appropriate to the front page, and would it show respect to the authors of the quotations? I'd imagine that many of the authors would think they were being less than respectfully represented by a page that surrounds a sentence or two that they wrote with thousands of words from the Bible or Shakespeare. I'd imagine they would think the same way about seeing their quotations surrounded by pictures of clouds, rainbows, galactic spirals, prisms, sculpted hearts, nineteenth-century genre paintings, etc. - [[User:Macspaunday|Macspaunday]] ([[User talk:Macspaunday|talk]]) 01:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
: Amidst many activities with concerns elsewhere, I have now examined the above comments, and will probably do so again, before posting some responses to some recent statements and actions. I am considering many options of what sorts of rebuttals to make, as I again leave for elsewhere, for there are plainly many complexities to consider in the assertions and attitudes of those who seek to impose what they perceive as admirable "simplicity" on the options of ''others'' in quite complicated ways, for quite complicated and varied reasons. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
::Why bother? From your attitude in that very comment we can be pretty confident what your response will be. We cannot discuss what the community deems appropriate on this site as long as it might have some impact on you having your way. It's not very complicated at all. You will do what you want, and any discussion to the contrary is us (no matter how great a majority we are) trying to "impose" something on you. The discussion will go nowhere as long as you continue to ignore that somebody's opinions aside from yours might have merit. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 17:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I am always willing to acknowledge merit, where it can be found, and to actually bother about a lot of things others do not, where vitally important forms of truth are at stake; and you are actually right to some very limited extent, though demonstrably wrong in others, for you can rely upon my responses being quite contrary to those which promote various forms of suppression of various forms of intelligent exposition by various forms of arrogant misuse of force.
::: '''[[Ironies]] and profound forms of [[stupidity]] about them certainly abound in this world, in ways I will actually decline to always specify, out of consideration of the plainly delicate and fragile sensibilities of some, and the need to discreetly retain some forms of [[knowledge]] to be revealed in more effective ways than those of presently declaring them openly to some of the most plainly ignorant, intolerant and insensitive people presently active here.''' I will actually specify that many of the most belligerently intolerant and oppressive of people are often desperate to find ways to convince others of the certainty of their numerical or absolute moral superiority, and genuinely believe such things themselves. '''I am certainly NOT quite so full of shallow and stupid certitude about many things as you certainly are trying to make me seem, in ways I will concede I perceive to be quite shallow and obvious.'''
::: I must say that for someone who had as yet only started a topic of derision of my work, and had made only 3 edits, all specifically in derision of me, who has contributed over 100,000, armed with all the authority of "collective identity" with a few others of the most intolerant here which those 3 edits provided you, declared in rather comically imperious tones of ''command'' as a member of "the collective", of those most avid to control OTHERS: "You must realize that if your actions are guided by what you do and do not believe proper, then you are constraining what we (the collective we) can DO and SAY in terms of this project. You are imposing your will on others."
::: I am not actually intimidated very much at all by such remarkably clear examples of the presumptive arrogance of the most intolerant and eagerly oppressive of people; '''I actually expect many of them to eventually provide prominent and long remembered examples to many students and researches of psychological and sociological processes, of significant aberrations in the social processes, towards subtle and overt forms of anti-social oppression and suppression of dissent.'''
::: Actually from the moment I first read those words, I honestly perceived you might be engaged in one of the most remarkably arrogant, petty and presumptuous forms of pretension and deceitfulness or delusions which I had yet encountered on this wiki, and I actually strongly suspect that you could very likely be one of the sporadic trolls who primarily aim to disrupt the normal processes of wikis and their development. '''Of course I am quite willing to concede that I could be entirely wrong''', and you are not actually such a paltry twerp, and even without much actual evidence in support of such an assessment, could conceivably even be a generally mild and benevolent researcher in various social sciences, including those of how people respond in positive and negative ways to various forms of generally positive and intelligent presentations of various ideas or indications of the beauty of the world, and in this case you are assuming the guise of an intolerant belligerent twerp or troll to provide an example for all eternity of how easily swayed to paths of oppressive stupidity some people can be, much like those in the psychology experiments of [[Solomon Asch]], [[Stanley Milgram]], and [[Philip Zimbardo]]. '''IF that were the actually the case here I would actually have to assert that I consider it an extremely unethical and misguided practice and strongly disagree with the adoption of such vile guises by anyone, even in pretenses, for ostensibly worthy psychological research and investigations, and forms of direct action in social involvement.'''
::: Though not quite as pessimistic as he sometimes was, I have long agreed to a great extent with many of the observations of the intelligent [[Heroically]] [[Angelic]] [[Humanist]] [[Absurdist]], [[Kurt Vonnegut]] including that in ''Mother Night'': '''We are what we [[pretend]] to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'''
::: As I have remained busier than I had anticipated I would be in various complex concerns, and it actually looks like I will continue to be for a while yet, I am willing to patiently consider many options and aspects of many situations, before I respond more vigorously here, to what I believe to be many rather ironically stupid developments in the audacity of those who would suppress and censor the indication of thoughts and ideas.
::: As I have to get busy doing other things now, I will simply close with a profound quote by one of many profound philosophers who I have long admired:
{{quote of the day
| quote = ''Every [[morning]] I shall concern myself anew about the boundary Between the [[love]]-[[deed]]-'''Yes''' and the [[power]]-deed-'''No''' And pressing forward [[honor]] [[reality]]. We cannot avoid Using power, Cannot escape the compulsion To afflict the [[world]], '''So let us, cautious in diction And mighty in contradiction, Love powerfully.'''''
| author = Martin Buber
}}
::: ''[[Blessings]]'' to all. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

::::Name-calling and cries of censorship, while hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority. Who could have seen that coming?
::::I'll admit that my attempt to improve the wiki in this particular way has been lost, although I'd encourage others to continue the battle. And especially, if you are reading this and agree, I would encourage you to register and to speak up. Even if your contribution will be dismissed (publicly, anyway - privately I have received kudos), if you desire the improvement of this project you should contribute in any way you see necessary, including this one. [[User:TreeRol|TreeRol]] ([[User talk:TreeRol|talk]]) 22:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
::::: You are plainly mistaken if you think I am "hiding behind some kind of absolute moral authority." I am a rather [[anarchistic]] [[Absurdist]] and though I might accept that in some ways there could be such absolutes, I reject notions that any mortal mind has the capacity or comprehension to absolutely determine or formulate such with absolutely reliable accuracy. To each their own pieces of the puzzles... ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 22:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== Universal Language Selector will be enabled by default again on this wiki by 21 February 2014 ==

<div class="mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
On January 21 2014 the MediaWiki extension [[mw:Universal Language Selector|Universal Language Selector]] (ULS) was [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Jan2014|disabled]] on this wiki. A new preference was added for logged-in users to turn on ULS. This was done to prevent slow loading of pages due to ULS webfonts, a behaviour that had been observed by the Wikimedia Technical Operations team on some wikis.

We are now ready to enable ULS again. The temporary preference to enable ULS will be removed. A [[commons:File:ULS-font-checkbox.png|new checkbox]] has been added to the Language Panel to enable/disable font delivery. This will be unchecked by default for this wiki, but can be selected at any time by the users to enable webfonts. This is an interim solution while we improve the feature of webfonts delivery.

You can read the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Announcement Feb2014|announcement]] and the [[mw:Universal Language Selector/Upcoming Development Plan|development plan]] for more information. Apologies for writing this message only in English. Thank you. [[m:User_talk:Runab WMF|Runa]]

</div>


: No apology is needed. Visitors here are not required to master the subtle art of translating from English to Quotish. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
:: Heh. [[User:PiRSquared17|PiRSquared17]] ([[User talk:PiRSquared17|talk]]) 04:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

== Amendment to the Terms of Use ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
Hello all,

Please join a discussion about a [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|proposed amendment]] to the [[wmf:Terms of Use|Wikimedia Terms of Use]] regarding undisclosed paid editing and we encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please translate this statement if you can, and we welcome you to translate the proposed amendment and introduction. Please see [[:m:Terms of use/Paid contributions amendment|the discussion on Meta Wiki]] for more information. Thank you! [[:m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 22:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Einstein was a Humanist? ==

I've tried to edit this but another editor has reverted it, so I'd appreciate some more opinions. IMHO it's thoroughly misleading to describe Einstein as a Humanist: a) he never self-identified as a Humanist; b) in Einstein's day the Humanist movement did not exist in the form that it does today (i.e. that of a 'secular religion'), so the term applied to Einstein is meaningless; c) his stated beliefs are not in accord with those of Humanism. [[User:HPotato|HPotato]] ([[User talk:HPotato|talk]]) 10:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
: '''OMFG.''' Omnipresent [[Mystical]] Fair [[Goodness]] ever abides, even amidst all the petty, pretentious and delusive perspectives and outright lies that are often presented AS IF they were fact, or supreme facts, when to anyone with sufficient [[knowledge]] and [[reason]] they clearly are NOT. It is entirely accurate to state Einstein was a [[Humanist]], as the contentions on '''[[Talk:Albert_Einstein#.27Scientist_and_humanist.27|that talk page]]''' by various editors make abundantly clear. I myself have been acutely aware of much of his involvement in endeavors of [[Humanism]] since I was just a toddler, and probably become aware of his support of the [[w:Ethical movement|Ethical Culture Society]] when I was 5 or 6 years old, and this was part of one of the founding alliances of the wider [[w:International Humanist and Ethical Union |International Humanist and Ethical Union]]. And as another editor pointed out: "'''Einstein served on the advisory board of the [[w:First Humanist Society of New York|First Humanist Society of New York]]. His name appears in Wikipedia's [[w:List of humanists|List of humanists]].'''" ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 14:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: The problem is that words change meanings. Einstein was undoubtedly a humanist in the classical meaning of the word. However, nowadays it is virtually synonymous with atheist, which Einstein was not. It could be argues, therefore, that to call him a humanist is misleading.--[[User:Abramsky|Abramsky]] ([[User talk:Abramsky|talk]]) 15:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::: The word still, in this day, also very much means what it used to mean. What is potentially confusing is that some atheists are also humanists and some humanists are also atheists. What is ''misleading'' is the polemics of certain oppositional groups, such as an insistence in the [[w:New Atheism|New Atheism]] that a "good" humanist must be [[w: Antitheism|''anti''-theist]], and the insistence of [[w:Christian right|right-wing political factions]] that all humanists are Godless heathens. "Humanist" and "atheist" are not synonyms: many atheists are not humanists, and many humanists are not atheists. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: '''Thanks for making that point.''' I had written several paragraphs yesterday elaborating on that and related points, but decided to take time to reflect and temper my observations before posting anything here. As it stands I have decided to drop all but the first paragraph, and might bring up other things elsewhere on my own talk pages in coming weeks. Here is part of the first paragraph of what I stated on seeing this yesterday:
::::: '''Of course words change meanings, with time, in human society — as a person familiar with [[history]] I recognize that. As a person familiar with many aspects of the [[sciences]] and [[disciplines]] of [[psychology]] and [[semiotics]] I also recognize they ALWAYS have various nuances and shades of meanings that can and MUST differ between human individuals, ALL of the time.''' KNOWING this I consider it extremely inconsiderate and profoundly wrongful to seek to constrain definitions of words to such uses as are PLAINLY and profoundly WRONG, easily misleading, and ''needlessly'' confusing upon vastly different ranges of issues. I believe that such IS the case in ACCEPTING "Humanism" as a near-synonym for "Atheism" as I assert many ignorant, confused, asinine, arrogant and rationally and ethically incompetent theists AND atheists are prone to do, in order to promote many aspects of their own particular ranges of agenda.
:::: And with that I get back to work on the adding of material to the project, before having to leave again soon. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 17:42, 31 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

== Call for project ideas: funding is available for community experiments ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">

[[File:IEG_key_blue.png|100px|right]]

''I apologize if this message is not in your language. Please help translate it.''

Do you have an idea for a project that could improve your community? [[m:Grants:IEG|Individual Engagement Grants]] from the Wikimedia Foundation help support individuals and small teams to organize experiments for 6 months. You can get funding to try out your idea for online community organizing, outreach, tool-building, or research to help make {{SITENAME}} better. In March, we’re looking for new project proposals.

Examples of past Individual Engagement Grant projects:
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Build_an_effective_method_of_publicity_in_PRChina|Organizing social media for Chinese Wikipedia]] ($350 for materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Visual_editor-_gadgets_compatibility|Improving gadgets for Visual Editor]] ($4500 for developers)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/The_Wikipedia_Library|Coordinating access to reliable sources for Wikipedians]] ($7500 for project management, consultants and materials)
*[[m:Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision|Building community and strategy for Wikisource]] (€10000 for organizing and travel)

'''[[m:Grants:IEG#ieg-applying|Proposals]] are due by 31 March 2014.''' There are a number of ways to [[m:Grants:IEG|get involved]]!

Hope to have your participation,

--[[m:User:Sbouterse (WMF)|Siko Bouterse, Head of Individual
Engagement Grants, Wikimedia Foundation]] 19:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

</div>


== Buddy Holly Wikiquotes. ==

The Photo you have on that page is not Buddy Holly but a Holly impersonator.
{{unsigned|164.165.145.21}}
: I have lowered the prominence of the disputed image, which I agree is dubious, and added some that are clearly of [[Buddy Holly]] to the page. I might add a few more later. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC) + tweak

== Language links (interwiki) via Wikidata are coming ==

<div class="plainlinks mw-content-ltr" lang="en" dir="ltr">
[[File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg|150px|right]]
Hey everyone :)

I just wanted to let you know that Wikiquote will be the next sister project to be supported by Wikidata. Initially you will be able to maintain the links between the language editions of Wikiquote on Wikidata. This means you will no longer have to maintain them in the wiki text of each article. (However you will still be able to if you want to and local links will overwrite the ones from Wikidata in that case.) We plan to enable this on April 8th for you. At a later point (depending on how this initial roll-out goes) you will also get access to the other data on Wikidata like the date of birth of a scientist for example.

If you have any questions please come to [[d:Wikidata:Wikiquote]] where we'll try to answer all of them. If you're already familiar with Wikidata and want to act as an ambassador please add your name to the list there to help people find you.

I'm looking forward to welcoming you all to Wikidata.

Cheers
[[:d:User:Lydia Pintscher (WMDE)|Lydia Pintscher]] 21:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
</div>


== Bot ==

I have requested Bot permissions at [[Wikiquote:Bots]]. Thanks! --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

== What is up with the game-cleanup template? ==

Not sure what the heck is going on, but the page for [[Grim Fandango]] lists a whole bunch of… buses? I think?

Anyway, I traced the problem back to the [[Template:Game-cleanup|game-cleanup template]], but that page isn't editable so I'm not really sure what to do. – Guido del Confuso, 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

: Well, I just checked and it's fixed now, so never mind, I guess. Unless someone saw this and fixed it, in which case, thanks! — [[User:Guido del Confuso|Guido del Confuso]] ([[User talk:Guido del Confuso|talk]]) 06:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
:: It was a simple case of vandalism, which has been reverted. I have protected the underlying "highly visible template". ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Indefinitely blocked IP addresses ==

Hi, this proposal is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
# The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at [[Special:BlockList]].
# Amending [[Wikiquote:Blocking policy#Anonymous and open proxies]] to discourage future indefinite blocks, with proposed language changes like adding "Administrators are strongly discouraged/prohibited/advised against indefinitely blocking IP addresses".

As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
# IP addresses should generally never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
# ''In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, such as for open proxies, the '''Meta Stewards have already implemented a near-indefinite global block for it'''.''

Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 05:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': I agree that, because IP address assignments tend to be volatile, they ought not be indefinitely blocked except in special cases such as open proxies or very long term abuse. Some of our administrators do occasionally indef-block an address, and other administrators occasionally, but very infrequently, go back and expire them. It has been a couple years since anyone scrubbed the [//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=userblocks&{{urlencode:wpOptions[]}}=tempblocks list of indef-blocked IPs] and, as it happens, I recently put it on my to-do list to review them. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 17:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Quote popularity ==

Is there any way to rank the quotes by popularity, and/or how "well-known" they are? Or at least to sort them into buckets from "very popular" to "very unpopular"? I haven't been able to find it by searching around, but perhaps some method could be programmed.

== Proposed optional changes to Terms of Use amendment ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">Hello all, in response to some community comments in the discussion on the amendment to the Terms of Use on undisclosed paid editing, we have prepared two optional changes. Please [[m:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Optional_changes|read about these optional changes on Meta wiki]] and share your comments. If you can (and this is a non english project), please translate this announcement. Thanks! [[m:User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]] 21:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC) </div>


== Formatting sources ==

What's standard procedure on the layout for sourcing quotations on Wikiquote? Currently, [[Wikiquote:Manual of Style]], [[Wikiquote:Sourcing]] and [[Wikiquote:Citing sources]] (still a mess unadapted to Wikiquote since import) doesn't seem to provide a lot of guidance to current practices here. I'm bringing this up because I noticed when I provided the source for a number on quotations on [[Bob Keeshan]], [[User:Geezerbill|Geezerbill]] had already introduced the quote he got from my response ([[Special:Diff/1696976|diff]]) using Wikipedia's <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref> and <references/></nowiki></code> markup, which was later removed by [[User:Kalki|Kalki]] ([[Special:Diff/1696983|diff]]). And basically I was afraid of accidentally stepping into what seemed to be a small dispute over formatting refs, so I reverted myself when I noticed the previous change to the <code><nowiki><ref>...</ref></nowiki></code> layout. I know Kalki's been here longer than I or Geezerbill have been, but I'd like to know the community's opinion on this. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
: I thank you very much for your inquiry. It has made me realize how very much many of our help pages still need simplifying and updating, and despite the tediousness of that and my aversion to prescriptive assertions, I might actually start focusing on that problem within the next month. As to citation styles, though we have come to tolerate many that people have carried over from other types of citation, including those found in footnote and endnote stylings, '''we avoid using footnote citations in favor of interlinear citation.''' Personally, I avoid using templates and do not recommend them, and since the wiki began in 2003 the favored styles have been something along these lines, but with minor adaptations and extensions permitted:

:On Author pages, or pages for an author's works:
:* Quote text.
:** ''Name of Work'' (YYYY) or (Month YYYY) or (DD Month YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
:And on theme pages or in sections where various authors are cited:
:* Quote text.
:** First & Last Name, in ''Name of Work'' (YYYY), Ch. 1 : Chapter title, p. xx
: If there are internet links used, I personally prefer to place them so that the entire title becomes a link, for both aesthetic and practical reasons, as it makes the link cleaner and clearer, but that is not any kind of mandate.

: I am sure there are other things that can be specified, or advised, but that provides a summary of some of the practices and norms which were established early on, and have endured here, despite an increasing importation of other cite styles. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

(edit conflict) @[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: The standard procedure is what you can find on pretty much all Wikiquote pages: we use interlinear, not footnote, citations. This is because WQ considers sources to be an important (and integral) part of quotations. Cheers, [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:Alright, thanks @[[User:Kalki|Kalki]] and @[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: I have a consideration for you though, if you will. Wiktionary uses a similar style of quotation to demonstrate that particular use of a word reflects a particular definition; see [[wikt:go#Verb]] for example, which has "quotations" dropdowns (JavaScript hack from their Common.js) that you can click on to see the full list. Do you mind if I use that as examples of sourcing? [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 11:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
:: There probably could be some use for such a format option here in some regards, but I would not recommend it for standard citations, which I believe should remain visible as interlinear citations. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 12:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

* TeleComNasSprVen is correct about the guidelines not describing the layout conventions that have evolved here over time. Since the earliest days of the project, these were largely ignored in favor of a "learn by example" approach (and even "discover by experiment"). E.g., the use of interlinear citations is ''exemplified'' at [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout]] and [[Wikiquote:Templates]], but the practice is not ''stated or explained'' anywhere except in discussions. It is also rather tricky to give general guidance that avoids unnecessarily arbitrary specifics, as many details of presentation are subject to considerable variation. (E.g., in contrast to Kalki's preferences, I usually link just the title rather than the whole citation, and for serial publications I do not usually parenthesize the date that identifies the issue unless volume and issue numbers are also given. Neither approach is wrong.) I am not exactly volunteering to rewrite the guidelines, but I have long felt that greater clarity would be a good thing for orienting newcomers, and that it would be better if the generic {{tl|cleanup}} templates could link to specific conventions that need to be addressed. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

@[[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]]: You could try using that "dropdown" format here for sources, on one or two pages, as an experiment. I don't think it is one we should adopt, though, because, other than implying that sources are secondary, it would also prevent people from simply saving or copying the article with citations to a Word document, without first having to click on every single box to show the sources. (I guess the same problem would apply to those who'd want to print it.) And having those little boxes in front of every quote could also prove distracting (precisely the thing you want to avoid). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

:In any case, I like a little bit of standardization, and templates go quite some ways toward that, so I threw together a template that might be worth trying out at [[testwiki:Template:Quotation-author]]. I'm also considering moving it to Wikiquote but I'm afraid it might be deleted for lack of consensus. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 07:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Some levels and types of standardization are quite acceptable but templates often become ways to automatically impose some which prevent exceptions and useful variations, thus I generally tend to avoid them when I can. I am not sure there are any desirable advantages to having that template here, and I perceive there might be problems with the overuse of such. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 09:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but in that case we could try stipulating on the template documentation page itself that the template is not the only way to source our quotations. What if instead of making a template "official", everyone had a way of having their quotation-sourcing style attributed to them? For example, <code><nowiki>{{User:TeleComNasSprVen/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> would be attributed to me (in the source code) and uses my style, while <code><nowiki>{{User:Kalki/Template:Quotation-author|quote=quote|title=title...}}</nowiki></code> is attributed to you and uses your style. For one-off exceptions we could always subst/delete the original transclusion and replace it with a custom-made sourcing style, and it would be relatively easy to change all existing tranclusions by modifying the master template. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 10:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

:@[[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]]: Well no, I don't mean exactly in the way they use it, but in terms of the source code and JavaScript/wikitext implementation involved I was thinking of something similar to the template I created above. Try it on a few pages on the testwiki (since they're mostly garbage anyway) and see if you like it.{{unsigned|TeleComNasSprVen}}
::I fear that would be even more confusing to new editors. I think sources should be simply written in plain text, so that in the future they can be easily altered, and corrected, by different people. We already have a few templates (see, e.g., [[:Category:Citation templates]]), but I personally avoid them altogether; it's much easier for me to just write down whatever information I have of the source, without having to follow strict parameters. That's just me, though, maybe other editors see it differently. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I know you object to the use of templates in general, but as a matter of personal style preferences would you, or anyone else in this thread, object to me moving the template from testwiki over here? As I said, since it seems you disapprove of templates in general, instead of moving it to template-space and make it an "official" widely used Wikiquote template, I could relocate it to my userspace to mark it "This is my personal style and others are likely to use their own", at least in the source code. You can implement your own styles using plain wikitext or whatever, but my opinion is in favor of a template, as you can probably guess. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I don't think anyone would object to you moving this new template to your own userspace. (You can even move it to WQ's template space, as far as I'm concerned.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 08:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: On general principles I don't think it is a good idea for articles to transclude things from userspace. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 15:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::: Maybe he could use "subst:"? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

== Proposal: More community involvement in Quote of the Day process ==

'''Proposal:'''
#I would like to propose we the community discuss having more involvement, as a community, in the Quote of the Day process for both (1) Selecting quotes and (2) Layout of quotes and images, on the [[Main Page]].
#Selection of quotes: It appears that at present quotes are voted on at individual date pages, example [[March 20]], and then selected by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.
#Layout of quotes and images on [[Main Page]]: It appears that at present, Layout of quotes and images in the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]] is determined by one user since 2003, that is {{user|Kalki}}.

(Side note: [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalki&diff=1698258&oldid=1698219 helpfully pointed out that I am genuinely doing my best to conduct myself with a professional conduct during this debate.] I would ask others to do the same, thank you.)

'''Some of my general ideas:'''

#Selection of quotes: As long as this takes into consideration opinions of the Wikiquote community at large, and the present system seems to do that, this seems okay. Not idea, but alright. Perhaps instead of one user we the community could elect a Committee of three (3) users for the final selection of the quotes, so that an odd number could help resolve disputes if and when they arise.
#Layout of Quote of the day section: This is where I have differing opinions with the current layout formatting. I truly believe there is: (1) Too many images used, but particularly too many images used that are ''not directly related'' to the quote itself. I feel for the most part images should be of the subject of the quote, the individual himself/herself that first stated the quote. (2) I feel that there is generally too much wikilinking-of-words-within-the-quote, and that this detracts from the reading of the quote, itself.

What do others think? Would it be best to move this discussion to a subpage for further debate by the community?

I'd like to move to establish a community process for determining Layout of Quotes for the ''Quote of the day'' section of the [[Main Page]], that better takes into account input of the community, instead of one individual.

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
:Some initial thoughts: I feel that having a more robust process for selecting the QoD is an admirable goal, but being realistic I feel that we may have problems with participation. I for one used to participate in the voting process, but found that I was often unable to find the time to do so and still manage all the other tasks I wished to do here to improve other areas. I sincerely doubt I would have the time to participate on a daily basis. I think that the legacy of having Kalki perform much of the work simply grew out of the lack of available others to help with the large effort required to keep producing them. That being said, I do not have a problem with trying something new - I just fear that (as with many other discussions or ideas) we really do not have enough active editors that might participate. I don't want to discourage new ideas, but that's my initial thought.

:As to some of your other points, I do agree that there are times when there seem to be too many images and that these tend to overshadow the quote. But I also believe that this is the exception and not the rule. I believe that in some of the recent discussion, a loose rule of approximately four images was generally deemed acceptable - and is something I would also support. I also agree that the selected images should be related to the quote, but I am not so disposed to pose strict limits such that only the author of the quote is pictured. Although on occasion I have disagreed with selected images (and if this happens, I would rather address that on a case by case basis - maybe we should require the proposed layout to be posted at least a week in advance so others can comment? - Just thinking out loud) I have not often found the images selected to be all that bad - the [[Wikiquote:Image use policy|Image use policy]] does allow for more latitude than just the author. Finally, I do not have a problem with the wikilinking - in fact I consider this to be a positive aspect since it leads readers to explore other pages on the site (and has been common practice on all WQ pages for as long as I can remember). ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Okay, thank you, I respect your opinions. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 15:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I tend to agree with [[User:UDScott|UDScott]]'s analysis. I view QOTD as ephemeral, and am just not particularly interested in being involved in that process. I have suggested a quote or two over the years, but working on it day in and day out seems like a grind, and I'm glad someone else is willing to take up the task at all. That said, I certainly don't think it would ''harm'' the process for more editors to be involved in suggesting quotes to be used or evaluating suggestions that have been made. As for layout, I generally agree that we should have fewer images (one on each side should be enough), and I like UDScott's suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review. As for wikilinking, I also think that this is a good thing for our project, and would actually like to see a ''lot'' more of it, not just in QOTD, but in our articles generally. While we are not an advertising click farm that profits by getting people to view more pages, we do want the reader to have the best possible sense of the breadth of our project, and the greatest ease in jumping to other pages that might be of interest. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
::Thank you. So moving forward, we have three editors so far that support the suggestion of having the layout presented in advance for community review, and having the community more involved in the layout process. -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 20:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: '''The layout ''usually'' is present for review a day or two in advance, and I will endeavor to have some ideas presented even earlier in the future, as they often have been.''' I had to laugh out loud a bit here, because in rather typical fashion, you choose to ''ignore'' what ''praise'' or ''recognition'' my past presentations have generally had for over 10 years of nearly daily efforts here and ONLY emphasize what you wish to emphasize, which you reiterate in ways which, to the casual scanner of the comments, could make it seem previous responses were primarily critical of them, and present them in such ways as seem designed to develop more means to actively constrain or counter my involvement in various ways. I will note that over the years I believe that I have received far more praise for my efforts from casual visitors to the site and regular editors than disrespectful criticism, though some of the few people most prone to that have gradually accumulated into a small but relatively effective pack in their efforts to constrain the options available not only to me, but to everyone, and they have done this, thus far with relatively little notice or opposition from people more inclined to appreciate and include imagery in their presentations.

: '''Despite occasional procrastination or tardiness, I have ''usually'' had presentations ready at least a couple days in advance, and yet I am certainly against any authorization that these simply be butchered by specious arguments or assertions by those not interested in doing much layout work themselves.''' Though there are certainly further complications which could arise, opening up the processes more is not something I certainly am NOT adamantly against, but '''IF things are going to become more formally complicated and there is to be some final contestation for final layout I say it should be without any pre-determined constraints, beyond the legally necessary ones such as have ''always'' been recognized. IF there are alternate layouts to be proposed, by anyone, they should probably be presented on the talk pages of the related date, and if it seems there is a need for a vote between any alternatives we should let the most popular layout, within actual legal limits, become the chosen one, without PRIOR constraints and conditions of WHAT and HOW or WHY it can be presented.''' I know this might seem a somewhat frightening proposition to those who most seek to actively constrain the options available to others, and of course greater participation might not be what some people are actually after, and they merely seek to subtly or overtly diminish the options of others to devise layouts and present them — but I believe that opening up even more layout options is far more fair and likely to produce actually GOOD results, and more participation, IF that is truly what people are in any way after, than simply allowing more ways a few people, noticeably hostile or critical to my work in the past, to simply ''butcher it down'' on a nearly daily basis, as a means of further personal harassment of an avid worker. '''THAT of course is something I believe any person of genuine integrity MUST oppose as a betrayal of the principles with which wiki projects were founded, and also of the more general [[ethical]] [[principles]] of [[Justice]], [[Unity]], [[Liberty]] and [[Joyous]] [[Universal]] [[Love]].''' ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 23:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with UDScott's comments 100%. I would just add, that Kalki is ''very'' receptive to QOTD suggestions; for example, [[Wikiquote:Quote of the day/March 20, 2014|today's QOTD]] (that you can currently see on the main page) was actually suggested by me. Although more participation would be welcome, the reality is that very few people participate in the voting process, or suggest quotes. This is unlikely to change. Kalki's work in this area is actually very much commendable, and how he has consistently found the time and energy to keep up with the QOTDs for so long, is simply incredible. Although I enjoyed reading through some pages where quotes are suggested, and voting in them, I must say most of them are filled with unmemorable (bad) quotes, and even selecting the "best" of them is a challenge. I believe the fault here is that quotes are being suggested for the days of birth of authors, so there are some days, that don't have a single good quote. If I had any criticism of Kalki's selections, it would be that he sometimes doesn't choose the very best quotes, simply because they are too short. (I think he prefers longer ones because they give him more liberty in the selection of pictures.) I disagree with BD's comment: the QOTD is not "ephemeral", the main page is ''by far'' Wikiquote's most viewed page. It is how WQ presents itself to newcomers. For this reason, other than the avoidance of New Age imagery, I would really like to see sources being presented along the quotes in the main page, which would be a more proper representation of WQ. This could be easily implemented, if Kalki could see, that presenting sources is not aesthetically displeasing. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
: I actually often choose longer quotes because they often are more extensive in their expressions of ideas and thoughts than some of the briefer ones that are available. I certainly have no aversion to short quotes, and there are many good short ones which I have chosen and have long been among my favorites — but many of the more notable short ones available have already been used. I have often stated that I generally dislike the idea of having the citations in the layouts, because though simple reference to the titles of works are used if they have a separate page, all of the technical info is available on the author's or the work's page, which are linked to, and this can often be aesthetically detrimental or cumbersome in an otherwise appealing layout. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 00:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
:: I just want to add that I mean ephemeral in the sense of the QOTD being fleeting - there one day, replaced the next. I prefer to work on permanent installations. I'm not saying that QOTD is unimportant, merely that it is impermanent, and I prefer to direct my energies towards the permanent. I would also like to suggest that, in order to preserve resources and have a contingency available in case there is a dispute, there's no reason that we can't reuse some old quotes and layouts for QOTD. We've been doing this for many years now, and I think that we can grab a handful of the best examples that were used, say, five or six years ago, and have them as a standby. No visitor is likely to remember our quotes from that long ago. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 01:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:The sad fact is that no matter how much you want to try and revive a process, you can't force volunteers from a volunteer-driven website to work on an area that they have no knowledge nor interest in. I think community participation in the QotD process has always been open, the problem merely is the community has no interest in said participation. A related problem is investment of our limited time and proper allocation of volunteer resources. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 02:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: In response to a few of BD2412's remarks, I would point out, that aside from a very few cases of ''accidental'' repetition, and one case I recall where the layout chosen and displayed was late in the day replaced with a layout from the year before in an act of censorship of ideas by another editor, there has been no deliberate repetition of layouts, though with limited imagery of some authors, a few used with new quotes probably are similar to those used in the past with others. The archives of [[QOTD by month|QOTD by month]] provide a record of the past layouts, since November 2007, and some other pages list the selections prior to those. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 02:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
::: I am aware that there has been virtually no repetition, and commend the work that has produced original work to this point. However, we have the option of doing some recycling. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 02:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Numbers: the main page is viewed by over [http://stats.grok.se/en.q/latest/Main_Page 10,000] people every day. I don't think we need to repeat quotes, but the fixation with authors' birth-dates rather than with presenting the very best, most brilliant, quotes we have, sometimes (in some days) leaves much to be desired. I don't know how Kalki feels about this. We could also try to be more flexible, and change the QOTD when someone notable passes away, as a tribute, or when a speech receives great attention, (e.g. [[Ellen Page]]'s,) though there could be some objections to this (''test of time'', etc). ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 10:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::: I believe that the ''guideline'' of preferring relationships to the date has been useful in preventing or minimizing floods of repetition of similar suggestions or sources over extensive periods of days. It has never been treated as an ''absolute'' rule, and where significant authors have no known birth or death dates, there is often a strong case for these. I have sometimes thought of having some days of the weeks or month designated as giving a greater weight to ancient authors, but never came up with what I perceived to be an entirely workable scheme for such. Until 2009, when my long-standing and never-misused admin status was removed, and last minute alterations were no longer reliably possible, I ''often'' changed QOTDs at the last moment, to something appropriate to the circumstances of prominent person's deaths. This option is one I believe I have not exercised since that time, even when the pages were not yet locked, believing I lacked any "authority" or authorization to improvise beyond the suggestions ranked highly on the suggestion pages. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 11:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

: I agree that the level of participation is a callenge for this process. Note how few people participate in ranking quotes on a regular basis. I recall at least one occasion when Kalki made a [[Wikiquote:Village pump archive 25#QOTD problems|plea for more participation]], which produced a modest increase for only a brief time. In my own experience, when I did try to participate on a regular basis it became rather tedious after a while, particularly since there were often a large number of candidates to review and since, as DanielTom notes, a lot of then were not very good. There is a tendency for mediocre and poor suggestions to accumulate and remain after the better ones have been used and removed from the list. I approve of Kalki's idea for posting layouts farther in advance so they can be reviewed and discussed. A day ir two is not really enough time unless one makes a habit of reviewing them every single day. One week might be more convenient. This small step would make the process open to to broader participation for those occasions when people do want to participate. A more structured system might be considered if and when actual participation reaches a level that could benefit from organization. Making it an open process is the most important step. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 16:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:: Kalki keeps Wikiquote fresh and updated with the daily quotes provided by him. Everyone can find faults, but is there anyone willing to put into as huge effort as he does? --[[User:Spannerjam|Spannerjam]] ([[User talk:Spannerjam|talk]]) 12:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

== Copyrighted franchise quotes ==

Hello, I'm brand new here, so please forgive me for asking this if I'm missing something really obvious, but how do we handle copyrighted franchise quotes (i.e. Pokedex entries or trading card flavor text)? I'm not seeing any here, so I'd like to add them, but since they're copyrighted, I'm not sure. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 03:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
: Are they actually ''quoted'' by anyone? Are they attested in a source other than the card itself, or the manufacturer's website? This sounds pretty close to [[advertising slogans]], for which we have imposed a requirement of third-party quoting, to avoid promotional exploitation here. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::So if I can find a third-party source besides quote collections, then they're okay? Is there a way to add said sources? I'm not seeing any on the pages I've seen so far. [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 04:15, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: I suppose you could go by the format in [[advertising slogans]], or see [[English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb)]], since we have a similar reporting requirement for proverbs. [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 12:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: Alright, thanks! [[User:Supernerd11|Supernerd11]] ([[User talk:Supernerd11|talk]]) 17:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] title discussion ==

A proposal has been made at Wikipeda, at [[w:Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#Requested move 8]], to change the title of the article, "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to "Hillary Clinton". I presume that if that move succeeds, we would likewise move our [[Hillary Rodham Clinton]] page to [[Hillary Clinton]]. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

== Changes to the default site typography coming soon ==

<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr">
This week, the typography on Wikimedia sites will be updated for all readers and editors who use the default "Vector" skin. This change will involve new serif fonts for some headings, small tweaks to body content fonts, text size, text color, and spacing between elements. The schedule is:

* '''April 1st''': non-Wikipedia projects will see this change live
* '''April 3rd''': Wikipedias will see this change live

This change is very similar to the "Typography Update" Beta Feature that has been available on Wikimedia projects since November 2013. After several rounds of testing and with feedback from the community, this Beta Feature will be disabled and successful aspects enabled in the default site appearance. Users who are logged in may still choose to use another skin, or alter their [[Special:MyPage/vector.css|personal CSS]], if they prefer a different appearance. Local [[MediaWiki:Common.css|common CSS]] styles will also apply as normal, for issues with local styles and scripts that impact all users.

For more information:
* [[mw:Typography refresh|Summary of changes and FAQ]]
* [[mw:Talk:Typography refresh|Discussion page]] for feedback or questions
* [https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/03/27/typography-refresh/ Post] on blog.wikimedia.org

-- [[m:User:Steven (WMF)|Steven Walling]] (Product Manager) on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation's [[mw:Design|User Experience Design]] team
</div>


: The more open font in the body text will take a little getting used to, but it could be worse. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:09, April Fools 2014 (UTC)
:: +1. (My initial thought was: "Let's hope this is an April Fool's joke!", but it's not ''that'' bad.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 19:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I actually find the text in "diff" pages much more legible. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 19:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

== Wikibreak. ==

I am feeling a bit burned out. I'll be back in a week or so. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:28, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

== vandalism ==

As a relatively new user looking at [[Special:ListGroupRights]] I've just noticed that only administrators and bots automatically have their edits patrolled, which means that there is no way to filter out edits by experienced users from RC. Why don't you give <tt>autopatrolled</tt>/<tt>patroller</tt> rights to non-admin users (by creating a user group)?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    09:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote:Village pump/Header

2014-04-03T09:12:55Z

FDMS4: below → above …

[[Category:Wikiquote discussion|{{PAGENAME}}]]
[[Category:Wikiquote|Village pump]]
{{shortcut|[[WQ:VP]]}}
{| class="plainlinks"
| style="text-align: right; font-size: x-small;" | [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Wikiquote:Village pump/Header|action=edit}} edit the header]
|}
<div style="padding: 5px; font-size: 150%; text-align:center;">'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Wikiquote:Village_pump|action=edit&section=new}} Create a new topic]'''</div>

<noinclude>
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[[ru:Викицитатник:Форум/Шапка]]
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[[bs:Wikicitat:Čaršija]]
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</includeonly>
{{Wikiquote:Discussions}}
 
{{Village pump archives}}
[[Wikiquote:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] and baffled oldtimers! If you have a question about Wikiquote and how it works, please '''click the link above "create a new topic"''', and then you can place your submission '''at the bottom of the list''', and someone will attempt to answer it for you. (If you have a question about who said what, go to the [[Wikiquote:reference desk|reference desk]] instead.)

Before asking a question, check if it's answered by the [[Wikiquote:FAQ]] or other pages linked from [[Wikiquote:Help]]. Latest news on the project would be available at [[Wikiquote:Community portal]] and [[Wikiquote:Announcements]].

Before answering a newcomer's question abruptly, consider rereading [[Wikiquote:Please do not bite the newcomers|Please do not bite the newcomers]].

Questions and answers will not remain on this page indefinitely (otherwise it would very soon become too long to be editable). After a period of time with no further activity, information will be moved to other relevant sections of Wikiquote, (such as the FAQ pages) or placed in one of the village pump archives if it is of general interest, or deleted. Please consider dating and titling your discussions so as to facilitate this.

----

User talk:FDMS4

2014-04-02T19:40:38Z

FDMS4: RE

Hello, FDMS4, and welcome to [[Wikiquote:About|English Wikiquote]].
* For a quick overview of what Wikiquote is, read [[Wikiquote:Wikiquote]].
** See also [[Wikiquote:What Wikiquote is not|What Wikiquote is not]] for common activities that Wikiquote does not support.
* To ask for help or to talk with another editor, visit our [[Wikiquote:Village pump|Village pump]].
* To browse Wikiquote, take a look at our [[Wikiquote:Browse|browsing start page]].
* Before creating new articles, consult our [[Wikiquote:Guide to layout|guide]]. You may practice [[Wikiquote:How to edit a page|how to edit a page]] at [[Wikiquote:Sandbox|Sandbox]].
* Please remember to use [[Help:Edit summary|edit summaries]] when editing pages.
* When posting to a discussion, [[Wikiquote:Sign your posts on talk pages|please sign with a date]] by writing four tildes (~~~~) and saving.
* [[w:Wikipedia:Be bold|Be bold]].
Enjoy! --[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:35, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
:Thank you! I've heard that it's a bit difficult to contribute content (quotes) to Wikiquote, so I'll start with (hopefully) making Wikiquote better "metawise". BTW, are signatures with coloured background allowed here?    [[User:FDMS4|FDMS]]  4    19:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

User talk:UDScott

2014-04-02T19:31:41Z

FDMS4: /* Template:Sisterproject */ RE (Thanks!)

{| class="infobox" width="250"
|- align="center"
| [[File:Replacement filing cabinet.svg|40px|Archive]] '''Archives'''
|- align="left"
|
* [[User talk:UDScott/2005|2005 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2006|2006 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2007 part 1|2007 Archive, part 1 (Jan - Jun)]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2007 part 2|2007 Archive, part 2 (Jul - Dec)]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2008|2008 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2009|2009 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2010|2010 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2011|2011 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2012|2012 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2013|2013 Archive]]
|}
{{talkheader}}

== Paul Blopel ==

Excuse me, could u tell me y ur just undoing great faith (not just good faith) edits of mine? [[User:The Dragon Emperor|The Dragon Emperor]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Emperor|talk]])
:I don't understand why you feel the need to add these tags. The listed quotes do provide a source and the quote listed as a caption for an image is also sourced on the page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
: A quote will never be used as a caption for an image on the page unless the quote also appears elsewhere on the page; the citation should be with that appearance. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 21:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== Protection ==

I already left this message before. Can you or another admin please protect my talk page. It is being met with vandalism again and I don't want to consistently revert the gibberish.

Additionally, please protect or semi-protect the following articles as they are being met with vandalism once again:

*''[[The Sopranos: Season 1]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 2]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 3]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 4]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 5]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 3]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 4]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 5]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 7]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 8]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 9]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bio-Broly]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bojack Unbound]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Wrath of the Dragon]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Emperor Pilaf Saga|Emperor Pilaf Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tournament Saga|Tournament Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Red Ribbon Army Saga|Red Ribbon Army Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: General Blue Saga|General Blue Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Commander Red Saga|Commander Red Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Fortuneteller Baba Saga|Fortuneteller Baba Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tien Shinhan Saga|Tien Shinhan Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: King Piccolo Saga|King Piccolo Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Piccolo Jr. Saga|Piccolo Jr. Saga]]''

I would suggest heavy protection. I reverted them to before the vandalism began, but I would highly recommend that they be protected from all new users as most of the vandalism is being done by the same sockpuppets from prior. Reverting the edits only triggers more activity from this sockpuppeteer. I would suggest a checkuser again for all the most recent accounts that have vandalised these articles and my talk page as they are all likely one and the same. Please notify me when the protection has been made. Thanks in advance. - [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]] ([[User talk:Zarbon|talk]]) 19:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback Rights ==

https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1666196&oldid=1665649 --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

== Ronald Reagan ==

Can I create a childhood section there? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:15, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:Sure, give it a try. The earliest section now on the page has its first quote dated from when he was 50 years old, so if you have enough quotes from an earlier time, feel free. But of course, if you only have a single new quote (or only a few), then you could also just add them to the "Pre-presidency" section. In any case, the recommendation is always to [[w:Wikipedia:Be bold|be bold]]. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

== Could you delete... ==

...[[User:DanielTom/EditCounterOptIn.js‎|this]]? (Thanks.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Question ==

What's the reason for moving the Unsourced information to talk page? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:All quotes on the site should be sourced for them to remain. It's become standard practice to move any unsourced quotes to a page's Talk page, pending sourcing, rather than just delete them outright. This gives other users the chance to find a source and then move it back to the page once properly sourced. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Why aren't their any barnstars around? I was planning on giving you one :) --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

== Bengali proverbs ==
<strike>What the hell</strike> was the point of removing the bengali proverbs page for being unsourced? The nature of proverbs are that they are passed down orally from generation to generation. Utterly moronic move on your part, anonymous guy. - {{unsigned|98.113.118.73}}
:As with many other pages, if there are only unsourced quotes on the page, it will be deleted. Should you or another user find sources for such quotes, the page can be recreated. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Time for closure ==

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

Time for closure?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Ah, I see you Supported. Nevermind then, I guess a different Bureaucrat will hopefully close it soon. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:37, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== Star Wars ==

Aren't you a fan of [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars&curid=830&diff=1673495&oldid=1664588 Star Wars] :D --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Sure - but I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was just cleaning up some of the disambig pages, formatting them or expanding intros where needed. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'm just trying to have fun. Not making fun of you or anything. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::No worries - I just wasn't sure if you meant I had done something wrong to the page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Merging ==

Hi, from pervious discussion :), can I merge [[Doctor Evil]] into [[Austin Powers (film series)]], it seems their is no real discussion on merging the page. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:09, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Absolutely - have at it! :-) ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}} How did I do? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Actually, the quotes should be distributed to the page for the film from which they came. NO quotes should be on the disambig page (the page you placed them on), which instead is simply a page to direct people to the appropriate film page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, I haven't looked into this page correctly. I think we should delete [[Doctor Evil]] since all the quotes on that page was on all of the films listed on the disambig page. What do you say? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:32, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, that is the way to go, if all the quotes are already on other pages. Otherwise, I would have suggested (and you can use this in the future) to place them on a talk page, awaiting sourcing to the individual films. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Oh, ok, thanks. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Eaglestorm's edits on HIMYM ==

Hi,
I noticed last time you interfered and calmed Eaglestorm down a bit. I'm sure remember the edit war we had and the block you gave both of us. Eaglestorm decided [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=How_I_Met_Your_Mother&diff=1665959&oldid=1665474 to keep one quote until issue is resolved]. I agreed with this and started [[Talk:How I Met Your Mother#Bass Player Wanted|a discussion on the talk page]]. After giving him more than a week, in which I've seen him active, editing HIMYM, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=How_I_Met_Your_Mother&diff=1669882&oldid=1669772 I restored my quote]. Since then Eaglestorm has just continued on reverting my edit, deleting the quote and claiming that the matter has not been resolved, but making no attempts to discuss on the talk page.

Would much appreciate your help with this user, as you seem to have handled him before.

Thank you,

--[[User:SuperJew|SuperJew]] ([[User talk:SuperJew|talk]]) 07:23, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== could you... ==

...temporarily add me to the [[Wikiquote:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage|AutoWikiBrowser approved users]] list so that I can run a few tests on my sandbox? Thanks ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Tony Soprano]] ==

Delete it please. Tis a useless redirect [[Special:Contributions/166.147.123.15|166.147.123.15]]
:Actually, I don't believe it is useless. Should someone wish to find quotes from this character, it is appropriate to redirect them to quotes from the show in which he appears. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::but they deleted [[Goku]] and [[Tite Kubo]] links too. Duh! [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru|Taracka]]

== Wikiproject ==

I was thinking that we should have a wikiproject where members can take a job on Wikiquote to clean up different articles. I have been doing that for the past 4 days. What do you think? I can create [[Wikiquote:Wikiproject/Cleaner uppers!]]? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:what about this project Scott? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:47, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Feel free - I've never set up any projects before, but have at it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

:::I should be more bold and stop asking if stuff like this is okay. I should just go for it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== Another suggestion ==

What do you think of adding [[John Milton]] to the "Selected pages" list of the main page? It appears to be one of Wikiquote's best articles. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:04, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} - a good suggestion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 16:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks. Sorry for the confusion, but I was actually thinking of [[Paradise Lost]] when I said it is one of WQ's best articles, and as the list of people is already quite large, perhaps even better would be to just add [[Paradise Lost]] to the list under "Literary works" instead. What do you think? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:06, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::{{done}} - I like it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 17:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Great, thanks! ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

== problematic IP ==

Could you have a look at [[Special:Contributions/93.107.165.229|this IP's contributions]]? He keeps adding the same repetitive links over and over and over again. Never listen to my warnings. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:18, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:Still vandalizing. This guy needs to be blocked for a long time. Should I take this to the Admins' noticeboard? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

==Divergent==
Hello. Earlier today, you [http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1678407 moved] [[Divergent]] to [[Divergent (novel)]] in anticipation for a future film. While I don't mind that, was it intentional to not leave a redirect? I don't see any reason not to keep that as a redirect until the new page for the movie is created. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 20:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:It was semi-intentional, as I assumed people who searched for Divergent would find the page for the novel. But I guess you're correct - a simple redirect is OK for now. Once the film is released and a page is created for it, the [[Divergent]] page should be changed to a disambig page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:: That's exactly what I had in mind. Thanks. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== Email ==

Have you gotten my email? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:I did, but I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to - we've always had periods of vandalism. Could you be more specific about which vandalism you mean? ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::What I mean is these vandals that come from Zarbon's website. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::It's been going on for several years (although I would be hard pressed to nail down a specific start time). I think Mdd presented a nice summary at the bottom of [[Wikiquote:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ongoing_vandalism_in_the_past_weeks|this post]]. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

I really would like to thank you for the work you done here, especially [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Annie+Frank&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2014&month=-1 User:Annie Frank], this username made me cry, because the name is closely related to [[Anne Frank]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

== Unprotect please? ==

I would like [[Template:Test5]] unprotected until tomorrow since I need to make a few changes: Some interwiki and maybe external links to Wikipedia and a little addition of "spice" to it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 16:53, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:{{Done}}, but please let me know when you are finished with it. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 16:56, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I am done with my additions, you may protect it now... --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 17:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

== Bot ==

I really think we should have a bot who normally adds an "unsigned" template below any user who does not sign their signature. Do you think I should open a bot? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:04, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
:hi, what happened to me? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 18:05, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
::Sorry, I was not online much of the weekend. Feel free to give it a try - I'm not as technically savvy as others, so I don't know that I could help you much in the creation of any bots, but if you've got an idea, feel free to try it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

== Stub Question ==

Does [[Arrow]] and [[Revenge (TV series)]] still count as TV Stubs they seem to have lots of quotes? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] ([[User talk:Miszatomic|talk]]) 13:18, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
:You're right - neither look like stubs to me anymore. Feel free to remove the tags. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:12, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

== Question ==

Hi UDScott, could you double check [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Vandalism_in_progress#IP_77.101.77.95 this request]. I did notice some changes have been made to quotes, which exist here since 2006, but was unable to determine, whether or not these edits are constructive? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 16:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
: I took a look and commented there. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 17:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thank you, UDScott, for introducing some sanity into this whole "pictures" affair. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== When ? ==

You seem to frame yourself as neutral in your comments at [[Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Image_discussion_.28aka_Cirt_vs._Kalki.29]].

Yet this is not borne out by history:
#You supported at [[Wikiquote:Votes of confidence/Kalki]] -- even when the user was actively ''refusing'' to be restricted to one account, which led to a [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 community imposed restriction].
#You were the only supporter at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (2nd request)]].
#You supported at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]].

You stated there were times you have not agreed with this individual at [[Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Image_discussion_.28aka_Cirt_vs._Kalki.29]].

And yet I'm not seeing when those times have been?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

== Taking a break ==

I'm going to take a break from this site to focus on other quality improvement projects.

I'm glad that some of my views on image use on this website are supported by multiple other users at Village Pump, including:

#{{user|Jmackaerospace}}
#{{user|EVula}}
#{{user|Mdd}}
#{{user|Aphorist}}
#{{user|Macspaunday}}
#{{user|Nick1372}}
#{{user|TreeRol}}

Thank you,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thanks very much ==

Thank you for your improvements to ''[[The People vs. Larry Flynt]]'', much appreciated, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[This Is the End]] ==

Content dispute?! ur protection of the paige seems more like a one-sided arguement. Unlock AND remove all that garbage on [[User:This Is the End|This Is the End]]
: By the behavior patterns, this particular vandal seems to have been working through these accounts as well: {{user|BeansGolore‎}}, {{user|AdamWalshLives}} and {{user|166.205.48.230‎}} ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::[[User:Kalki|Kalki]], you could add those vandals to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Goldenburg111/Reports/Wikiquote_Vandalism_Statics#Graph. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== 1 week Block? ==

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/This_Is_the_End - Sorry, but this should be an infinite block. It's pretty clear that this user is part of the Dragon Ball Vandals. This clearly falls into sockpuppetry, only vandalism account, and inappropriate username. Three reasons for an infinite block. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
:https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:AdamWalshLives&oldid=1691651&diff=prev. I hope you know when to use rollback or not. Here, here is a simple answer. '''Use it for pure vandalism'''. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:58, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::I ''do'' know when to use rollback, thank you very much. I also know when to properly tag a page - which you clearly did not. Merely tagging a user's talk page with an indefinitely banned label does not mean that the user is blocked. This particular user is ''not'' currently blocked. The text this user left on his talk page is nonsense of course, but I fail how it could be characterized as vandalism. Should he actually vandalize other pages, I am sure that a block would follow - but for now, that is not the case. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
:::In response to "properly tag a page", I just figured it out about the 1 week block after creating the talk page, oh well, can't delete it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, the first user is blocked for one week, but the second is not even blocked right now. Your use of the tags in ''both'' cases was incorrect. The length of the block in the first case is certainly debatable and whether or not the second user should be blocked as well is also debatable. But the point is that until a user is indefinitely blocked, the tag stating that this is so should not be used. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[Gravity (film)]] ==

Just wondering, do you normally consider each of the bullet points to be individual quotes? If so, the four quotes by Sandra Bullock and three quotes by George Clooney plus the title card have already reached the maximum allowed quotes under the Limits on Quotations policy, since Gravity's running time is 91 minutes and LOQ's max for films is five per 12 mins. If it's not infringing, can I use this quoting format when I make my own article to quote another film? If this is a way to get around the restriction by setting them to single lines per character, I'd like to know how I can do the same for future articles I would put quotes into. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 04:50, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:First the easy part: yes each of the bulleted quotes under individuals counts as a separate quote. Now, the not so easy part: LOQ is ''not'' an accepted policy - you will note that it is only in a ''proposed'' state. There have been discussions in the past regarding relaxing the standards espoused in this proposed policy (to the point of allowing twice as many - see [[Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_39#Wikiquote:_Limits_on_quotations]]). At this point, I would use it as a guide, but would not strictly enforce it. The real guideline at this point should be the quoteworthiness of any quote - if it's not memorable, don't include it just to meet an artificial limit. The only place where I feel it is correctly applied at this point is with TV show pages, where having 5 per hour long show is probably about right (although there has been discussion about increasing the limit for half hour shows to 3). Sorry for a not very definite answer, but this topic has always been fuzzy and atempts to bring clarity to it have failed. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Harry Harrison Healings... ==

I thank you for fixing the links at [[Harry Harrison]]. I just awoke a few minutes ago, well refreshed from a much needed sleep, and checked in here to find what appears to be a new incarnation of an asinine troll-vandal assaulting the project in a new guise. I believe that you will find that {{user|Madelyn Maury O'Hare}} has all the appearances of being a new disguise of someone involved in a recent spate of trolling and vandalism. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 13:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:Yes, I see - I believe you are correct. Allow me also to express my happiness at your selection of Harry Harrison for the QOD. I haven't read his works in some time, but was pleasantly reminded of them when I went to his page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:: I was very pleased to do a HH quote of the day also. He was another MAJOR inspiration to me many years ago, for many reasons, and a few of the currently "forbidden" aliases by which I sought to "infect" others with greater awareness of [[Good|GOOD]] [[Humor|HUMOUR]] were actually inspired by characters in some of his stories... [[R. A. Lafferty]] was another author in whom there is MUCH good humor, though often far more ''complex'' and intricate forms of it than most people are accustomed to. ''So it goes''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Ah, a good recommendation - I have only read a very little bit of Lafferty (although I have heard good things), but perhaps I will endeavor to find some to add to my backlog of books. Thanks! ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Oh, yes, I also wish to thank you MUCH for recently creating the page for ''[[The Rules of the Game]]'' — I thought that a very auspicious sign, quite appropriate to current affairs large and small. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::I have recently found myself watching more truly classic films - and it was a shame that this one was not yet represented on our site - truly one of the finest films ever made. And of course the irony of its title was not lost on me, given the way many things have proceeded on this site over the last months and even in the world at large. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

== Gratitude ==

{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Rainbow Barnstar.svg]]
| author = [[Dharma]] prevails.  
}}

I think I have done well at beginning the reestablishment of much of worth here in recent weeks, and feel it is more appropriate for me to begin giving open praise of others than it was in the past, where disgraceful allegations of disgraceful conduct were more easily asserted by the asinine. I have only just begun to give people various forms of appreciation which I have long felt constrained from providing. I wish to thank you for all your years of active contribution of material to this very worthy project, and was especially pleased by your recent additions of ''[[Children of Paradise]]'' and ''[[Bicycle Thieves]]''. May coming days and weeks and months and years see a growth in appreciation of your work by many. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
:Kalki, much appreciation - and I believe you are correct regarding the reestablishment of a better relationship with the community (and I am quite happy about that as well - much can be gained here by your active involvement without having to spend time engaged in conflict). Thanks! ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

== Protection 2 ==

Can you please semi protect the MediaWiki Recent Changes text? It is quite annoying to keep reminding admins here to update the box. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:What is the issue? What are you asking admins to update? ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:44, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::One was my bot request, and the second is that there is a current request for adminship. It's not up on the board. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::thanks. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I've updated the info. But to be honest, I'm not really sure how to open it up to others. Perhaps one of the other (more technically savvy) admins could help. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Unfortunately, MediaWiki messages are automatically protected by the software. What we could do to open it up to editing by normal users is ship the content off to Template:Recentchangestext by moving the page, and then transclude the template with <code><nowiki>{{Recentchangestext}}</nowiki></code> onto the MediaWiki message. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 21:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::thanks, I forgot that. I am an admin on several wikia wikis and forgot about that. But to be honest, I don't think UDScott nor any other admin agrees to this. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:TeleComNasSprVen]]: I just rejected a request for bot that started more than a year ago and has not been payed attention since. I agree to your idea. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::[[User:UDScott]], please update the mediawiki recent changes text. There are no bot requests, just declined requests that were older than a year. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 18:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
:thanks, but are you going to follow up on TeleCom's plan? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
::Not likely - I am probably the least tech savvy of the admins - I am much more focused on content. Perhaps one of the others could take it up. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 00:12, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
::: I would advise against opening it up to all users. Being the most heavily used of the system generated pages, it is just too attractive a target for vandalism. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

== Smile! ==

{{smile|Goldenburg111}}
:Sorry for being aggressive above. I just got frustrated with your rollback. That's all :-) --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:Sisterproject]] ==

Could you unprotect this for a few minutes? I would like to add the paramater title (for link titles, currently they can only be the same as to link target) and adapt interwiki templates accordingly. I'm neither a sockpuppet nor a new (Wikimedia) user, please have a look at my [[Special:CentralAuth/FDMS4|CentralAuth]]. [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} I've lowered the protection level - please let me know when you have finished with it. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}}, thank you very much. Could you do the same with [[Template:Wikipedia]]? [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
::And BTW, the sense of all this can probably be seen [[Special:Diff/1705708|here]]. [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}}, Wikipedia template adapted. Now that I've made {{template|Sisterproject}} more flexible, I will probably make more interwiki link templates use it in the future. Again, thank you very much! [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Wikivoyage

2014-04-02T19:29:31Z

FDMS4: + parameter title

{{Sisterproject |project=Wikivoyage
|image=Wikivoyage-Logo-v3-en.svg
|text=Wikivoyage has a travel guide for:
|link={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}}<noinclude>
{{documentation}}
</noinclude>

Template:Wikiversity

2014-04-02T19:28:58Z

FDMS4: + parameter title

{{Sisterproject |project=v
|image=Wikiversity-logo-Snorky.svg
|text=At Wikiversity, you can learn about:
|link={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}}<noinclude>

[[Category:Interwiki link templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]

</noinclude>

Template:Wikipediacat

2014-04-02T19:28:16Z

FDMS4: + parameter title

{{Sisterproject |project=Wikipedia
|image=Wikipedia-logo-v2-en.svg
|text=[[Wikipedia]] has related
|link=Category:{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
}}<noinclude>
[[no:Mal:Wikipediakat]]
[[it:Template:Wikipediacat]]

[[Category:Interwiki link templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]
</noinclude>

Template:Commons category

2014-04-02T19:23:27Z

FDMS4: redundant template

#REDIRECT [[Template:Commonscat]]

Template:Wikipedia

2014-04-02T19:22:17Z

FDMS4: + parameter title

{{Sisterproject |project=Wikipedia
|image=Wikipedia-logo-v2.svg
|text=[[Wikipedia]] has an article about:
|link={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
}}
<noinclude>[[Category:Interwiki link templates|Wikipedia]]

[[ar:قالب:Wikipedia]]
[[az:Şablon:Wikipedia]]
[[bg:Шаблон:Уикипедия]]
[[bs:Šablon:Wikipedia]]
[[ca:Plantilla:Viquipèdia]]
[[cs:Šablona:Wikipedie]]
[[da:Skabelon:Wikipedia]]
[[de:Vorlage:Wikipedia]]
[[el:Πρότυπο:Wikipedia]]
[[eo:Ŝablono:Vikipedio]]
[[es:Plantilla:Wikipedia]]
[[et:Mall:Vikipeedia]]
[[eu:Txantiloi:Wikipedia]]
[[fa:الگو:ویکی‌پدیا]]
[[fi:Malline:Wikipedia]]
[[gl:Modelo:Wikipedia]]
[[hr:Predložak:Wikipedija]]
[[hu:Sablon:Wikipédia]]
[[id:Templat:Wikipedia]]
[[is:Snið:Wikipedia]]
[[it:Template:Wikipedia]]
[[ja:Template:Wikipedia]]
[[ka:თარგი:Wikipedia]]
[[ko:틀:위키백과]]
[[ku:Şablon:W]]
[[la:Formula:Vicipaedia]]
[[lb:Schabloun:Wikipedia]]
[[li:Sjabloon:Wp]]
[[lt:Šablonas:Vikipedija]]
[[nl:Sjabloon:Wikipedia]]
[[no:Mal:Wikipedia]]
[[pl:Szablon:Wikipedia]]
[[pt:Predefinição:Wikipédia]]
[[ro:Format:Wikipedia]]
[[ru:Шаблон:Википедия]]
[[simple:Template:Wikipedia]]
[[sk:Šablóna:Wikipedia]]
[[sl:Predloga:Wikipedija]]
[[sq:Stampa:Wikipedia]]
[[sr:Шаблон:Википедија]]
[[sv:Mall:Wikipedia]]
[[th:แม่แบบ:วิกิพีเดีย]]
[[tr:Şablon:Vikipedi]]
[[uk:Шаблон:Wikipedia]]
[[uz:Andoza:Vikipediya]]
[[vi:Tiêu bản:Wikipedia]]
[[zh:Template:Wikipedia]]
</noinclude>

User talk:UDScott

2014-04-02T19:21:39Z

FDMS4: /* Template:Sisterproject */ G

User talk:UDScott

2014-04-02T19:20:49Z

FDMS4: /* Template:Sisterproject */ +

{| class="infobox" width="250"
|- align="center"
| [[File:Replacement filing cabinet.svg|40px|Archive]] '''Archives'''
|- align="left"
|
* [[User talk:UDScott/2005|2005 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2006|2006 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2007 part 1|2007 Archive, part 1 (Jan - Jun)]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2007 part 2|2007 Archive, part 2 (Jul - Dec)]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2008|2008 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2009|2009 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2010|2010 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2011|2011 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2012|2012 Archive]]
* [[User talk:UDScott/2013|2013 Archive]]
|}
{{talkheader}}

== Paul Blopel ==

Excuse me, could u tell me y ur just undoing great faith (not just good faith) edits of mine? [[User:The Dragon Emperor|The Dragon Emperor]] ([[User talk:The Dragon Emperor|talk]])
:I don't understand why you feel the need to add these tags. The listed quotes do provide a source and the quote listed as a caption for an image is also sourced on the page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
: A quote will never be used as a caption for an image on the page unless the quote also appears elsewhere on the page; the citation should be with that appearance. Cheers! [[User:BD2412|''BD2412'']] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 21:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

== Protection ==

I already left this message before. Can you or another admin please protect my talk page. It is being met with vandalism again and I don't want to consistently revert the gibberish.

Additionally, please protect or semi-protect the following articles as they are being met with vandalism once again:

*''[[The Sopranos: Season 1]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 2]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 3]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 4]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 5]]''
*''[[The Sopranos: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 3]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 4]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 5]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 6]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 7]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 8]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Season 9]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 1]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball GT: Season 2]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bio-Broly]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Bojack Unbound]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Broly Second Coming]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball Z: Wrath of the Dragon]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Emperor Pilaf Saga|Emperor Pilaf Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tournament Saga|Tournament Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Red Ribbon Army Saga|Red Ribbon Army Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: General Blue Saga|General Blue Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Commander Red Saga|Commander Red Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Fortuneteller Baba Saga|Fortuneteller Baba Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Tien Shinhan Saga|Tien Shinhan Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: King Piccolo Saga|King Piccolo Saga]]''
*''[[Dragon Ball: Piccolo Jr. Saga|Piccolo Jr. Saga]]''

I would suggest heavy protection. I reverted them to before the vandalism began, but I would highly recommend that they be protected from all new users as most of the vandalism is being done by the same sockpuppets from prior. Reverting the edits only triggers more activity from this sockpuppeteer. I would suggest a checkuser again for all the most recent accounts that have vandalised these articles and my talk page as they are all likely one and the same. Please notify me when the protection has been made. Thanks in advance. - [[User:Zarbon|Zarbon]] ([[User talk:Zarbon|talk]]) 19:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

== Rollback Rights ==

https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=1666196&oldid=1665649 --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

== Ronald Reagan ==

Can I create a childhood section there? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:15, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
:Sure, give it a try. The earliest section now on the page has its first quote dated from when he was 50 years old, so if you have enough quotes from an earlier time, feel free. But of course, if you only have a single new quote (or only a few), then you could also just add them to the "Pre-presidency" section. In any case, the recommendation is always to [[w:Wikipedia:Be bold|be bold]]. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

== Could you delete... ==

...[[User:DanielTom/EditCounterOptIn.js‎|this]]? (Thanks.) ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

== Question ==

What's the reason for moving the Unsourced information to talk page? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
:All quotes on the site should be sourced for them to remain. It's become standard practice to move any unsourced quotes to a page's Talk page, pending sourcing, rather than just delete them outright. This gives other users the chance to find a source and then move it back to the page once properly sourced. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
::Why aren't their any barnstars around? I was planning on giving you one :) --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

== Bengali proverbs ==
<strike>What the hell</strike> was the point of removing the bengali proverbs page for being unsourced? The nature of proverbs are that they are passed down orally from generation to generation. Utterly moronic move on your part, anonymous guy. - {{unsigned|98.113.118.73}}
:As with many other pages, if there are only unsourced quotes on the page, it will be deleted. Should you or another user find sources for such quotes, the page can be recreated. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

== Time for closure ==

*[[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]]

Been over one week.

RFA presently at 66.7 percent.

Plus additional [[Wikiquote:Requests_for_adminship/Kalki_(3rd_request)#Comments|Comments]].

Time for closure?

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
:Ah, I see you Supported. Nevermind then, I guess a different Bureaucrat will hopefully close it soon. Cheers, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:37, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

== Star Wars ==

Aren't you a fan of [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars&curid=830&diff=1673495&oldid=1664588 Star Wars] :D --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Sure - but I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was just cleaning up some of the disambig pages, formatting them or expanding intros where needed. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::I'm just trying to have fun. Not making fun of you or anything. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::No worries - I just wasn't sure if you meant I had done something wrong to the page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Merging ==

Hi, from pervious discussion :), can I merge [[Doctor Evil]] into [[Austin Powers (film series)]], it seems their is no real discussion on merging the page. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:09, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:Absolutely - have at it! :-) ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}} How did I do? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::Actually, the quotes should be distributed to the page for the film from which they came. NO quotes should be on the disambig page (the page you placed them on), which instead is simply a page to direct people to the appropriate film page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, I haven't looked into this page correctly. I think we should delete [[Doctor Evil]] since all the quotes on that page was on all of the films listed on the disambig page. What do you say? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:32, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, that is the way to go, if all the quotes are already on other pages. Otherwise, I would have suggested (and you can use this in the future) to place them on a talk page, awaiting sourcing to the individual films. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Oh, ok, thanks. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

== Eaglestorm's edits on HIMYM ==

Hi,
I noticed last time you interfered and calmed Eaglestorm down a bit. I'm sure remember the edit war we had and the block you gave both of us. Eaglestorm decided [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=How_I_Met_Your_Mother&diff=1665959&oldid=1665474 to keep one quote until issue is resolved]. I agreed with this and started [[Talk:How I Met Your Mother#Bass Player Wanted|a discussion on the talk page]]. After giving him more than a week, in which I've seen him active, editing HIMYM, [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=How_I_Met_Your_Mother&diff=1669882&oldid=1669772 I restored my quote]. Since then Eaglestorm has just continued on reverting my edit, deleting the quote and claiming that the matter has not been resolved, but making no attempts to discuss on the talk page.

Would much appreciate your help with this user, as you seem to have handled him before.

Thank you,

--[[User:SuperJew|SuperJew]] ([[User talk:SuperJew|talk]]) 07:23, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== could you... ==

...temporarily add me to the [[Wikiquote:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage|AutoWikiBrowser approved users]] list so that I can run a few tests on my sandbox? Thanks ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 18:47, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

== [[Tony Soprano]] ==

Delete it please. Tis a useless redirect [[Special:Contributions/166.147.123.15|166.147.123.15]]
:Actually, I don't believe it is useless. Should someone wish to find quotes from this character, it is appropriate to redirect them to quotes from the show in which he appears. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 14:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::but they deleted [[Goku]] and [[Tite Kubo]] links too. Duh! [[User:Tarackacarakaketaru|Taracka]]

== Wikiproject ==

I was thinking that we should have a wikiproject where members can take a job on Wikiquote to clean up different articles. I have been doing that for the past 4 days. What do you think? I can create [[Wikiquote:Wikiproject/Cleaner uppers!]]? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:what about this project Scott? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:47, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
::Feel free - I've never set up any projects before, but have at it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

:::I should be more bold and stop asking if stuff like this is okay. I should just go for it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

== Another suggestion ==

What do you think of adding [[John Milton]] to the "Selected pages" list of the main page? It appears to be one of Wikiquote's best articles. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 22:04, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} - a good suggestion. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 16:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::Thanks. Sorry for the confusion, but I was actually thinking of [[Paradise Lost]] when I said it is one of WQ's best articles, and as the list of people is already quite large, perhaps even better would be to just add [[Paradise Lost]] to the list under "Literary works" instead. What do you think? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:06, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
:::{{done}} - I like it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 17:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
::::Great, thanks! ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 17:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

== problematic IP ==

Could you have a look at [[Special:Contributions/93.107.165.229|this IP's contributions]]? He keeps adding the same repetitive links over and over and over again. Never listen to my warnings. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 15:18, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
:Still vandalizing. This guy needs to be blocked for a long time. Should I take this to the Admins' noticeboard? ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 23:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

==Divergent==
Hello. Earlier today, you [http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1678407 moved] [[Divergent]] to [[Divergent (novel)]] in anticipation for a future film. While I don't mind that, was it intentional to not leave a redirect? I don't see any reason not to keep that as a redirect until the new page for the movie is created. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 20:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:It was semi-intentional, as I assumed people who searched for Divergent would find the page for the novel. But I guess you're correct - a simple redirect is OK for now. Once the film is released and a page is created for it, the [[Divergent]] page should be changed to a disambig page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
:: That's exactly what I had in mind. Thanks. [[User:Nick1372|Nick1372]] ([[User talk:Nick1372|talk]]) 21:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

== Email ==

Have you gotten my email? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 01:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:I did, but I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to - we've always had periods of vandalism. Could you be more specific about which vandalism you mean? ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
::What I mean is these vandals that come from Zarbon's website. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
:::It's been going on for several years (although I would be hard pressed to nail down a specific start time). I think Mdd presented a nice summary at the bottom of [[Wikiquote:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ongoing_vandalism_in_the_past_weeks|this post]]. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

I really would like to thank you for the work you done here, especially [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?limit=50&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Annie+Frank&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2014&month=-1 User:Annie Frank], this username made me cry, because the name is closely related to [[Anne Frank]]. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

== Unprotect please? ==

I would like [[Template:Test5]] unprotected until tomorrow since I need to make a few changes: Some interwiki and maybe external links to Wikipedia and a little addition of "spice" to it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 16:53, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:{{Done}}, but please let me know when you are finished with it. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 16:56, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
:::I am done with my additions, you may protect it now... --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 17:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

== Bot ==

I really think we should have a bot who normally adds an "unsigned" template below any user who does not sign their signature. Do you think I should open a bot? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 22:04, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
:hi, what happened to me? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 18:05, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
::Sorry, I was not online much of the weekend. Feel free to give it a try - I'm not as technically savvy as others, so I don't know that I could help you much in the creation of any bots, but if you've got an idea, feel free to try it. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

== Stub Question ==

Does [[Arrow]] and [[Revenge (TV series)]] still count as TV Stubs they seem to have lots of quotes? [[User:Miszatomic|Miszatomic]] ([[User talk:Miszatomic|talk]]) 13:18, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
:You're right - neither look like stubs to me anymore. Feel free to remove the tags. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:12, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

== Question ==

Hi UDScott, could you double check [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Vandalism_in_progress#IP_77.101.77.95 this request]. I did notice some changes have been made to quotes, which exist here since 2006, but was unable to determine, whether or not these edits are constructive? -- [[User:Mdd|Mdd]] ([[User talk:Mdd|talk]]) 16:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
: I took a look and commented there. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 17:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

Thank you, UDScott, for introducing some sanity into this whole "pictures" affair. ~ [[User:DanielTom|DanielTom]] ([[User talk:DanielTom|talk]]) 21:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

== When ? ==

You seem to frame yourself as neutral in your comments at [[Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Image_discussion_.28aka_Cirt_vs._Kalki.29]].

Yet this is not borne out by history:
#You supported at [[Wikiquote:Votes of confidence/Kalki]] -- even when the user was actively ''refusing'' to be restricted to one account, which led to a [https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiquote:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=1202434 community imposed restriction].
#You were the only supporter at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (2nd request)]].
#You supported at [[Wikiquote:Requests for adminship/Kalki (3rd request)]].

You stated there were times you have not agreed with this individual at [[Wikiquote:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Image_discussion_.28aka_Cirt_vs._Kalki.29]].

And yet I'm not seeing when those times have been?

Thank you for your time,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

== Taking a break ==

I'm going to take a break from this site to focus on other quality improvement projects.

I'm glad that some of my views on image use on this website are supported by multiple other users at Village Pump, including:

#{{user|Jmackaerospace}}
#{{user|EVula}}
#{{user|Mdd}}
#{{user|Aphorist}}
#{{user|Macspaunday}}
#{{user|Nick1372}}
#{{user|TreeRol}}

Thank you,

-- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 04:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

== Thanks very much ==

Thank you for your improvements to ''[[The People vs. Larry Flynt]]'', much appreciated, -- '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 03:33, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[This Is the End]] ==

Content dispute?! ur protection of the paige seems more like a one-sided arguement. Unlock AND remove all that garbage on [[User:This Is the End|This Is the End]]
: By the behavior patterns, this particular vandal seems to have been working through these accounts as well: {{user|BeansGolore‎}}, {{user|AdamWalshLives}} and {{user|166.205.48.230‎}} ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 20:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::[[User:Kalki|Kalki]], you could add those vandals to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Goldenburg111/Reports/Wikiquote_Vandalism_Statics#Graph. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== 1 week Block? ==

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/This_Is_the_End - Sorry, but this should be an infinite block. It's pretty clear that this user is part of the Dragon Ball Vandals. This clearly falls into sockpuppetry, only vandalism account, and inappropriate username. Three reasons for an infinite block. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
:https://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=User:AdamWalshLives&oldid=1691651&diff=prev. I hope you know when to use rollback or not. Here, here is a simple answer. '''Use it for pure vandalism'''. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:58, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::I ''do'' know when to use rollback, thank you very much. I also know when to properly tag a page - which you clearly did not. Merely tagging a user's talk page with an indefinitely banned label does not mean that the user is blocked. This particular user is ''not'' currently blocked. The text this user left on his talk page is nonsense of course, but I fail how it could be characterized as vandalism. Should he actually vandalize other pages, I am sure that a block would follow - but for now, that is not the case. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
:::In response to "properly tag a page", I just figured it out about the 1 week block after creating the talk page, oh well, can't delete it. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
::::Yes, the first user is blocked for one week, but the second is not even blocked right now. Your use of the tags in ''both'' cases was incorrect. The length of the block in the first case is certainly debatable and whether or not the second user should be blocked as well is also debatable. But the point is that until a user is indefinitely blocked, the tag stating that this is so should not be used. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 21:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[Gravity (film)]] ==

Just wondering, do you normally consider each of the bullet points to be individual quotes? If so, the four quotes by Sandra Bullock and three quotes by George Clooney plus the title card have already reached the maximum allowed quotes under the Limits on Quotations policy, since Gravity's running time is 91 minutes and LOQ's max for films is five per 12 mins. If it's not infringing, can I use this quoting format when I make my own article to quote another film? If this is a way to get around the restriction by setting them to single lines per character, I'd like to know how I can do the same for future articles I would put quotes into. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 04:50, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
:First the easy part: yes each of the bulleted quotes under individuals counts as a separate quote. Now, the not so easy part: LOQ is ''not'' an accepted policy - you will note that it is only in a ''proposed'' state. There have been discussions in the past regarding relaxing the standards espoused in this proposed policy (to the point of allowing twice as many - see [[Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_39#Wikiquote:_Limits_on_quotations]]). At this point, I would use it as a guide, but would not strictly enforce it. The real guideline at this point should be the quoteworthiness of any quote - if it's not memorable, don't include it just to meet an artificial limit. The only place where I feel it is correctly applied at this point is with TV show pages, where having 5 per hour long show is probably about right (although there has been discussion about increasing the limit for half hour shows to 3). Sorry for a not very definite answer, but this topic has always been fuzzy and atempts to bring clarity to it have failed. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

== Harry Harrison Healings... ==

I thank you for fixing the links at [[Harry Harrison]]. I just awoke a few minutes ago, well refreshed from a much needed sleep, and checked in here to find what appears to be a new incarnation of an asinine troll-vandal assaulting the project in a new guise. I believe that you will find that {{user|Madelyn Maury O'Hare}} has all the appearances of being a new disguise of someone involved in a recent spate of trolling and vandalism. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 13:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:Yes, I see - I believe you are correct. Allow me also to express my happiness at your selection of Harry Harrison for the QOD. I haven't read his works in some time, but was pleasantly reminded of them when I went to his page. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 13:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:: I was very pleased to do a HH quote of the day also. He was another MAJOR inspiration to me many years ago, for many reasons, and a few of the currently "forbidden" aliases by which I sought to "infect" others with greater awareness of [[Good|GOOD]] [[Humor|HUMOUR]] were actually inspired by characters in some of his stories... [[R. A. Lafferty]] was another author in whom there is MUCH good humor, though often far more ''complex'' and intricate forms of it than most people are accustomed to. ''So it goes''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::Ah, a good recommendation - I have only read a very little bit of Lafferty (although I have heard good things), but perhaps I will endeavor to find some to add to my backlog of books. Thanks! ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::: Oh, yes, I also wish to thank you MUCH for recently creating the page for ''[[The Rules of the Game]]'' — I thought that a very auspicious sign, quite appropriate to current affairs large and small. ''So it goes...'' ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 15:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::I have recently found myself watching more truly classic films - and it was a shame that this one was not yet represented on our site - truly one of the finest films ever made. And of course the irony of its title was not lost on me, given the way many things have proceeded on this site over the last months and even in the world at large. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 15:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

== Gratitude ==

{{quote of the day
| quote = [[File:Rainbow Barnstar.svg]]
| author = [[Dharma]] prevails.  
}}

I think I have done well at beginning the reestablishment of much of worth here in recent weeks, and feel it is more appropriate for me to begin giving open praise of others than it was in the past, where disgraceful allegations of disgraceful conduct were more easily asserted by the asinine. I have only just begun to give people various forms of appreciation which I have long felt constrained from providing. I wish to thank you for all your years of active contribution of material to this very worthy project, and was especially pleased by your recent additions of ''[[Children of Paradise]]'' and ''[[Bicycle Thieves]]''. May coming days and weeks and months and years see a growth in appreciation of your work by many. ''[[Dharma|So]] [[Awareness|it]] [[Eternity|goes]]''[[Kenosis|…]]<big> [[Monism|⨀]][[Necessity|∴]][[Life|☥]][[Peace|☮]][[Love|♥]][[Understanding|∵]][[Om|ॐ]] [[Karma|…]]</big>''[[Blessings]]''. ~ ♞[[User:Kalki/Kalkiswords|☤]][[User:Kalki/Magic|☮]]♌[[User:Kalki|Kalki]]·[[User talk:Kalki|†]]·[[User:Kalki/index|⚓]]⊙[[User:Kalki/Chronology|☳]][[User:Kalki/Vox Box|☶]]⚡ 19:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
:Kalki, much appreciation - and I believe you are correct regarding the reestablishment of a better relationship with the community (and I am quite happy about that as well - much can be gained here by your active involvement without having to spend time engaged in conflict). Thanks! ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:42, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

== Protection 2 ==

Can you please semi protect the MediaWiki Recent Changes text? It is quite annoying to keep reminding admins here to update the box. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:What is the issue? What are you asking admins to update? ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:44, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::One was my bot request, and the second is that there is a current request for adminship. It's not up on the board. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::thanks. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 20:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I've updated the info. But to be honest, I'm not really sure how to open it up to others. Perhaps one of the other (more technically savvy) admins could help. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 20:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::Unfortunately, MediaWiki messages are automatically protected by the software. What we could do to open it up to editing by normal users is ship the content off to Template:Recentchangestext by moving the page, and then transclude the template with <code><nowiki>{{Recentchangestext}}</nowiki></code> onto the MediaWiki message. [[User:TeleComNasSprVen|TeleComNasSprVen]] ([[User talk:TeleComNasSprVen|talk]]) 21:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::thanks, I forgot that. I am an admin on several wikia wikis and forgot about that. But to be honest, I don't think UDScott nor any other admin agrees to this. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:TeleComNasSprVen]]: I just rejected a request for bot that started more than a year ago and has not been payed attention since. I agree to your idea. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 21:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
:::::::::[[User:UDScott]], please update the mediawiki recent changes text. There are no bot requests, just declined requests that were older than a year. --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 18:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::::::{{done}} ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
:thanks, but are you going to follow up on TeleCom's plan? --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
::Not likely - I am probably the least tech savvy of the admins - I am much more focused on content. Perhaps one of the others could take it up. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 00:12, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
::: I would advise against opening it up to all users. Being the most heavily used of the system generated pages, it is just too attractive a target for vandalism. ~ [[User:Ningauble|Ningauble]] ([[User talk:Ningauble|talk]]) 13:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

== Smile! ==

{{smile|Goldenburg111}}
:Sorry for being aggressive above. I just got frustrated with your rollback. That's all :-) --~~[[User:Goldenburg111|Golden]][[User talk:Goldenburg111|burg]][[Special:Contributions/Goldenburg111|111]] 19:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

== [[Template:Sisterproject]] ==

Could you unprotect this for a few minutes? I would like to add the paramater title (for link titles, currently they can only be the same as to link target) and adapt interwiki templates accordingly. I'm neither a sockpuppet nor a new (Wikimedia) user, please have a look at my [[Special:CentralAuth/FDMS4|CentralAuth]]. [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
:{{done}} I've lowered the protection level - please let me know when you have finished with it. Thanks. ~ [[User:UDScott|UDScott]] ([[User talk:UDScott|talk]]) 19:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
::{{done}}, thank you very much. Could you do the same with [[Template:Wikipedia]]? [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
::And BTW, the sense of all this can probably seen [[Special:Diff/1705708|here]]. [[User:FDMS4|FDMS4]] ([[User talk:FDMS4|talk]]) 19:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

User talk:UDScott

2014-04-02T19:19:22Z

FDMS4: /* Template:Sisterproject */ RE

Template:Commonscat

2014-04-02T19:17:57Z

FDMS4: changing to template:Sisterproject

{{Sisterproject |project=Commons
|image=Commons-logo.svg
|text=[[w:Wikimedia Commons|Wikimedia Commons]] has media related to:
|link=Category:{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
}}<noinclude>

[[Category:Interwiki link templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[ca:template:commonscat]]
[[es:template:commonscat]]
[[ta:வார்ப்புரு:Commonscat]]
[[uk:Шаблон:Commonscat]]
</noinclude>

Template:Commons

2014-04-02T19:16:22Z

FDMS4: adapting

{{Sisterproject |project=Commons
|image=Commons-logo.svg
|text=[[w:Wikimedia Commons|Wikimedia Commons]] has media related to:
|link={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
|title={{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}
}}<noinclude>

[[Category:Interwiki link templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[de:Vorlage:Sisterlinks]]
[[nl:Sjabloon:Sisterlinks]]
[[ta:வார்ப்புரு:Commons]]
</noinclude>